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Abortion debate reignited by baby born at 23 weeks 5 days



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Published Date:
25 October 2007
THE government has no plans to lower the legal limit on abortion because there is no medical evidence to support a change, a senior UK health minister said yesterday.
Dawn Primarolo told MPs that despite scientific advances, a foetus's chances of survival had not improved and the upper limit of 24 weeks should not be reduced.

However, her comments came as it emerged a British baby had been born at 23 weeks and
five days and was battling to stay alive in a neo-natal unit.

Pro-life campaigners said the case should force MPs to look again at the upper limit, with a spokeswoman for the ProLife Alliance calling it "living evidence of the unborn child's strength and resilience".

With just days to go before the 40th anniversary of the Abortion Act, debate on the issue is hitting new levels of intensity, with campaigners on both sides calling for changes.

Lord Steel, the architect of the act, yesterday said too many abortions were taking place. He effectively accused some "irresponsible" women of using the procedure as a last-ditch contraceptive. He said: "I would like to see more research as to why women present for abortion.

"I suspect that a fair percentage would be found to have used failed contraceptive measures or none at all.

"Abortion should not be regarded as long-stop contraception, and as a society we need to address these issues, as well as the questions of sexual ethics and sex education."

He said he had consistently argued that if abortion was "sadly necessary" it was "desirable that it should be carried out as early as possible".

He said parliament had "always protected the viable foetus from infanticide" and said there needed to be "convincing evidence" of viability before 24 weeks to justify reducing the limit.

"As it is, very few are carried out after 22 weeks, since all are agreed that is undesirable," he added.

He called on the Commons science and technology committee, which Ms Primarolo was addressing, to look to Europe, where one doctor could approve an abortion up to the 12th or 13th week of pregnancy. UK law requires the consent of two.

The health minister told the committee that at 21 weeks gestation, the chance of survival to discharge from hospital was 0 per cent. At 22 weeks it was 1 per cent and at 23 weeks it was 11 per cent.

She said: "In this very complex area of viability we are following the medical consensus and that medical consensus still indicates that, while improvements have been made in care, at the moment that concept of viability cannot be pushed back in weeks. It's a matter of viability and survival rates and that's where we draw our view on that matter."

She added: "Certainly the evidence with regard to the British Association of Perinatal Medicine is pointing quite clearly to the point that viability, whatever the vast improvements, and there are significant improvements, cannot be continually pushed back in terms of a date."

Arguments have raged around the definition of viability, with some arguing it simply means being born alive, and others claiming it requires the baby to have a meaningful life.

Last night, a spokeswoman for the ProLife Alliance claimed the birth three weeks ago of Graiden Eldred, at just under 24 weeks, should force legislators to look at dropping the limit.

She said: "It is almost as if there is an absolute reluctance to give any leeway to the unborn child.

"That's the feeling - that they are not going to want to budge on [the issue] that there might be something wrong with aborting babies at 24 weeks. I think most public opinion is opposed to abortion at that stage."

But Anthony Ozimic, political secretary of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, said: "We are pleased that the government does not seem interested in seeing the Abortion Act amended at this time.

"Any amendments to the Abortion Act at this time are likely to result in an increase in the numbers of abortions.

"We call upon parliamentarians to resist calls, from whatever quarter, to table amendments to the Abortion Act and instead to focus upon the many practical ways of reducing the numbers of abortions, in particular by addressing the pressures upon expectant mothers which lead them to consider abortion."

At a later press conference, held as part of the Voice for Choice campaign, MP Emily Thornberry, vice-chairwoman of the all-party parliamentary pro-choice and sexual health group, said the committee had been wrongly convinced they should look at whether there had been a medical breakthrough on foetal viability. She said there had been no such breakthrough.

"Instead of using the opportunity of the 40th anniversary to celebrate the fact that there has been an abortion law in Britain over 40 years, we are finding ourselves defending what we have," she said.

And Anne Quesney, director of Abortion Rights, said later-stage abortions were rare and were needed by women facing "extraordinarily difficult circumstances".

She said the tactic of focusing on later abortions was part of the anti-choice lobby's "step by step" approach to their ultimate goal of making all abortion illegal.

Voice for Choice, a group of 13 pro-choice organisations seeking reforms to the act, has an agenda that includes making abortion available solely at the request of the pregnant woman within existing time limits.

A Department of Health spokeswoman said last night: "We are on the record as saying there are no current plans to change the rules on abortion but further than that we are not able to say."

The debate raged on the eve of a protest at Holyrood by the newly formed Women's Abortion Rights Scotland.

The move, as revealed by The Scotsman last weekend, is a direct response to First Minister Alex Salmond's recent comments on the issue, and his personal support for a reduction in the time limit to 20 weeks.

• Abortion was outlawed in 1803 - and made punishable by death - following protests from doctors concerned that it was regularly carried out by non-medical personnel.

• The 1967 act clarified the issue, allowing for legal abortion on a number of grounds, with the added protection of free provision through the NHS.

The act set a general time limit of 28 weeks, and required that the procedure must be certified by two doctors.

• The Act does not apply to Northern Ireland, where it is still illegal to carry out abortions.

