The designs on Rosslyn’s crypt wall are not Templar or Masonic, none of them. They can ‘all’ be related to building craft techniques, using compasses and rulers. They explain processes of creating pointed arches and other design features measurable in the structure.

Mr Millar, you also stated “Rosslyn means Rose Line”. This alluring idea captured my imagination when I was in my twenties, however, after much research I have had to accept this is not what Rosslyn means. I have completed a probability study on the name and having considered: Norse, old Irish, French, Latin and Gaelic interpretations, the third highest probability was --‘little red haired one’. The second was --“Small Horse” but the highest probability is Gaelic, meaning ‘Ros’ - promontory, ‘Linne’ - Pool of water, describing the environment surrounding the church and castle.

As far as calculating longitude in ancient times goes: Mr Millar, with all due respect, if you actually new the answer. the whole world would be celebrating your amazing discovery. I read your book, ‘The Golden Thread of time’ and I respect many of the observations you made, however you did not explain how the ancients calculated longitude.

To say you know the answer, but ‘we’ are not ready to handle it yet, could be seen by some, as a little condescending. However, your work on latitude is excellent.

Timo Puhakka you said “I can think of few templar symbols more common than the 5 pointed star of Venus. Similarly 5 petaled roses along with the 5 pointed stars appear in Templar built cathedrals throughout Europe.”

Here are a few for you, the Cross Patte, the Maltese Cross and the Beausant, are among the handful of symbols used by the original Templar’s. You are correct to say Christian Holy buildings display pentacle and pentagram features, but they represented the five wounds of Christ and a few other biblical concepts. All the other Monastic orders in the 12th and 13th centuries who built holy buildings used pentacles, therefore it is not specifically a Templar symbol. Stars and roses do not mean Rosslyn is Templar. It is far more probable the roses in Rosslyn relate to the Virgin Mary and this is a predictable occurrence in a building erected by Catholics.

Here’s a wee challenge for you: show me one single valid historical reference to the Templars having used a rose symbol within their Order.

You went on to say “The 5 pointed star of Venus also appears in every Masonic lodge world wide”. I agree with this statement, but so do octagons, hexagons and nonagons. Considering there is not a single Masonic carving in Rosslyn chapel, and not a shred of evidence to suggest Masons used it for rituals, the stars in Rosslyn are not Templar or Masonic. Some complex modern theories associate Rosslyn to Freemasonry, but when facts are faced, all these ideas fall apart, having being built upon speculative observations.

You said: “Also the navigational origins of the lozenges would be a demonstration of how the (escaped) Templars were able to navigate to America before returning to Scotland where they carved depictions of Maize, decades before Columbus "discovered" the new world."

This is a fun idea, which a couple of new-age authors drummed up around ten years ago. I do not believe Templars escaped to America or anywhere else. T

And finally, you asked: “Am I really the only person to have noticed this?“ No you are not, and I admit I believed in such theories, until I was introduced to the term ‘sceptical analysis’. It shocked me to discover how much speculation has been turned into fact and how warped these fields of research have become.

My ancestors are Norse and I feel their salt fish trading network and fur trading explorations into the North Atlantic some 400 years before Templars existed, are undermined and overlooked every time this pre-Columbian voyage is celebrated. You can travel to America from Scotland and remain within a couple of hundred miles of land, hopping from Shetland, to the Faroes, to Iceland and around Greenland. You don’t need lozenge knowledge.

I respect your views Ashley, but the idea that you can hop around the ocean out of the sight of land and hit Iceland or the Faroes indicates that you have never sailed in charge of your own sailing craft like your ancestors
Without mountains the horizon at a viewing height of 3 meters is around 3.5 nautical miles not hundreds
There is evidence of portolans(charts) going back at least 1500 years not a mere 600
For those more sceptical my friend and fellow author Phil Gardiner who wrote the Serpent Grail has suggested that the image could well be a scaffolding tower used by the masons as they planned the building
For those who do not see Masonic evidence please look above the door in the East annex to the Leper Chapel where you will clearly see the inscription of Mark Masons
One is a cross on a tripod
Having been brought up in Liberton near Roslyn and the Pentland Hills, I am well aquainted with the area.
I did not condescend to anyone when I said I was not ready to release the information about Longitude
The academic work is enormous and I am not yet ready to publish my next work
The last book took 4 years to complete
The theory and model work, allowing me to set a challenge that was well publicised on the web but no one took it up by the closing date.
The discovery of the working cross as a astronomical device is major on its own since it is the first working artefact that proves a theory and answers many mysteries, it took academia and the media 7 years before it started to filter through.
It is now used in 3 other books by fellow authors to support their own research
What makes you so certain that Historians, academics and the media will support this discovery of longitude when it threatens historical authority?
This work is grass roots,a gift to the people and a labour of love and a thank you to that great Spirit that gave me life and purpose.
But I am not sure at my time of life that

Hello Ashley,

Congratulations on your new book, The Rosslyn Matrix, I do intend to read it.

The lozenges are in the ancient building upon which the Rosslyn Chapel was later built, so how old do you think was the original building?

And is there any indication of who were the original builders?

Crichton, your clues have already been used, and I thank you for your good work.

Dear mr Miller

The sailing directions for Greenland are listed in the Landnámabók, an account of the discovery and settlement of Iceland written in the 12th century. To get to Greenland, Norse navigators sailed due west maintaining a constant latitude. They could follow the coast line round to America, and didn't really need to consider longitude to get to America and back. I believe the term is 'running latitude'.

You said "For those who do not see Masonic evidence please look above the door in the East annex to the Leper Chapel where you will clearly see the inscription of Mark Masons".

This is not 'M'asonic evidence, it's 'm'asonic evidence. The small 'm' being the important bit. Ofcourse master masons marked their stones, but this has nothing to do with Freemasonry, or the Mark degree.

Your friend suggested the image could be a scaffolding tower used by the masons as they planned the building. Could you ask him which part on a scaffolding tower the horn shape, the star and the lozenges represent? I like this idea, but any theory must account for all the parts.

I agree that your discovery of the working cross as an astronomical device is major on its own. It was a highly original concept. But, when you offered a prize for the solution of longitude in antiquity, it was perceived as a cry for help, rather than admitting you were close, but stuck. The immediate question being, 'why would a man with such a prized piece of knowledge need to give away £5000 to anyone?'

You asked, "What makes you so certain that Historians, academics and the media will support this discovery of longitude when it threatens historical authority?"

Please define your term 'historical authority' because I cannot think of a single person, group or society, who would benefit from hushing your discoveries up. On the contrary, the media love stirring things up and would happily promote your ideas. Please explain which a

Thanks James

I'am sure you will enjoy it.

The east window in the original building, now the crypt, has been dated to the 11th-12th century. The last three St Clair Jarls of Orkney were buried underneath it, which suggests they built it, but nobody can be sure. The land was gifted to that family in 1057 ad, and their may have been a structure in existance since this time. Have you been to Rosslyn? Have you seen the lozenges and the Matrix?

Ashley, I have not been to Rosslyn, but perhaps I could buzz up there, as I may go to Spain to do a documentary about Atlantis.

All I've seen of the lozenges and the matrix is from the article here in The Scotsman, so I look forward to reading your book.

Is it available in stores in the U.S., or is through your website the way to go?

Ashley
I agree that it is unlikely to be scaffolding for the reasons you state

"latitude sailing" or "running down your easting (or westing) was reputed to have been used by Columbus and Degamo

You consider that it is possible to run the coastline of Greenland by following a line of latitude from Norway, the only clear line of latitude is that of 60 degrees N from Norway through the Shetland Islands and it is 1000 nautical miles of open ocean until it touches the most southerly tip of Greenland with a further 450 Nm to the coast of America landing just south of the Hudson
To take the route you suggested earlier via the Faroes and Iceland to the coast of Greenland is not a clear line of latitude but a great circle route even when Island hopping . To vary between latitudes with many land falls and outcrops is a very complex excercise compared. You will also have to take into account current and leeway.In your example relating to the 12th Century it should be understood that Polaris was not as close to the celestial pole due to precession as it is now, It was circling the pole at 12.5 degrees from its present position creating a variation of distance depending on the time of night and the time of year of some 750 nautical miles and therefore could provide an unreliable source of latitude. have you considered in your work how this difficulty of finding latitude could have been overcome by the Vikings while at sea?

You may be reassured that I have discovered the ancient method of finding longitude with the cross and have publically staked my reputation on it,
I look forward to reading your research and wish you success with your book

Your last paragraph was exciting, I like your confidence, and if you have found the method to calculate longitude in antiquity, let me be the first to say welldone! This is a massive claim.

Check the accuracy of your statement about Polaris, I was under the impression in was about 3.5 - degrees out at the time of Columbus not 12, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

There are a number of ways to figure latitude at sea, which I have considered in my work:

a.using basic trignometry to locate the north celestial pole, its angle from the horison is the same as ones latitude on Earth.

b. Measuring the angle of the Sun at mid-day.

c. Possibly, the highyly speculative Lodestone method, but I doubt it.

d. A simple bucket of water with a floating gnomon on a disk, to manifest the shadow.

I will clarify the methods of getting to America tonight as the day job is about to kick in.

I also have a working theory about a method using Venus, which I have not completed yet.

Cheers for now.

Ashley, have you looked at my article #2 yet at www.IceAgeCivilizations.com?

It does explain how the ancients measured and mapped the globe, and Crichton Miller demanded credit for the role which his work played in the finding, so "the man" agreed with the finding's validity.

As they could measure the earth from measuring the apparent movement of the constellations along the horizon (due to precession), they obviously could determine east-west distances (longitude), and this is reflected in the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings (Hapgood).

The ancient maps did not have latitude and longitude lines, they had radial spokes from reference points which emanated out, intersecting various geographical lines, such as coastlines at various distances and directions from the reference points, as measured with Crichton's "archaeometer."

The grids of latitude and longitude were drawn onto the maps drawn from radial archaeometer measurements from reference points, for easy designations of specific locations with the applied grid system of latitude and longitude lines.

Hello James.

I have now read your article and found a number of elements of interest. As you said in the last post, your article explains how the ancients ‘could’ have mapped the globe, but it does not prove they did map the globe.

I must be straight with you, I do not regard the work of Charles Hapgood. There was a time when I wished for his claims to be true, but I no longer take this work seriously. His claims require a massive leap of faith and most people involved in the history of cartography shudder when his name is mentioned, primarily because his claims require such a massive leap of faith.

If he had proved the southern details on the Piri-Reis map were not mere works of fiction, I may consider his conclusions, but he did not. The 70's were fertile soil for such new-age ideas but today, science squeezes them dry at every turn.

Like you, many researchers claim the ancient Egyptians mapped the Earth and erected monuments such as pyramids and stone circles as geographical reference points for astronomical measurements, in adherence to a global grid. I have good reason to believe these monuments actually disprove such ideas and this will be laid out in my forthcoming title: “the mark of Rope maker six”.

I cannot get around this simple fact: never has an Egyptian’s body been dug up in Scotland and no Scot’s have ever been found buried in Egypt. Where are the human casualties of this global mapping project? Studying the designs on ancient arts and crafts, only a handful of repeated shapes appear around the Earth and if such a global project took place, it would be measurable in languages, cultural practices and traditions. The social evidence would be jumping out at us, but it does not.

My research leads me to believe: between 3800- 3000 BCE, northern Neolithic societies stopped wandering the landscapes and began settling at their traditional hunting fishing stations. Wild seeds and animals were domesticated and having ac

Ashley, the fantastic accuracy of the east-west distance measurements (longitude) on the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings (Hapgood) indicates that somebody was measuring and mapping the globe in ancient times. No pre-Harrison's-chronometer cartographers could have produced any maps of such accuracies without, of course, a methodology where they could measure the earth by measuring the movements of the stars, and my finding explains how those ancients did it.

There is much evidence of Canaanite presence in Britain around 2000 B.C., I never said the Egyptians traveled there.

The conventional cartographers shudder at the thought of Crichton's work because they can't accept that the ancients could have measured and mapped the earth, doesn't comport with their accepted reading on how things were at around 2000 B.C., but Barry Fell and others have demonstrated the presence of ancient Middle Easterners in the Americas in that timeframe, and the Popol Vuh and the Chilaam Baalam of Central America say that their ancestors sailed from the east, when they "measured the round face of the earth and the arch of the sky," so here you see the methodology of my article #2 poetically described in those ancient Central American documents.

The commonality of this mapping knowledge among various ancient people groups is borne-out with the commonality of the precession numbers in various ancient legends and architectures (see the 1st paragraph of my article #2, among many more examples which I could cite), so, Ashley, how do you explain the commonality of numbers such as 12, 24, 36, 54, 72, 108, and 432, in ancient legends and architectures? Are they all just a coincidence?

And, specifically, what are the "elements of interest" which you see in the finding?

I will answer your last post in to parts. Firstly about Hapgoods work and tomorrow I will address the reoccurring processional numbers in architecture.

The Piri Ries map reveals a stack of errors that falsify claims of its ‘unusual’ accuracy. The methodology used to determine the longitude and latitude of the map has all sorts of errors. The roots of these inaccuracies can be gleaned in Mallery’s "Rediscovery of Lost America" where he states:

“Midway in my research on the old charts and maps, I discovered that the grids marked on them were incorrect. After deciding that these incorrect grids had probably been added much later by persons other than the original draftsman, I removed them and worked out what I consider to be the correct grids. During this time it became obvious that each map or chart was an assembly of several charts and/or maps of contiguous areas and that the separate charts or maps combined to produce a single map were not all drawn to the same zero point."

Mallery’s assumption was that the maps were ‘originally accurate’ and any errors are the result of ‘later copying and compilation’. As a result any error whether part of original source maps or not, is erased during the reconstruction of the original source maps, on which a particular map is based.

Removing errors, regardless of their origin is a standard part of reconstructing the original source maps and it is not surprising that they appear highly accurate. Because no proof is offered that the errors he corrected were the results of copying and the compilation process, these reconstructed source maps may have no basis in fact and may not actually be part of the source map. Dr Hapgood ‘fixed’ the Piri Reis Map in much the same way.

cont....

