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Thursday, 26th November 2009

'Genius' Bruce wins by a head

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Published Date:
17 June 2007
HIS greatest adversary labelled him "King Hob" - the royal yokel - and many academics have questioned his intellectual prowess.
But Robert Bruce, the medieval guerrilla leader who outwitted the English to re-establish an independent Scotland, has been classed a "genius".

Tests carried out by a team of Scottish scientists on a cast of the skull of 'Good King Robert' and th
e application of a formula relating brain size to intelligence have revealed that the 14th-century monarch could have had an IQ of 128.

That puts him just four points below the 132 mark that Mensa says signifies the most intelligent 2% of the population. But the Edinburgh scientists believe Bruce's score is almost certainly an underestimate.

Even at 128 - the average Briton is 100 - the former Scottish ruler would have been capable of leading "a large group with a hierarchical leadership structure". Other military leaders previously estimated to have had high IQs include Oliver Cromwell at 135, George Washington at 140 and Napoleon at 145.

The findings formalise the intellectual status of a Scotsman once derided by his over-confident Plantagenet adversary, Edward II. But that was before his cunning tactics won the 1314 Battle of Bannockburn, securing his reputation among his compatriots for centuries. His philosophical musings about the perseverance of a spider were also, at that stage, unknown.

To the possible relief of Scottish nationalists, the findings also contradict the opinion of Karl Pearson, a Fellow of the Royal Society, who in 1924 pronounced: "To judge him [Bruce] by his skull... the frontal would not popularly indicate great intellectual power."

The scientific team, led by Ian Deary, the professor of differential psychology at Edinburgh University, has published its findings in this month's edition of the American journal Intelligence. The conclusion of their report, entitled "Skull Size and Intelligence and Robert the Bruce's IQ", is that "Robert Bruce's estimated high IQ is congruent with his military, political and other intellectual achievements."

The team base their findings on a recent study of 48 "relatively healthy" and dementia-free elderly Scotsmen, funded by Scotland's Chief Scientist's Office. The 48 volunteers had the space between their ears measured by the University of Edinburgh's Brain Imaging Research Centre to determine the size of the cavity in which the brain is enclosed, which differs between individuals.

They were then subjected to the National Adult Reading Test (NART), which grades individuals' IQs by inviting them to pronounce 50 tricky words.

The tests found a consistent link between brain size and high IQ, and the same process was then applied to Bruce's skull. Two casts have been stored by Edinburgh University's anatomy department since his body was briefly exhumed from Dunfermline Abbey in the early 19th century.

The equation applied to the royal cranium, which measures 198mm long by 154mm wide - a large head even by today's standards - came up with the estimated IQ rating of 128.

Deary said there was only an "approximate" relationship between the circumference of a head and the quality of what it housed but insisted he was "95% confident" that Bruce's IQ fell in the 106 to 130 range, and most probably at the high end.

"Bruce's IQ estimate would put him in the top few percent of the population," he said. "It might even be an underestimate because the NART does not have enough hard questions at the top end."

But how did the Bruce, who died from leprosy in 1329, aged 55, develop such a large head at a time of great deprivation? Deary attributes it to his comfortable home life as the son of nobility as much as genes.

"[Bruce's]... privileged background and lack of privation probably explain in part his having a head size that is large," the report notes.

The results of the cranial postmortem were welcomed by Geoffrey Barrow, emeritus professor of Scottish history at Edinburgh University, biographer of Bruce and one of the study's eight authors.

"This fits in with the man's career," he said.

"Bruce was obviously an excellent person, with great personal courage. He was good at choosing counsellors and, unusually for the time, understood the geography of the west and the Hebrides."

The scientific paper says: "Robert Bruce's defeat of a full English army led by Edward II at Bannockburn showed his outstanding capabilities as a field commander and leader of men. Bruce's command of geography - understanding of directions and distances in Scotland - was altogether remarkable."

It adds that he had a "deep understanding" of the political situation, spoke at least three languages and played a key role in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, with its moving appeal to the Pope to recognise Scotland's independence.

"A master of politics moved from a typically dynastic attitude in early life to leadership of the community of the realm. This imaginative leap required intellectual powers of the highest order."

A Mensa spokeswoman said that the results appeared to confirm that Bruce was highly intelligent.

"The average IQ is 100, so clearly he was well above average, as history has borne out," she said. "If he is 128 then he is very close to the top 2%, but in any case it would be very difficult to question Robert Bruce's intelligence."