• Medical advances have since brought about changes in the time limit, which was reduced to 24 weeks under the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990.

• In Scotland, the number of abortions has risen from 11,997 in 2000 to 13,081 last year,

• including 362 carried out on girls under the age of 16.

• Scots considered to be socially deprived have consistently had the most abortions during the past decade representing almost 30 per cent of procedures. Last year the most affluent accounted for just 14 per cent.

• More than nine-in-ten of abortions in Scotland over the past decade were carried out before 13 weeks.

• A Mori poll in 2006 showed support for tightening of laws on abortion. A total of 42 per cent of those questioned believed that the legal limit should be cut. However, just 10 per cent of women wanted abortion "outlawed altogether".

• The Church of Scotland has said that while in the great majority of cases abortion has no moral justification, it can only be sustained where it risks the life or health of the mother; a case of rape or incest has been proven; or where it is known the foetus is damaged or deformed.

• Women can refer themselves for private abortions, which start from around £450 and increase to £750 or more in the later stages of pregnancy.

• There are two methods of early abortion. One involves two tablets which once ingested end the pregnancy within four hours and can be used in the first nine weeks of pregnancy.

The second , "vacuum aspiration" , is used up to 13 weeks and involves the insertion of a tube into the womb and removal of the foetus by suction.

REVOLUTIONARY TWINS

A SET of twins has become the first babies in Britain to be artificially conceived using a revolutionary procedure that dispenses with fertility drugs.

The children, who are not being named, were created by IVM - in vitro maturation - which involves extracting dormant eggs from the ovaries and maturing them in a laboratory. The technique is safer, faster and cheaper than in vitro fertilisation (IVF) as no drug treatment is required prior to collecting the eggs.

A key advantage is that it avoids the possibility of dangerous side-effects that can occur if the ovaries are over-stimulated.

However, only about 400 IVM babies have been born worldwide, compared with about two million IVF babies.

In January, the private Oxford Fertility Unit became the first IVF clinic in the UK to be awarded a licence by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority to offer the treatment.

Yesterday, the clinic announced the birth of the twins. They were delivered one minute apart last Thursday and are said to be doing well. The boy weighed 6lb 5oz; his sister, 5lb 14 oz.



The full article contains 1560 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 October 2007 8:22 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Abortion
 
1

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 00:50:14

Mr 'hootsman' I think putting your last part of text on here was distasteful!!
"REVOLUTIONARY TWINS" what if it is twins or triplets that are aborted?
How 'SICK' is that?

2

Faye,

25/10/2007 02:18:19

It is murder of unborn innocents who have no rights.

In the age of latex Johnies and goodness knows what else, there is really no need for the number of abortions that some people seem use as a method of contraception.

There are always plenty of couples who would dearly love to adopt babies and abortion has terrible consequences for the unborn and it usually causes mental and guilt problems on those who have aborted.

3

,

25/10/2007 02:23:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1085232, Article id was mapped to record!
4

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA ...hey... vote Hillary Clinton 4 Pres 25/10/2007 02:31:43

2. Faye / 3:18am 25 Oct 2007

Hey U .

Give me one logical reason why a homo sapien female would wait 20 or 24 week to abort.

I mean is she on drugs , like alcohol, crack coke, marijuana etc.

So she gets pregnant, and finds that out in say, 8 weeks max.
Then she has to decide to keep or abort.

Seems to me these women are incapable of making decisions, but are happy copulating and getting pregnant.

Nothing wrong with copulating . but if u don't want a baby then protect yourself .

The guys don't care , they are in there for the sensation of the orgasm.

GC

5

W Smith,

Middle East 25/10/2007 03:42:47

In 1984 there was a video called 'The Silent Scream' released showing the babies reaction in the womb to the initial pain as it was about to be broken up into little pieces before being sucked out of the womb.

Pretty disturbing stuff and I am ashamed to say places like Dundee have almost become the abortion capital of Europe!

The Scottish Loony Left smugly call this "women's rights".

BTW
Women have every 'right' to pay for their own abortions in a private hospital and not keep the NHS surgeons so busy my dad can't get a hip replacement - even though he's worked all his life and never been on the dole!

6

media watch,

Argyll 25/10/2007 05:16:46

There is currently a young woman touring the United States who is an abortion survivor. Although highly disabled as a consequence of what was done to her (poison injected into her mother's womb)she is bright and hopeful. She is a committed and practising Catholic ,with the Lord at the centre of her life.She has a sense of humour also and loves the fact that the politically correct don't boo her 'as it is politically incorrect to boo a highly disabled person'. She finds the saddest thing is that her mother still defends what she did to her.The antithesis of love indeed.

7

radical theologian,

california 25/10/2007 05:51:12

There needs to be an intelligent discussion of this entire issue - highlighted by the two reports that are here alongside each other. Loads of people want kids, others don't - surely it's not rocket science to ask how and if they might help each other? Or am I missing something? Could it just be something to do with the huge amounts of money made by fertility clinics, and the cash paid to abortion clinics? Or am I too cynical by far?

8

Guga II,

Rockall 25/10/2007 05:52:27

If, as #5 suggests, it is the Scottish loony left that cheers abortion on, then I presume it is, by his way of thinking, the Scottish loony right that want to make abortion illegal. Or maybe it's the loony centre, or the loony right of centre, or any other loony position you can think of.