The apparent accuracy observed in the Piri Reis Map results from the source maps being reconstructed with the assumption that original source maps were accurate. Any errors in it came from copying and compilation. Therefore, errors in the Piri Reis map were eliminated, by fitting it to modern maps, then accounting for the misfits by adjusting the boundaries and separate grids of his hypothesised and unproven source maps. The latitude and longitude system on the Piri Reis map appears accurate because Dr. Hapgood drew the boundaries, and latitude - longitude grids on his source maps in order to eliminate the gross errors exhibited by the Piri Reis map.

Although the Piri Reis Map mentions the existence of various source maps, there lacks any evidence whatsoever for the correctness of boundaries and grids on the alleged source maps drawn by Hapgood. The reconstructed source maps are ‘assumed’ to be accurate because they eliminated many of the errors present in the uncorrected Piri Reis Map. However, there is no proof whether these errors were in the alleged original source maps, or created during compilation.

Dr Hapgood reasoned that ‘his’ hypothetical grids and source maps can remove the errors, and this proves these maps are accurate. He went on to claim that since they are accurate, this proves that the error was created by copying and compilation of the Piri Reis Map and not in the source maps, from which it was made. This means one claim is the proof of the other claim, without any other independent evidence. This result’s in the apparent accuracy of the Piri Reis map, which could just as probably be the result of the assumptions made by Dr. Hapgood, as to the source of the errors in the existing map.

Even with this ‘fixing’, there remain many problems with the Piri Reis Map. The Piri Reis Map is grossly inaccurate and your claims of accuracy apply only to the source maps reconstructed by Dr Hapgood. As I said above, the accuracy of these

The term is precession, not procession, I wouldn't have mentioned it, but that's the second time you've typed it that way.

The vividly accurate contours of shorelines of South America, Antarctica (early in the Ice Age), Africa, and almost all of Europe, on the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, far surpass the precision which mapmakers, up until modern times, made without the precession-mapping capability demonstrated with article #2, and without actually having been to those regions in ancient times (even during the Ice Age), as they navigated and mapped much of the globe, leaving behind the evidences of their presence, demonstrated by Barry Fell and many others.

How do you suppose the Canaanites sailed to the Americas, and to Australia, and to all the other locations where their presence has been noted, if not with the ability to measure their location anywhere on earth by the stars?

I look forward to your comments about the precession numbers in my finding, and in the ancient legends, architectures, and in, not coincidently, our modern mapping and timekeeping system.

Please excuse the spelling error, Microsoft spell checker does not like the word precession.

This has very little to with the content in the Rosslyn Matrix, so rather than wasting any more valuable time, can I suggest you read the following paper entitled:Minds in Ablation: Charting Imaginary Worlds:Pole Shifts, Ice Sheets, and Ancient Sea Kings: A Digression that Simply Got Out of Hand.'

If you find any inaccuracies, I would like you to point them out.

http://www.pibburns.com/smmia5.htm

Do these following reviews refer to the Barry Fell that you refer to?

The NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW (13 March 1977) described AMERICA B. C. as rubbish. Fell's outraged followers leaped into the fray and accused the reviewer of ignoring the hard facts that support such notions... in purely general terms, the facts do deny Fell's reasoning.

--Nigel Davies, VOYAGERS TO THE NEW WORLD (1979), 153 Glyn Daniel, Disney professor of archaeology at the University of Cambridge, in reviewing Fell's book, along with Ivan Van Sertima's... Fell and Van Sertima do not seem to have read, or at least digested... books, fundamental to their work. indeed they write with an abysmal ignorance of the prehistory of Europe and Africa, which I would have found unacceptable among third year undergraduates I had taught in Cambridge, England.
--Felicia Antonelli Holton, "Celts in New England... in 800 B. C.?" EARLY MAN, MAGAZINE OF MODERN ARCHAEOLOGY (Spring 1980), 13

In the New York Times, the great Cambridge archaeologist, Glyn Daniel eviscerated Fell's book as "ignorant rubbish" and dubbed him a "deluded scholar." Other terms used were "self-deluded", "cranks", "fuddy-duddies", whose works are "nonsensical", "fantasy", "archaeological fiction."
--Peter Gorner, CHICAGO TRIBUNE (May 22, 1980)

Ashley, did you ever wonder:

Why was the number 1,760 of units (yards) selected to compose a statute mile?

Why they decided to have 880 units (yards) and 440 units (yards) for the lengths of running events?

Why the circumference of the earth is 21,600 nautical miles (43,200 Great Pyramid base-perimeter lengths)?

Why there are 86,400 (43,200 x 2) seconds in a day?

You can put it together as you study article #2.

I don't support Hapgood's theory of crustal displacement, or pole-shifts of his proposed timing.

The "Diffusion Theory" pioneered by Fell, and picked up by many others, such as www.Equinox-Project.com, has received many favorable reviews since then, as the evidence continues to role in supporting the Diffusion Theory, so you'll just have to deal with that, as you google Phoenicians in America, or Phoenicians in Australia, or Canaanites in Britain, or ancient transoceanic navigating, or other similar cues.

I look forward to your promised answers to my questions in post #46.

Ashley

Actually a very distinctively and uniquely masonic carving exists in Rosslyn Chapel, That of the apprentice mason, kneeling, complete with cable tow around the neck. I find this one difficult to to explain otherwise. Yes of course there is overlap in symbolism, but when a unified theory includes such symbols, in the appropriate places, the symbols tend to support the theory. The "high voltage tower" carving does not disprove the masonic/templar theory of the origin of the chapel, rather it supports it.

It should read "Diffusionist Theory."

Hello Timo.

This is not a 'unique Masonic carving' as you suggest. In fact - the use of a cable tow doesn't appear in a single Masonic ritual until the mid 18th century. So, what could this carving represent, if it has nothing do with Freemasonry.

Rosslyn is dedicated to St Matthew and many, if not most of the carvings illustrate concepts from this biblical book. In Matthew 14: 1-14, he states: "the blind lead the blind". This was a popular phrase in medieval Europe and accounts for all the elements in the carving.

This supports the theory that Rosslyn is no more than a church, and no Masonic carvings exist.

Ashley

Sorry about the tardy reply however, we both it seems have day jobs

In post 42 I said:

"Polaris was circling the pole at 12.5 degrees from its present position"

In post 43 You said:

"Check the accuracy of your statement about Polaris, I was under the impression in was about 3.5 - degrees out at the time of Columbus not 12, I could be wrong, but I don't think so."

As we discussed earlier precession moves the vernal equinox at a rate of 1 degree every 72 years
When you spoke about the Vikings in the 12th Century navigating using latitude you create a time distance related to the migrating celestial pole.
This date was what I was referring to and not Columbus
According to Newton the celestial pole describes an arc of 46.8 degrees every 25920 years
This arc creates a circle of 360 degrees around the ecliptic pole caused by the slow wobble of the earths axis.
We then resolve the problem by subtracting the two dates to find the years elapsed
2006 AD - 1106AD = 900 years
900 years divide by 72 years = 12.5 degrees
Therefore, my statement that "Polaris was circling the pole at 12.5 degrees from its present position",
would appear to be essentially correct.
This now presents a problem for the ancient navigators in accurately finding latitude using a non existent pole star.
An error of 1 degree of arc from the celectial pole = 60 nautical miles or 60 arc minutes on a great circle, does it not?
There must therefore be an alternative method
The effect of precession was often ill considered in most theories and archaeology, I know because I failed to consider it fully in my early work as well.
My explanations at www.crichtonmiller.com I feel go a long way to try to redress my failures and explain these issues for all serious reseachers

Yours

Crichton

Okay Mr Miller, I now see clearly what you were trying to say and I agree with you.

You state: "The effect of precession was often ill considered in most theories and archaeology". I can vouch for this; it took me a long time to get my head around the precessional cycle but when I did, many shadows in world histories were dispelled. In 'The Rosslyn Matrix', I cover many natural cycles and the way our ancestors expressed them in art and crafts. I refer to this one, as the 'Mothership of all Myths'.

You say: "My explanations at www.crichtonmiller.com, I feel go a long way to try to redress my failures and explain these issues for all serious researchers". I do not regard your early mistakes as ‘failures’ because they helped you get to your Celtic Cross discovery, which I must say is highly original, valid concept.

It must be remembered: the steps of scientific progression are carved from failed theories. Thomas Edison invented the light bulb through learning about a series of incorrect filaments.

Bet you learned a fair bit during the early days, when this cycle was beyond your understanding?

Have you integrated the cycle of Venus into your lat’ and long’ theories? Does she appear in your system of calculating longitude?

Except in this case only the kneeling character is blindfolded. Also, not even the Grand Lodge of England really believes (except officially) that the rituals of freemasonry started in 1717. This is perhaps the date from which the original ancient rituals started to be modified. Even the records of the Grand Lodge admit this.

The Masonic rituals (as they were originally performed) likely predate even the Templars. It is more likely that the Templars used information from the secret rituals, to locate treasure in Jerusalem. How else would the Templars know where to look?

The leap to Masonry from Templars only happened due to the Building of Rosslyn. Surely the masons building a non-Christian temple would have to be initiated into the secrets of the commissioners (and threatened with death lest they reveal them)

Too many proofs to discard the theory.

Ashley, did you know that Crichton heartily congratulated me (saying something like "you've done it!"), after I emailed the finding to him?

He demanded credit for the role which his work with the Celtic Cross played in the finding, but now, he won't say why he congratulated me.

And you still haven't answered (as you said you would) the questions of post #46 (as hasn't Crichton when I posed the same questions to him), so I await replies from both of you.

There are 12 units (inches) of a foot, 36 units (inches) of a yard, 60 units (minutes) of an hour, and 24 units (hours) of a day, so from where do you suppose these base 6 denominations came? Do you have any alternative theories to that which I propose in article #2, on which Crichton heartily congratulated me in days gone by (about two years ago)?

The film was crap.

Timo, you stated: "Except in this case only the kneeling character is blindfolded."

For a moment, forget all you preconceived notions and all you have read about this carving. Look at it for yourself and you will see the waist, shoulder and eye levels of both characters are precisely level, therefore they are both the same height. The idea that the front character is kneeling was created for a fanciful book and can be disproved by simply looking at it. The same authors who claimed this is Masonic said the rear character has a cross on his tunic, look at the carving again, where is the cross?

You then say “Also, not even the Grand Lodge of England really believes (except officially) that the rituals of freemasonry started in 1717. This is perhaps the date from which the original ancient rituals started to be modified. Even the records of the Grand Lodge admit this.”

I agree with bits of this statement, but they have even less to do with Rosslyn than Grand Lodge Scotland.

You go on to say “The Masonic rituals (as they were originally performed) likely predate even the Templars.

“Likely” is where this sentence falls into the sea, it is “likely’s" that mislead people into a false perception of history”.

Then you say: “It is more ‘likely’ that the Templars used information from the secret rituals, to locate treasure in Jerusalem. How else would the Templars know where to look?

Another “Likely”! Sounds like your not quite sure? Thats because the authors who say this are also unsure. However, the Templars were to busy forming trading networks, farming and growing food, making weapons and warring, collecting debts and looking after their business to care for treasure hunting. This idea a modern work of fiction with no substantiation.

Finally, you say: “The leap to Masonry from Templars only happened due to the Building of Rosslyn. Surely the masons building a non-Christian temple would have to be init

Mr Cowie

You said:
"Bet you learned a fair bit during the early days, when this cycle was beyond your understanding?"

C.A great deal indeed,as each revelation unfolded the knowledge snapped into place as though a key had unlocked in my mind opening doors to the meaning of the ancient teachings of wisdom and promoting the understanding of the integration of myself and Humanity with Nature, confirming the Intelligence that is un-namable and our inheritance and immortality.
The great and small wheels of cyclical change were suddenly open to me and the meaning of the ambigious words of good and evil, Karma and Original Sin became apparant.
I became free of indoctrination, have no peer group, religion and fear has departed forever.

Have you integrated the cycle of Venus into your lat’ and long’ theories? Does she appear in your system of calculating longitude?

Venus is useful but not essential, although for your research probably has a larger part to play, for all parts of the world are different, having different problems and assets and no technique is unique in its methodology.
The days of linear thought are passing away and the abilty to see things through image in their entirety is extant in those children who are now being born and struggling with modern curriculum
My work is for them in this unstable world as Nature and Societies change and new ways begin for those who can adapt and survive

Hi James:

You asked me: “Ashley, did you know that Crichton heartily congratulated me (saying something like "you've done it!"), after I emailed the finding to him? He demanded credit for the role which his work with the Celtic Cross played in the finding, but now, he won't say why he congratulated me?“

Hate to say it James, but books are often made or broken by the people who endorse them, or add to their conclusions. You seem to be on a mission to get credit from Mr Miller, and it makes no difference to me. His theories stand up on their own and his reluctance to credit you publicly probably grows from his fear of what you will do with his endorsement of your work.

The question you asked me in post #46 has a very simple answer. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the findings you claim are yours in your ‘article2’, can all be found in “Mathematics for the Million/How to Master the Magic of Numbers” by Lancelot Hogben, first published in 1937.

Miller already endorsed the finding, about two years ago (as he has admitted), but now, he won't say why he did endorse it, I guess he just forgot, as he hasn't said why here, but he demanded to be credited for the role which his Celtic Cross work played in the finding, so perhaps, you can find-out from Crichton why he endorsed the finding, and why he demanded to be credited as a role player.

I asked two questions.

So tell us what Hogben wrote which coincides with my article #2, I look forward to some juicy quotes.

Mr Cowie

Sorry. I forgot about the pivotal role played by the green men in the gospels.

I am glad however that you are so certain about history. It is interesting to read how much disagreement there is in this forum alone. Who's truth are we to believe? Is yours correct? Shall I stop learning now?

The original article states "I challenge anybody to show me a Templar symbol in there,". Clearly there are Templar symbols.

I prefer to keep my mind open to all possibilities and will study your input as well as some others that are referenced in the above posts. The more information the better.

I hope we never know everything about history. For me it would diminish the whole experience of discovery.

