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Wednesday, 9th December 2009

Robert Burns: A racist, sexist drunk?

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Published Date: 05 January 2009
ROBERT Burns was a "racist, misogynist drunk" who is unfit to promote Scotland's 2009 Homecoming celebrations, a leading historian said yesterday.
The fitness of Scotland's bard to be a role model for modern Scots was called into question by Michael Fry, who said more heroic figures, such as William Wallace, Robert the Bruce or Bonnie Prince Charlie would be better able to promote Scotland's image abroad.

A series of events designed to attract visitors to Scotland kicks off on Burns Night later this month, marking the 250th anniversary of the Bard's birth, and continues until St Andrew's Day in November.

The Scottish Government hopes the Homecoming initiative will help the country weather the worst of the economic slowdown by boosting the tourist trade throughout the year.

But Mr Fry questioned whether he was an appropriate focus for the celebrations. "Burns was a drunk, misogynistic, racist philanderer," he said. "Perhaps he was not untypical of Scots, but we have to wonder whether this is the right image for the modern Scotland. By all means, let us celebrate the poetry according to its merits. But, in the same critical spirit, let us deal honestly with the man who wrote that poetry."

Describing modern Scots acting like Burns, Mr Fry said: "We could repeatedly get drunk. In this condition, the males among us could 'lay' one woman after another, following discussion of their respective merits in dirty talk with our drouthie cronies.

"Needless to say, this would be unprotected sex performed in a spirit of utter indifference to potential pregnancies, amang the rigs o'barley perhaps. Irksome consequences would be the females' own silly fault."

He said: "It is only right to mark Burns' 250th anniversary in a literary sense. But in 2009, his example, in a practical sense, could well send Scotland straight down the tubes.

"Are there not, at the very least, other heroes preferable for a period of adversity? It is difficult to see Burns as an inspiration for testing times."

Peter Westwood, director of the Robert Burns World Federation and editor of the Burns Chronicle, dismissed Mr Fry's criticism and said the poet was a good role model. "There was no way he could have produced the great work that his did during his 37 years if he was always drunk and chasing women," he said.

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "Robert Burns is an international cultural icon and one of Scotland's favourite sons. He was both a man of his time and of all time. He wouldn't have been human without flaws, and his egalitarian ideals have helped cement his universal and timeless appeal."

The Reverend Ian Galloway, convener of the Church of Scotland's Church and Society Council, said: "Rabbie Burns used his educational opportunities to the best possible effect, and was an inspiration for creativity. These are good attributes for any role model to have. All of us have human frailties and none of us are perfect."

Playwright Liz Lochhead said the poet should be celebrated for his work, not life-style. "This is complete rubbish," she said. "It's not relevant to his poetry, it's not the point. We don't look at him for a way to live our lives. We should enjoy Burns as a great poet whose work means a lot to a lot of people.

"Burns' poetry spoke about the wealth of human experience. Of course, I wouldn't look to him as a feminist role model, but he's not a role model, he's a great poet."


So is there any evidence to batter the Bard…?

• 1759: Robert Burns is born on 25 January in Alloway, Ayrshire, to a local farmer. He is the eldest of seven children and grows up working on the farm.

• 1773: Burns writes his first poem at the age of 15 about his first love, My Handsome Nell. He honours her virtue.

• 1784: At around this time, Burns meets and becomes lovers with Jean Armour (right). She will go on to bear him two sets of twins before they are married.

• 1785: His first illegitimate child, Elizabeth Paton Burns, is born to his mother's servant, Elizabeth Paton.

• 1785: Burns meets Mary Campbell (left). They become lovers and it is believed he may have married her.

• 1786: The publication of his first work, Poems – Chiefly in the Scottish Dialect, is an overnight success, putting a stop to his plans to emigrate to the West Indies. Mary Campbell also dies in this year.

• 1788: Burns marries Jean Armour.

• 1780s onwards: Burns is said to have had affairs with Peggy Chambers, Meg Cameron, Anna Park (who died bearing his child), Nancy McLehose (right), Maria Liddell, Lesley Baillee, Jessie Leward and Jenny Clow.

• 1786-96: Burns pens more than 400 popular songs, as well as some of his best known pieces such as Tam O'Shanter.

• 1796: Burns dies in Dumfries aged 37. From Scotland's population of 1.6 million, 10,000 flock to the area for his funeral.

• Burns's concept of The Rights Of Women revealed as protection, decorum and admiration:

"For Right the third, our last, our best, our dearest: That right to fluttering female hearts the nearest,

Which even the Rights of Kings, in low prostration,

Most humbly own - it is dear, dear Admiration!"


(The Rights Of Woman)

Insights into his views of women may also be gleaned from:

"Where sits our sulky, sullen dame,

Gathering her brows like gathering storm,

Nursing her wrath to keep it warm."


(Tam O'Shanter)

"What signifies the life o'man, An' 'twere na for the lasses O"

(Green Grow The Rashes, O!

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 January 2009 9:38 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Robert Burns , Homecoming
 
1

,

05/01/2009 00:21:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 05/01/2009 00:24:56
Who the hell does Michael Fry think he is to judge one of Scotland's favourite sons? Today we live in different times with different morals and lifestyles. We celebrate Burns for his incredible ability to write poetry that connects with the common man not for his ability to father weans!
3

,

05/01/2009 00:25:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Doubly-negative,

05/01/2009 00:40:46
This article reminds me of an April Fool's wind-up. What nonsense.
5

,

05/01/2009 00:48:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

05/01/2009 00:51:48
When did Michael Fry suddenly become so puritanical?
7

,

05/01/2009 00:52:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

05/01/2009 01:02:18
Is this the same Michael Fry who describes himself as a 'bon viveur'?
9

Shamus,

Glasgow 05/01/2009 01:19:29
I have never met a person that is not a racist or bigot. I did meet an Snp supporter that claimed not to be a bigot. He was Irish and thought Ian Pisley was the anti-christ or something. Strange old world.
10

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

05/01/2009 01:22:02
#9 'I have never met a person that is not a racist or bigot. '

Maybe you should move out of Govan.
11

Shamus,

Glasgow 05/01/2009 01:37:49
Rabbie Burns was a Great SCOTSMAN. Hunners of thoosands turned oot when he died. NEVER A WORD OF VIOLENCE FROM HIM. OK HE LIKED THE WUMMIN BUT WHO DISNAE. Well he never condemned anybuddie that didnae fancy wummin, unlike others! I think he and Che and Jesus were pals.
12

,

05/01/2009 01:41:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

05/01/2009 01:46:01
#12 You just said you'd never met anyone who WASN'T a bigot. Make up your mind Shamey.
14

Gorach,

Oban 05/01/2009 01:56:10
God bless Rab and Scotland.
To hell with anyone who dislikes either.
15

Gorach,

Oban 05/01/2009 01:57:45
God bless Rab and Scotland.
To hell with anyone who dislikes either.
16

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/01/2009 03:17:32
To Judge a person from the 18th Century by our standards is exceedingly unfair. I doubt that Mr. Fry could find a single person from that era, whose conduct would not be vilified by modern standards.

Most of the celebrated figures of the Scottish Enlightenment could be classed as drunkards if you used modern standards about what is an exceptable level of alcohol consumption.

As far as misogyny goes, women in the period where considered non persons under the law.

Look at the great figures of that era and you will no doubt find conduct we would with our modern sense of morality deplore.

Thomas Jefferson, considered highly progressive for his time, not only kept slaves but had sex with them.
17

hottody,

Ottawa 05/01/2009 03:42:23
Mr. Fry your name is your problem, you simply don't like Burns, your mother told you not to like Burns.
18

Mac,

Canada 05/01/2009 03:52:38
This is the same man:-

"Michael Fry, author of Wild Scots, Four Hundred Years of Highland History, has angered politicians and historians by saying that claims of mass evictions from the Highlands in the 18th and 19th centuries were greatly exaggerated and ignored the desire of people to leave their poverty-stricken homeland to improve themselves."
19

Graeme,

Guangzhou 05/01/2009 04:17:29
I think our historical ‘expert’ Mr. Fry has somewhat missed the point or does not understand the outside world.

Over the past 30 years in Asia i have annually attended a considerable number of extremely up market prestigious Burns Dinners (packed out by the people and money Scotland is trying to attract) where the fact that Burns was a racist, misogynist drunk is fully celebrated. That’s why the dinners are so well attended and loved. Thank goodness Burns was not one of these PC ‘Twee’ Poets!


20

Shuggie,

Canada 05/01/2009 04:20:42
How does Mr Fry, a self-proclaimed authority on Highland History,feel that he is competent to judge a Lowland Scot as racist? Especially one who looked forward to the day when "man to man the world over shall brithers be for a' that."
21

Roy,

05/01/2009 04:29:10
Another great Fry-up from the clearance-denier.
22

Tam O'Shante,

Durban 05/01/2009 04:37:16
It is ludicrous to comment that "Rab" is unsuitable to be an icon. Can one say that Winston Churchill was a man without blemish!? It is the impact on and lasting memories, to the "man in the street", that gives the memories that last hundreds of years.
23

donald,

glasgow 05/01/2009 04:48:16
This is the same "Historian" and failed Tory candidate, in denial of the Highland Clearances" and thinks the The so called "Union" of 1707 the greatest act to befall on Scotland. Sounds like my Labour tutors at uni.
24

Bluevoice,

Dubai, U.A.E. 05/01/2009 04:48:41
He was a poet who wrote magnificent poetry. He was also a human being with many faults that all the rest of us human beings have. He isn't being considered for a sainthood. He is famous for his poetry worldwide. He is one of the many Scots who have put Scotland on the map. Why not just leave it at that? P.C. didn't exist during his day. I think we can forgive him for any of his negative traits.
25

DesertRat,

Somewhere in the desert 05/01/2009 04:49:55
Describing modern Scots acting like Burns, Mr Fry said: "We could repeatedly get drunk. In this condition, the males among us could 'lay' one woman after another, following discussion of their respective merits in dirty talk with our drouthie cronies."