Why can't we all be grown up about this. The god botherers generally do not believe in abortion, whereas normal people do, in certain circumstances. So, let the god botherers do what they want, and the rest of us will do what we want.

The only flaw in that argument though is that the god botherers, being "good christians", reckon that they have the right to impose their views on the rest of us. None of this "turning the other cheek" for them. It's a bit like the so-called "right to life" mob of good christians in America. They are so sure of their "rightness" that they will kill anyone that is involved in abortion clinics.

Obviously, to them, the "right to life" depends on whose side you are on. Don't you just love these religious types? Disagree with them and, suddenly, you have no right to life.

The god botherers also continually come out with all the emotive language and terms, like murder; and highlight their views with their own little horror videos and pictures. If they can't kill the opposition, they are determined to try and frighten them into submission.

Anyway, here's some news for the god botherers: we are all animals, just like monkeys, dogs, frog, cockroaches etc. So how many of these god botherers are quite prepared to kill animals, or have them killed for them to eat? Isn't killing one animal the same as killing any other animal? Ah, they say, we are not animals, we are god's creation. Well here's another news flash for you: there is no god. Religion is the opium of the masses and a crutch for the weak-minded. So, keep your mythological beliefs to yourself, mind your bus

9

samhain,

no mans land 25/10/2007 06:19:43

#8 Guga. Well said coundn't have put it better myself.

10

AngelaM,

scotland 25/10/2007 06:31:55

What I do not understand about all this is the rationale regarding viability of the fetus at a certain number of weeks. How does the survival rates of babies born prematurely influence the decision on what is morally right regarding abortion? If a baby is not removed surgically whether it be at 9 weeks gestation or 24 weeks then surely its "viability" or chances of survival is the same as any other child that is left alone to naturally develop and grow? Once a child is born it's viability to survive is dependant on the care and protection we give it, this is the same for the unborn child. If we seriously abuse a child or any person for that matter then it will die the same as if we seriously abuse the unborn child by removing it from environment it needs to grow and develop. I cannot understand how anyone can accept that abortion is not child abuse in an extreme form. The unborn child is the most vunrable human form there is and needs our love and protection to survive and when this is given its "viability" is generally excellent.

11

Ross Fyffe,

Fife 25/10/2007 06:36:27

Guga until you see an aborted child squirm in the bowl dont talk C***

12

Boy Wonder,

25/10/2007 06:38:22

If a termination (a much better word than abortion) is to be done, it should be as early in the pregnancy as possible, barring illness putting it off till later. Personally, I think 20 weeks is late enough. Beyond that, the foetus begins to develop definite human traits and termination at that stage takes on a different look. Which is why people think of it as murder ... especially to the weak-minded religio-superstitious lot.

The problem is that in the 70s and 80s, terminations were used as a blunt instrument and that has to be addressed.

Whatever the case, while the chattering classes will still go on about it ... it is still a woman's right of final decision. It is her body that has to house the foetus. It will be her decision to end it.

13

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 25/10/2007 06:42:22

Boy Wonder you have obviously never seen a baby removed in bits after having his or her brains drawn out.

14

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 25/10/2007 06:44:27
15

mina,

Glasgow 25/10/2007 07:07:28

This article won't be happy reading for womens groups who are fighting to keep the abortion limit as it is.
I am hopeful that the time limit will be reduced, 20 weeks gestation is more than enough time for a decision to be made.
I am not using religion for my views, I believe that Abortion is wrong to be used in the way it is at present.
I am aware of exceptions, and there is legislation to cover those.
It is obvious that sex and contraceptive education is required.
I am saddened to read the amount of Abortions carried out each year.

16

Guga II,

Rockall 25/10/2007 07:19:44

#11 Insanity is relative. As expected, the god botherers, true to form, immediately come out with their little horror videos to try and put the frighteners on normal people. Get a life, or a death, whichever comes first.

17

49th State,

Getting ready to hit the hay 25/10/2007 07:54:29

Most of the abortions commited these days are done on a small group of repeat offenders. Very few people are one time only offenders nowadays. It's the druggie, whore, Dweeb, and occational teen from a good home who are now doing this.

18

megz,

glasgow 25/10/2007 07:57:30

#15 i'm with you i agree 20 weeks seem more than enough time for a decision to be made. I think it should be there as an option and not made illegal again but 24 weeks is far too late, unless there are medical reasons for it i can't see why it would take that long to get one. More education is needed because becoming pregnant isn't the worst thing that can happen during sex.

19

49th State,

Getting ready to hit the hay 25/10/2007 08:06:50

# 18

Megz

Re: "becoming pregnant isn't the worst thing that can happen during sex."

Unless, you don't wish to become pregnant, of course.

20

Scottish AND British,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 08:13:42

Well said Guga II. Sanity is Relative, grow up.
There's a lot of hypocrisy and downright stupidity on the god-bothering side, notably the desire to do away with contraception, which would lead to more abortion. Bizarre.
I just hope we don't get into mad 'abortion war' type debates as some (albeit a minority) do in the US.