Ashley, did Hogben say in his book how the length of the ancient Egyptian royal cubit was derived, based upon the rate of precession, and thereby, why the length of the Great Pyramid's base-perimeter just happens to be half a nautical mile, based upon the rate of precession?

If Hogben's book does say all that, then why have all the Egyptologists through the years since 1937 ignored all that, and, to this day, claim that the length of the ancient Egyptian royal cubit was from a pharoah's elbow to finger-tip length, or from six or seven of his hand-widths?

And presuming you can't find some quotes from Hogben's book which substantiate your claim that he long-ago figured-out the ancient mapping scheme, based upon the rate of precession, which is explained in article #2, then why don't you paraphrase what Hogben supposedly said about this matter, to substantiate your claim that he already came-up with the finding, long ago.

Timo.

You asked this group of questions: “Who's truth are we to believe? Is yours correct? Shall I stop learning now?”

Truth is not a static entity and the very word makes me cringe. However, when interpreting the work of Christian church builders in Scotland, you may get closer to their beliefs if you consider the thoughts of Christians. Equally, when interpreting pagan sites, consider Pagan thoughts and beliefs. Why mix them all up, what do you learn from confusion? As far as stopping learning is concerned, that is something you cannot do.

Then you followed up with a wee sarcastic sentence: “Sorry. I forgot about the pivotal role played by the green men in the gospels”.

Like many symbols, this image was used by some Pagan nations and then adopted by Christians. The meaning was altered to fit Christian doctrines, but to claim everyone who used it was Pagan, or their buildings were, means more cathedrals and churches, than not, were Pagan. Do you really believe this is so? Or, shall we ignore the thousands of greenmen carved into the Uk’s great places of worship, to make Rosslyn that little bit more mysterious?

You claim “Clearly there are Templar symbols”.

Where are they? Can you describe one? Why does not a single one of the worlds leading Templar historians even consider this idea? Why do the authors who published these shallow concepts now hide, when asked to stand up and talk?

If you really have an open mind, and enjoy discovery, can I suggest you try this enlightening procedure: Assume, with the same blind conviction you give to all your current ideas, that Rosslyn has nothing to do with Templars, Freemasons, Treasures or Pagan’s. Then ask yourself, “So what else could this little Scottish church be?”

I’d love to hear your open-minded answers and who knows, we may both learn something new.

James

You asked me--- "so, Ashley, how do you explain the commonality of numbers such as 12, 24, 36, 54, 72, 108, and 432, in ancient legends and architectures?

My answer to this question is written in a single sentence in 'The Rosslyn Matrix' and detailed in my Forth coming book entitled: 'The Mark of Rope Maker Six'. However, Hogben, in his “Mathematics for the Million" proposes a simple reason for the commonality of numbers such as 12, 24, 36, 54, 72, 108, and 432, in ancient legends and architectures. My theories are similar to his, but I relate his down to Earth systems, to the measurable achievements of the Uk’s Neolithic societies.

I have analysed your ancient mapping scheme, based upon the rate of precession, but it is not something I want to consider. Its very creative thinking, but there are simpler reasons for these numbers appearing, which fit better with my world view.

If there is something "simpler" than the article #2 explanation for the origin of our modern mapping and timekeeping system, which explains the thinking behind the establishment of the dimensions for the Great Pyramid, and which provides the framework to explain the proliferation of precession numbers in various ancient legends and architectures from seemingly disparate people-groups, then I'd like to see it.

You say you have it, but of course, so does Crichton, he's keeping "it" secret.

I think almost all of the myths about the chapel are rubbish. I think this guy here has the right idea.

its all a hoax

http://www.rosslynhoax.com

I agree.

Ashley, you say, "my answer to this question (see top of post #68) is written in a single sentence in The Rosslyn Matrix," so please quote that sentence for us, so we can see if there is actually any meat there.

You never did say what is Hogben's theory about why the precession numbers are in various ancient legends and architectures from seemingly disparate people-groups, so please relate that, so we can see if there's any meat there, as you say that your theory is "similar to his."

James

6, 12, 24, 36, 54, 72.... were numbers favoured by our ancestors because: basket makers, fishnet makers, creative weavers and builders could easily multiply and divide them, so to make squares.

Hogben details ancient methods of recording passing time. He describes the Egyptian method of monitoring the sun shadow and dividing circles into 360 divisions, giving rise to the modern map system.

Neither hogben or I considered your scheme, its all yours.

Ashley, why do you suppose they chose 360 divisions for a circle? Of course, article #2 explains this.

Why does your "worldview" cause you to "not want to consider" the explanation in article #2? I sincerely don't understand your thinking here.

You say that my finding is "creative," but that there's a "simpler explanation," which you have cited, but don't you think my finding has much more explanatory power, and is a tight and logical package, compared to citing basket weaving and fish-net making methodologies?

I don't mean to belittle your idea at all, I'm just asking the question.

1. Because using a number with many factors is practical for maths, trading and commercial purposes. 60 has more than any other manageable number and through time, became most favoured.

2. For the same reasons scientists treat your findings like cryptonite.(your words)

3. No I don't.

1) So why didn't they divide the circle into 60 divisions, rather than 360 divisions?

2) Why is the finding like kryptonite to you? I have never understood this. Please indulge me and explain this in some depth, I really would appreciate it.

3) Basket-weaving and fish-net-making methodologies don't explain the astronomically-derived dimensions of the Great Pyramid, nor provide a framework to explain how the ancients were able to navigate smartly across the oceans, so I don't see why you gave that answer, therefore, once again please indulge me, and say why you gave that answer.

Ashley, what I find most interesting in the article above about your book The Rosslyn Matrix is that you note the 15 degrees of longitude, depicted by the etching, which is a representation of 1 hour, by solar time, as well as, it's a representation of 1,080 years of precession time, and because you rightly surmise that the etching indicates mathematical navigation savvy, it follows that savvy could well be due to the methodology which is embodied in the astronomically-derived dimensions of the Great Pyramid.

I had forgotten this little nugget, Nicolo Zeno, who compiled ancient source maps to draw-up the Zeno Map, which is one of the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings noted by Hapgood, was commissioned by Henry Sinclair in the late 1300's to navigate him from the Orkneys to Oak Island, off the eastern coast of Canada.

The Zeno Map shows the North Atlantic and the landmasses there-about with anomalous accuracy (for that time), so this is quite obviously why Zeno was the man selected by Sinclair to lead the voyage across the Atlantic to Oak Island.

The contention that the St Clairs were anti Templar is absurd.#32

St Clairs were Templar from the first inception of the Order, Google it.

The contributors who say there is nothing Templar or Masonic in Roslin clearly have no knowledge of either.

There are dozens of references throughout the building
eg the two knights on one horse the design on the seal of the Templars being fairly obvious.
The apprentice pillar being the most famous.
The carvings depicting the tale of the death of Hiram are clear to every freemason.
The Royal Arch Triple Tau is also represented.
The death mask of King Robert the Bruce the founder of the Royal Order of Scotland the highest order in freemasonry the Heridom of Kilwinning being another, Google that too.

Their secrets are hidden in plain view for those who know what they are looking at.

The first Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland was William St Clair of Roslin 1736-37 his family being the hereditary Grand Masters.

The Mystic Rose of Sharon is a familiar symbol to Freemasons being prominant in the Scottish Rite degrees as well as the York Rite.

The earliest Templar grave markers had no inscriptions bar the traced outline of their sword refecting their vows.
Many fine examples can also be seen in Kilmartin churchyard in Argyle.

The reason the Templar coffin is so short was because the skull and the long bones of the legs were placed upon the chest in the familiar death's head or skull and crossed bones ie the emblems of mortality.
I well remember the explanation the the young lady guide at Hamilton Mausoleum gave to explain this phenomenon.
The Duke of Hamilton had bought a very rare Egyptian granite coffin but when he came to be interred it was found to be too small to accept the body of the late Duke, so his head and legs were cut off to fit.
This young lady had been employed when the local authorities sacked the previous gui

35# Ashley
The Mystic Rose Of Sharon and the Lilly Of The Valley are familiar symbols to freemasons represented in both the Ancient Scottish Rite and the York rite degrees.

35# Ashley
The Rose is a common symbol (eg. the rose window)in Templar inspired Gothic architecture all over Europe, built during the middle ages, when the Templars were at their highest point.

i would also point out that the Templars did not just disappear as is so often reported, very few were actually captured, being forewarned at the outset from the very highest sources.

In Portugal the order simply changed its name and continued on unmolested, note the cross pate on the sails of Columbus' ships.

In Germany the Teutonic Knights turned up in court, in full armour, armed to the teeth, demanded the right of trial by combat, and curiously, were aquited.

In Scotland knights, from the continent and from home, obtained sanctuary from the excommunicated King Robert The Bruce and helped save his Kingdom from Edward II's invasions.
A grateful King Robert rewarded them with lands in Ayrshire(Kilwinning) and Argyle(Kilmartin) the highest concentration of Templar graves to be found in Europe, on the Scottish West Coast.

As an interesting footnote the Grand Lodge of England was petitioned in 1716, the year after the fall of the Royal House of Stuart, and formed the Premier Grand Lodge of England in 1717, coincidence?

Elsewhere many of the remaining Templars Knights joined their old rivals the Knights Hospitaler of St John who were granted their lands and titles. This Order continued until their last stronghold in Malta was betrayed by its French Knights to Napoleon and his army.

Cromwell's forces sacked Roslin Castle and churches all over the country but left Roslin Chapel intact, why?
Prince Albert, a keen freemason, and Queen Victoria also visited the Chapel before there was even a decent road to reach it.
As far as I'm aware none of the above, like me, had ever read Dan Brown's pot boiler or watched the movie.

I'am on business at the moment Hawkayethenu, but I will reply to each of your claims tommorrow night. I'am going to suggest to you that 95-99% of what you have written is romantic myth, without a single scrap of tangible evidence to support it.

Watch this space.

82# Ashley
Breath bated, looking forward to your rebuttal! 95-99% eh?

Hey Ashley, (in case you couldn't tell) post #76 is directed to you.

"Rosslyn Chapel was built 136 years after the Templars were dissolved. The St Clair family actually testified against the Templars in Scotland and no evidence exists to suggest any St Clair’s were ever Templars."

No St Clairs were ever Templars?

From:
A Brief History of the Crusades and The Knights Templar
by the Honorable Sir Charles S. Davis III, GCTJ, Prior of St. Clair

I Quote:

>>>Nine Knights were led by Hugues de Payen, a French and Scottish nobleman. This was de Payen's second visit to Jerusalem, having been in the First Crusade and having visited Jerusalem again in 1104. Now de Payen had returned, with his eight other warrior monks, financed by a few French nobles (the Duke of Champagne, Count de Anjou, Count de Gisors and Count de Flanders) and his Scottish father-in-law, Henri St. Clair, the Baron of Roslyn.

By either circumstance or design (this is hotly debated as you will see), the stables Hugues de Payne chose to live in were exactly adjoining the remains of the old Jewish Temple of Jerusalem, which had been destroyed by the Romans in about 300 AD. Because of their living quarters and their vow of poverty, these warrior monks became known as the "Poor Knights of Christ at the Temple of Jerusalem" and, more popularly, as the "The Knights Templar".<<<

Not only were they Templars, they helped to found the order in the first place!
The first Grand Master of the Temple was married to a St Clair of Roslyn.

Some may doubt the Templar connections of King Robert the Bruce, but the before the battle of Bannockburn where did he choose to stay the night?
The Templar preceptory of Torphichen 10 minutes by car from the royal palace of Linlithgow. It stands there intact to this day.

In his book 'The Head Of God' Keith Laidler surmised that the head of Jesus was buried under the floor of the Chapel.
( no I don't believe it either!)
His clin

I'll keep this brief, then I'am away.
You said:----
The contention that the St Clairs were anti Templar is absurd.

I say:---
A: So was the idea of landing a probe on Mars.

St Clairs were Templar from the first inception of the Order, Google it.

A: Google is 50% of the problem, lets stick to historical works written around the time of the events.

The contributors who say there is nothing Templar or Masonic in Roslin clearly have no knowledge of either.

A: Possibly the ability to cut through the layes of tripe written about both?

There are dozens of references throughout the building

A: I suggest there are none.

eg the two knights on one horse the design on the seal of the Templars being fairly obvious.

A: Do you refer to the single knight on a horse, with a young child standing behind, holding a cross?

The apprentice pillar being the most famous.

A: No Templar symbols appear on this pillar, unless ofcourse you can point one out?

The carvings depicting the tale of the death of Hiram are clear to every freemason.

This idea was created in 1996 to fit a sensationalist book, do you have on older reference?

The Royal Arch Triple Tau is also represented.

This idea was created in 1996 to fit the same sensationalist book, do you have an older reference? I can show you an accurate layout of Mickey Mouse smoking a cigar, drawn between the pillars, using the same artistic licence, would you like to see it?

You say---
The death mask of King Robert the Bruce the founder of the Royal Order of Scotland the highest order in freemasonry the Heridom of Kilwinning being another, Google that too.

I say---

A:This idea is very modern and Google is the only place you will find it recorded. With the same amount of reason, it is probably the man who cleaned out the masons toilet during the building.

Their secrets are hidden in plain view for those who know what they are looking at.

A:Possibly for all those who believe everything they have been told. The meanings of the carvings are further lost every time we look for secrets. In 1446-1482 everyone would have been fully aware of the messages. At a time before books these were the visual aids of the churchmen.

The first Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Scotland was William St Clair of Roslin 1736-37 his family being the hereditary Grand Masters.

A:In the 17th century, the stone masons of Scotland were involved in ever more building disputes and legal battles. They, identified the StClairs as a vessel to represent them in courts and in these disputes. They petitioned the StClairs twice and told them what they needed to hear. Why would they have had to petition hereditary masters? All evidence to their hereditary role as masters of the craft was burned in the 1555 fire at Rosslyn Castle. Quite convenient I would say?

The Mystic Rose of Sharon is a familiar symbol to Freemasons being prominant in the Scottish Rite degrees as well as the York Rite.