I am a Scot... I am old... And I am envious!

26

Bluevoice,

Dubai, U.A.E. 05/01/2009 04:56:05
Rabbie Burns died young!!! (o: Envy isn't so bad!
27

michael e corby,

London 05/01/2009 05:01:15
But Bonnie Prince Charlie was also fond of the bottle and had numerous mistresses. Wallace was very cruel to his enemies - not only the English but also the Scottish ones. However, both are honoured for their heroism.

Michael Fry's comments are simply old fashioned, a throwback to the Victorian era when people of achievement were expected to have led heroic lives, and their biographies expurgated and falsified . Beethoven was a crook - he sold the 9th symphony twice! Milton was very unpleasant to his wife, Turner was very mean spirited, and so on.

Burns had a colossal talent, he was also a human being with the all that entailed. Let us celebrate his genius!
28

Expat artist,

home 05/01/2009 05:05:11
In a nutshell, Michael Fry reminds me of Holy Willie's Prayer.
29

Old Rose,

Chandler, Texas, U. S. 05/01/2009 05:06:19
I think Mr. Fry might be a bit jealous of Robert Burns, because he can't accomplish what Burns accomplished. Mr. Fry probably needs to crawl back in his hole, and forget complaining against Robert Burns.
30

Aasa,

Toronto 05/01/2009 05:07:43
I hope that you folks are also finding time to celebrate Roald Dahl Day! I came across some of his short stories this holiday season, and they have kept me mesmerized for the whole week.
31

Sinead,

Tanunda 05/01/2009 05:48:13
The description could just as easily fit Charlie, who was not Scottish anyway, spoke no Scottish/English!!!
32

Texas John,

Houston 05/01/2009 06:34:59
Re: Mr. Fry and fallibilty: didn't some University in Scotland give an honorary degree to Mugabe? HE certainly wasn't a moral example.

Robbie Burns wrote great poetry, poetry that defines a culture. In that, he is Scotland's Shakespeare, and not some hirsute Neanderthal. His morals may be different than ours, but even slavery was proper even in British colonies into the 1800's. To put our political correctness on the people in our past is asinine.
33

Bibamus,

05/01/2009 06:40:08
ROBERT Burns was a "racist, misogynist drunk"

three more reasons to like him then.
34

John Cameron,

St Andrews 05/01/2009 06:55:47
Burns was a racist, misogynist, drunk - what better figure to represent Scotland. We could even hold drunken evenings in his honour and call them something like "Burns Suppers". Now there would be an idea!!
35

oder,

Scotland 05/01/2009 07:04:48
Mr Fry like most failed actors turns into a critic!but unlike Mr Fry they stick to the movie and acting profession, it was his poetry that made him so well read world wide! hard for him to accept that Burns made it at such a young age, Mr Fry is still trying with very little success!
36

Regulator,

Edinburgh 05/01/2009 07:13:14
If we scrutinise anyone from 250 years ago, they will not come up to our current high PC expectations. Burns was a "ladies man" which 30 years ago was totally acceptable behaviour. In Burns day slavery was pretty well accepted, but he did come up with;
Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

In Twa Dogs he highlighted the disparity between rich and poor. However you look at him thru todays eyes, he was a man before his time, with failings in these days. But he had a good heart and you could say that about most Scots, we have our failings, but our hearts are in the right place.
37

Donart/NZ,

NZ 05/01/2009 07:17:40
"Bonnie" prince Charlie?

Rabbie was not:

1. A resident of Italy.

2. His mother was not Polish.

3. He wisna a cross dresser.

4. Drink didny kill him.

5. He was able to speak "English" when it suited him.

Who are the progeny of the "Young Pretender"?

Who f*****g cares!

RABBIE WAS HUMAN!!!!!!!!

Sometimes a "Fryup" Burns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


38

oder,

Scotland 05/01/2009 07:25:52
31 Sinead,Tanunda

King George only spoke German and never learned English and he wasn't Scottish either, Charlie`s father was Scottish and he spoke English so what language did Charlie`s father speak to him in? check your facts!your as bad as Mr Fry.
39

Donart/NZ,

Enzed 05/01/2009 07:25:52
Rabbie burns but Walt disney
40

Donart/NZ,

NZ 05/01/2009 07:28:11
31 Was it no the wee german geordie that was responsible for Cumberland and Culloden?
41

BLM,

Helena Valley 05/01/2009 07:45:56
Mr Fry's description is remarkably similar to a fair few of my own Scot's friends, so what's his problem. I would far rather split a bottle or two with a proper Scot, than with this sanctimonious bletherer.
42

Liam,

05/01/2009 07:54:39
Fry may well be correct about the personal attributes of oor Rab. Rab was a human being, after all, and none of us are perfect. Doesn't mean his poetic output is any less worthy of attention and celebration. People can be at their most poetic and incisive after a few pints ...!
43

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 05/01/2009 07:55:12
Wow! The "Scotsman" allowing an attack on Scotland's national bard and foundation stone of Scottish prose?

Stooping so low to attack the SNP's homecoming at a time when Scotland really needs the tourism since the pound is a busted flush!

I think the description could be applied to just about any good bard such as Shakespeare, Samuel and a good few others to boot. We still celebrate thier contribution to our forward society!
44

carrottop,

Dumfries 05/01/2009 07:56:05
We cant sell Scotland with the present or the future so if we dont use the past what chance is there?
45

The Glasgow Ranger,

Edinburgh. 05/01/2009 08:05:27
Seems a fair assessment.
46

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek Downunder 05/01/2009 08:08:40
HOW DARE YOU MR FRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What have you done, written a new book or somthing and need a bit of publicity????, I have 40 people coming to my Burns night this year and we shall raise a toast to Rabbie many, many times and for you MR FRY we will raise a toast to you with the used whisky and beer, my lemon tree will have your name on it.
47

Donart/NZ,

Enzed 05/01/2009 08:12:50
41

Wis it me yer callin a racist bigot?
48

Boy Wonder,

05/01/2009 08:13:08
Is this historian Fry hae'in one o his turns
Tae hae a go at wir Rabbie Burns?
Is it the drinkin gets him goin'
Or mibbe the sexual to-in' an' fro-in'
An a racist? Whaur d'ye get this pap?
Ur ye English, Irish or Welsh, ye yap?
Jist shut yer mooth an' unsav'ry pickin'
Or ah'll be roon tae gie ye a kickin'!!!












49

South Ayrshire Sanny Hossack,

Alloways auld haunted kirk 05/01/2009 08:16:18
Aye but hes oor drunk racist sexist poet, an who has ever heard of Michael Fry or even Susan Smith?
50

Lachie the Lion,

Edinburgh 05/01/2009 08:17:54
Maybe we should cancel the Homecoming and wait a few years 'til Holy Willie's birthday and see who turns up then.
51

Donart/NZ,

Aotearoa 05/01/2009 08:18:49
Ye see yon birkie cau'd a lord
wha struts and stares and a' that
a prince can mak a belted knight
nor an ex pat panner an a' that!
52

fair scunnered,

edinburgh 05/01/2009 08:20:44
#49 well done
now we see broon getting smegheads to insult burns,remember when burns was alive,women were mere chattles,and royalty,nobility etc all treated them as sexual toys
i have heard that shakespear was like lord mandilson,well who else would make up a play about fairy,s
so lay off rab,when you can write better than him then come back and spout yer rubbish
we will waiting more than 300 years for that
53

James, Edinburgh,

05/01/2009 08:52:19
Could this be the same Michael Fry who pitched up in a highly inebriated state at a Burns Supper, quaffed his way through the haggis, neeps and tatties and then proposed the Immortal Memory by dismissing Burns in one sentence and spending the next few garbled minutes promotong his latest tome?
54

Jonesy,

Mount olympic 05/01/2009 08:57:57
Surely the fundamental question is -Who is Michael Fry? seems to me to be a by-passed academic trying top get cheap publicity like the other "intellectual" on TV a few months ago on Mary Queen of Scots. Why pander to such clowns. Anyway who is interested in Fry's views, Scotland has its national poet and a right good one too.
55

Donart/NZ,

Land of the Long White Cloud & home to the Rev.Tho 05/01/2009 08:58:55
54

I'm relieved and happy to participate in the diatribe against one friar - fair fa' his dihonest sonsie face!
He is obviously and apparently a 'puddin'

Oh wad some power the giftie gie us................

But alas poor Yorick I'm goin tae ma bed.

Alastair
56

Ross,

Athens 05/01/2009 09:05:34
I think it is not worth getting wound up about this pathetic article.