21

49th State,

Getting ready to hit the hay 25/10/2007 08:18:11

# 20

Abortion in the US is coming to an end as it is becoming harder find a place to perform one. Furthermore, Americans are starting to regain some of its wits now that the culture warriors from the 60's are getting old and dying off.

22

Carolyn2,

Perth 25/10/2007 08:28:42

The deadline issue is important here - because deadlines force decision. The reason that there are terminations carried out up to 24 weeks is that the deadline is 24 weeks - it allows the pregnant woman to think for that bit longer. If the deadline was 20 weeks the decision would have to be made by 20 weeks. There are occasions when, incredibly, women do not realise that they are pregnant until late in the term - but this is SO unusual that it should not be an issue in this discussion. Much better all round to create a situation where the decision has to be made earlier.

The other issue, of course, is responsiblity. While it is easy to say that the women involved here should have taken more care it is fact that they don't get pregnant on their own. It is too easy for the man to carry on regardless of contraception because, ultimately, he can walk away from the result. I notice that many of the anti-abortion comments seem to be from men - which is so often the case.

23

media watch,

Argyll 25/10/2007 08:34:55

Interesting how the abortionists resort so easily to personal abuse like 'god botherers'. Thus is most of the human race dismissed by such fools.

24

Boy Wonder,

25/10/2007 08:55:23

#13. Don't assume anything. You have no idea what I may or may not have seen. Besides, a foetus is not a baby until it is fully formed and existing outside the womb.

25

Xena - Warrior Princess,

25/10/2007 09:01:48

I do think the deadline is far too high for an abortion. I had to have a amniocentesis and I didn't get the results back until the baby was 20 weeks. By this time he was kicking and moving about and thank god he was fine and I was not put in the position of thinking about an abortion, I really don't know if I could have aborted the baby even if the results had went the other way.

26

JG,

Fife 25/10/2007 09:13:23

#8 Guga
My goodness Guga, you are an eloquent chap today! Well said!!

27

Rob, Edin,

sunnyleith 25/10/2007 09:15:44

An abortion for any other reason than the health of the woman or potential baby. Should be by hysterectomy - mebay then those females and there are plenty of them who use abortion as a form of contraception will think twice.

28

JG,

Fife 25/10/2007 09:28:03

#27 Rob
Followed swiftly by the irresponsible father being castrated for not being careful. Maybe then men will think of something other than their own sexual gratification.

29

McMicrogal,

25/10/2007 09:56:33

#24 Boy Wonder I am currently 19 weeks, my little stranger is kicking and wriggling about like mad and I feel a very strong bond with my child. If this is not a baby then what on earth do you suggest it is?

30

Gill,

West Lothian 25/10/2007 10:12:00

Guga II, couldn't have put it better myself. Having a termination is usually a very difficult and PERSONAL decision.

To focus on 'repeat offenders' using it as contraception is to totally scew the debate - like we've not seen that before from those with an agenda... Do we really want to go back to the dark old days when it was illegal? I don't think so.

As much as we would all like the whole population to live by our own rules and moral standards, that, I'm afraid isn't the real world.

31

ozlona,

Australia 25/10/2007 10:28:23

After losing three babies we were thrilled to finally have a pregnancy that kept going. Because of the problems we'd had in the past, we had scans done every week. We watched as our bub became a baby and I really do believe alot of people would be surprised at how early this happens. The most rewarding scan was the one we had at 19weeks where our little boy was sucking his thumb... and this he continues to do.
I believe every person has the right to choose whether they become a parent or not. However they should be making that decision for the right reasons and not simply because it's a bother. There are so many different methods of contraception in the world surely they could at least try one.
Abortions are a fact of life. If it isn't done in a clinic we would see many problems caused through backyard abortions and I thought we'd moved out of the dark ages.
I do believe the limit should be lowered. Just watching the changes in our growing bub proved that to me. At 23 weeks, our doctor told us if our bub was born he would be in for a battle but he did have a good chance of survival because of all the new technology.

So who is right? Both sides. A woman should be able to have an abortion if she so chooses but I'm sure if the limit was say 15weeks(an example only), she would make sure it was done before then. Why the need to wait till 24weeks unless it is really something she doesn't want to do but feels she has no other option? In which case, there is 'help' out there for her to go to.

The arguments are endless and I really don't think we'll ever see an answer that satisfies everyone at any time in my lifetime.

32

CS,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 10:32:12

What a lot of mysogynists there are out there. Rob of Sunny Leith shame on you. You want the women to pay for her 'offence' of an unwanted pregnancy by having an enforced hysterectomy but I notice you said nothing about the offending male having enforced sterilisation. Those of us who are rationale pro democracy types feel that abortion is a matter of 'choice'. Whether you choose to have one or help perform one should be a matter of choice with no coertion by others. No one in their right mind would 'choose' to have a late abortion, it is a horrific process not least for the individual who has to actually 'give birth'. Let us also be perfectly clear that it is only medical intervention that has made it possible for babies born so prematurely at around 24 weeks to survive. Make no mistake the vast majority would not survive in the real world. The fact remains despite medical advances, the vast majority of severely premature childrens life chances are materially damaged by their prematurity. For every one that goes on to acheive what could be considered 'normal' development hundreds more will not. However abortion should not be seen as a form of contraception and those who use it as such should be made aware of this by a tightening of the legal procedure involved. I seriously hope that rationale shall prevail and we do not see legal abortion becoming the preserve of the rich and back street abortion for the poor.