A 14th-century IQ test

1 If six chroniclers can copy two Bible pages in two minutes, how many chroniclers will it take to copy 18 pages in six minutes?

2 Two pilgrims are on their way to St Andrews. They start at the same point, walk in opposite directions for four miles, turn left and walk another three miles. What is the distance between them?

3 There are 1,200 Scots in the War of Independence. Some have pink and green striped tunics, some are all pink and some are all blue. One third are pure pink. Is it true that 400 Scots are definitely blue?

4 Pope Clement VII and Pope Urban VI are counting their savings. If Clement gives Urban £8 both have the same amount of money. If Urban gives Clement £8, Clement has five times as much as Urban. Who has what?

5 A peasant travels at 9.93mph in order to join the revolt. He returns home, over exactly the same distance, at 3.31mph. What is his average speed over the entire journey, presuming he survives the Black Death?

ANSWERS: 1) 18, 2) 10km, 3) No, the other 800 Scots can be any mix of all blue, pink and green stripes, 4) Urban has £16 and Clement has £32, 5) 4.965mph



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 June 2007 7:06 AM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
 
1

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/06/2007 01:02:54

-- outwitted the English; re-established an independent Scotland; classed a "genius"

This great intellectual warrior is the best leader Scotland has created, so far.

2

sheena,

at home, doing sums 17/06/2007 01:25:07

Surely the answer to 2) is 10 miles?

If so, having got them all right, does that make me a 'big head'/

3

doublescotch,

USA 17/06/2007 01:57:10

#2 Sheena. You are correct. knowing the 3,4,5 sides of the right triangle doesn't convert miles to KM's.:>) It is not necessary that you are a big head so much as whoever typed the answers has a small head!

4

Jim A,

17/06/2007 04:09:18

With some people wanting independence for Scotland again I wonder what Robert The Bruce would make of it all. Probably feel he fought for nothing. How sad.

5

Ichabod,

17/06/2007 06:10:56

Bruce was not a guerilla leader.
He beat the English in full scale battle - Bannockburn!.

It is not surprising that this paper would get that wrong!

6

donald,

weegieland 17/06/2007 06:14:51

So that is why the National Trust wants to ban the annual Bannockburn rally?

7

Black Douglas,

Ayrshire 17/06/2007 07:30:43

Bruce may well have had a high IQ and has been credited with great success. However, it was the Good Sir James (The Black) Douglas who provided the intelligence, inspiration and cunning which resulted in the many successful escapades during the wars of independence.

8

wayne bijlyeerheid,

17/06/2007 08:22:37

#9
He won't be the last.
Glad he got shot of morons like yourself.

9

Mcsnagpile,

S.E.A 17/06/2007 08:29:02

Once upon a time there was a big head that had an honours degree in mathematics. One day they x-rayed his head to find that the big head contained a very diminutive brain in fact it was practically non existent. Of course he had hydrocephalus. Possibly as a result of this he was put out of Mensa. If it takes a train one hour to travel 20 miles how long will it take forty trains to vanish up their own shufter.

10

BK,

Cyberspace 17/06/2007 08:52:06

I thought phrenology had been discredited as a pseudo science. If skull size were related to intelligence, would that not prove that all women were intellectually inferior to men?

11

Dave Scott,

reality bites 17/06/2007 08:54:15

Aye, 'the Bruce' was born in England ... Essex man in fact (Witham).

12

Dave Scott,

reality bites 17/06/2007 08:57:00

*11

"If it takes a train one hour to travel 20 miles how long will it take forty trains to vanish up their own shufter."

No question mark then? - You can't be in MENSA !

Anyway, the answer's fairly obvious but it depends whether there's a tender behind.

13

Radical Mac,

Kirkcaldy 17/06/2007 08:59:46

I have been tested by a psychologist friend and found I have an IQ of 148. However would not get that with a Mensa test. As I have no interest in puzzles. I do not consider myself a genius or anything like it. It never fails to amaze me what universities get money to waste time on. Lets just remember him as a hero.

14

BK,

Cyberspace 17/06/2007 09:05:05

#13 - He was actually born in Turnberry in Ayrshire in the castle on what is now the golf course.

15

Greenheatman,

17/06/2007 09:05:45

Using a makeshift pair of calipers out of a wire coat hanger my head measures 155mm by 205mm.