All i can say is that Fry and the people at the Scotsman must being on a 2 day bender on some very strong Acid.
57

Mallory,

Edinburgh 05/01/2009 09:07:31
So what - he wrote well.
58

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains, USA 05/01/2009 09:17:30
Hello all,

Well, well, well...yet another academic pinhead attempting to foist 21st century Politically Correct fascism on 18th century Scots.

How truly idiotic!

Posters 16 and 27 have it right: you can't honestly do what Fry has done, nor given Fry's alternatives and PC 'standards' to Burns, do those alternative personages meet the 'cut'.

Mr. Fry does what all Ivory Tower PC Dullards do: they extrapolate some theoretical fantasy onto some favorite period of history and then, in an attempt at both social an moral superiority to those of the past, foist the academic's false construct onto that period.

But only on those specific historical personages with whom Mr. Fry and those like him disagree, dislike, or wish to use as some political/cultural axe, for some personal modern gain.

It is quite obvious that Mr. Fry has not only abandoned academic standards and honesty in his personal tirade against Burns, it is readily apparent that he holds neither personal nor professional boundaries in so doing.

Were Mr. Fry to actually have been interested in honest inquiry concerning Burns, he would quite obviously NOT have included Bonny Prince Charlie at a minimum. The fact that Mr. Fry DID include Bonny Prince Charlie, is proof certain that Mr. Fry is interested neither in truth, honesty, nor the historical record.

I pity Mr. Fry's students and those poor readers who have been baited into buying his lackluster texts: they are fit only for the Loo and lining garbage bins; I wouldn't even suggest that one should insult a budgy or canary by lining the bottom of its cage with such drivel.

Mr. Fry should be ashamed of himself; however, being of the fascist Politically Correct persuasion, no one should hold their breath for a retraction/correction of Mr. Fry's article.

Cheers from the Rockies
Neanderthal75
59

Edward,

05/01/2009 09:25:30
This is yet another Labour inspired spin. Same story appears in the Times. Deary meLabour will stop at nothing to attack the SNP and the Scottish Government, so now the try the not to subtle attack on Burns using unknown 'experts'
60

The Leith Cowboy BAM BAM,

Bruxelles 05/01/2009 09:29:07
63 He is a tory who supports the nationalist cause.

This is clever spin from Michael Fry , who hopes to sell a few books. Lets face it.

Burns was certainly a philanderer and definitely dossed in quite a few places around edinburgh if the plaques are to believed.

It doesnt detract from his work, and genuises tend to be a bit "wayward".

61

The Leith Cowboy BAM BAM,

Bruxelles 05/01/2009 09:30:44
57 why does he get press ? for the simple reason that he is outspoken.

"burns was a jolly nice chap" doesnt sell newspapers or books.
62

Joe Macdelta.,

05/01/2009 09:30:57
Rabbie is remembered, Mr fry? never heard of him before, nor will I again probably.
63

ignorant townie?,

Scotland 05/01/2009 09:35:56
Well done Mr Fry...and the editor...youve managed to get over 60 online comments by 9.30am...with this pointless story.

Burns was of his time....but why he is famous is that his poetry transcends time with universal themes such as equality...wheres the bigotry in that??

So you would prefer William Wallace...a man we know almost nothing about, he could have been the biggest philanderer and bigot of his time but all weve got is a patriotic poem written 100 years later....the fact he was Sir William Wallace removes him as a peoples champion...?

Robert the Bruce...a murderer [in a church too] who had a lot of trouble deciding which side he was on...

Bonnie Prince Charlie!!...dont make me laugh....that was a civil war gathered round a particularly ineffectual spoiled aristocrat...half of Scotland wanted him hung....a fine figurehead.
64

Gogsfraejakarta,

Indonesia 05/01/2009 09:36:55
I believe one of the morals that has been missed is the fact that Rabbie looked after all his children illegitmate or not, how many people could say that today?
Mr Fry obviously blethers from where the sun don't shine
65

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 05/01/2009 09:40:56
#5 Guga: "He maybe didn't like the English, though you couldn't call that a fault,"

Nice to know that bigotry and racism are alive and well in 'the best small country in the world'.
66

Displaced Scot,

UK 05/01/2009 09:46:49
You can count Bonnie Prince Charlie out, by all accounts he was not very Bonnie, not very Scottish, and he could only speak french. There were more Scots wearing Redcoats at Culloden, than there were od Bonnie Prince Charlies side, which included many English and Irish.
67

Ananurhing,

05/01/2009 09:50:25
The same Micheal Fry who after stating that "The Clearances" didn't happen as we understand it,( they were the result of normal economic migration), then went on to say he was only playing devil's advocate by proposing an alternative academic theory.

He's employing the same tactics here. He's a self aggrandising, publicity seeking waste of space, with an over inflated opinion of himself and his influence.

Didn't he also switch from being staunchly pro union, to saying independence may be a good thing. A hefty pinch of salt with anything he says. He's a self confessed purveyor of half truths, and brings nothing to any debate other than his huge ego.
68

DMK,

Dundee 05/01/2009 09:52:00
I agree with the tenet of many of the comments here, Rabbie was a man of his time and shold be judged by those times. If we have "progressed" in many ways since his time I suggest that some of his writings can be seen as inspiring some of that progress.

However, I have to take issue with Donart/NZ post 37, why should Charles Edward Stuart's alleged "crossdressing" be an issue?

As an illustration of some of the changes seen in recent times, a statement of this type is blatantly trans-phobic and could be seen as an incitement to hatred.
69

Lee Hutchison,

Fife 05/01/2009 10:01:29
#71 well said that man :)

#69 Bigotry and racism are equally alive and well in your own fair country tweedy boy, how many BNP councilors do we have in Scotland ?
Guga was merely stating I'm sure, that the vast majority of the people of Scotland in Burns time, were no fans of the corrupt English governments that ran our affairs.....a bit like today really
70

Lee Hutchison,

Fife 05/01/2009 10:09:30
#67 If you're going to put down Scottish heroes at least be straight with your facts....
Robert Bruce did not murder John Comyn in a church....one of his men finished him off after Bruce had stabbed Comyn for betraying him to the English.
71

Phil the Flooter,

05/01/2009 10:53:23
Tweedmouth you got that right..

#5 Guga: "He maybe didn't like the English, though you couldn't call that a fault,"

Nice to know that bigotry and racism are alive and well in 'the best small country in the world'.

I get great amusement every morning by coming on to the Scotsman forums to see comments such as Gugas (predictable as they are)

You lot are so easy to wind up.... :-)


72

Dick Lynas,

Glasgow 05/01/2009 10:55:10
ROBERT Burns was a "racist, misogynist drunk" who is unfit to promote Scotland's 2009 Homecoming celebrations, a leading historian said yesterday.

How can Michael Fry be a leading historian when he forgot to include the word 'sectarian' in his description of Burns?

Mind you, I wish I had Burns's talent for describing the human condition in words that resonate everywhere in the world and down through the centuries.
73

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

05/01/2009 10:59:49
How a newspaper can call itself The Scotsman and continue to bring the country down at every opportunity is beyond me. Just change the name to North Britain News and be done with it.

What next - Oor Wullie's a cop-bothering ned? Michty me...

PS: I like my artistic "heroes" to have an edge to them. Wasn't Shakespeare a drunk and a womanizer too? Wasn't William Blake considered mad and William Wordsworth a depressive? Didn't Picasso have a huge number of mistresses?
74

Jayess,

Edinburgh 05/01/2009 11:00:34
Believe me, Mr Fry did not expect to be praised. Having modest capability in a very competitive field, all he needs and wants is to be noticed, and you have certainly given him that. Well done!
75

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

05/01/2009 11:06:38
As for Rabbie's supposed racism. Where in the article does Fry back that up? And what passed for racism in those days? After all, the UK considered showed shows like Till Death Do Us Part and the Black and White Minstrels to be entertainment not so long ago. They wouldn't get made these days, rightly so.

In any case, some people interpret some of Shakespeare's characters, eg Shylock, as racist. Couldn't see an English paper putting down one of their heroes so blatantly and pointlessly though.
76

Finlang,

Hong Kong 05/01/2009 11:08:17
#71 Ananurhing

You got it absolutely right ... same for most postings above.

Fry is inconsequential either as a historian or a commentator who can be taken seriously on Scottish issues. To describe him as "a leading historian" is a lamentable distortion.

The comment: [Burns was] "racist, misogynist drunk" is rightly rubbished by posters above. By Fry's ignorant criterion, you'd have to dismiss practically every writer, artist and musician who ever existed. It's the legacy of the work left for future generations that matters, not the private life, especially given societal mores in times long gone.

Fry doesn't do "controversial" at all well no matter how hard he tries. Burns the person is not the issue here as "a role model for modern Scots". His poetry is. It is the shining light. Unlike Fry's splutterings and his never-ending quest for academic credibility, Burns's literary legacy is timeless.