33

Giraffe,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 11:32:47

One of the subjects that brings out every self righteous person in the land - male and female. I bet half of the folk here opposing abortion are males who, they may think they do, but don't have a clue what they are talking about. As for the women, do you suggest that someone who wants an abortion (for whatever reason) should go ahead and have the baby just to keep someone who cant have a baby happy - hardly. As for all those who just don't agree with it, try getting raped then pregnant and see how you deal with that!

No. 5 - I hardly think it either that it's women having abortions that keeping your dad from his hip op. Some women have worked for years also so why should they pay for an abortion - cause it's perhaps self inflicted. Maybe your dad's bad hip is self inflicted. You sound like one of those bleaters who go on about paying council tax blah blah blah so have every right to everything, get real.

If a women or young girl wants an abortion then she has every right, no matter what all you self righteous folk say, to have one under any circumstances. If someone is having this done on a regular basis due to unprotected sex then their doctor should steralise them, or educate them on protection, no questions asked.

Having an abortion is a personal decision and unless you have been through it you cannot even imagine hard a decision it is to make, you can try but you won't be near it.

34

Boab,

Glasgow 25/10/2007 11:37:15

Well, without wanting starting a full-blown argument on this thread, the book 'Freakanomics' shows that legal abortion can be responsible for a large drop in a country's murder rate. The argument is pretty convincing if you give it a read.

The abortion issue is misused by fundamentalists trying to extend their influence over mainstream society; so we should defend our current abortion rights. It's a shame some people are unable to use these rights responsibly, though.

35

Ross Fyffe,

Scotland 25/10/2007 11:47:46

boy wonder no answer to no 29?

and I doubt if you have seen a baby die in the shiny basin or one that has had his or her brain aspirated ........

36

bruce borland,

Rights 25/10/2007 11:50:24

I agree with woman's rights...of course I do..but given that, should it not be a man's right to euthenize a woman prior to the 24th week of marriage based on undo hardship?...one should not find it hard to find a sympathetic doctor in pursuit of a pound of silver... absurd? Of course, but hey abortion is murder and legal and 13,000 woman exercise that right every year in Scotland alone, so guys let's go for it before we lose it all to divorce...and, hey, while at it, why not our rights as parents to do similar to our troubled and extremely annoying teens?...and migod why not our right to eliminate politicians?...the list goes on....we all have rights, not just woman and in this day of the morning after pill. you know the one, the one Rome does not like and Walmart refused to dispense. what right does a woman have to murder a living being at the expense of the NHS...exceptions, of course, but does a girl not know she was raped etc before 1 week?

37

bruce borland,

Rights 25/10/2007 11:56:27

Oh, by the way, I just changed my mind after finishing the other letters..I have now found 35 reason for abortion...especially, well, too many to mention, but the one who quotes the rediculous statement about the "murder rate"... well I have a bridge over the Ray for sale.

38

Giraffe,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 12:16:21

bruce borland - you've one of those pathetic men who just don't have a clue what they are talking about. I hardly think marriage can be classed as the same as an abortion. Did the poor wee husband not realise he didnt like his wife until 24 weeks, it's not the same as an abortion. Oh and the morning after pill your bleating on about at £25 a time am not surprised females don't go for it. Mistakes do happen whether you have protected sex or not, but again the government want to make money out of it, perhaps if it were cheaper then more females would go for it, if you go to your doctor for it then you get interrogated re your sex life for the past 100 years. Don't see a man having to go through all that do you! Everyone has an opinion on everything but unless you deal with it personally you can only speculate.

Also, you don't have a clue either how a young girl would feel to be raped, let alone find out later, yes later, after 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 months even, that she is pregnant. Go back under your chavanistic hole you obviously just crawled out of and have a bit of emphathy for folk.

39

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 12:31:52

I am vehemently against abortion - and yes, I am a male. To those who by free will choice deny the existence of God, that is your right. To those who believe in and serve God, that is your right. It is NOT a case of "educating" people, namely the females in our society, about contraceptives and such. Believe me, far fewer than anyone will admit already know about such things at a very early age. No matter who says what, whether anyone will agree or not, it boils down to plain and simple choice. So many have unprotected sex because they are either stupid, lazy, or have an unhealthy mixture of the both. "Oh, I am not bothered, I won't get pregnant, go on then, lets have sex." Or "Lets skip the condom love, I will pull out before I orgasm." It is NOT, I repeat NOT a case of not being educated, it is a case of choice - women who get pregnant do so by choice, either they want a baby, or they are sadly too lazy to use contraceptaves in the "heat of the moment" - please, lets hear all the idiotic numpties out there spout off endlessly about that one. And then the idiot males who are pushing the female to have sex in the first place, bullies and morons all of them. No, the human race needs to wise up - Eupope pretends to be so "mature" about the sex issue, pointing at America as being immature - but I say no country on the planet whose government has intervened and declared murder/termination/abortion to be legal is grossly immature - period. Lets just leave God and war out of it for a moment - at what point should it be legal for each of us to murder another? I for one am bloody tired of the debate over when life begins - sorry - but the minute the zygote starts zipping around in the womb, guess what, you have life people. I know that there are now several generations of women and men who adamantly defend the so-called "right" to terminate life in a woman's womb - but could it be that they are wro

40

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 12:32:49

Sorry, far more than anyone will admit is what I meant to say.