Does anybody know what I need to subtract to get a close approximation of my cranial cavity?

16

Jardine,

17/06/2007 09:14:23

#13, #16

Go to Hartlepool, the pair of you! Everyone there knows he is the town's most famous son, having been born at the village of Hart. His ancestors are all buried in St Hilda's Church on the Headland and the Brus Arms pub is nearby.

www.digital-hartlepool.com/historic/figures/brus/fig_brus...

17

BK,

Cyberspace 17/06/2007 09:27:07

#18
It doesn't say that he was born there - just that his ancestors had lived there for a while.
Who hung the Monkey?

18

nell from falkirk,

17/06/2007 09:35:44

So ba'heid is now a compliment then?

19

Tweedmouth,

17/06/2007 09:40:07

"the medieval guerrilla leader who outwitted the English to re-establish an independent Scotland"

Putting aside the centuries of myths - think on this:

Robert de Bruis was a Norman French aristocrat.
He was fighting against Edouard Plantagenet - a Norman, French aristocrat.

The entire 'Scottish' artistocracy were French, Norman aristocrats - as were the 'English' barons, earls and dukes. All of the Scots Barons held estates in what is now called England: the Comyns, the Bruces etc, etc.

Robert de Bruis fought FOR Edward 1st for more than a decade before seizing the chance to take over an area of the country in his own interests. He actually fought for Edward against William Wallace at Dunbar, then a few years later changed sides when it suited.

The whole lot were a bunch of murdering, raping, theiving gangsters - all brought over by William the B****** in 1066 and all of them murdered their way through the indigenous Saxons and Celts subduing them by torture, starvation and conquest.

The idea that any Scottish peasant came voluntarily to Bannockburn to fight Edward is sheer rubbish. Feudal overlords forced their vassals to turn up with so many footsoldiers on pain of death. Similarly - the forces which Edward brought to Bannockburn were led by Normans ( De Bohun - a very English name) and the poor bloody infantry were either there under duress, or like the Welsh archers they were mercenaries.

Scotland is littered with Norman families and Norman names - Beaulieu (Beautiful place in French), Moncur (Mon Coeur) etc. etc.

In the 13th Century there was no place called England and no place called Scotland - just a bunch of French warlords fighting for the biggest share of the pie. They were just murdering, pillaging thieves and Bruce was one of them. When William the B****** died - his barons stripped the corpse of crown, jewels and gold cloth then immiediatly rode off in every direction to raise armies to contest the

20

nell from falkirk,

17/06/2007 09:49:15

#5 I think you may be telling porkies about your sister's laddie - it's reckoned (though IQs in the extreme ranges are very hard to measure, because of their rarity), but about 1 person in six thousand million will have an IQ of 200

21

nell from falkirk,

17/06/2007 09:53:01

#21 The Normans weren't French as such - they were vikings who had colonised that bit of what is now France. Hence the name, Nordemann, which became Norman, Men of the North.

22

Jardine,

17/06/2007 09:55:09

#True, it can't prove it but its claim is as good as any other place in England or Scotland.

BTW the Balliol family seat was Castle Barnard, North Yorkshire, not far from Hartlepool. One of them founded Balliol College, Oxford.

23

Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 17/06/2007 10:20:45

Robert the Bruce did NOT die from leprosy. That was a propaganda story put about by the English. Judging from the evidence and bruces death mask, it is highly probable he died from kidney failure. I am surprised that the researchers swallowed that old lie.

24

BK,

17/06/2007 10:26:31

#21 The Bruce family were not Norman, they were Flemish, although they had settled in Normandy. Te Name Bruce comes from Bruges where they originated. Bruce's mother was the Countess of Carrick, so being born in Scotland to a Scottish mother gives him a good claim to be Scottish.
And Jardine, you are talking absolute nonsense. The Bruce family moved to Turnberry in Scotland generations before Robert was born. Go away and hang another monkey, the only thing Hartlepuddlians are famous for!

25

Jardine,

17/06/2007 10:41:11

I repeat, there is no proof whatsoever that he was born at Turnberry. Hartlepool's claim to be his birthplace has long been attested to locally. You will note from the history of the Wars of Independence that Bruce paid special attention to Hartlepool, as his forces sacked it at least twice.

26

Broddr,

17/06/2007 10:42:04

I agree with a previous poster that if this is true, i.e. intelligence based on skull size, it should be true also that men are more intelligent than women.