A:The cult of the Virgin Mary was ripping around Catholic Europe at the time of building, isn’t that a more reasonable idea than an order, which was founded over two century’s later?

The earliest Templar grave markers had no inscriptions bar the traced outline of their sword refecting their vows. Many fine examples can also be seen in Kilmartin churchyard in Argyle.

A:Not a single grave in Kilmartin is Templar, not one. Thi

>>>I will now broaden my challange, and go as far as to say, ‘I challenge anyone to point out a Pagan symbol in Rosslyn’, my assertion being Rosslyn is wholly Christian.<<<

Happy to oblige Ashley.
Look at the Aprentice pillar. At its base, a salamander consuming its own tail. A Norse depection of eternity, life without end, I believe, picked up by the early christian celts eg on the Celtic Cross.

Of course I could just as easily pick any old church for pagan images.
The Romans had a way with pagan icons did they not? Sol Invicta (Sunday?), Mithra, Beltane, etc
Looking at the ceiling of the Chapel I was struck by how similar it looked to the decoration on the ceilings of Egyptian royal tombs.

I would commend to you the works of Past Master bro. James McKay Munro. of Lodge Rosslyn St Clair No 606 sc as a cornucopia of information on Rosslyn Chapel in the Scottish masonic publication 'The Ashlar'
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/ashlar.htm

You say:---
I well remember the explanation the young lady guide at Hamilton Mausoleum gave to explain this phenomenon. The Duke of Hamilton had bought a very rare Egyptian granite coffin but when he came to be interred it was found to be too small to accept the body of the late Duke, so his head and legs were cut off to fit. This young lady had been employed when the local authorities sacked the previous guide for refusing to divulge the secrets of the 33 degress represented in the building to non-qualified freemasons.

A:That young lady was good at her job, tourists would love that one.

The Rose is a common symbol (eg. the rose window)in Templar inspired Gothic architecture all over Europe, built during the middle ages, when the Templars were at their highest point.

A:Do you mean Geometrically derived Rose Windows? Why Templar? Were the Templars the only crusaders who learned the skills of creating pointed arches and such windows? Did no other crusaders communicate with the Suffi geometers? I think this is a classic example of limiting historical interpretations to those people you want to fit a predetermined theory.

I would also point out that the Templars did not just disappear as is so often reported, very few were actually captured, being forewarned at the outset from the very highest sources.

A:This 2% of the 5% I agree with you on.

In Portugal the order simply changed its name and continued on unmolested, note the cross pate on the sails of Columbus' ships.

A There it is, the old Knights of Christ Chestnut. So Columbus was a Templar was he. I think this is comic history and such a man had more to do than live out the values of a bust-failed order.

In Germany the Teutonic Knights turned up in court, in full armour, armed to the teeth, demanded the right of trial by combat, and curiously, were aquited.

A:I would have acquitted them also, for fear of getting a thrashing. Why does this make them Templa

You say----
In Scotland knights, from the continent and from home, obtained sanctuary from the excommunicated King Robert The Bruce and helped save his Kingdom from Edward II's invasions.

A: Read Mackey’s,’The Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry’ the author accounts when this legend first appeared. He accounts who created this legend and the reasons he did it. It was a Freemason from Kilwinning around the beginning of the 18th century.

A grateful King Robert rewarded them with lands in Ayrshire (Kilwinning) and Argyle (Kilmartin) the highest concentration of Templar graves to be found in Europe, on the Scottish West Coast.

A: Where did this information come from? I'd bet, The Temple and the Lodge in the late eighties?

As an interesting footnote the Grand Lodge of England was petitioned in 1716, the year after the fall of the Royal House of Stuart, and formed the Premier Grand Lodge of England in 1717, coincidence?

A: Yes it was petitioned in 1716. This is the other 3% of what I agree with. However, yes, it’s a coincidence. Europe was alive with orders and clubs at this time and they were being opened and closed by the week.

Elsewhere many of the remaining Templars Knights joined their old rivals the Knights Hospitaler of St John who were granted their lands and titles. This Order continued until their last stronghold in Malta was betrayed by its French Knights to Napoleon and his army.

A: You have answered this one for me. Old knights Templar became Hospitlers. Not even the words look the same to me. If I work for Asda then get a job for the coop, does this mean I'am become a covert Asda employee, or a new coop employee?

Cromwell's forces sacked Roslin Castle and churches all over the country but left Roslin Chapel intact, why?

A: This is a fantastic question for which I have no sure answer, but I’d rather keep my mind open than tie the reason into a structured template. Saying that, he tied up hi

Tessa.

To see your words, was not unlike gazing at a droplet of rose dew plopping onto the surface of a gritty field puddle.

Totally 'terra firma'. As Sherlock said, when everything is pealed away from a subject that cannot be, then you are left with that, which can.

Its great to hear from you lass and I'll send you an e-mail on Monday with my numbers. It'll be great to get the craic.

nite nite.

You gave a lenghthly quote from:

A Brief History of the Crusades and The Knights Templar by the Honorable Sir Charles S. Davis III, GCTJ, Prior of St. Clair.

A: Please tell me when this was written? And where did his source information was from? I bet it was a modern Templar somewhere in America and he has no source barr that in......'Temple and the Lodge', written in the eighties and falling appart by the day.

Some may doubt the Templar connections of King Robert the Bruce, but the before the battle of Bannockburn where did he choose to stay the night?
The Templar preceptory of Torphichen 10 minutes by car from the royal palace of Linlithgow. It stands there intact to this day.

A:That's a Hospitlar building?

Look at the Aprentice pillar. At its base, a salamander consuming its own tail. A Norse depection of eternity, life without end, I believe, picked up by the early christian celts eg on the Celtic Cross. Of course I could just as easily pick any old church for pagan images.

A: This is completely incorrect, it displays eight winged dragons, holding each others tails in their mouths. I’ll give you three days to check this and then I will send you a biblical reference to account for this.

The Romans had a way with pagan icons did they not? Sol Invicta (Sunday?), Mithra, Beltane, etc
Looking at the ceiling of the Chapel I was struck by how similar it looked to the decoration on the ceilings of Egyptian royal tombs.

A:I was struck at how many other Catholic building display these symbols.

I would commend to you the works of Past Master bro. James McKay Munro. of Lodge Rosslyn St Clair No 606 sc as a cornucopia of information on Rosslyn Chapel in the Scottish masonic publication 'The Ashlar'.

A:I would commend you to the work of the Grand archivist at Grand Lodge Edinburgh -Brother Robert Cooper- whos book being release this week entitled ‘The Rosslyn Hoax’, proves the public and Freemasons have

Why William St Clair of Roslin as first Grand Master?
He wasn't even a freemason and had to be initiated into the order to take the position.
The St Clair connection and the Bruce eg @
http://www.templarhistory.com/mts.html

The dragon v salamander?
I couldnt make out the wings on your dragons(of Neifelheim?).
First time I saw them I thought they were the snakes of the masonic apron
clasp.ie the snake belt.

The dragon breathes fire, the salamander lives in fire, ie eternal hell and damnation at the base of the pillar.
Around the pillar the branches of the tree of life, the Norse Yggdrasil tree, the world ash, open up to the canopy of heaven, connecting heaven and hell.
At the top the twelve constellations of the zodiac, heaven.

I first saw this as a child in the 70's on a school trip. Then the story of the apprentice and the master mason was told as it had been for over 300 years.The carved heads of both were there with the 'apprentice' ,even then,sporting a nasty gash on his forehead.

Now from there being no Templar/masonic sybols, they were put there deliberately in the last thirty years, presumably to get B+L+L, Brown et al started and boost the Scottish tourist industry?

As for Bro. Cooper you have me at a disadvantage, having read his work, as I have not been aware of his publications.
The title of this book is bound to shift a few copies though.
Frankly when I checked his published credentials I was dubious.
Apart from blue lodges, although I'm sure his complete cv is more impressive, his only claim is to be a member of Quator Coronati.
I understand it still insists Freemaonry arrived blinking into the world, fully formed, as the Grand Lodge of England in the Goose and Gridiron pub 1717, the rest of the world then copied them.

The Tree of Yggdrasil is an allegory for the axis of the earth, which would wobble once in 25,920 years, as the earth spins like a gyroscope in space, and so, the ancients could measure and map the globe, knowing this, using the methodology which I've described in article #2.

A wide variety of ancient people-groups were aware of this precession, as pointed out by Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend in their ground-breaking work, Hamlet's Mill, which explores the prevalence of precession numbers in ancient legends from various parts of the world.

The ancients of "the Cassiterides" were obviously aware of this too, as there in Rosslyn Chapel is an accurately scaled "lozenge" representing 15 degrees (as noted by Cowie) of precession, or 2,160 years, the length of a zodiac age (25,920 years/12 zodiac ages), and Ralph Ellis has demonstrated that Stonehenge was a precession clock, so those ancients knew what the ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, and Canaanites knew about how to measure the earth from the rate of precession.

Henry Sinclair hired Zeno to navigate him to Oak Island Canada because Zeno had maps from the ancient sea kings, which he compiled for his Zeno Map, this map (as Sinclair knew) was anomalously accurate for the 1300's A.D., not to be matched until the 1700's with the invention of Harisson's chronometer, so off they went with confidence, knowing that the source maps for the Zeno Maps were drawn by ancients who could "measure the round face of the earth and the arch of the sky."

87#Ashley
A: Do you refer to the single knight on a horse, with a young child standing behind, holding a cross?

The young child holding the cross is St Margaret holding the Holyrood.

btw. My interest in the Templars was spawned on a visit to Cambeltown in the late 80's when a masonic friend suggested we stop at a ruined churchyard by the road.

In it he showed us curious flat gravestones with crudely traced engravings of templar patterned swords but no inscription, similar to some of those I recently saw in Kilmartin, but others also had masonic symbols eg set square, compasses, death's head.

That set me off, To Mother Kilwinning No.0. and to Connongate Kilwinning amongst many others, Hamilton mausoleum, to the Holy Royal Arch, The Cryptic Royal and Select Masters, Royal Ark Mariners, Red Cross of Constantine, Knights Templar, Knight Templar Priests, and the Rose Croix rituals.

Read 'Beyond the Craft', Scottish edition.
for a rough outline.
From there I wondered where this ritual came from. I also joined these orders in England and was struck by the differences or ommisions in their ritual, which make some of their degrees appear nonsense, and asked why this was done.

The books which you ridicule have also given me cause to smile, but whereas the main themes of most of these are clearly nonsense, the material they quote from their bibliographies I found quite illuminating.
eg read again 'The Temple and the Lodge' but in the knowledge that the Templars in Scotland had The House of Stuart as their benefactors and it makes more interesting reading.

Ashley, as you say that the vertical lines in the four lozenges (which depict different latitude swaths) represent a meridian which is through the center of a fifteen degree swath of longitude (through the four latitude swaths), and as we know that folks from five hundred years ago could measure latitude, but certainly not longitude, then how do you propose that they accurately depicted the angles of longitude on either side of the meridian of the four lozenges?

And how do you propose that they could pinpoint the North Pole (longitude measuring), when such ostensibly was not possible until the 1750's with the implementation of Harrison's chronometer?

Has anyone heard of a theory regarding how old is the ancient vault which was walled-off (apparently the oldest section of the site)?

Because Fomorians, Phoenicians, Gaels, and Danites, inhabited this region in ancient times, is there any indication that the vault behind the wall is from one those people-groups?

Ashley, keep up the good work and if I can help please advise. I have discussed your find with a group of friends (THOR) in the USA that are researching an unusual artifact we have found in Ohio and its relation to the same subject you are working on.
The ancient drawing you have is a form of explaining longitude and latitude used by the ancients for navigating or just determining where they were on the earth from their home.
I have read all the comments to your post and will try to sumarize my 30 years of research.
The ancients used a sun dial to navigate and determine their position on the earth.
The position of the sun gave them latitude. The actual position of the moon compared to its pre-determined position gave them longitude.
The ancients (bronze age 3000 - 1000 BC) recorded these readings in the form of (sun god symbols) or checker board squares which are mostly found on dolmens (Large stones supported by smaller stones).
I will be giving a lecture in October in Michigan at the AAAPF conference which will include all the detail information about this method of ancient navigation. It will include the various forms of sun dials found in my research and factual information about this subject.
Feel free to contact me with any questions.

Hello William,

The sponsor of your AAAPF meetings, I presume, is Wayne May of the Ancient American magazine.

I sent Wayne copies of my new book and DVD, both entitled Ice Age Civilizations, several weeks ago, but I've had no response from him.

Next time you talk to him, please ask him if he has inspected the material.

Thanks very for your support much William.

I stayed in Holland in Michigan for a while and spent a couple of months camping in the Blackfoot lands(Montana). Good luck with your lecture, its nice to read your sensible ideas about sundials, solar and lunar observations.

Hey, my Dad grew-up in Holland, Michigan, and did his undergrad work there at Hope College, beautiful place, great fruit in the summertime.

William's ideas may be sensible, as far as sundials and lunar and solar observations are concerned, but please tell me how those can accurately determine true north (not magnetic north).

102#James
This link gives an explanation on how to determine true North using the sun compass.
This was demonstated some time ago by a reconstruction of a Viking trip to the Scottish Outer Hebrides from Norway using a replica longship navigated by sun compass.
All went remarkably well until the skies clouded over!
http://members.aol.com/jvlambert/Norman/SunCompass.htm

To #103

That is a clever methodology, but which doesn't provide a means to measure east-west distances (longitude), and therefore, doesn't allow one to measure the dimensions of the earth.

James - I will remind Wayne as you requested. He has published a couple short articles in his magazine about the Ohio Rock and the THOR group. I am sure he will include some of the resent findings the THOR group has found in future issues after the Oct. AAAPF conference.
I will try to explain the simple method the ancients used to determine true north.
They would make a circle of stones with an observation stone in the center of the circle.
Standing on the center stone they would observe the sun rise and set daily and track this with a moving stone. When the sun appeared to stop moving south on its rise and set they would highlight the southern stones in the circle. (winter soltice). When the sun appeared to stop moving north on its rise and set they would highlight the northern stones in the circle. (summer soltice). Continuing to monitor the sun rise and set untill it rose and set at the midpoint stones in the circle (half way from the rise and set) (Day of the equanox) a line was made between the east and west stones. This line was true north/south.