41

JG,

Fife 25/10/2007 12:40:39

#40 John
If you feel so strongly about the abortion issue - DON'T EVER HAVE ONE!!

42

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 12:44:21

That was a most solid and mature response #42 JG - very mature. I do believe though, following in the vein of your attempt at humour, if I were to become pregnant, I would be the most wealthy male on the planet now, wouldn't I?

43

Giraffe,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 12:54:47

No. 40 - you obviously missed JG point and more obviously prove that you think it is only a women who goes through an abortion. Having an abortion is not just about maturity - yes, it is life but it is still very much the right of the person carrying the baby to decide what to do - it has nothing to do with war or your beliefs in God. So if you get raped, or if your baby is deformed badly or if your life (sorry the womems) would be threatened by giving birth, that's ok is it to go ahead and have a child just because - well actually because what?? So if you help someone who is ill pass on does that mean you've committed murder too? There are no rights or wrongs here, things happen in life and decisions have to be made which most people would believe to be right at the time, whether we regret it or not later is a fact of life and you just have to get on with it.

44

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 13:20:16

It was never a "right" until our idiotic and spineless goverments made it a right. It is you Giraffe, and others like you, who do not "get" the point. I am fully aware that males are affected in the abortion issue as well. I am fully aware of a myriad host of information on both sides of the issue, and it still starkly points to being irresponsible, immature, and spineless to make that choice to terminate/murder/abort a baby. Yes, IF and only IF a woman's life is at stake and there is absolutely not another way to prevent it - at that time and at that time ONLY should an abortion ever be performed. And for those out there who seem to be so smugly informed and all-knowing on this subject, if you read your history - case books from doctors in times past WELL BEFORE abortion was made legal - professional doctors NEVER wanted to perform them at all - only if it put the mother in mortal danger. My mother is a most progressive modern woman, and she detests abortion. It is her staunch belief that if a woman doesn't want a pregnancy, then don't bloody have unprotected sex. (He words, not mine.) She has said on more than one occasion that both men and women behave most irresponsibly, and instead of owning up to their responsibility, they use the "right-to-abortion" excuse to "get out of trouble". Painfully indicative and absolutely supports MY (that's right, MY assertion) view that abortion is merely the sick and modern way of sidestepping one's responsibility, both female and male. As the Americans are so apt to say, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

45

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 13:29:57

And now for an area of the "right" that no one has or seems willing to comment on. There are loads of women out there, some who have had more than one abortion, who are now very much against having an abortion. They have not only murdered their own offspring, but they have damaged themselves mentally as well as physically, many to the point where they can never have a child ever again. Is fighting for and having this "right" worth not being able to procreate? Even under the best of conditions, things can and have gone horribly wrong in abortions, endangering the lives of women far more than just simply having the child and adopting it out. What is wrong with people in these modern times? Is the defense of a flawed thought process that gave the "right" to an abortion - in the guise of "hey don't you dare mess with my rights" so paramount that life itself is counted as less worthy? Or have we as a global society gone over the top so far as to count life as cheap and worthless? Apparently so. Just remember this, and at the expense of being called melodramatic, if we continue to abort ourselves, and slowly over time become a sterile planet, who will be around to champion such stupidity?

46

Giraffe,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 13:32:38

It is you No. 45 who does not get the point. Or your mother by the sounds of it. Doesn't she know a condom can burst, or the pill is only 99.9% reliable, and yes, that 0.1% has caused a lot of unwanted pregnancies. You seem hell bent on getting YOUR point across but that is all it is - your opinion. We are all entitled to our own, that does not make me or anyone else who doesn't agree with YOU wrong. Until you personally (which luckily will never happen) go through the emotions of deciding to terminate your baby then you ought to keep your nazi opinion to yourself.

47

Kobi,

25/10/2007 13:33:59

#8

"Religion is the opium of the masses and a crutch for the weak-minded. So, keep your mythological beliefs to yourself, mind your business and let normal people get on with minding their business"

Ah, there is none so fanatical as the fundamentalist aetheist. So sure of his irrational beliefs and so intolerant of the beliefs of others.

"there is no god"

Prove it.

48

Boy Wonder,

25/10/2007 13:37:39

#29. I wish you well in your pregnancy. As you may know, there is a continuing argument about when the foetus "becomes" a baby. Religion states that it is during the "quickening" when a soul enters the foetus. Humanists take a more scientific view that it is a baby when it can exist outside the womb and independently of the mother's placenta and umbilical chord.

You pay your money and you makes your choice. Mine is that of the humanists, but I couldn't convince my partner of that ... and that's fair enough. A woman bonds with her child at a deeper, more emotional level than most men. I'm not going to argue that, which is why my partner always has the last word. As long as religion is "oot the windae", she knows her kids better than anybody ... even though I do try hard.