Which is clearly not true.

What a great waste of time and money. Who cares. A man should be judged by his actions and acheivements rather than some porky-pie scientific test.

27

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/06/2007 11:39:20

Robert Bruce was an ambitious young man who matured though adversity as a leader and king. He gained a deep understanding of the Community of the Realm of Scotland. He had to be ruthless at times but succeeded in uniting our always feuding and factional country. He needed Angus Og's Viking-Gaels (who were fighting their own territorial war at the time) on his side. Politics is action!

Robert F Kennedy was of similar stature.

28

Dereklh,

USA 17/06/2007 12:22:09

Bruce (like Jesus) is dead. Stop this infernal dwelling on the past and try to claw your way into the 21st. century.

29

drake's drum,

North Britain 17/06/2007 12:47:15

No.29 "Robert F Kennedy was of similar stature."

The Kennedys - are we still talking about lying, thieving, raping, murdering rogues?

30

Darkhorse,

Edyborough 17/06/2007 12:48:53

I wish I'd spotted the answer was in km and not in miles - that makes getting it right beside the point really.

31

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 12:57:33

The size of a Scotland on Sunday journalist’s brain can be measured by plotting a right angled triangle from the middle of their left ear lobe to the top of the cranium and then extending the line to the tip of the nose.

By adding together the square of the two AM ‘s and then by deducing the square root of the result, the size of the brain is established.

It is of course then necessary to convert the measurement of units (MOU) from imperial to metric in order to further emphasise that the current Scottish Leader does not require to be consulted on matter which are the reserve of the Imperial Power in Westminster.

32

Kenneth,

17/06/2007 12:59:06

#32-Does this mean there is a blood line? Did Bob the B have offspring? I'm writing a book as we speak.

#33-bootlegger- is the moniker you are searching for
the presidency, senatex3 kind of smooths things out though-not unlike the heros of bygone days-murdered, betrayed, etc to be remembered for one great move. We need heros. Those of us who remain under the control of others need them most.

33

Darkhorse,

Endybrow 17/06/2007 13:09:34

Now don't go bringing builders into this. Whatever was wrong with the spring was probably The maker or maybe Miss use.
Why don't Americans like dwelling on the past?

34

nell from falkirk,

17/06/2007 13:16:34

#30 it's what IQ tests measure

35

2dogs in D.C.,

Oh, c'mon now 17/06/2007 13:18:58

My dog Roofus has a big head. And tho' he knows how to open doors, he's far from even smart. ( He likes to walk around w/smelly socks in his mouth). I.Q. tests-BAH. What I want to see is a test for common sense. Mind you, this is not to detract from Robet Bruce.

36

JohnM,

London, BRITAIN. 17/06/2007 13:23:33

#37 They dont like dwelling on the past cos they dont have one!
Just like interfering in other peoples!

37

nell from falkirk,

17/06/2007 13:29:21

#41 half a gill if you're lucky!!

38

Brian D Finch,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 13:37:01

#17 'Does anybody know what I need to subtract to get a close approximation of my cranial cavity?'

Try your skull. ;-)

39

Robert E,

Dun Eideann 17/06/2007 13:39:12

#21 Tweedmouth

"The idea that any Scottish peasant came voluntarily to Bannockburn to fight Edward is sheer rubbish. Feudal overlords forced their vassals to turn up with so many footsoldiers on pain of death."

What about the clan system? That softened the impact of feudalism in Scotland, especially in the Highlands and Islands.

40

Brian D Finch,

Glasgow 17/06/2007 13:39:38

Re all those tossers that wish to claim Bruce was born in some English hovel, his mother tongue was Gaelic. How do I know? It was the tongue his mammy spoke.

Anyway, as Wellington said: 'If I was born in a stable, would it make me a horse?'

41

Peter McNaughton,

Montreal 17/06/2007 13:51:14

Ah the old Phrenology game. Like Alchemy it is nice to see that time and money are wasted on this journey of discovery. The relationship between the size of the head and intelligence is evidence by Napoleon - his head was small but he was a genius, Hitler's bonce was just about normal but his intelligence level was evilly psychotic, Churchill had a big head with a brilliant intelligence.

Most academics have small minds set in, no doubt, normal sized heads however whether they are "geniuses" is another question all together or even intelligent for that matter. My psychiatrist sleeps under the bed because he thinks he is a little potty!