77

Dragonhead,

Dalian, China 05/01/2009 11:15:18
FRY? who the Fek is he? A nobody seeking publicity for what?
Churchill was a drunk,John F Kennedy liked the girls,so what,when was either a crime? (except DUI,rape under the influence etc)
Blair is not a drunk, Brown don't know, but with his dissolute mug, who knows.As for women, with a wife like Cherie, what do you think?
The Bard was a great man for all his human frailties.Long may he be promoted as a GREAT SCOT! In China they know who he is, he is a legend.
78

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

05/01/2009 11:28:47
Even if Burns only wrote ONE piece - Auld Lang's Syne - he should still be regarded as one of Scotland's treasures, given that this is the song traditionally sung by people around the word at the start of every new year - linked arms and all. The fact that he contributed so much more than that makes him a very fitting cultural ambassador.
79

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

05/01/2009 11:29:29
Sorry, "Auld Lang Syne" of course
80

Cassandra,

05/01/2009 11:40:02
Bonnie Prince Charlie, to promote Scots image abroad? That speaks volumes for Mr Fry's edudition and knowledge of history! Who IS he, anyway - apart from someone clearly jealous of Rabbie's lifestyle?
81

Eric D,

Renfrewhire 05/01/2009 11:40:17
If he was such a racist why would the Afro-American Maya Angelou mention him at Clintons inaugeration speech. When Fry uses such language he plays into the PC lobby's hands. I'm sure the plethora of race watchdogs and diversity awareness jobsworths will take delight and advantage that our national Bard has just been branded a sexist racist fornicator , reinforcing their unscientifically private held view that 1/3 of Scots are racist and same again homophobic.

Of course, the Africans and Middle East muslims INVENTED slavery 100 years before Burns was born, and continue that repugnant trade to this day. The real racists are those that play into and exploit our fears such as Fry and the race relations industry, the latter in particular have a vested interest in amplifying and exaggeration to justify their existence.

Burns was fundamentally a good man who never harmed anybody, but brought delight to many a Scot here and abroad and has left us a wonderful legacy.

82

Tiger Earl,

cordoba 05/01/2009 11:43:49
Mr. Fry leaves no doubts as to his Quaker ancestry.
Rabbie Burns was an example to modern youth in his poetry that accurately reflects his ideals, if not in his actual life, perhaps. Nowadays we study the personal lives of great historical figures to debunk their tenets as a way of achieving our little moment in the limelight and the result is a triumph for nihilism, which is the great threat for modern youth. Burns was a great humanitarian, egalitarian and pacifist plus showing real patriotism and putting womankind on a pedestal. He is an icon of real individualism standing against modern collectivistic bestiality.
83

,

05/01/2009 11:44:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

St Andrew 01,

05/01/2009 11:48:23
So Burns was a racist! Nothing wrong with that.
So Burns was a womaniser! In his time who wasnt?
So Burns was a drunk! I still fail to see the problem.

Perfection is something no man will ever own, we all have flaws and we all have our own opinions, what is important is that we strive to respect others.

Burns is a hero, Burns is an icon - who cares about his views on race, religion and sex, who cares if he drank more than he could handle and who the heck cares if he chased skirt?
85

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 05/01/2009 11:58:28
Well Fry, I make that about 83-2 in favour of Burns and against you as a specky, lying, ugly, Tory, turncoat Nationalist, hopeless burns supper speaker, drunk, self-publicist, rotund, hopeless, would be historian. I would pick my targets more carefully next time!
86

Stephen Cowley,

Edinburgh 05/01/2009 11:59:46
#62 I think you are wrong in assuming that Michael Fry is an academic.

#36 "In Burns day slavery was pretty well accepted..." That is not true, the slave trade was condemned by the Church of Scotland during his lifetime (both General Assembly and Synod of Glasgow and Ayr) and widely condemned in petitions to parliament.
87

Masterpiece,

05/01/2009 12:14:30
Burns is a great poet and should be accepted for his poetry and not his personal lifestyle, which was his own business.
88

Thistledhu,

05/01/2009 12:20:18
'a drunk, misogynistic, racist philanderer'
sounds like my kind of guy
89

Stewart_in_Oz,

Alexandra Hills 05/01/2009 12:21:46
Poor Mr Small. I take it that he is being critical from his position of PERFECTION. Remember the old adage that when you point the finger at someone,three fingers are pointing at you.
How many of the heroes of history were without fault? I can think of only one and he was executed.
I wonder if Mr Small will be remembered 200 years after his death like Burns is, or will he be like a damp squib, a sudden short flare, then Extinguished to be seen no more.
Not really a good position to be critical or condemnatory of anybody, far less Burns.
Such are some academics.
90

jazzmann,

leicester 05/01/2009 12:45:06
According to the PC brigade anybody who has not gone through their brainwashing techniches are classified as Rascists ,drunks Etc . So no surprise on this "headline"
91

Lianachan,

Highlands 05/01/2009 13:13:10
People who really should know better seem to be judging a historical character out of his context, and by the standards and values of *their* own times. A futile exercise.
92

ARP,

Scotland 05/01/2009 13:17:30
What an illiterate people we are that we do not celebrate David Hume, the greatest thinker to have ever written in English. Or has the Enlightenment finally been extinguished by religious fanatics, racists, factions and superstitious idiots possessed by enthusiasms?
93

Garry S,

Kennoway 05/01/2009 13:24:06
Can we please all stop!? By posting so many comments, we are legitimising these ignorant opinions stated by Fry.
Burns was a great artist, and, despite the revisionist ideas, a sensitive soul. He liked a drink, so what?; he liked the ladies, big deal?

Ignore Michael, we have bigger, and more important fish, to fry.
94

livilion,

livingston 05/01/2009 13:26:56
Thanks must be due from all Scots to our own national newspaper for its continued championing of our favourite son?
Aye right!

The fact that there is an SNP minority administration at Holyrood couldn't by any chance have anything to do with the Scotsman's repeated attempts to besmirch the 250th anniversary of the Bard and the related Homecoming events proposed by the Scottish Government?

Who would it benefit for the 2009 program to fall flat on its chorus? Exactly.


Lest we forget:
"Is there for honesty poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave - we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a' that?
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine,
A man's a man for a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that,
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that,
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquise, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's aboon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that,
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's comin yet for a' that
That man to man, the world o'er,
Shall brithers be for a' that."
95

A True Scot.,

05/01/2009 13:27:11
You cant judge the character of a person from the 16th century by todays standards for one thing they didnt have drug related problems back then and drinking didnt come with health warnings.
Rabbie Burns character assination comes from the church and is based on their own 16th century moral codes where anybody who didnt pay a tithe to the church was a heretic and lover of goats.
Fry is the kind of idiotic ignorant self proclaimed intellectual who would take historical opinion as fact simply because it has historical value. I doubt Rabbie Burns was anymore morally corrupt than your average drinking shagging punter of the time. He stands out as being extraordinary and is revered as such. I doubt William Shakespear had any claims to morality relative to Robert Burns.
96

Ananurhing,

05/01/2009 13:31:11
#98 Lianachan
"People who really should know better seem to be judging a historical character out of his context, and by the standards and values of *their* own times"

You're right. Fry is a has been who's star has fallen. Perhaps we shouldn't be so harsh on him.
97

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 05/01/2009 13:31:15
I feel that a hard working, cultural figure like Burns is just a tad more acceptable than a syphallis-ridden, drug-addicted, protection racketeer like Charles Edward Stuart.
98

greenhill,

05/01/2009 13:36:26
The real problem here is the conflation of artist and man. Burns was a great artist but a terrible man.That description would be accurate if he had written great works 1000 years ago or was still to be born and produced great poetry 1000 years from now.To say "these were the standards of the time" is just delusional.

Another example of an appauling character but great artist is Arthur Miller.Academics and intellectuals love him but he was a S**t of a man.

Nevertheless we must not lose sight of the fact such people have unique talent and produce work that should be admired.
99

livilion,

livingston 05/01/2009 13:46:12
Michael Fry(who?), said more heroic figures, such as we are taught to believe: (sir)William Wallace: loser, betrayed by his own side, condemned to a traitor's humiliation and execution. Robert the Bruce: murderer, serial loser, mind the spider? and leper, or Bonnie Prince Charlie: limp wristed fop and loser, would be better able to promote Scotland's image abroad. Missed out Mary Queen of Scots Michael, a right old sort, she got her head chopped off.

And our modern Scottish cultural icon Rabbie Burns: no more than a drunken, woman hating, racist. Seems to be a theme appearing.

You'd be forgiven I'm sure, for thinking a country that looked up to such figures would be unfit to be nation to take its place amongst the world's civilised community of nations. Or is that the idea?
100

Ex gourock boy,

Shrewsbury PA USA 05/01/2009 13:51:34
I rather doubt Burns had ever seen a black person. So calling him a racist Mr Fry probably means he may have hated the English. A drunk! Well I can think of a few million other Scots that are or were drunks, as were half of England including the royalty of the times. A womanizer? Maybe! but he wasn't a poofter, which seems to be accepted by the dogooders of today but still despised by the majority.
Like Rab C we love him with all his faults
101

Draconion,

Musselburgh 05/01/2009 13:52:38
Michael Fry "a leading historian" ; ma @rse he is. If he was he would know the folly of judging the past with the attitudes of today.

A little research (isn't that what historians do?) by this "leading historian" would reveal that apart from a few occasions, Burns was very careful in his drinking.

Although he admitted to being a fornicator he did acknowledge all his children, hardly the attitude of a misogynist.

Where did the racist slur come from?

Could it be that the real problem is that Mr. Fry is a fat, ugly, ignorant, anti-Scots piece of Tory sharn?
102

greenhill,

05/01/2009 13:56:36
Re livilion,livingston 05/01/2009 13:46:12

You need to get real.Just about every nation in the World goes in for self delusion when it comes celebrating "great men"(sometimes women).