The Vikings and other sea going ancients would pre-mark the outer edge of their ship to provide them with a fixed reference when at sea. They would stand in the center of the ship and observe where the sun rose and set on the edge of their ship to continue sailing in a desired direction when no land was visable. The center mask was like the gnomen in a sun dial. This information is very apparent at the Viking ship circle (Ales Stenar, Sweeden) as well as the 30 stone ship circles on the island of Gotland. Much of the current work is being published by B. G. Lind (archeoligest) working at the Ales Stenar site.
It was easy for the ancients to determine their latitude by observing the sun's position at high noon with a sun dial such as an astrolabe. High noon was easy to establish by observing and measuring the length of the shadow cast by the gnomen. When the shadow reached i

All
Correction to the last posting on true north south. When a line was made east/west to the rise and set of the sun the true north was a line 90 degrees from the east west line.
sorry for the confusion.
In that I reached the word capacity in the last posting I will include the items and artifacts that will be discussed in the Oct. AAAPF conference in my presentation.
1- Sun Dial from Ohio (USA) used for making a copper sun dial.
2- Nebra Sky Disc (Germany) used for tracking moons position in 18.6 year cycle.
3 - Flail and Scepter (Egypt) used for latitude and longitude navigation.
4 - Cup and Beads (Peru) Cup used for latitude, beads used for longitude.
5 - Deltoton sun dial assembly (Coba, Mexico) five piece sun dial assembly used for latitude and longitude calculation.
6 - Astrolabe (Spain and South America) used for latitude readings.
7 - Antikythera Mechanism (Meditrainian sea) used to track daily position of moon for longitude reading.
8 - Newark, Ohio Holy stone, cup and Bob (USA) used for tracking latitude and recording of home latitude (26.4 degrees)
9 - Mattox stone (Kentucky, USA and Peru) small hand held stone sun dial for latitude and longitude calculation.
10 - Sun dial bases (Germany, Sweeden and USA) used to track position of moon in relation to the sun.
11 - Catalian Atlas disc (Portugal) Used for recording the pre-determined position of the moon for longitude calculation.
12 - Other items covered are earthworks at Poverty Point USA (ancient ship building site), Rock drawing in Labyrinthina, Peru explaining the meeting of two travelers who are trading copper for gold. one from Egypt and one from 26.4 latitude and 56 degree longitude. Dolmens 35 which have been found with sun god symbols showing the home location of the early copper traders.
I am a retired engineer and have not published any work and have no plans at this time to do so. My interest in this is

But with the methodology you describe, they couldn't pinpoint the location of the North Pole (they could only tell its direction), so they didn't have a grip on astronomically-derived measurements of east-west distances, which the "Celtic Cross," plus the methodology of article #2, could achieve.

William, have the Bush Barrow (near Stonhenge) and Clandon Barrow (near Dorchester) gold lozenges or the Norfolk rectangle been considered in the context of navigation? I believe they are associated with 4000 yr old burials in England & analysis of their gold indicated a place of origin in Macedonia or Greece.

Hecataeus wrote that the early Greeks traveled to the Hyperboreans every 19 years (metonic cycle), to a circular sun temple there (Stonehenge?).

Ashley,
Don't disappear into the great unknown again!
Get in touch.
tessafindlay@hotmail.com

James and Ashley
I have been to stonehenge, however it was some years ago. If you study stonehenge closely you will see it has 30 windows under the horrozontal supported stones. These windows would have observers under each to observe the position of the moon in its lunar 29.61 day cycle arround the earth. The trench dug outside the circle would allow water to provide a reflective surface for the observer to view the moon at noon on the day of the equanox in order to set the ancient clock. The moon would gain 12.5 degrees each day or appear in a new window each day. All the ancients needed was to count the days and they could predict the window the moon would appear in. All of these stone circles were to observe and record the moons position in relation to the sun. The ancients used a 360 day clock instead of 365. On the day of the equanox they added 5 days or the sixth each 4 years in order to keep the sun and moon in sequence for navigation.
The ancients knew the earth was round and the distance arround the earth. They used simple math to calculate this. An example of this is as follows. At Stonehenge they would establish they were on the 51 degree latitude on the day of the equanox. If they traveled north to Banbury (about 68 miles) They would be at the 52 degree latitude. At Stonehenge the angle generated by pointing a stick toward the sun and the north south pole axis would be 51 degrees. At Banbury this angle would be 52 degrees. If one degree is approx. 68 miles then 10 degrees is about 680 miles, and 90 degrees is about 6120 miles or the distance from the equator to the north pole. This distance times 4 would equal the approx. distance arround the earth (24,480 miles).
The stone circles in all parts of the world have one thing in common. (tracking the moon for longitudnal navigation). The Newark, Ohio octogon mound is for tracking the moon in its 18.6 solar cycle.
This method of navigating with a sun dial was lost when t

James and Ashley
The ancients used the 360 day year and made a 5 or 6 day adjustment each year to keep in time with the moon. The 29.531 days it took the moon to circle the earth was rounded to 30 days in a month or 360 days in a year.
It seem strange that the degrees of measurement arround the earth are 360 also. This 360 degrees in a circle comes from the understanding of phi and other mathmatics which the ancients were very familiar with.
William

William, the reason for a meaningful 360 degrees of the circle of the earth is inherent to my article #2, have you read it, and please, what are your comments about it?

And I don't think the methodology you describe could come anywhere close to the .5% error of the "Celtic Cross" method, with the astronomy, geometry, and arithmetic in article #2.

And there is no indication that anyone accurately measured the dimensions of the earth before the implementation of Harrison's chronometer in the 1750's, except the evidence of accurate east-west distances in the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, and that the Great Pyramid is a 1/43,200th miniaturization of the dimensions of the earth, as achieved with that astronomy, geometry, and arithmetic of article #2.

James
I have not read you work, however I did see your introduction to the work. I have been in contact with the University of Fla. on sea level changes after the last ice age. New studys on peat bogg indicate a different story on sea levels in many parts of the world. In many parts the level dropped because of the melting mountain fresh water ice running into the saline sea water which forced the sea pack ice to melt and allow 7% more water in the same volume. Their are many new charts which will show the averave sea level world wide were 7 ft. higher than they are today and then at about 5000 BC the sea levels were at their lowest which on average was only 25 ft. Since then the sea has been slowly rising.
My interest in this is to show the ancient anchors found at Port Richie, Fla are part of the bronze age navigators that sailed accross Fla. on their return trip to the old world.
As for the ancients understanding math and earth size as well as other bodies in the solar system, the work being completed at the octogan mounds in Newark, Ohio by two astronomers from Earlam College indicates a very high degree af measurment from the ancients. The four gold top hats found in Europe show the ancients knew the position of the moon on every day of its 18.6 year cycle.
You may wish to contact Dr. Christine Pellech of Austria (christine.pellech@chello.at), she is a member of our THOR group and author of Migration and Diffusion.
Send me a note at wmsmithrock1@yahoo.com and I will send you photos of ancient navigation tools which may add to your work. I will try to get your book and then be able to provide more assistance.
best regards
William

William, so far on this thread, I have directly or indirectly asked Ashley Cowie, Crichton Miller (who endorsed article #2 as the missing piece of the ancient mapping puzzle, who now has gone wobbly), and you, whether or not any of you can cite any flaw in the analysis of the ancient mapping scheme explained as article #2 at http://www.IceAgeCivilizations.com, but so far, no responses dealing explicity with the material in that article.

So since no one has cited any flaw in it, I'll have to take that has an endorsement of the finding, unless you have some reason, William, to say otherwise.

Mark (and all), I'll say it another way, can anyone give me an alternative explanation for how the Great Pyramid was designed to have a base-perimeter-length of half a nautical mile, and that base-perimeter-length of the Great Pyramid, divided by 1,760 (4 sides x 440 royal cubits per side), just happens to equal the length of the royal cubit (20.632 inches)?

If there are no alternative explanations, then we are supposed to chalk it up to coincidence?

I await your response.

William re your post 114 - could you please pass on your reference for "the four gold top hats found in Europe" for tracking moon positions, I would like to know more about these objects. & couldn't turn up anything for myself from your description.

re the "Viking sun disk" I think I have spotted the reproduction of one of these navigational aids painted on a war shield collected in Astrolabe Bay, New Guinea c.1880. Anybody interested?

Found the "hats" - went a bit more lateral in my googling & turned them up, thank you for the introduction. See there is a connection with the gold cape found in Wales with a suggested Egyptian connection, so a lot to follow up here.

Post #116 should have read to William (and all), not to Mark (and all), right William (and all)?

And Valerie, there was much navigating and mining ongoing by the Sidonians (Phoenicians) around Australia and New Guinea in ancient times, but Norsemen there is news to me, so do you suppose the "Viking Sun Disk" may be of the Phoenicians?

Valerie, James and All
Valerie - Glad you found the top hats used by the Babalonians for tracking the moon. If you are still looking for moon tracking, look at the Nebra disc found in Germany (It is not what it is said to be on the net) The round bronze disc has 40 holes on the outer edge for 360 degree measurement of the earth, The three large figures in the center are not sun, earth and ship - they are the three phases of the moon full, quarter and cresent. The 30 small dots on the disc are the moon's position in a lunar month of 29.6 days. The arcs on each side of the disc represent the 79 degrees of appature variance on the moon rise and set in its 18.6 year cycle. Keep in mind that this was found in a small well ike pit on top of a hill that was next to a large hill that blocked out the sun at sun set on the day of the equanox. This allowed longer observation of the moon on that day.
Additional information about how the ancients tracked the moon is apparent at Stonehenge. Their are 30 windows created by the horrizontal lentals in the great stone circle and a trench arround the structure. By standing in the center of the circle and looking into the water that was collected in the outer trench you would be able to identify the window that showed the moon's reflected position. Additional information on moon tracking can be found at the Newark, Ohio octagon mound site where the 18.6 year cycle of the moon was documented.
I am also aware of 6 sun dial bases that have been found for tracking the moon (1-Sweeden. 1-Austria, 1-Germany, 1-Spruce Hill, Ohio, USA, 1- Hot Springs, Arkanasas, USA, and 1-Coba, Mexico.
Contrary to what many think about the ancients knowing how to navigate longitude before the crhonometer in the 1700s The Catalian Atlas disc from a Portugal map dating 1345 AD has 8 of its 17 rings explaining the variables of the moon for navigation.
Valerie I will send a responce to James seperate and cover the Egypt

Are you saying that from the "variables of the moon" they were able to measure east-west distances? If that is what you are saying, then please explain how this can be done.

James and Valerie
James - thank you very much for the link to your work. I have read them and support your work for the most part. The parts that I dissagree on are based on factual information I have found and researched over the last thirty years, however your work and my work fit like a hand and glove. I am an engineer and this forces me to look for hard factual evidence to prove a theory to the six sigma level 99.9999% fact.
Instead of trying to dissprove your work, I will support it in any way I can. Keep in mind that few people in the world will change the recorded historywithout proof.
The Great pyramid covers 13.5 acers at its base and has a center chamber 10 cubits by 10 cubits by 10 cubits. In this chamber is a 3 cubit by 1.5 cubit by 2 cubit stone table. The chamber was once lined with gold as well as the top north and south sides from the peak to 30 ft. below the peak.
From an engineers point of view comes the question of WHY?
Answer - It was a reproduction of the tower of Babble and an attempt to harness energy by colecting sun rays (cosmic energy) from the sun and moon. In the chamber was the Arc of the covenent which was the capacitor of the device. (The arc was reproduced in 1969 by Nevil Wolf at the University of Minn. and had to be dissmantled due to its resemblance and effects like a large electrical capacitor). The south side of the pyramid collected direct sun rays and the north side collected these same rays reflected off of the moon. It is known that energy can not be destroyed, only transformed. When these rays left the sun at the same time they arrived at the arc at different times due to the difference in distance (sun to earth and sun to moon to earth). The ancients knew that if they could collect this energy on the surface of the earth, thus not allow it to neutralize at the earths center they could control gravity. If they could control gravity they could exceed the speed of light and live eter

122- continued
As for the great sphinx and bird worshiped by the Egyptians. I think the sphinx was no more than a monument built to recognize the importance of the cat in navigation.
The female cat is one of four animals that has a menstral cycle you can set your watch to. It is 14.3 days which is two times that of a woman and represents the length of time it takes the moon to go from its most northern position in the sky to its most southern position or one half of a lunar monthly cycle.
The bird was needed on long sea voyages to harvest fish for food when at sea and return the fish to the ship.
The folk story of the owl and the pussycat came from this immage of a mother explaining to her children, the scene of their father down by the sea in a long ship with the bird and cat and his booty of gold to do trade with leaving on his four year voyage to the new world to harvest copper which was more valuble than gold in the bronze age (3000 BC to 1000 BC).
So much for fact, fiction and folk lorr.
I hope not to take to much of your time on this site, because I have one of my own which is for the THOR group to collect data and photos of our work. Feel free to visit the site at (Thor-thehuntersrock@yahoogroups.com) (http;//groups.yahoo.com/group/thor-thehuntersohiorock/) or if you just want to see the Ohio Rock go to (http;//www.photospherix.com/ohiorock.htm) and use your cursor to rotate the rock after the photo program downloads.
best regards
William

Thank you William for your endorsement of the explanation about ancient mapping in article #2, and please remember to ask Wayne May about it (he has my book and DVD).

The four shafts which emanate outward from the two inner chambers (king's and queen's) of the GP lined-up with the stars Alpha Draconis and Ursa Minor (the two shafts facing north), and Sirius and Zeta Orionis (the two shafts facing south), circa 2200 B.C., so the GP was buillt to allow "star power" to enter the inner chambers, so that the pharoahs and queens of Egypt could tap this supposed astral power.