Small wonder I no longer live there amongst all the egg heads.

George Brown seems to have a big head I wonder if that means anything?! Craineology for ever should be Scotland's cry! Long live Phrenolgy! That's wot I say!

42

Darkhorse,

Endybrow 17/06/2007 14:12:08

I thought everybody loves a parade?

43

nell from falkirk,

17/06/2007 14:19:11

#52 so they do; chairman g is just a misery-guts.

44

Bachsitis,

US 17/06/2007 14:41:29

Skull size : IQ ?

What then do we make of the measurable fact that on average most ALL men have larger heads than most ALL women?

45

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 17/06/2007 14:54:52

8

You are so right with your history, The Bruce was just a big man who could kill, I personally have no time for the false history surrounding the man. as for the film well fiction is an understatement.

The IQ from "his" skull wht rubbish.

46

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 14:55:52

#51

I don’t recall any murders (blue or otherwise) being committed as a result of the annual march to Bannockburn.

Perhaps the Brigadoon extras and White Heather Club fans are a more welcome boost to the local economy of Stirling than any of the other organisations you cared to mention.

Why don’t you ask the local authority to ban the march?

47

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 17/06/2007 15:03:00

He was a killer, a terrorist,

48

media4,

Ottawa, Canada 17/06/2007 15:11:10

Any votes for the Bruce's birthplace being Lochmaben Castle in Annandale, or Writtle, in Essex? And other than a theory about the colour of the coat of arms being from Flanders, the massive weight of evidence suggests a Scandinavian ancestry for the Bruce family.

49

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 15:12:37

58

Will that be your opinion upon Nelson Mandella also?

50

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 17/06/2007 15:15:43

-- The Kennedys - are we still talking about lying, thieving, raping, murdering rogues?

Patriarch Joe Kennedy has a questionable reputation. Edward Kennedy is not trusted at all.

Robert F Kennedy began as a zealot, a partisan. He had to work with L B Johnson. They destested eachother. Politics means compromise. He has to surmount the grief of his brother's assassination. He had to appeal to the likes of Nebraska farmers who didn't like Democrats or Kennedies. Though his brother's service in the Navy would have meant something. He grew as a politician and as a human being. He had difficult decisions to make on the Vietnam War. He had the moral standing to rise above the money, corruption, razzamatazz of American politics and lead his people

51

Dougie Welsh,

New Scotland 17/06/2007 15:27:01

#4 Jim A - In every war, there are battles that seem to be repeats of others. It's the nature of war. Especially when your enemy is not as bright. English Edward I and Edward III were smart enow, but Edward II left a lot to be desired. Fortunately, not by us.

#6 Ichabod - Bruce fought a guerilla war for years before Bannockburn.

#8 Black Douglas - Oor ancestor was, nae doot, a great warrior. But it took the Bruce to gie him that chance.

#9 Rulesbutnotrulers - There have been many Scottish leaders with skill, wisdom and opportunity. On the other hand, anarchy has seldom proved to be a successful long-term strategy for nationhood.

#12 BK - Not one word was mentioned about "phrenology". Read the article again.

#21 Tweedmouth - Thank you for your kind and gentle assessment of the thousands of clansmen who voluntarily followed their clan chiefs to fight, perhaps not FOR Bruce but DEFINITELY FOR SCOTLAND. Not everyone at Bannockburn was a feudal serf. Highlanders then as now are free men who choose their own causes.

#22 Nell from Falkirk - There's more than one scale for measuring IQ's. Supergenius on one is merely above average on the other. Numbers are irrelevant; Deeds count.

#56 The Fly Fifer - Just because YOU don't believe something, it isn't true? And you dare to speak of "fiction". You hate heroes because you KNOW bluidy well you couldn't perform a heroic act if the BBC had a film crew right beside you. Haud yer wheesht, ye gormless auld crankie.

52

Jardine,

17/06/2007 15:40:44

#47

Wellington never said that, it was a fabricated quote from a journalist. Plus ca change.

I know, I really should get out more.

53

Peem,

Saskatoon 17/06/2007 15:55:06

#17 Your cranial cavity is zero 'cos like all men, ye're a' bane fae the neck up

54

Scythia,

Belgium / 17/06/2007 16:16:09

No3 - I think its safe to say the writer of this piece doesn't have an IQ in the top %

55

Dave Scott,

reality bites 17/06/2007 16:28:54

OK, Bruce could have been born anywhere, or came from Bruges or Bruix, but was really a French Viking whose mother's family spoke Gaelic; he fought FOR the 'Hammer of the Scots' and against the bisexual Ed II. Bruce probably did not peg out from leprosy.