#35. Doubt what you like. I don't give a toss what you think. You do not know me or what I do for a living. I'm certainly not on the computer all the time responding to idiots like you! I have a life!

49

Kobi,

25/10/2007 13:37:55

#8

"It's a bit like the so-called "right to life" mob of good christians in America. They are so sure of their "rightness" that they will kill anyone that is involved in abortion clinics.

"Obviously, to them, the "right to life" depends on whose side you are on. Don't you just love these religious types? Disagree with them and, suddenly, you have no right to life."


Well that's a pretty dumb argument, proceeding by way of massive generalisation. The number of people involved in bombing abortion clinics in the US is miniscule compared to the number of ""right to life" mob of good christians". You cannot take the criminal acts of a few and extrapolate it to all the rest.

That would be like condemning all Scottish nationalists for the actvities of the SNLA. Absurd.

50

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 13:48:37

Well well Giraffe. I am a Nazi now am I? And I have been wrong a good many times, and will be again, as will we all. It is not me in the spotlight but the reprehensible and grossly irresponsible decision that made it legal to abort - PERIOD. Perhaps, just perhaps, if the women who agonise over having an abortion are agonising over "I wish I had used contraceptives" instead, it puts things in a much clearer perspective. Of course I know condoms and invasive contraceptives fail. You may gleefully qoute statictics all you wish, but more often than not is what fails is a person's will use contraceptives to prevent a pregnancy in the first place. And that comes right back to personal responsibility, and the "C" word - CHOICE. If you choose to go ahead and have unprotected sex, then don't try and use the excuse "oh - I can just have an abortion and all is well." Sorry, but those who are as adamant about having the right to an abortion as I am about forever repealing it are just being irresponsible on SEVERAL levels, not just for having been stupid or lazy and gotten pregnant in the first place. That brings up yet ANOTHER point no one seems to want to bring up. How about abstinence? Wow, ponder that one. Say no, and pregnancy becomes impossible now, doesn't it? My my, am I standing on your toes Giraffe? Can I get an amen?

51

Andrew, Peebles,

25/10/2007 13:51:59

Everyone, in their heart of hearts, knows that abortion is wrong. Why else would the women who elect to have the procedure carried out feel so guilty?

52

Weegie58,

25/10/2007 13:56:11

People using the term 'God botherer' usually give evidence of being the most 'bothered' people themselves. This thread is no exception.

The Channel 4 programme last week on abortion was the most disturbing thing I've ever seen on tv and it's good to see so many people who commented on the C4 site saying that this made them rethink their position again about the whole issue.

53

Giraffe,

Edinburgh 25/10/2007 14:13:11

No. 51 - you seem to think that all females who have had abortions take the decision lightly and it only happened because they were too lazy to use protection. I don't agree either with the one who do use abortion as contraception but that is only a percentage - what about the rest, these are the folk that I would support, in fact to be honest I'd support anyone who wanted an abortion, I may not agree with their reasoning behind it but hey, it's their life, not mine or yours. The Law is there for a reason which in turn DOES give a women the right to decide what to do regarding her pregnancy. There are zillions of other Laws which folk don't agree with but it'd be a funny old world if we all had the same opinion. Lets go back to the good old days will we with tons of orphanages opened up with unwanted children, being abused (in some of these establishments), lets see how we'd all get on then.

54

Kobi,

25/10/2007 14:23:06

#34

"Well, without wanting starting a full-blown argument on this thread, the book 'Freakanomics' shows that legal abortion can be responsible for a large drop in a country's murder rate. The argument is pretty convincing if you give it a read."

That book was by the economist Steven Levitt. Another economist John Lott, has gone back to the original data, looked at it more carefully, taking into account relevant factors that Levitt ignored, and has concluded that the opposite was in fact the case. Read "Why the Free Market Works and Other Half-Baked Theories Don't" for an interesting argument. Levitt in turn has looked once more at the data, and has apparently refined it further. I have not yet read his further views though.

55

Guga II,

Rockall 25/10/2007 14:23:46

#48 Kobi.

If you attempted to understand what I was saying, which obviously you didn't, you would have realised that I don't mind people having their very own weird beliefs and mythologies. I only object to them trying to force their views and beliefs down my throat. That is not intolerant. On the contrary, it is very tolerant. It is the religious fanatics that are intolerant.

My "irrational beliefs" are neither irrational, or beliefs. I just don't believe in your mythical sky god, or any others for that matter.

As for your rather silly comment asking me to prove there is no god, surely it is up to you to prove there is one? It is impossible to prove something does not exist when there is no proof that it does. You, however, seem convinced that there is a god, so surely it is up to you to prove its existence? You could always try calling on your sky god to strike down all the unbelievers with a bolt of lightning.

In any event, till you can prove the existence of your particular form of mythology, I suggest you stop trying to force your mythological beliefs on other people, and that includes wanting laws framed to enforce your weird concepts.