Valerie and James
I agree with James in that I have never heard of vikings being in Australia.
I think the vikings were taught to navigate and build ships for sea travel by the bronze age people. A good place where the understanding of long boat building is at Ales Stenar, Sweden. The rock ship at this location has identification marks on selected stones that would allow the ship builders to mark the high ribbs of the cross support beams in a manner to replicate the function of stone henge. Their is a sun dial with the 26 degree angle at the bow of the ship. By putting a pole in the center and observing the suns shortest shadow one could turn the ship toward the direction he intended to go by using a reference point on the edge of the ship.
The actual building of the viking ships most likely occured on the island of Gotland, Sweden where their are at least 30 smaller rock sites than Ales Stenar. These 30 sites are very close to the actual size of the viking ships and are located at an above sea level which would match the sea level in 5200 BC.
Each of these sites are miles apart which implies many ship yards were at work at the same time. The rocks were needed to support the layout and vertical heavy ribbs during construction.
Also notice at all 30 sites the number of rocks are the same, to assure each boat had a common built in navigation circle to be used like Stonehenge.
Their are 28 spaces between the ship building stones on each side of the structure. These would allow the navigator to look into the water and see the reflection of the moon between the side uprights in order to maintain course.
In summary, the Vikings built their ships in Sweden, gathered at Stonehenge, departed from Stonehenge with their calanders/clocks set, sailed the Atlantic to North America (New England States), recorded thier journey on large dolmens, went by river to the great lakes and gathered copper from the shores of Lake Su

122# William
>>>The south side of the pyramid collected direct sun rays and the north side collected these same rays reflected off of the moon. <<<

Six sigma level, How much energy did the Egyptians reckon they'd need to achieve light speed (do we know what units of measurement they would use then for the maths?) and had they constructed enough pyramid for this project, given the proportion of loses due to heat and light with their collector, the Arc of the Covenant, surely the Great pyramid on its own would not be sufficient?

Were any of the others recorded as having been capped in a similar manner?
The Solomonic Arc was not considered complete unless covered with a shroud, presumably to prevent accidental discharge, could this also be a reference to an earlier Egyptian Arc?

Having accumulated this energy have you discovered how they would then channel it to these ends?

As for Atlantis, perhaps you might consider that the crescent Island of Santorini ticks the most boxes?

William and James, keep the discourse going. I can't follow the maths but feel very much at home in the issues involved. Having met those gold hats, am even more keen to see someone bring the small gold lozenges found in England and of much the same period, into this discourse. The rectangle found in Norfolk reminds me of the St.Andrew's saltair cross which I know has ancient celestial observation significance; I have seen it in an Italian petroglyph & worn by a trio of stone (Celtic?) chaps of c.300 in St Germaine.

The object found in the Southwest Pacific c.1880 is nicely painted over the whole surface of a circle 76cm in diameter. The design is of a wheel cross with a center defined in the manner of celtic crosses. Around the edge are painted 33 triangles in the manner & proportion of the "Viking sun compass". In two opposite quarters of the cross, a feather or leaf shape has been painted extending from the centre.

I found this artifact described as a war shield and reproduced in Anthony Meyer's book 'Oceanic Art' published by Konemann 1995 page 172. The provenance given is found on Groger Island, Astrolobe Bay by Otto Finsch c.1879-1885

Would like to send a scan of this photograph to anybody interested for comment. It looks to me as though there was someone using such a compass in the pacific area who made sufficient impression on the locals for them to preserve an accurate record of it in their art work.

Valerie, with all due respect, I don't see how you can feel very much at home in the issues involved if you don't follow the arithmetic and astronomy in article #2.

It's actually quite simple, but with several steps, so I hope you look at it for a bit, and I bet you'll then follow the methodology, and if you should have any questions about the explanation of it, just ask, and I'll respond.

Comment 67
Ashley, you said "truth is not a static entity" and went on to say "when interpreting the work of Christian church builders in Scotland, you may get closer to their beliefs if you consider the thoughts of Christians. Equally, when interpreting pagan sites, consider Pagan thoughts and beliefs. Why mix them all up, what do you learn from confusion?"

Fair enough - though when trying to come to terms with the physical reality of a building and its decoration, it may be as well to remember that there are usually three or more parties involved in the construction of that building.

First, there is the party who wants it built and will pay for it. Second there is the architect. Third, there are the construction workers.

The patron will know why and where he wants the building and will have some idea of what it should contain including ideas that enhance the way in which the form of his building will compliment its function. He may want fashionable elements beyond his own intellectual capacity to formulate and delegate this responsibility to his designer.
However the designer may have an agenda of his own and take advantage of his employer to slip in elements with a subtext his employer may not be aware of.
And then there are the construction workers who have long, possibly pre-christian traditions of their own and as valued & skilled workers, may be required to use their own initiative in detailing or simply slip in something of their own, leaving their own mark in their work.

My favourite examples of this is the work of Celtic Burgundian masons at Lerida in Spain and the Celts responsible for the Monasterboice Cross, Ireland (plaster copy in the V&A London.) where 'pagan' elements are read today by academics as 'christian'.

In the terms of this discourse, I like to keep in mind the fact that Celtic societies accepted Christianity with little hesitation, seeing in Christian doctrine

James, thanks for the offer, I think its more that my head is in an Architectural art history space and I'll leave the other stuff to the experts. When setting out to come to terms with 'sacred geometry' I never anticipated that the journey would take me through megalithic Scotland to Egypt and beyond to the Ice Age kingdoms, quite an adventure. It is almost lunch time down here and I am still in pyjamas, time to sign off for now.

Just remember Valerie, the ancients related time (precession time) to distance (one side of the earth hexagon) to know the radius of the earth, and thereby, the circumference of the earth, and the GP dimensions are a miniaturization of the earth's by 1/43,200ths, according to that ancient methodology.

Hawkayethenu - ref post #126
The standard of measurement was the cubit, just as James has stated in his articule #2. You will find this measurement is also the oldest known to modern man.
Your question as to how much energy was needed to exceed the speed of light and was the great pyramid big enough to produce it?
I do not know the answer to this, however we are constructing a small (5 ft. ) pyramid in the THOR group lab to attempt to answer this question. The five foot height was determined in order to let 1/4 in. represent one cubit. As you can see this makes the reproduction of the arc very small. ( about 1/2 in. wide and 1.25 in. long.
It is our guess that the size of the pyramid has little effect on the final outcome other than time. In other words a small pyramid will have the same effect given enough time to collect the continious cosmic energy as a large one. We have plans to monitor weight, temperature, magnatism, and electrical field.
When God made the world, he said on the first day (let their be light), on the second day he created the heavens and earth, on the third day he put the sun and planets in order with the earth.
WHAT KIND OF LIGHT DID HE MAKE ON THE FIRST DAY IF HE DID NOT MAKE THE SUN UNTILL THE THIRD DAY?
Their were many pyramids built long before the great one in Egypt at 2400 BC. The first was the tabernackel carried in the desert by Moses. If you look at the discription as we have from the bible it had 4 sides at the top, seperated by golden streamers from the point to the sides. It was built to allow communication with the devine, however you could not touch the arc in the center or it would be instant death and if you looked at it you would be blinded.
Moses carried what most call a staff, and he led the people to a safe land. He was a navigator and used the staff as a tool for determining his latitude and longitude on the earth. It worked like an astrolobe for determinin

posting 132 continued
This same tool was used to determine longitude by rotating it 90 degrees in its latitude reading position and observe the reflected position of the moon on the circle generated by the hook. The hook portion would have 30 units of measure for each day of the lunar month. All the traveler had to know was where the moon was when he started and how many days he had traveled. If the moon was not in the calculated position of the hook (ring) Its difference would be the longitude traveled.
WHAT IS THE FUNCTION OF THE STEEPLE ON THE CHURCH? Is this all we have left of the first church or did we add it to hold the bell. Even the Hindu's have 4 sides on their domes. All the churches in your part of the world have steeples even though they do not totally agree in the same faith.
Your question as to how to exceed the speed of light by harnessing this energy? First you must understand that no mass can exist when it exceeds the speed of light. It turns into pure energy. The only thing we all posess that will exist in this enviroment is THOUGHT. You can think of being on the other side of the universe faster than light will get their. WHAT HAPPENS TO YOUR THOUGHTS WHEN YOU DIE?
As for a design to harness this cosmic energy, It is a three sided pyramid with the bottom being equal to the sides. The arc (capacitor) in the center will collect cosmic energy from all sides. By changing the position of the arc in the center it will allow the entire structure to move in the same direction as you moved the arc in an attempt to re-center itself. This device could be placed in a livable structure and provide infanite power to navigate.
Your Question -As for Atlantis, perhaps you might consider that the crescent Island of Santorini ticks the most boxes?
I am an engineer and do not belive in Atlantis. If you want to find the garden or the place of creation for modern man, or the place where the solid crystal skulls were fabrica

posting 132 continued
This created the big flood and forced Noah and his three son's to flee the island and find new land. When they did they settled in four corners of the earth arround the Atlantic rim and learned to speak the toung of the natives in these new lands as well as mix populate.
New DNA evidence indicates 96% of all humans on earth can be traced to their origan. Those in America came via one of eight migrations accross the Bearing straights. The 4% that have a common O chromozone do not fit the same profile are the native American eastern Indian and the native western European,s from Spain and Portugal. This implies that they once had a common home or island in the Atlantic. Note; All mankind on earth has at least 4% Viking blood.
It is not my intention to find Atlantis, however it would be nice if all man on earth understood and was proven he was created by the same God.
The crystal skull that was found in Egypt by Napolian and is currently in the museam of mankind in London can not be recreated today due to our limited machining technology.
The creation story existed on all contenents long before 1492. It has been found in rock art in Peru, Native American Indian history and was on gold and copper plates found in 1824 in New York by Joseph Smith (founder of the Mormon faith). Joseph found the plates in a stone box under a large rock. The large rock was high in the center and tapered to the edges and triangler in shape. This rock is the same discription as the one I found in 1977 in Ohio. I wish I had found the same plates he had, I would approach them as an engineer and not destroyed them to keep mankind from understanding the history of man. ps; this is in no way a slam at the Mormon religion of which I admire.
best regards
William

continued from posting 132
Their are over 1000 pyramids on the earth. All fall within 5 degrees of the 26 latitude and all have sides that point true north and south. New evidence indicates that this technology existed in South America about the time it existed in Egypt.
Keep in mind that Stonhenge is older than the pyramids. Also keep in mind as James has explained in article 2 that high understanding of mathmatics preceeded all the structures. Including the use of the cup for a water level that allowed the reproduction of angles for megalific construction.
The simple explanation for the holy cup is take a clear drinking glass and use a protractor to set it at a 45 degree angle. Fill the 45 degree tilted glass with water untill it runs over the rim. Set the glass in an upright position and mark a line at the water level. With this cup (glass) you can reproduce a 45 degree angle by filling the glass to the mark and tilting it untill the water reaches the rim. These tools have been found in Newark, Ohio, Peru and Egypt.
best regards
William

Atlantis was the dominant maritime and mercantile power in the western Mediterranean and eastern Atlantic, some of the ruins can still be found on land in Spain, at Niebla and Rhonda for instance, and many of their megalithic ruins are now submerged offshore, off Tarifa, Rota, Chipiona, and Huelva, as well as, submerged ruins off Morocco (just across the way).

The ancient people of Britain knew it as Avalon, the Dutch as Atland, the Berbers knew it as Attala, the Egyptians as Atlantis, the Greeks as the Atlantis of the Titans (Atlas, the mapper, was one), the Romans as Atlantes, and the Mexicans (Olmec, navigators who had sailed from the east) as Aztlan or Atlan, and notice the suffix atl means water.

When Plato said Atlantis was as big as Libya and Asia combined, he was speaking about their extent in coastal areas of the Mediterranean, so the coastal areas of southwestern Europe and northwestern Africa are about that size.

Plato said that Atlantis went under 9000 years before Solon's time, which puts it at circa 9,600 B.C., but advanced megalithic building, such as of those submerged off southern Spain, did not begin until 7,000 years after that date, so was it actually 9,000 lunar cycles before Solon's time, rather than 9,000 solar cycles before Solon's time?

James (your post 136)
I find your dates of Atlantis very interesting. If Solon's time was 2600 BC then the sinking of Atlantis using lunar months instead of years would establish the sinking of Atlantis at 2900 BC. This is using the lunar month of 30 days.
When you look at the development of man this date seems more practical than the ones stated by Plato.
In my 30 years of researching sun God symbols and ancient navigation I have not observed any use of the one year calendar, however I have found that in all parts of the world the standard unit of measure for time was lunar months ( 29.531 days/month).
The American Indian of all tribes stated time in (moons). The spiral coil design of the Anasabie in the west used one coil to represent a lunar month, The midwest Hopewell and Ft Ancient used a serpent design for counting lunar months. The design of the serpent mound in Ohio has 3 coils in its tail and 7 direction changes on the snake like serpent. Translated to time it reads (3 months in a stationary boat and 7 months wandering on land to reach Ohio).
The sun God symbols found on dolmens show the longitudnal recordings in lunar units. I have compared these recordings to the established ship speed the travelers would have to have obtained and found that the average speed was less than 1 mile per hr on a straight line. This falls well within the average speed of 3 mph of an ancient single sail ship of the day. The early Viking ships could obtain a ramming speed of 7 mph with the aid of orrsman.
A single sail ship at one mile per hr could cross the 4000 mile Atlantic in a little more than five lunar months. Most of the sun God symbols on dolmens on the east coast of the USA support this, however the return trip going from west to east indicate the average trips took 10 to 12 lunar months.
When you look at the ocean currents and domenent winds these findings are supported. From ancient Europe to the USA the

William, the Egyptian priest Solon lived circa 600 B.C., so, counting-back 9,000 lunar cycles, the sea level rose to consume the now-submerged megalithic ruins circa 1400 B.C. (I think it was closer to 1500 B.C.)

Your information about the vast number of lunar (not solar) calendars in the ancient world certainly does lend credence to this lunar calendar chronology cited above, which does explain the submerged megalithic ruins in varous parts of the world that are of circa 2000 B.C. appearance (submerged ruins of tooled megalithic blocks to form walls, pavements, citadels, Atlantean columns, statues, etc.)