So given all this, why are we trying to make enemies of the English, some SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS LATER, by giving foriegners a free University education and not our neighbours? So much for 'a man's a man for a'that,".

56

The Fly Fifer,

fife 17/06/2007 16:30:17

63 the same applies to the oppositye you stinking cantakoi=uras fool,

You can dream as much as you like about the bruce, he was nothing more than aterrorist and heroic I think not he was an idiot . look how it ended . He broke the law and got his just end.

It was tough in those days .. he took a risk and failed in the end

57

The Fly Fifer,

fife 17/06/2007 16:35:26

ay Dave the bigotry of small mined tartena wearing sksnky scots wanna bees is just so arccheic.

They live in a past they do know undertsnad, hanker after a nation that will never be, dream of victories which were nothing more than transient fights about greed.

Just look at the "tartan Army" wow what a legacy of all those heros they think about. JOKE TIME!!

Ubtil Scotland comes int the mofern world, cleans up its increasingly drunken masses, knocks out secarianism and builds a good industry based on hard work a nd fantasic out put then Scotland will reain in the back wates of the world

58

IWright,

17/06/2007 16:37:42

#51
"superannuated Brigadoon extras swanning about like they own the place."

They do own the place - it's Scotland, their country.

59

IWright,

17/06/2007 16:39:06

#56
Which film are you talking about? - I didn't know they had made one about King Robert.

60

commonsense,

Looking for head expanders 17/06/2007 17:16:16

Frankenstein must have been a bright bloke then.

61

Kinghobbe,

Scotland 17/06/2007 17:51:13

Robert the 1st of Scotland was not born in England, but his father was likely to have been. The repetition of an error made by Geoffrey of Monmouth was repeated in the 19th century and the myth grew from there-only according to Professor GWS Barrow, author of the seminal academic work Robert bruce and the Community of the Realm of Scotland, who gives an excellent rationalisation.

As to Robert the First being 'French Norman', he was the 8th person to be named Robert Bruce from that family since the Norman conquest of England.

What we Scots call 'his ma' was a Gaelic princess from an ancient line, and therefore his 'French' bloodline isn't as dolly dimple as the great unlearned folk like tweedmouth prattle on about.

Also, after his family were no longer Northman/ Norman/ Norseman (see the pattern here when early French aristocracy is described?) and had lived here since about 1066 (or a little later) and came to Scotland on the invitation of David I of Scotland-how long are we expected to believe that immigrant status lasted in Medieval times?

I mean from 11th century to the 14th century has to make you become a little bit inclined towards your country and surely you can forget about being classed as French or indeed Flemish?!

I think so!

He was a guerilla leader, but won a pitched battle when he knew he could. Guerilla warfare in those times meant not fighting when it meant defeat, and then if the circumstances were brilliant enough-kick some deserving ass!

A population the size of Scotland needed that sort of genius. Bruce's dying words to his son were " Never fight a pitched battle with England" look at some of the subsequent cock ups from David II and then the Stewart dynasty.....

As to the plonker-like argument of saying that Bruce fought 'for 10 years' for Edward Longshank, he actually did what all nobles of the time tried to do-survive and bide his time, and when he took on the caiuse of Scotland, he

62

Auld-Farren,

17/06/2007 17:55:39

#37: Darkhorse:
Americans don’t like dwelling in the past because it suits them to believe that the USA was created by Immaculate Conception and that Americans invented everything from scratch—including Democracy.

Re the above IQ test: all the questions are trick questions.

(1) Chroniclers record events as they happen. Scriveners copy books.

(2) There is a world of distance between the two pilgrims. Clearly, one of them has no sense of direction.

(3) There were more than 1,200 Scots in the War of Independence—and, to a man, they were saltair blue, at heart, anyway… Besides, any Scotsman caught wearing pink was hanged.

(4) Well spotted #49. Correct answer: the scenario is an historical impossibility.

(5) In the 14th century peasants didn’t come equipped with speedometers.

63

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/06/2007 18:30:04

21 & 75. There is a misconception that Scotland in 1296 was dominated by Normans. Kinghobbe correctly identifeid the Flemish influence which is often mistaken as being norman due to the similarities in their names.