Scotland is no execption but we could do worse:Ghenghis Khan-a man who many regard to be more evil than Hitler- is still celebrated in Mongolia.


103

greenhill,

05/01/2009 14:00:37
RE Draconion,Musselburgh 05/01/2009 13:52:38 .

You come across as a relativist pin head. Slavery has always been wrong and will always be wrong.
104

livilion,

livingston 05/01/2009 14:02:21
"How foolish are mankind to look for perfection In any poor changeling under the sun!
By nature or habit, or want of reflection, To vices and folly we heedlessly run.

The man who is modest and kind in his nature, And open and cheerful in every degree, Who feels for the woes of his fellow creature, Though subject to failings is dear unto me."
The Forest Minstrel (1810)

James Hogg the Ettrick Shepherd, for me, describes Robert Burns to a tee.
105

lulach mac gille coemgain,

05/01/2009 14:05:43
Why dae we no’ just celibrate the occupation o Afghanistan instead ? or maybee the fun credit crunch ? Or how aboot the Great Elected ’Scottish’ Prime Meenister o Britain Gordon Broon

Nah - Rabbie Burns is a better choice for my kidz - poet, drunk, womanizer or no’ it’s like near every man in Scotland
106

St Andrew 01,

05/01/2009 14:10:36
Racist, womanising drunkard! In his time that was acceptable - heck nowadays our governments pay people money for nothing to behave in this manner. At least Burns had a job, earned money and did wonders for Scotland.
107

greenhill,

05/01/2009 14:14:12
RE livilion,livingston 05/01/2009 14:02:21


A man who is prepared to work as a slaver does not have genuine humanity.However such a man can produce poetry full of empathy for humanity.

Do not be so foolish as to conflate the man with his art. The Spanish do the same with Segovia the great classical guitarist.He was a supreme artist but also a facist. When I say facist I mean politicaly and personaly. However his musicianship was supreme.

When we have a triple conflation of artist,man and national pride then people are happy to fool themselves.This is a universal flaw not unique to Scotland.
108

Bags packed,

UK 05/01/2009 14:21:32
Mr Fry, I guess your comments on Burns were designed to earn you a few bob and some attention in the media. Good Luck to you. Enjoy spending it. You may even have launched a new career for yourself. We all know that plenty of establishment figures before you have also dined out on the efforts of Burns. The 'hing is tho' pal, you'll never be as loved as him!
109

livilion,

livingston 05/01/2009 14:26:41
#109 greenhill

Get real? Why is it that of all the millenia of Scotland's culture and history the only heros we are taught about invariably carry the post script: these were terrible people?

Robert Burns spent a lot of time in pubs drinking: like duh, that's what country folk tend to do when they're not working particularly when tv hasn't yet been invented. It doesn't make you 'a drunk'. I have never heard of Burns foul of the law for drunkenness.

Misogyny: anyone familiar with the words of Ae Fond Kiss would not recognise this in Burns.
So he was a ladies man? Before film stars and teenage popstars were invented an attractive, intelligent and charismatic poet might have had no lack of attention from the girls.
If he succumed to temptation does that not just describe an ordinary man's weakness rather than a woman hater? He honoured his responsibilities to all of his children.

Racist: against who, what's the evidence?
The man wrote "It's comin yet for a' that
That man to man, the world o'er,
Shall brithers be for a' that".
110

RSBuff,

The US of A 05/01/2009 14:34:47
I'd have gone drinkin' and wenchin' with the man. I bet he was awesome with the 18th century's version of karaoke!
111

greenhill,

05/01/2009 14:40:01
RE livilion,livingston 05/01/2009 14:26:41 "Get real? Why is it that of all the millenia of Scotland's culture and history the only heros we are taught about invariably carry the post script: these were terrible people?":


Your question is presumptious:I do not accept your assumption .The problem is not uniquely Scottish : if you had read any of my posts you would understand that.

Celebrate the art not the man. Another example is Harold Pinter who recently died. He paid out of his own pocket towards the defence costs of Slobodan Milosevic for his war crime trial.However Pinter was a great artist.

P.S. someone who is willing to work as a slaver is a racist to say the least.
112

Jim Stevenson,

USA 05/01/2009 14:40:06
Jacqueline Hyde got it right (Charlie was also a loser), and it certainly brings into question the alternative choices proposed by Mike Fry. For sure Wallace and Bruce were true heroes but that was 700 years ago. If Fry had any imagination at all he would have at least promoted more contemporary candidates such as Chris Hoy, Billy McNeill or Jim Baxter hmmmm! or how about James Clerk Maxwell or Alexander Fleming. When all is said and done Robert Burns sounds just fine to me.
113

greenhill,

05/01/2009 14:48:45
RE: Jim Stevenson,USA 05/01/2009 14:40:06

Ha! Wallace and Bruce were maniac gangsters.
114

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

05/01/2009 14:58:01
Considering people threw their jobbies out the window in Rabbie's day, I think judging someone by today's standards is a little barmy.
115

Maryann,

05/01/2009 15:04:58
*Please enter your comment*
116

greenhill,

05/01/2009 15:05:39
RE : GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,05/01/2009 14:58:01

What a stupid post.It seems you have thrown your brains out of the window.

Just as slavery has always been wrong and always will be wrong we will always have great artists who are appauling human beings.In addition we will always have numbskulls who conflate artistry with decency.
117

Maryann,

05/01/2009 15:06:16
So what's new. Sounds like a typical SNP suppporter.
118

AJ Fife,

05/01/2009 15:06:29
This Fry fellow would appear to be an enemy of all decent minded Scots.

Surely an appropriate way to deal with such undesirables, would be for the Scottish Govt to issue a fatwa thingy!

119

Truely English,

05/01/2009 15:10:40
Robert Burns is a great icon not only for Scotland but also for Britain. He was born at height of the British Empire and would have considered issues such as slavery in the USA and the West Indies as many Scots did at this time as a worthwhile profession.
This is the main reason for so many West Indians having Scottish surnames to this day. Lots of Black West Indians are proud of their connection with Scotland.

Once again, we all have to thank both the British Empire and the high number of Scots who promoted Robert Burns and the English language and culture for the celebration of Burns Suppers throughout the world.

120

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 05/01/2009 15:10:40
Robert Burns had the same human failings as many other members of the human race?

Some of the great and good like Horatio Nelson, Arthur Wellesley, Florence Nightingale, William Pitt (the Younger), David Lloyd George, FDR, JFK, et al, had feet of clay. Just like Burns, history has bared all their racist, misogynist, womanising, drunken, deplorable, behaviour.

Many of us lesser mortals are no different.

121

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 15:23:14
We suspect that Walter Scott was involved in the first official character assassination attempt on the late Mr Burns. Let bygones be bygones. But for Mr Fry to claim that Burns was a racist! and further a drunken misogynist is taking tabloid historianism where it should not go. Like onto the pages of "The Scotsman".
122

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

05/01/2009 15:24:22
#123 Chill out - it was an example to illustrate how the environment in which people live, form opinions and develop as people has changed somewhat since Burns day. I haven't seen a shred of evidence on here to suggest Rabbie Burns was a racist by 18th century or today's standards. Considering that and the fact that he's responsible for the song that brings people around the world together at midnight on New Year's Eve, I'm not sure why we should be ashamed of him any more than we should be ashamed of countless historical people - other artists and poets, politicians, religious leaders, members of the royal family and so on.
123

John6,

Calgary 05/01/2009 15:27:12
Michael Who??
124

Scottisheart,

Colborne 05/01/2009 15:28:39
#129 - I thought your comment (#121) was spot on!

125

zigzag,

Canada 05/01/2009 15:39:50
"...10,000 flock to the area for his funeral"

How many do you think will FLOCK to your funeral when you die Mr Fry?
126

greenhill,

05/01/2009 15:47:02
RE GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,05/01/2009 15:24:22

Your relativism is the height of stupidity.He was a racist by timeless universal norms as well as his own artistic standards.

The shame lies in the stupidity of people from all over the World and throughout history who conflate artistry with personal human decency and national pride.

To take his poetry and assume that he was a wonderfull person, then reckon that shows Scotland to be equally special is laughable.Nevertheless such stupidity is not unique to this nation.We should quite simply regard him as a great author.
127

Scotster Jason,

Edinburgh 05/01/2009 15:48:37
Saw this feature mentioned on Scotster.com - but come on, it's just courting controversy. Burns lived in the late 1700s: I should imagine there was lots of drunken behaviour going on and many people will have had opinions that by today's standards would be abhorrent. Long live the memory of Robert Burns!
128

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 15:52:51
Burns lived and worked in a divided country. He was particulary non-racist in supporting foreigners called Gaels in his polemical poetry (when this was still semi-legal). He was the voice of the common people against over-bearing aristocracy, church, and all their lawyers and flunkeymen. That's why he's translated into every language.

The prospects of the scottish tenant farmer are little better than in Burns' time. What has changed?
129

Porky,

West Midlands 05/01/2009 15:59:22
#118 Greenhill
"P.S. someone who is willing to work as a slaver is a racist to say the least."
Even Blacks who enslave other blacks?
Talk sense - slavery might be evil but in the non-PC real world racist and evil are not interchangeable

PS Dont' try to answer my question, its a paradox because
"someone ... work as a slaver is a racist"
BUT
by PC definition blacks cannot be racist
Discuss

130

,

05/01/2009 16:11:41
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Reason:
131

Draconion,

Musselburgh 05/01/2009 16:13:04
#120 greenhill

"Slavery has always been wrong and will always be wrong."