And don't forget that Plato cited the Athenian kings Erecthonius, Cecrops, and Erecthius, as being the rulers of Greece, at the time that Atlantis went under, and ancient Greek historians say that those kings lived around 1500 B.C., so Plato says 9,000 years, but per his own citation of the Athenian kings of circa 1500 B.C., he must have meant to say (or chose not to say) 9,000 lunar cycles, or it was mistranslated.

Chrichton Miller has kindly identified the sun dial I found as an astrolabe, have found a second version from the same area in New Guinea, showing the same artifact in more detail. Both versions are remarkable for appearing to have the pointers suspended below the face of the wheel cross.

This link should show the second astrolabe/war shield.
Shttp://www.monkeyjizz.biz/frames.mhtml/magazine/articles1...

Valerie
Ref - Posting 140
Thank you for sharing this information and link to the Astrolabe. Is this from New Guinea?
I would like to point out that the astrolabe is reported to be dated back to 130 BC from Portugal. Most so called experts indicate it was for aid in sea navigation in determining latitude only. The one in the photo is the first one that I have seen that clearly indicates it was used to aid in longitude as well as latitude.
The device had two pointers below the sun dial cross. One of the pointers would point to the sun when the disc like assembly with the cross was held on edge. In this position the cross would point directly up and down and north and south. The first dial would point to the sun and latitude would be read on the disc at the lower end of the pointer.
The disc would lay in a flat position like a dinner plate for the use of the other pointer. The cross would point north south east and west. The second pointer would then point to the moon (at noon) and the longitude would be read on the outer edge of the disc where the 30 colored triangle points show the moons daily position for each day of the lunar month. The small dots that exist in each of the outer 30 colored pointers would aid for the user to read his actual moon's position to its calculated position. This difference would be the distance he was longitudnaly from his starting point.
Thank you very much for this link and I hope I can find more information about these astrolabs.
best regards
William

This reproduction of an astrolabe was found on Grober Island, Astrolabe Bay, northeastern New Guinea in the 19thC. It is the second version I have seen of that same artifact. The other is a simpler though accurate version painted on a wooden war shield, also from Grober Island.
In this carved version, beside the two pointers, there are four other objects included on the war shield. I thought they may have been associated with the astrolabe though not preserved attached to it. Do you think they may be a weight, two slivers of loadstone or magnetised needles and a handle looking rather like the bones of a fish in this carved copy?

Valeria (post 142)
You must have eyes of an eagle. I realize we are looking at a wood carving of an astrolabe and the details are hard to understand much more than if we were looking at the actual working tool.
The small needle like objects you are referring to in my opinion are markings on the base disc that would signify the time of the year. In my research I have found that the ancient navigators broke the calander year into four groups. The four time points in the year would be determined by The spring and fall Equanox and the winter and summer soltice. Each of these four markings would represent thee quarter of the year on the disc. In the carving the needle that points to about five oclock is most likely pointing to the March 21st equanox which was the day the ancients used to verify or reset their calanders. As you can see in the carving a distinct marking on the base disc is where the one pointer is pointing.
At the end of each outer leg of the cross is markings (scale) which would aid in reading the outer dial.
This astrolabe would consist of four pieces to complete the navigational tool. It is much like the one from Coba, Mexico which is shown in a Maya rock art drawing. To my knowledge no one other than myself has been able to explain this astrolabe.
A- The base disc would show the following.
1- 30 equal spaced markings on the outer edge for tracking the moon.
2- A ring for reading latitude inside the outer edge.
3- Four markings arround the center point for representing each quarter of the year.
4- A center point or post to pivot the dials and cross.
B- First pointer (arrow) would pivot on the center of the base for moon position readings. (longitude) the assembly would be in a horrizontal position to take moon position readings.
C- Second pointer (arrow) would pivot on the center of the base for sun readings. (latitude) the assembly would be held in a vertical position to

Hello: just thought to remark that the Scribbles of Ancients are far more interesting than the scribbles of such as Dan Brown. We live in an enlightened age that veers toward answers to questions the Church have been evasive of for 2000 years.

Valeria and Alan
Alen - you are so correct in your post 144.
Valeria - I took another look at your question as to what the 4 major items represent on the astrolabe from New Guinea.
The four major items make up two pointers that have a pointing arrow on each end. These pointers are under the cross and pivot on the base.
Earlier I said the four objects were for determining the quarter of the year. Sory for the confusion. The two small boat like objects shown at each end of the one pointer (with fishbone end)represent the new moon in the lunar month. Note the overall dial has vivid triangle markings toward the outer edge. It appears their are 30 of these markings which represent each lunar day of the month. As the moon goes arround the earth in its 30 day cycle the moon would appear two times as a new moon and they would be 15 days apart or in this case 180 degrees apart on the dial. At one new moon the cresent would appear in the opposite direction than the other new moon 15 days later.
The other pointer is pointing to a small triangle which represents the day of the equanox or March 21st.
I do hope you realize what you have found and assure you it will be breaking news in the near future if you do not mind me making a working replica of this tool and showing it at the AAAPF conference in Big Bay, Mich. on Oct. 6th, 7th and 8th.
I currently have 11 ancient tool models that I will be displaying and other related proof that the ancients navigated the earth using latitude and longitude long before the ships clock was invented in the 1700s.
You or any others interested in this subject can contact me at (wmsmithrock1@yahoo.com) and I will share photos and related data that will clearify this find.
best regards
William

William, I am looking forward to hearing more about this astrolabe/compass from New Guinea. Will we be able to access your paper on the net?
Was very taken by its likeness to the Viking Sun compass, do you know this reconstructed artifact?
Although you have identified the two tiny oval shapes an ancillary pointers, I still fancy them as slivers of loadstone or magnetised needles. There must have been something about this compass that made the Grober Island natives want to capture its powerful magic for their war shields.

link below to view John V.Lambert's work on the Viking compass.
http://members.aol.com/jvlambert/Norman/SunCompass.htm

William, do you believe that the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings (Hapgood) were compiled from fantastically accurate ancient source maps (as believed by many from the military and academia as quoted in Hapgood's book, and as noted on the compiled maps themselves)? If so, do you propose that the accuracies of east-west distances on those maps (such as the Zeno and Ibn Zara Maps) were achieved with an astrolabe? That would be news to the cartographical community.

Valerie
Thank you very much for the link to the Viking sun compus by John Lambert. I had not seen this before, however I did view a TV program about Leaf Erickson"s travels to the new world about 6 months ago. At the beginning of the show they showed artifacts used by the Vikings that was uncovered in Greenland. One such item was a wooden wheel with 30 holes. It's use was unknown.
I do know the vikings used a flat stick like object with a slot in it for reading latitude by holding it vertical and observing the angle of the sun at noon. They also constructed their ships with the center mask as a sun reading gnomen and could read the length of the shadow of the mask to determine high noon. They also marked the outer edge of their ship with 30 uprights on each side that was for observing the moon and maintaining north south east west direction. All of this in new and being researched by Bob Lind at Ales Stenar, Sweden where a stone ship has the critical stones identified.
I have looked at John Lamberts reconstructed sun astrolabe from an actual partial viking wood astrolabe and feel their may have been a critical mistake made in the reconstruction. He shows 32 windows on the outer edge of his reconstructed dial which does not match the 30 count I have been using. My 30 count is based on the following.
1- The moon circles the earth every 29.651 days.
2- Stonehenge has 30 windows under the standing stones for observing the daily position of the moon.
3- The Nebra disc found in Germany has 30 small moons which represent the daily position of the moon during the lunar month.
4- The astrolabe from a stone drawing in Coba, Mexico has 30 windows on the outer edge.
5- The astrolabe from New Guinea has 30 windows on the outer edge.
6- The 1345 Portugal map (Catalian Atlas disc) has 30 moon positions identified on the fifteenth ring from the center.
7- The sun dial base's for moon tracking found in Sweden, Aust

continued from post 148
Yes you will be able to view my work on the web. I have not posted all the information I have put together for the AAAPF conference, however shortly after the conference I will post it on the THOR site.
My first presentation which was given last year was an introduction to the Ohio Rock and is currently on the THOR site. Have you tried to get on the THOR site? I know you must be a yahoo group member to have access to all the information on the site, however all that is required is a yahoo password. Thier are currently over 1300 messages on this site and over 100 photos and such in the photo section. I gave you my e-mail and if you send me a note I can send you an invite to the group.
As for the users of the astrolabe they did not need any magnetic compas to determine true north and south. They used the sun dial cross to obtain true north and south which was more accurate than magnetic north and south. If you look at the curvatures of the small moon's (needles) you will observe they are mirror immages and 180 degrees apart on the astrolabe base. They represent the new moon which would be visable 2 times during a lunar month. The first curved one way as it was observed circuling the earth because of the suns reflection off the moon and the second curved in the opposite direction because it was 180 degrees arround the earth.
I will reproduce the five piece New Guinea
astrolabe and post it on the THOR web site within two days.
As for the power of magic in the war shields I am lost, however it would be very important for a warior to know where he was and where he was going.
I do enjoy your interest in this work and hope you share in the work the THOR group is trying to accomplish.
ps: engineers like myself can not spell very well
best regards
William

Got that William, I saw a striking similarity between two artifacts, you have slotted the New Guinea astrolabe/compass into a much wider context. Have sent you a e.mail and hope to check out the Thor site.
Valerie

James (your post 147)
Yes I believe the ancients during the bronze age (3000 BC thru 1000 BC) had the knowledge and tools to navigate and make very accurate maps using the sun dial or astrolabe in its proper constructed assembly.
The technical use of the sun dial was lost about 2000 years ago when the English decided to simplify the sun dial by removing the gnomen and ring of hipparchus and turning the dial 180 degrees so the remaining gnomen would tell the time of day only. In other words we have been reading the sun dial backwards ever since.
I am not very familiar with ancient maps, however the one you referred to seems to be used by Napolian in the 1700s and is thought to be from ancient records from Isreal.
I do have a copy of the Catalian Atlas map which dates to 1345 and has a disc in the lower right hand corner that consist of 17 rings all related to the moon and its position in the sky.
During the bronze age copper was more valuble than gold and many voyages were made from the old world to the new to get this presious metal. After the western Europeans came up with stronger metal allows the copper trade dissapeared arround 1000 BC.
The ancient astrolabe could be read to about 1 degree ov variance when reading the sun for latitude. The accuracy was improved when on land due to stability. This degree of accuracy when using the astrolabe for measuring the position of the moon was less accurate due to the fact they had to measure the position of the moon on the first day of their voyage in order to posess the predetermined (calculated) position of the moon when they took their longitudnal readings. Because of the two readings required of the moon,s position (one at the start of their voyage and one on each day the moon was visiable this made more room for error) Much of this error was corrected on the additional readings of the moons position would have an offset to any error made on a given day.
My res

continued from posting 151
James
Christine has spent most of her life understanding ancient cave art maps in Europe. Much of her work not only shows the ancients knew the lay of the land and sea but also recorded the sea currents of the time. I have a hard copy of Volume 6, Issue Number 21, 2005 which explains this in detail with photos. This document is on the THOR site if you chose to view it.
best regards
William

William, you are obviously unfamiliar with the maps in Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings by Hapgood, and as you are a student of ancient navigating, I find this a little hard to believe, you might want to pick up a copy.

And the fact remains that the ancients could not calculate their position anywhere on earth with an astrolabe or sun-dial, as they could with the archaeometer, measuring the rate of precession (the slow apparent movement of the constellations because of it) relative to geographic positions.

You have to measure time to measure east-west distances, and that was done through the measurement of precession time to determine the dimensions of, and therefore, be able to accurately chart, the earth.

James
I am familiar with the so called ancient maps of the sea kings by Hapgood. Much of his work has been questioned as to the validity and actual age. One thing he failed to do was to explain how the ancients calculated longitude before the so called measurement of precession.
The ancients had the ability of measurement of precession long before the invention of the chronometer (time piece driven by spring other than pendulum).
They used the position of the moon at high noon independant of their longitudnal location on the earth.
I live in Ohio and high noon occurs in Ohio about one hour before it does where you live in Texas. If I go look at the position of the moon at MY hi noon it will not be in the same position when you look at it one hour later at your high noon. You will see the moon 15.5 degrees east of the location I observed it. (the 15 degrees is from the one hour of earth rotation in relation to the sun and the one half of a degree is for the one hr of moon orbiting time arround the earth.
The archaeometer (named and patened in 2002 by Crichton E M Miller) or celtic cross is nothing more than a sun dial. Mr Miller is correct in most of his work, however the celtic cross did not function with the stars as he explained. It functioned as a sun dial in order to identify high noon and true north/south as well as an astrolabe.
The ancients used the celtic cross as a sun dial by reading the shadow of the cross during the day. With the cross held in a vertical position the suns shadow of the top leg would be the shortest at high noon and the east west leg's would be of the same length. This would give the tru north/south, east/west direction. Once direction was established an astrolabe was used in a vertical position to determine latitude. Then the astrolabe was placed horrizontal inside the lunar ring with 30 outer markings. With the astrolabe in a horrizontal position and in correct north/south orentation the

continued from posting 154
Measuring the position of the moon in relation to a position on earth is a lot more accurate than measuring the stars. Instead of reccomending that I read the works of others in order to be a good student of ancient navigation I suggest you read the bible. Especially the part where God took man up in a golden chariot and showed him how to navigate using the sun, moon and stars. note; he said sun and moon before stars.
best regards
william

William, the archeaometer (Celtic Cross), patented and marketed by Crichton Miller as a back-up navigational device, was not patented as a sun-dial, it was patented as a means to triangulate geographic locations by the stars of the constellations, not by the sun or moon, just ask him, and so you're still stuck with the fact that one must measure time in order to measure east-west distances, this is why the non-precession-derived maps were so poor in east-west distance resolution, and continental shapes in general.

Mappers basically hadn't much of a clue (sans the precession-mapping-scheme) until the invention of Harrison's Chronometer in the 1750's, before that (sans the precession-mapping-scheme), maps of the continents and oceans were distorted and almost comical in their inaccuracies.