The ragman roll was written in norman French so the signatories can easily be mistaken as being norman. The signatories were the important people in Scotland at the time. I photocopied the lot from a leatherbound volume at Edinburgh Central Library - but the Scottish section was in the basement while English history was on the ground floor. That says a lot.

Robert the Bruce was norman and as such had a chivalric duty to fight alongside his father for the norman cause. He fought against Wallace at Stamford Bridge when Wallace was conducting guerrilla warfare in England because he had to.

Bruce Castle is in White Hart Lane between Wood Green and Tottenham in London. The norman way was for the eldest son to retain the family seat while the other male siblings had to move out of London like the motorway system and take lands wherever. But they still had to swear their allegience to the norman cause.

It still lives on at westminster and all those who sink with it.

64

is it me?,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 20:03:07

Most of this is tripe. Reading the disparate views here, it's clear nobody knows what went on in the 14th century; how could we ? As for the Bruce's dying words to his son , "don't fight a pitched battle with the English".....where did that come from ? Doesn't sound very Scots to me. More Tony Curtis.

As for Nigel Tranter.... a novelist. No doubt in a few hundred years' time Celebrated Edinburgh Author Ian Rankin will be referred to as a chronicler of life in ye olde Edinburgh in ye 21st century.

As for head size = IQ . King Kong must have been one smart monkey.

65

thesmallerhalf,

17/06/2007 20:20:14

It has been hilarious reading these "contributions". Such a display of ignorance, bigotry and half remembered fables. Not to mention the assumption that history as writtten is always an interpretation and frequently a partial one. Then there is the problem of judging past events by modern standards. Next thing will be some loon claiming Braveheart as a factual depiction of another Scot. I'm just grateful Mel didn't have a crack at Robert the Bruce as well.

66

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 17/06/2007 21:00:15

Oh how glad I am not to be as superior as mind number 79

67

kinghob,

Scotland 17/06/2007 21:37:59

Robert the Bruce was not a 'norman', because he was number 8 of that name almost 250 years after arrival on these isles, and in fact had a Gaelic mother, something which had a significant influence on his life and contributed to his success.

Bruce spoke Gaelic, and commanded the schiltron from the Highlands and islands, which speaks volumes to those who believe he was a joshing norman type into French stuff.

When French was the language of nobles in England (with ecclesiastical latin) , Gaelic was the language of the royal court of Scotland (with ecclesiastical latin)! Aye, or even Oui?

Vive le difference.

The reason that Scotland retained her identity and independence was partly attributable to those normans fae hunners o' years ago coming up to Scotland by invitation and............becoming annoyingly Scottish!

The ragman roll was 'written in french' because of the English Royal Court, not because the signatories (who had no choice) were French and into French stuff!

Get a grip, you only have a wee while and then the ones who talk 'utter mince' about historical matters will have to get back to getting their history from the back of a co co pops packet.

I also loved the 'norman way' being about the eldest son 'getting everything'-sort of a theme throughout history of 'any' country methinks.

To 'Is it me',

If you want to correspond with me about what Robert Bruce did or didn't do and reckon that there are no chronicles related to 14th century Scotland, and it is all a big vacuum of innuendo lacking original sources-let me know on here and I'll help you out.

Just remember that I didn't mention 'Nigel tranter' but a guy called Professor GWS Barrow, one of Scotland's most respected historians, and a person that has his work used as the standard reading for undergoing a degree in Scottish history.

From 1310 until his death in 1329 there are many charters and documents related to Robert 1st of Scotla

68

nell from falkirk,

17/06/2007 22:09:02

mmmm - I think it was me who mentioned Nigel Tranter, but not in this thread, rather, in the one about the Stone of Scone.
And I did say there that I had no idea how accurate the book was...
Good read though..

69

is it me?,

Edinburgh 17/06/2007 23:53:51

#83 kinghob
I was prepared to discuss this with you until I got to your last two paragraphs wherein your capacity for serious debate was revealed. All I was saying was, don't believe everything that was written 600/700 years ago any more than you believe everything that was written in yesterday's Scotsman. In those days people wrote what they were told to write, or what they thought people wanted to read. ( same as portrait artists painted what they thought people wanted to see)
I didn't address my remarks to you, so I don't understand your personal attack.
If you believe unquestioningly things that were written in the Middle Ages or at any time since, you're an unimaginative fool.
I was born in Dunfermline.