No kiddin? Even a relativist pin-head like me understands that. The fact that a poor white man had to consider an occupation as a slaver due to the
prevailing political and economic conditions of a past age doesn't make him a racist. The words he uses in his poem "The Slave's Lament" suggest exactly the opposite.

I problem I have with your drivel is this - are you acting thick for the sake of argument, or are you just plain stupid.

One thing that's very clear from most of the anti-Scottish posts in this discussion is that few of you know much about Scots history and far, far less about Burns.

Maybe if you read more.....?

132

greenhill,

05/01/2009 16:13:43
Re Porky,West Midlands 05/01/2009 15:59:22 . I will answer your good question.

He was prepared to be slaver at a time and a place where slavery was justified on racial grounds, he was not a stupid man and there was an ongoing debate in his time.

In the case of blacks enslaving blacks racism can be a motive. Racism is not just about colour.We can see this in modern day Africa.
133

Glenesk ,

Little Rock AR USA 05/01/2009 16:14:03
Why would the Sotsman even print such rubbish? Just because Mr. Michael Fry says it, dow not make it true.
Who IS he anyway?
134

Glenesk ,

Little Rock USA 05/01/2009 16:15:31
Sorry - typing error. Should read "just because Mr. Michael Fry says it does not make it true".
135

greenhill,

05/01/2009 16:18:09
RE Draconion,Musselburgh 05/01/2009 16:13:04

Your whole post reeks of moral cowardice and evasion.

Most laughable of all is this comment:

"One thing that's very clear from most of the anti-Scottish posts in this discussion is that few of you know much about Scots history and far, far less about Burns"

Yep I can see where you are coming from.

"Anti-Scottish" HA!
136

greenhill,

05/01/2009 16:22:52
RE Waspy100,05/01/2009 16:14:47

The most incredible aspect of his argument is that Wallace,Bruce and Bonnie Prince Charlie should be regarded as heros.

Burns was never as bad as any of them.
137

greenhill,

05/01/2009 16:36:49
RE Waspy100,05/01/2009 16:32:01

Thanks for that. I still do not see him as being as bad as them.

Many foolish people admire Wallace and Bruce. Charlie Chaplin admired Stalin but I still regard Chaplin as a brilliant man and not evil.However Chaplin was a fool in his political judgement.
138

Tris,

05/01/2009 16:47:41

Has Mr Fry considered the morality of some of the alternatives he puts up?

What a muppet.

139

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 16:49:20
Wallace and Bruce were heroes. BPC was nowhere near them.

Beyond putting your own life on the line when it mattered, did not Wallace and Bruce organise the defence of the Scottish people? That we had a certain way of LIFE, difficult to explain or quantify, that necessitated giving up every privilege and luxury. As a man had to see it.

Or what makes a hero?
140

greenhill,

05/01/2009 16:51:47
RE Yok Finney,Ross-shire 05/01/2009 16:49:20

You fool. They were complete and utter gangsters defending their own turf.
141

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 16:59:33
No I don't think so. The shiltroms that defeated Edward II's mounted mercenaries showed that us peasants wouldn't be ridden down. (not just a scottish thing this - see Europe).

It's not merely part of history.

Can you consider the Vietnam war?
142

Western Gael,

Colorado Springs 05/01/2009 17:01:43
How gratifying it is to read so many posts from which it is clear that Mr. Fry is hoist on his own petard. It is not evident to me why Robert Burns should be considered more of a racist, misogynist drunk that Wallace, the Bruce, or Charlie? Lighten up, man – that went with the times. Few historical persons of note come off well if judged by modern cultural standards. I would relish being able to know how well Mr. Fry does when he is reviewed by whatever peck sniffs are around in 2409.
143

,

05/01/2009 17:02:32
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Reason:
144

greenhill,

05/01/2009 17:12:39
RE Western Gael,Colorado Springs 05/01/2009 17:01:43


"Few historical persons of note come off well if judged by modern cultural standards."

Oh dear another relativist. You people do not posess a moral compass.

The fact is that many historical figures do not come off well by universal timeless moral standards.


145

greenhill,

05/01/2009 17:17:06
RE Yok Finney,Ross-shire 05/01/2009 16:59:33


"Can you consider the Vietnam war?"

HA! Evil Communism being opposed by evil methods. Bad v bad same old story.
146

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 17:24:24
Many people did leave the Highlands and Islands of their own volition. But clearances did take place, and fertile straths - that were created so by the people - became mere sheeps runs. Sheep in large numbers are profitable but very much agricultural strip mining.

This is where I don't like Mr Fry and his fictions of history.

People, and leaders, of the past did have greater moral authority than many of this present day. How do we see General Patton? It's like he was (or is!) a presence (rather than hero) and all our current day generals look very poor (and compromised) in comparison. He didn't drop cluster bombs on German civilians.
147

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/01/2009 17:33:04
Michael Fry is always good for a laugh.

9 ''I never met a person who was not a racist or a bigot'' stop looking in the mirror, dear.
148

greenhill,

05/01/2009 17:39:12
I am off to get pissed. However I will round off by by saying that Michael Fry is a walloper without a clue. He puts forward a weak argument that is easily knocked down.Never forget the fact that Burns was a great artist.
149

OmahaSeamus,

Omaha, USA 05/01/2009 17:50:00
You cannot judge 18th century men by 21st century standards.

We have people in the USA who downplay our great 18th century leaders because they owned slaves.
In 18th century America you needed wealth for an education. Wealth in Virginia was based on slave labor.

Maybe Burns wasn't virtuous. I don't care.
He is a great man respected all over the world.
150

Billy Boy,

Sherman Oaks 05/01/2009 17:55:36
Odd he should say that, someone told me that Ethelred the Unready was the same and he couldn't even write!
151

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 17:57:25
Anyone else get the impression that had the Homecoming year featured any of his suggestions (Bruce, Wallace or Charlie) Fry would be suggesting Burns was more appropriate as it was the 250th anniversary of his birth?

A man of peace as opposed to men of war.

Anyway, there is a blue plaque halfway up the wall of a building in the High Street of Falkirk which states that Burns slept there.

Now, that takes some doing.

Btw. Samuel Pepyss used to drink pints of port of an evening.
152

greenhill,

05/01/2009 17:57:37
RE OmahaSeamus,Omaha, USA 05/01/2009 17:50:00

Well I had one last look before going off to the pub and I have to say you are yet another relativist fool.

We can judge 18th century values by universal timeless standards. Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite full stop.

Shame on you.
153

Meggers,

Madison, CT 05/01/2009 18:00:06
What kind of Scot is Fry? My parents were both born in Scotland. Mom from Ayr and Dad from Dunfermline. For goodness sakes I was "reared" on Burns and I am grafeful for that. I was brought up to be very proud of my hereitage and most certainly of Robbie Burns. My dad would often quote his poems/writings and my mother, being of the same town, absolutely delighted in that fact. Get a life Mr. Fry; or as we say here in the States, go fry ice! In addition, my son-in-law, Jamaican is married to my "pure white" daughter and ....... their last name is McKenzie!
154

Western Gael,

05/01/2009 18:03:46
Greenhill 155 --

Not so fast with that keyboard. My comment on modern moral standards was descriptive of the rot that infects contemporary society. If you know your Cicero, you will find me closely aligned with his plaint "O tempora, o mores." Now, go find a good Latin/English dictionary.
155

Truely English,

05/01/2009 18:12:20
Robert Burns poetry stands up there with the best English poets and therefore we should all be proud that such a British poet is celebrated throughout the
English-speaking world.
156

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 18:14:45
I do not like my next door neighbour. She is Scottish.

Does that make me a misogynist? If my next door neighbour was male and English would that make me a homophobic racist?

Why should I be told who to like?

I get the impression that Fry is a dexter mammary gland. Too much academia is not good for anyone.
157

JenJen,

05/01/2009 18:29:53
#126 "This is the main reason for so many West Indians having Scottish surnames to this day. Lots of Black West Indians are proud of their connection with Scotland."

I think you should go and read up on that horrible and shameful episode in Scots history before you make such silly, embarrassing statements.
158

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 05/01/2009 18:43:44
I have great doubts that a drunken misogynist could ever have hit it off with so many women. It is obvious that women fell for Burns as they fell for Byron. I'm sure he was a great charmer with some pretty lethal chat-up lines.
159

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 18:44:26
Wha's no been tae bed afore
Wi mony a sultry dame
An woken up for a stirrup cup
Tae see her jist the same.
160

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 18:55:47
That was before you could roll'r a wee cig and be companionable. When this was legal.

Though I'm too old for this now.

What? smoking? sex? drinking? driving?
161

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 19:05:43
Oh, Dochin Doris, Dochin Doris
My ane true luv
I soothe mine hairy pow
Lest I should see thee as ye are
As morning light shall grow
162

radge dug,

05/01/2009 19:05:55
Michael Fry is a loner and attention seeker. An overgrown private schoolboy who revels in being contrarian.