If you would read Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, you will see that many experts see that some unknown mechanism allowed the ancients to accurately measure east-west distances, but now we know how they did it, they related precession time to earth distances, in knowing that the length of one side of the "earth hexagon" is equal to the length of the radius of the earth.

Hey William, I couldn't help but notice, so please indulge me, why do you capitalize the titles of books and other proper names, excepting the Bible from this practice?

And where is this part of the B(b)ible where God shows somebody in a golden chariot how to accurately navigate using the sun, moon, and stars?

Referring to Cowie's notation that the etchings in Rosslyn are accurate depictions of the proportions of latitude and longitude in the lozenges, to achieve the accurate dimensions for the respective lozenges between the respective latitudes, the east-west distances of which, representing 15 degrees of longitude, the ancients must have been able to measure time, not with a watch, but with star triangulation and the knowledge of precession mapping. Measuring the sun and moon cannot achieve such, you must measure time as it relates to distance, with a watch, or by precession time.

#88 Ashley
>>>The Mystic Rose of Sharon is a familiar symbol to Freemasons being prominant in the Scottish Rite degrees as well as the York Rite.

A:The cult of the Virgin Mary was ripping around Catholic Europe at the time of building, isn’t that a more reasonable idea than an order, which was founded over two century’s later?<<<

Naughty!

Quote from Rose Croix (without giving away secrets)
'In the fulness of time Jesus His Son appeared on earth in the lowly form of Man, but after a short space of thirty three years the Headstone of the Corner was torn from the foundations of the Temple and thrown among its ruins and the Mystic Rose of Sharon was nailed to a Cross'

Masonic swords are 33 inches long and cruciform.

Think about it.

How can you be so sure there are no masonic symbols?

Can I suggest you go to Hamilton mausoleum and count how many of the 33 degrees you can identify there, THEN come back and say there are no masonic symbols in Rosslyn Chapel.

In 1972, on my school trip to Rosslyn Chapel, my teacher, telling the legend of the apprentice pillar, pointed out the heads of the master, apprentice and nearby his mother whom she described as a widow.
She also said that your collegiate church was not even consecrated until the 19th century, even then it caused a fuss.
I found that curious.

btw. During the ninties I had cause to visit the masonic temple in Rosslyn Road, Watford, Hertfordshire, where they had a brass knocker on the Lodgeroom door in the form of the apprentice pillar.
No-one in the lodges who met there had the faintest idea what it was, but 'it had always been there'.
Covering the west wall of the lodgeroom was a huge portrait of some Scottish peer by the name of Stuart(of Bute), again they couldn't tell me why.

1716 1717 may be coincidences, but who were the Grand Masters the 'Ancient' Grand Lodge of England with those itinerent Ir

James ref post 156 and 157
I have seen the work of Mr Miller and admire his work as well as his protection of the same when another researcher was explaining how the angles were established in building the pyramids. I wish him the best of luck in linking his celtic cross and its star consulstion conection to the Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings. I retract my statement that Mr Millers Celtic Cross was a sun dial.
I will say that the cross was a symbol the ancients used when they set their sun/moon clocks on the day of the equanox. The shadow of the gnomen pointing to the true north and the shadow of the ring of hipparchus which hung on this gnomen made a cross pattern on the ground at the northern point of the sun dial.
The main problem Mr Miller will have in linking his findings to the maps of the ancient sea kings will be in identifying why the maps shows zero longitude/latitude at two locations in the Atlantic.
I will not try to explain again how the ancients used the position of the sun and moon as a clock, however I reccomend you re-read my earlier posting,s 154 and 155.
My theory of ancient navigation established in 1979 has not been published because I was convinced that it would need more than just a rock found in Ohio. As a student of the late Barry Fell before his passing in 1985 the main thing I learned was not to be premature on your findings. He was tagged as a critic when he was alive, now he is considered as the father of research in the connection of the old world to the new.
After I give my presentation at the AAAPF conference in Big Bay, Mich. I will publish my work in Ancient American. It will show some of the findings listed below.
1- 35 recorded ancient voyages recorded in longitude and latitude (sun God symbols)
2- Twelve navigational tools used for tracking the sun and moon. (It will not include the Celtic cross)
3- The Mormon connection to the Ohio Rock
4- The home location of

William, over a year ago, Crichton Miller congratulated me on my finding (article #2), which explains how measurements with his patented archaeometer (Celtic Cross) account for the accuracies of the "maps of the ancient sea kings." That's covered.

James
I am aware of your relation with Mr Miller and I also congratulate you. I wish the two of you the best in selling this and its importance to understanding ancient history to the major players of the world.
The only real difference we have is Mr Miller and you state the ancients used the stars. I say the ancients used the moon and my accumulated data which includes a mold the ancients used to fabricate their coper sun dial has their home latitude built into it. (http;//www.photospherix.com/ohiorock.htm)
I do not believe in Atlantis, however the 26.4 latitude north and the 65 longitude west was a critical location for the ancients. This is also one of the zero points on the Maps of the ancient sea kings.
best regards
William

William

I do not state that ancient people only used the stars
I make it quite clear in my book The Golden Thread of Time, ISBN 0-954-1639-0-7 2001, Pendulum Publishing 2001 that the ancients used the fixed backdrop of the stars and zodiacs to measure the position of the sun both night and day
Those who wish to read more of my work in the Scotsman can find my article here

http://heritage.scotsman.com/myths.cfm?id=2401602005

Further more there are two articles in Ancient American regarding the cross and its use and the potential Voyage of St Brendan the Navigator hundreds of years before Columbus.
Most links to my work can be found by pasting my name into Google

Crichton E M Miller

Crichton, since there are 43,200 Great Pyramid base-perimeter-lengths (21,600 nautical miles) which compose the circumference of the earth, and so, the Great Pyramid's base-perimeter-length is half a nautical mile, do you agree that the length of the Egyptian Royal Cubit (20.632 inches) was calculated by dividing 1,760 (4 base-sides of the GP x 440 cubits/base-side) into 1/43,200th of the earth's circumference?

James

I agree that there are 21600 arc minutes in a 360 degree circle
Each circle may be infinite in its proportion, the translation exponential and the interpretation relative
The circumference of the earth is not 21600 NM at the location of the pyramid based on its latitude

Crichton, is that a yes, or is that a no?

Crichton Miller
I have read your work in Ancient American and your book. I agree with you in most cases and support your explanation of the Celtic cross as a navigational tool "aid"
I am aware of many ancient artifacts that have been linked to the stars, however I am also aware of many artifacts that have been missidentified or not identified at all and placed on a back shelf.
I am not critising your work, just trying to support it. I look forward to viewing your progress in Ancient American. I will be with Wayne May at the AAAPF conference this October.
best regards
William

James

The answer is as definite as possible to answer a question that is not defined at all
Most of this work is covered at http://www.crichtonmiller.com

James
Not to butt in on this conversation about the mathmatics of the ancients, but just to share some comments. The holy latitude of the ancient Egyptians was 26 degrees. The Great Pyramid is on about the 30 degree latitude. I think the circumfrance of the earth is closer to 24,900 miles if you view it as a ball.
The holy latitude arround the earth of 26 degree latitude will fit your equation a lot closer than the 30 degree latitude of the Great Pyramid.
The 26.4 (home) latitude that is in the Ohio Rock is most likely to be the closest to fit your equation.
best regards
William

Crichton, what about my question in post #163 is "not defined at all?"

It was very well defined to you when you fell over backwards when you read the finding, demanding that you be credited for the role which your work played in it.

Graham Hancock is the similar to your act, I answer the questions which arose from his work on ancient precession mapping (relating time to distance), but he sits on his hands with the 'ol "no comment" ('though he does have my finding at his website, entitled Great Pyramid and the Astronomical Merry-Go-Round).

William

I wish you well with your research

Please give my regards to Wayne May when you see him
He has been most supportive of my research in the past
Have a good conference and I hope to meet you at a future one

Best regards

Crichton

William, please go read the finding again, it seems you don't understand it yet.

James

I demanded credit because you originally put my work in your publication without referencing the source

Your question is not based on fact because you say the circumference of the earth, I ask you what circumference are you talking about to assist you in seeing something you are missing.

I will not reply again if you continue to use scathing tones on a public forum toward me or other more successful authors
You do yourself no favours with the thousands who read this discussion list

Crichton, I have credited your work from day one, at my website, and now in my new book, what you read which caused you to demand to be credited was before it was up at my website, so you are mistaken, or whatever.

The circumference which results from relating time to distance, using the precession mapping scheme in article #2, is the one I'm talking about.

What you consider to be "scathing tones," to me, is the sound of me trying to get straight answers out of you, sorry.

Crichton, I know you have devoted alot of thought to why the length of the Egyptian royal cubit was selected, so what is your current thinking about why that length (20.632 inches equivalence) was selected by the ancient Egyptians?

James
My current thinking on the creation of a unit of measurement such as the Royal Cubit is that the Rulers probably related all earth measurement to something they were familiar with, in the same way that zodiacs were created based on creations in the local environment based on a shamanistic and animistic world view.
The reason that they used objects of measurement from the human body was because all heavenly measurements are exponential when translated to the ground.
Therefore, when holding a digit(finger width) to the eye to measure the width of a distant object on the horizon is only relative to the pre determined distance from the digit to the eye because of the exponetiality of degrees or fractions of degrees.

There is no surety at present of the exactness of William Flinders Petries measurements in 1820 which were taken with measuring rods, although current high tech equipment is suggesting that he was very accurate.

"the perimeter of the Great Pyramid, or Cheops, of 36,525 pyramid inches is equal to the number of days in 100 years and the number of books of ancient wisdom credited to the Egyptian god Thoth.
A pyramid inch, the basic unit used in measuring pyramids, is just a fraction over one inch." Source:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1695866.htm

Since you now say that the length of the royal cubit, which, just by chance (as you now would say), happens to be 1,760 (4 x 440) divided into 1/43,200th of the circumference length of the earth, was determined by some length or width of some part of some pharoah's anatomy, we all now know that you previously thought the royal cubit was astronomically-derived (per my finding), but now, you don't. I wish you'd make up you mind, but I understand your dilemma (you just wish you'd thought of my finding), but that's ok, the finding stands, with or without your endorsement.

It makes for an interesting study of human nature, how you initially jumped to demand credit for the role which your worked played in the finding (which explains how the royal cubit was derived by the rate of precession, 72 years/degree), but now, you say the length of the royal cubit was selected by a dimension of some unspecified anatomical part of of some pharoah's body. Oh brother.

Crichton, is it just a coincidence that the length of the ancient Egyptian royal cubit is 1,760 (4 x 440) divided into 1/43,200th of the circumference length of the earth?

Crichton, in your post #162, you provide the link to The Scotsman article about the Celtic Cross (archaeometer), and the writer says:

"Miller says that with this instrument he can prove that the ancients could understand time, that they could plot where they were in position to stars, and most importantly in terms of travel, used this same instrument to find longitude."

Crichton, when the writer says that you "can prove that the ancients could understand time," to what kind of time were you referring?

My mom's side of the family is named is Rayzor, it was corrupted from the name Raisor in South Carolina in the early 1800's, so does anybody know from what part of Scotland come the Raisor clan?

Crichton
It must be your day to get jumped on. Thanks for the feedback about Ancient American and I will say a word with Wayne. I think your work is outstanding and have read comments from other people in the study of the pyramids and find they have given you a lot of credit for your work. I have also read your work in Ancient American and I am sure I will see it their in the future.
I have had two articles in Ancient American and will be adding more. Wayne indicated he would like to do one exclussive magizine on all the findings of the Ohio Rock. I explained to him that some indirect related information has been challenged as forgery (Burrows Cave) and I did not want to use any of these rock carvings as support to my work.
If you send me an e-mail at (wmsmithrock1@yahoo.com) I will keep you in the loop for additional information that will support your great work. I can not post a lot of information on this public site as you well understand.
best regards
william

179# James
If your name has a Scottish origin it may be a derivation from the Clan Fraser

http://www.electricscotland.com/webclans/dtog/fraser.html

I see James Nienhuis, aka Genesisveracity for reasons which are obvious to anyone who visits his site, is posting here.

He mentions Ice Age quite a bit, but nowhere do I see on this site the fact that he believes the Ice Age (the only Ice Age for him I presume) ended in around 1500bce. This allows it to fit into his Young Earth Creationist framework. Of course, if you don't think the earth is only a few thousand years old, most of what he claims makes no sense.

As for ancient maps, see some relevant articles on my website.

ALOHA! I have enjoyed the educated debates on this site about Myths and Mysteries with great relish. I read every one since August to October, this evening Nov 21. Sadly the educated rants ceased with an October date.

Yet, I am excited that this forum exists, as I have been doing research in many of the same subjects in very much isolation in Hawaii. This is the best Forum for my interests with such notable published authors, as well. I would like to join the fray, or, at least offer corroboration of certain concepts and unearthed reassesments of history.

My premise to participate is for co-operation in the idea that the ancients had knowledge and wisdom that we modern, civilized(sic) peoples would rather deny, even to the degree of denial of there skills and acceptance of false histories that might elevate the ancients above us, to further our often falsely institutionalized politically correct positions.

I would also state that in my book I am writing I will fully credit the vast under-rated navigational knowledge of the ancient ones, One key to ancient knowledge in Hawaii are the large fields of Petroglyphs. Many of these are star maps, siting diagrams, kahuna initiation sites for navuigation and calendric wisdom.

Trans-pacific voyaging across thousands of miles was successfully to Hawaii was completed by many peoples, as recorded in oral history. The use of kites to pull canoes, siting mechanisms attached to canoes to stay on course, water currents, observation of birds, citing on rising and setting stars in pockets of horizon, any many more techniques arew still being rediscovered and used once again with success; the memory keys of myths to explain star formation to preserve the ancient knowledge still awaits rediscovery.

While exploring the southern-most shore of the Big Island of Hawaii, the southernmost island close to the nineteenth latitude, I turned my back from the sea to gaze at the Navigation Heiau at the southernmos

I think this article is objective. Unlike Dan Brown who force you to see what he wants, your article helped me to understand better the misteries of The Rosslyn Matrix.
it is our duty to find truth in common sense and not in phantasies.