70

Wicca man,

Albion 18/06/2007 02:43:27

#36 There is a bloodline the presnt Lord Bruce is Andrew Douglas Alexander Thomas Bruce, 11th Earl of Elgin and 15th Earl of Kincardine, KT, CD, DL, JP (born 17 February 1924), styled Lord Bruce before 1968, is a Scottish nobleman.

Andrew Douglas Alexander Thomas Bruce, Lord Bruce was born in 1924, the eldest son of the 10th Earl of Elgin and 14th Earl of Kincardine and Hon. Katherine Elizabeth Cochrane, daughter of the 1st Baron Cochrane of Cults. He was educated at Eton and at Balliol College, Oxford. Yes he is the decendant of the Lord Elgin who nicked the Marbles.

71

livilion,

livingston 18/06/2007 06:11:56

>>>But how did the Bruce, who died from leprosy in 1329, aged 55, develop such a large head at a time of great deprivation?<<<
ERLEND CLOUSTON AND JEREMY WATSON

I think he would've looked odd if his big body had a wee head, don't you?

Sorry pals but you seem to be buying into the English propaganda that was replayed in 'Braveheart'.

Here's what Goutam Dawn
Dermatology Specialist Registrar Glasgow of the Scottish Dermatological Society has to say on the subject:

""...During the course of leprosy, sudden inflammatory "reactions" may occur.

Two main types are described:
type 1 are localised, involving the skin and nerves,
but type 2 reactions (also known as erythema nodosum leprosum) produce an episodic generalised incapacitating illness and occur in multibacillary type of leprosy.

Both reactions can be self-limiting.
Thus Bruce's intermittent illnesses leading to absences from royal duties would also fit best with multibacillary leprosy.

However, without treatment multibacillary leprosy progresses relentlessly causing disfigurement, deformity and disability, and there was no effective treatment in Bruce's day.

In medieval times society viewed leprosy as a punishment for sin, and stigmatised lepers.

It was known to be transmissible by contact, so sufferers were subject to social isolation.

Spontaneous cure is extremely unlikely.

Considering all this, it is remarkable that if Bruce suffered from multibacillary leprosy for almost two decades, the first mention of it is not until nearly 20 years after his death.

Although Bruce was despised by his English and Scottish enemies, not to mention the Pope, none referred him as a leper.

In fact, he attended Parliament and carried out most of his royal duties in good health.

No one shunned his company and friends visited him on his deathbed. >>>""

72

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 18/06/2007 06:37:39

-- Nobody knows what went on in the 14th century; how could we ?

Do you know happened last week, last month, last year, the year 1917? Normans were obsessed with compiling invertories, so was the Church. Historians will tell you certain battles took place. States kept records. The chartering of Burgh Towns was cruxial to the period. We know who were in power and who the people were. And can see how courage, endurance, principles, adversity, self-interest motivated them. Nigel Tranter meticiously researched his historical narratives.

-- Then there is the problem of judging past events by modern standards.

Whose standards? Yours? Mine? The standards of contemporaty television? From the speaches of Presidents Bush and Putin?

I could assess the "Cutty Sark" by modern standards. I am a ship designer. I'd have to say she is a very impressive structure built from tropical hardwoods on iron frames. I could have her measured and write a "book" for her as we do for modern ships. When she's restored, we could launch her again and undertake sea trials with modern instrument. The original Captain and Mates used their experience, training, and crew discipline to successfully sail her. Modern Officers have to learn the same chart and table work to take us from here to China. Though day to day navigation uses modern electronics and satellite positioning.

73

Princess Whitewater,

Black.Mountain 10/02/2008 13:57:15
My late aunt, of Scottish descent, used to say this:
"Big head, big wit; little head, no wit."
Of course there is a reverse corollary to the whole
notion of genuis: optimi coruptio pessima
The greater the excellency of a thing, the more
dangerous the defection.
74

Princess Whitewater,

Black.Mountain 10/02/2008 14:01:49
erratum: genius
75

Rothiemurchus 55,

USA 29/12/2008 04:48:00
As a descendant of Robert 22 generations later, I will acknowledge that my IQ is 128 as was my fathers who was 21 generations removed from Robert...He was and always will be a Scot !!!!!!!!! JA Macintosh

 

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