So, Burns wasn't perfect. So what? I don't like all his stuff and don't know lots but he had more talent and relevant views that Fry does.
163

Robert Burns,

Ocean Beach, San Diego, California 05/01/2009 19:06:37
Och, what extremist comment! I've never heard the contention of racist before. The contention of drunkenness is overblown. The contention of misogynist is defied by his 3 marriages (2 to Jean Armour interspersed with one to Mary/Margaret Campbell) and outstanding loyalty to all of his children "legitimate" and "illegitimate". We must remember that this great man burned himself out to death at age 37 accomplishing far more in life (women, children, poetry, and song (far more so than in poetry) than most mortal do in twice the time.
164

radge dug,

05/01/2009 19:07:15
Maybe Fry was really talking about Phil 'the Greek' Duke of Edinburgh? Or himself? Maybe not, he looks like too much of a deviant to womanise.
165

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 19:19:16
Woken up for a stirrup cup is more poetic than taking a tin o McEwans out of the fridge.

These things happen. For rhyme and reasons.

166

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 19:21:27
For thou art far fae sonsie face
But monie a mile wad I try
Tae see thee ane mair time agin
When I drink the tavern dry.
167

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 05/01/2009 19:22:12
After 180 posts, isn't it time someone managed to think of something to support Mr Fry's contention?

Don't look at me - I said after 180 posts! (to be on the safe side).
168

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 19:35:18
Jacqueline Hyde@179.

I can think of something to support Mr Fry's contention - his ego.
169

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 19:37:07
I can't see how Burns was anyway racist. He took a drink now and again. He liked women and respected them too.

We're getting into the flimsies here. Of contentions.

Nope, I can't think of anything good to say 'bout M Fry.
170

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 19:44:38
Quite agree, Yok Finney 181.

If anyone wants to try and tar someone with something they compile a dossier like AMtwa.

Fry has nothing to say and makes a living out of it.
171

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/01/2009 19:59:39
It certainly has been an eye-opening learning lesson for me to glean the 168 postings (so far) about Robbie Burns and his "failings" and poetic attributes and also the fierce opinions on Michael Fry.

Up to now I had not heard of him and wonder if he is a renowned, respected historian, "leading historian" or just an opportunistic hack who is getting a lot of free publicity out of this newsitem and maybe a sale or two.

Robbie Burns was an artist of the literary kind. It is common knowledge that writers have a tendency to be dipsomaniacs and lead irregular lives of dissipation and excesses of all kinds. . I give you a short list:

Truman Capote, F.Scott Fitzgerald, Dorothy Parker, Jack Kerouac, Lord Byron, F. Somerset Maugham, Harold Pinter, Eugene O'Neill, Andre Gide, Arthur Rimbaud, Ernest Hemingway, Anne Rice, Timothy Findlay, Philip Roth, Carol Shields, Paul Scott, John Betjeman, W.H. Auden, Evelyn Waugh, Martin Amis, D.H. Lawrence, Frederic Rolfe...

Many will disagree with this list but it is a personal one and judge on those meagre merits only.

This thread is a "keeper" and demonstrates that Robbie Burns is as contentious as ever.

#49 Boy Wonder

Pleasing poem. I enjoyed it. You certainly do have "the gift" and the literary muse has blessed you.
172

oder,

Scotland 05/01/2009 20:03:56
165 Meggers,Madison, CT 05/01/2009 18:00:06

What kind of Scot is Fry?

small fish! not worth very much!
173

,

05/01/2009 20:09:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
174

TREV,

Poland 05/01/2009 20:24:48
#184

"small fish! not worth very much!"

Does that make him Small Fry?
175

Proud to have Scots blood,

Brooklyn, N.Y. 05/01/2009 20:48:21
Give it up and get a life Mr. Fry.......Robert Burns lived in a different time with different views....
As for the fooling around with no protection and having
bairns without benefit of clergy, it seems to me
there has been a return to that.
176

Observer,,

05/01/2009 20:51:41
183 Michael Fry is an ''academic'' wind up merchant. Google him, you will get a good laugh. The only thing that amazes me is that people respond to him.
177

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 20:54:40
-- Does that make him Small Fry?

Deep Fry he was called being of the corpulent gentlemen.

To promote a unionist and conservative (tory) view of scottish history would be a minority position. But worth hearing if he could write as a serious historian.
178

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 21:01:50
New for the Homecoming.

Rabbie Burns postcards

Wish You Had Been Here?
179

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/01/2009 21:03:15
Fry is parr for the course.
180

Scotian,

Isle Royal 05/01/2009 21:17:35
"See the sun o'erhangs yon moors
Outspreading, far and wide.
Where hundreds labour to support
A haughty lordlings pride.
Ive seen that weary winter sun
Twice forty times return.
And every time has added proof
That man was made to mourn.
<><><><><>
"Liberty's a glorious feast,
Courts for cowards were erected,
Churches built to please the priests.
<><><><><>
" An honest man's the noblest work of God.
<><><><>
Mr Fry seems to have missed the facts that Burns was a 'fellow traveler', an anarchist and atheistic. Jings!

I think Rabbie was a man of profound good sense, and loved far & wide; something that Fry would not easily recognise.

I saw a quote the other day on a Scottish page which suggested 'gwa an bile yer heid'. Maybe the treatment Fry needs?

181

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 05/01/2009 21:30:36
As a man, Robbie holds his head up better than most of us. He wrote great poetry too.
182

jd56,

hartlip 05/01/2009 23:13:19
Rubbish, perhaps Mr Fry should ask Eddy Reeder if she thinks that Burns was a misogynist?
183

harry lewes de,

05/01/2009 23:21:05
FRY-UP Fry!Q!!!!
184

A.W.,

TEXAS 05/01/2009 23:32:24
What kind of Whisky did he drink??
185

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 06/01/2009 00:19:20
The good stuff. Though likely whisky was not drunk very often. Strong beer was more the tipple at farmers' meets.
Alot of wine went doon Dunfries thrapples. Thereagain Burns wasn't a heavy player.
186

livilion,

livingston 06/01/2009 02:07:31
#114 greenhill
Sorry to take so long to come back- usual issue with the server...

The slave issue is a red herring.
In 1786 when Rabbie was expecting to flee to Jamaica the church and Establishment owned as many slaves as anyone, there's nothing in the bible against it and many clerics used God's word to justify it.

Abolition of slavery in this country did not happen until 1833, over three decades after Burns had died. The freeing of the Bishop of Exeter's 665 slaves resulted in the good bishop receiving £12,700 in compensation from Whitehall.


In 1792 Burns penned 'The Slave's Lament' which gives an insight to his developing attitude to the then centuries old slave industry. This at a time when to speak out in Scotland risked the wrath of the martial law still running here following the '45.

Bear in context also, that famous champion for emancipation of the slave, Abraham Lincoln, himself was in fact a slave owner long after the ending of the British slave trade.

Burns by contrast never bought, traded or commanded a slave in his life, and only considered moving to Jamaica to escape grinding poverty himself, and the wrath of James Armour.

Instead of accepting the iniquity himself, he was in the vangard of those who actually spoke to the inhumanity of slavery.
Who was it who said: when the facts change, that's when I change my opinion.

You ought to be as proud of him as the rest of us.

Just a thought: if in 40-50 years or so militant vegans are elected to No10 and outlaw the butchering of animals for food, will we then all be re-classified in retrospect as accomplices to murder?
187

livilion,

livingston 06/01/2009 02:19:52
#146 greenhill,

Sorry, just catching up with the thread when I got to this contribution.
Sorry I wasted my time taking your trolling seriously.

Please accept a stern look of disapproval.
188

livilion,

livingston 06/01/2009 02:22:41
196 A.W.,TEXAS
I think at the Masons and the Batchelors Club they drank Haufs or Wee Goldies.
189

Porky,

West Midlands 06/01/2009 13:40:39
Thanks greenhill
How did we ever manage without "universal timeless standards" which seem to allow no free thought, free speech or free opinions which disagree with the liberal fascist line.
Don't expect the "timeless" to last - the worms are already turning and we shall soon go back to real standards of decency and honesty - consigning PC, liberalism and multiculturalism to the dustbin of history along with all the other fools who knew they were RIGHT - or do you think Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler et. al. knew they were naughty but kept going anyway. Only simpletons, mommy's boys and madmen are ever absolutely certain that they are always right.
"Racist" is fast becoming as dated as "fascist hyena" as a term of abuse for anyone who doesn't accept the party line.
Do us all a favour and follow the advice in the hymn "There is greenhill far away".
190

Seare,

Ayrshire 06/01/2009 15:09:11
Someone has already stated that RB and other Scots living in rural areas knew very little about the true slave trade in the early 1780's. In fact this was around the time that James Boswell wrote a piece telling of how lucky slaves were to be taken from there homes and brought into civilisation. Opinions were just starting to change at that time.
William Wilberforce (1759–1833) a leader of the movement to abolish the slave trade, became the independent Member of Parliament for Yorkshire (1784–1812). He began to read widely on the subject of slavery, and met with the Testonites at Middleton’s home at Teston in the early winter of 1786–87.
In 1787 the Society for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was founded.

Bennet Langton, a Lincolnshire landowner held a dinner on 13 March 1787; guests included Wilberforce and Clarkson, Charles Middleton, Sir Joshua Reynolds, William Windham, MP, James Boswell and Isaac Hawkins Browne, MP. By the end of the evening, Wilberforce had agreed in general terms that he would bring forward the abolition of the slave trade in Parliament, "provided that no person more proper could be found"
Check out wikipedia pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce#Conversion

Burns opinions of 1786 need to be looked at more closely.
Remember, he had just published the First Edition.

Get behind the Homecoming.
191

Partan,

Fife 06/01/2009 15:18:47
Re. Burns and slavery (& racism?)
From 1792, The Slave's Lament.

It was in sweet Senegal that my foes did me enthral,
For the lands of Virginia,-ginia, O:
Torn from that lovely shore, and must never see it more;
And alas! I am weary, weary O:
Torn from that lovely shore, and must never see it more;
And alas! I am weary, weary O.

All on that charming coast is no bitter snow and frost,
Like the lands of Virginia,-ginia, O:
There streams for ever flow, and there flowers for ever blow,
And alas! I am weary, weary O:
There streams for ever flow, and there flowers for ever blow,
And alas! I am weary, weary O:

The burden I must bear, while the cruel scourge I fear,
In the lands of Virginia,-ginia, O;
And I think on friends most dear, with the bitter, bitter tear,
And alas! I am weary, weary O:
And I think on friends most dear, with the bitter, bitter tear,
And alas! I am weary, weary O:
192

livilion,

livingston 06/01/2009 15:24:06
192 Scotian,Isle Royal

I enjoyed your post but I doubt that the Bard would recognise the epithet 'Burns the anarchist and atheist' about himself.

Sure he had a healthy disregard for the stuffed shirt, the Unco Guid, the hypocrit and their institutions, but he was an upright man, honest citizen and respected pillar of his community, which as an active senior freemason in Tarbolton and a government officer in Dumfries he was obliged to be.

With a plain spituality, Rabbie's relationship with his maker is an example which the majority today can find empathy with.
193

Seare,

Ayrshire 06/01/2009 15:29:15
Robert Burns is our No1 money drawer, so why don't we use his sexual infidelity for the good of everyone by producing badges, simply showing the number "1"?

Get everybody to wear "one".
Who and when better to promote STD awareness?
194

livilion,

livingston 06/01/2009 15:42:57
#205 Seare,

I, for one,(excuse the poetic pun) admire the public spirited sentiments which you express, but I can forsee a tiny snaggette with your STD awareness message in encouraging everybody to give each other "one".
195

greenhill,

06/01/2009 18:48:14
RE Porky,West Midlands 06/01/2009 13:40:39

What a mindless rant.There are universal timeless Standards e.g. equality for women and homosexuals,slavery is wrong, racism is evil.So you make comparisons with Stalin,Hitler,Mao etc.You are an idiot.

It is really strange that you oppose multiculturalism because relativism and multiculturalism are twin philosophies.I despise multiculturalism because I say that there are universal timeless moral standards.
You are out of your depth go away and do some serious thinking.
196

greenhill,

06/01/2009 18:50:09
RE livilion,livingston 06/01/2009 02:19:52

I accept your stern look of disaproval and burst out laughing. Anyone who admires Wallace and Bruce cannot be taken seriously.
197

Scotian,

Isle Royale 07/01/2009 12:56:46
Re 204
My comments were what Mr Fry's inference would be, not mine. Sorry, if that's not clear.

" A correspondence fixed with heaven
Is sure a noble anchor"
A wee bitty Burns spirituality

Cheers
198

Seare,

Ayrshire 08/01/2009 00:12:30
Dear Livilion, you said ["for one,(excuse the poetic pun) admire the public spirited sentiments which you express, but I can forsee a tiny snaggette with your STD awareness message in encouraging everybody to give each other "one"."]

As far as I can see with people being so "over friendly" nowadays as long as one is wearing one when giving one one, then give away.
199

wade,

here&now 08/01/2009 05:23:21
what a boob........
200

Sorley,

Oban 08/01/2009 17:04:19
1786: The publication of his first work, Poems – Chiefly in the Scottish Dialect, is an overnight success, putting a stop to his plans to emigrate to the West Indies. Mary Campbell also dies in this year.

That's right just as he was about to go off to help run a slave plantation his writing took off.OH Oh forgot to mention he had just joined a group well known for giving its members an unfair advantage in life -- The Masons-- it was they after all who promoted and bought his book.
He also joined the militia to stop the French revolution spreading to Scotland.
201

livilion,

livingston 08/01/2009 18:00:20
#212 Sorley,Oban

Who said a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing?

Burns joined the Dumfries Volunteers(Dad's Army?) in 1795, only the year before he died, to do his bit in the event that Napoleon attempted to invade. He-haw to do with the French revolution of which he was reputedly a great admirer:
"Does haughty Gaul invasion threat?
Then let the louns beware, Sir;
There's wooden walls upon our seas,
And volunteers on shore, Sir:
The Nith shall run to Corsincon,
And Criffel sink in Solway,
Ere we permit a Foreign Foe
On British ground to rally!
We'll ne'er permit a Foreign Foe
On British ground to rally!"

In other words: as brothers, on these islands we can fall out with each other and call each other names, come to blows even, but woe betide anbody else who tries to muscle in on the act. As true today as it ever was.

"TO MR. CUNNINGHAM.
BROW, Sea-bathing quarters, 7th July 1796.

"...The deuce of the matter is this-when an exciseman is off duty, his salary is reduced to £35 instead of £50. What way, in the name of thrift, shall I maintain myself, and keep a horse in country quarters, with a wife and five children at home, on 35 pounds? I mention this, because I had intended to beg your utmost interest, and that of all the friends you can muster, to move our Commissioners of Excise to grant me the full salary; I dare say you know them all personally. If they do not grant it me, I must lay my account with an exit truly en poete; if I die not of disease, I must perish with hunger..."

Worshipful Bro.Burns died a fortnight later with his request denied.
Aye the freemasons sure gave him an unfair advantage right enough...
202

livilion,

livingston 08/01/2009 18:27:52
#212 Sorley,Oban

OH Oh forgot to mention, at age 22 Robert Burns was initiated into Lodge St David Tarbolton, on the yankee doodle 4th of July 1781.

It was indeed his masonic brothers at lodge St David who, five years later, clubbed together so his first edition could be published in 1786, so relieving Burns from penury and having to emmigrate to the plantations of Jamaica.

I reckon that to class this act of benevolence as giving Bro. Rabbie an unfair advantage in life could be stretching the point a bit far.
203

livilion,

livingston 08/01/2009 18:36:53
210 Seare
As they say: buy me and stop one.
204

John O,

Qatar 09/01/2009 11:41:52
what's the big deal, these are a Scots finest qualities, so who better to represent my home land Bonnie Scotland.
205

Scotian,

Isle royale 09/01/2009 13:57:27
210 Sorley

Burns was a member of the governing committee that raised the Militia. He being a senior Officer of the State, who may be required to use the militia in his activities of the Excise in arresting vessels, etc. As a matter of history, he (Burns) led the arresting party boarding the ship, Roseamund. He also took charge of the administration of the 'Prize" involved in this capture. A bit too complex to explain all that here. He made quite a bit of money from it. Also it led to the investigation of Burns involvement in the disposal of the ship's guns (carronades), I believe this is where you are confusing Burns association with things going on in France. Check all that out in the book 'Robert Burns the Exciseman' by Graham Smith.

Burns Superior, Superintendant Findlater in the Excise, took the trouble to write a testimnoy of Burns. It is quite lengthy. Here is the final paragraph: ...I have seen Burns in all his various phases-- in his convivial moments, in his sober moods and in the bosom of his family; indeed I believe I saw more of him than any other individual had occasion to see him, after he became an Exciseman; and I never beheld anything like the gross enormities with which he is now charged... the virulance indeed which his memory has been treated is hardly paralleled in the annals of literature.

"Many and sharp the numerous ills
Inwoven in our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves
Regret, remorse and shame!
And Man, whose heaven erected face
The smiles of love adorn-
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn."


"There's many a badge that's unco braw
Wi ribbon, lace and tape on:
Let Kings and Princes wear them a'
Gie me the Master's Apron..."


"The social, friendly, honest man,
What ere he be,
Tis he fulfills great Natures plan,
And none but he."

Cheers
206

livilion,

livingston 11/01/2009 14:01:33

Can't let this string end without pasting the Bard's own words, posted halfway down another Scotsman: Burns sent to the devil headline:

Revealed: how Clooty the coo sent Rabbie Burns to the devil

11 January 2009
By Marc Horne

"...The poet is often lionised, and castigated, over his image as a hard-drinking hell-raiser, but admitted privately that when it came to the booze he was, in fact, a relative light-weight who struggled to hold his ale.

He states: "I had from my early days a 'touchy stomach' and dared not take more than a limited quantity, for fear of bringing on severe nausea.

"I must say, however, I do not always bear that in mind much to my regret."..."

btw Susan Smith when you plagiarise from other authors' articles it is a good idea to cut out references (left) to illustrations (right) before you publish.
EG
>>1784: At around this time, Burns meets and becomes lovers with Jean Armour (right). She will go on to bear him two sets of twins before they are married.

• 1785: His first illegitimate child, Elizabeth Paton Burns, is born to his mother's servant, Elizabeth Paton.

• 1785: Burns meets Mary Campbell (left). They become lovers and it is believed he may have married her.<<

 

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