56

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 14:25:33

Oh you are too right #54 Giraffe, why oh why am I arguing with you or anyone else on this issue? Lets just sweep it under the rug along with your lame generalisation of "zillions of other laws which folk don't agree with." Yes, everyone has rights, and we should do everything we can to not only champion them, but fight against everyone who challenges them, right or wrong. As for the good old days, well, the people are the same now as they were then, selfish, HELLBENT (remember that one eh Giraffe?) on getting THEIR way, irrespectful of the damage it may do to someone else, but hello? these are my rights, yes? Champion rights! Down with ANYONE who challenges my rights!

57

SJD,

Aberdeen. 25/10/2007 14:27:17

#5 You clearly don't know a great deal about doctors or infact the NHS. Doctors don't carry out abortions, nurses do. Also, every doctor has their own field of expertise so the doctor who doesn't even carry out abortions, wouldn't be operating on your father's hip.

Every woman should have the right to abortion but it shouldn't be "just another method of contraception" and the limit should be decreased to twenty weeks.

The number of abortions in the country is disgraceful and more than likely down to people not taking adequate precausions but surely it's better to allow abortions to take place rather than let a child be brought into the world to be dragged up by some incompetent fools and more than likely live off state benefit. Which is most likely to be the case as statistically, more well off females are more likely to have an abortion than their less well off counterparts.

The morning after pill is pretty much a mini abortion if you think that life exists as soon as the egg is fertilised.

In some cases such as my friends, she needed an abortion and it was held up because the doctors surgery staff forgot to phone her and book the appointment.

Boy Wonder you are completely wrong to say the baby is still a foetus until it's born. As a biologist, I can tell you the baby is pretty much fully formed after 30 weeks and just growing in size.

Also, I'm religious and I fully believe in abortion for the right reasons.

Andrew #52, I hate to disappoint you but I don't think abortion is wrong nor does every woman feel guilty about having one. Anyone I know who's had one feels they made the correct decision.

I'm not entirely convinced men should really have an opinion or a decision on abortion as you'll never have to go through, nor will you ever know what it is like to carry a child. Saying that, I've never had an abortion or a child but I am a woman.

58

Guga II,

Rockall 25/10/2007 14:27:17

#53 Weegie58. Yes, some people are "bothered" by god botherers, as these types of people try and force their beliefs on others, even to the extent of trying to have laws framed to uphold their mythology.

Don't bother us, and we won't bother you. If you want to pray all day Sunday, or refuse you or yours having an abortion, fine; but don't bother the rest of us by trying to make us pray all day Sunday, and don't try to stop us or ours having abortions.

59

Kobi,

25/10/2007 14:30:14

The 1967 Act as amended effectively says that an abortion is not illegal up to 24 weeks if two doctors decide that the risk to a woman’s physical or mental health or the risk to her child(ren)’s physical or mental health will be greater if she continues with the pregnancy than if she ends it.

How many well is the law being adhered to? How searching is the examination the two doctors must make to ascertain the relative risks (serious question, I've never being in the position of having that interview)?

Do some doctors just automatically take it as a given?

60

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 14:35:59

Given.

61

Martha,

25/10/2007 14:41:18

GC in Murietta, CA: No, Dog (Chapman) does not believe in abortion-- he's the father of 12 children. So your bringing up Dog's name is puzzling. (It's not like I don't know you really meant God.)

Abortion is a terrible thing. It isn't just a quick and easy method of birth control. Women and girls who undergo abortions, for whatever reason, run a very real risk of severe emotional repercussions, to say nothing of possible physical consequences. And of course there's a dead and usually dismembered babyinvolved too, but apparently nobody cares about that.

I used to regard abortion as an act of desperation, giving the people who had abortions the benefit of the doubt. No longer. The law is no helpwhatsoever; in many countries, an unborn baby has rights of inheritance, but not the right to live. This is totally contradictory. In other words, the baby only has the right to live if its mother approves of its life; if she wants it to live up to a natural birth, then it has all the civil rights of any individual at any other stage of life. If she doesn't, then she has the right to murder it.

This is the slippery slope that leads to, among other things, euthanasia, eugenics, and mass murder of one group of people deemed by another group of people to be somehow "unfit."

62

Andrew, Peebles,

25/10/2007 14:42:46

58.

"I'm not entirely convinced men should really have an opinion or a decision on abortion as you'll never have to go through."

Great point…

The idea that there is some cut off point before which it is ok to end the life of a human is absolutely bizarre. It was not ok yesterday, but today, hey, fire ahead! (And before anyone says ‘it’s the law’, I know it is the law, and it is the law that I am criticising and would like changed). Why the law should give women the authority to make this decision is beyond me.

Women were lucky enough to get the vote for goodness sake


(That was a joke)

63

Martha,

25/10/2007 14:43:00

Kobi: Maybe you can explain how doctors use their crystal balls to determine whether a woman will have more angst after an abortion than she would have had in giving birth to a full-term infant.

64

Martha,

25/10/2007 14:52:33

Giraffe: I agree with you that abortion is an extremely difficult issue. And, there are certainly times when it is justified. For example, if a 12 year old is found to be pregnant, then clearly she is the victim of rape, whether violent or statutory, and abortion may be a better solution in that case.

But what is really sickening about this whole issue is that in countries where people demonstrate and vote and argue and riot and ultimately renounce the death penalty for the most depraved murderers, the killing of the most helpless and innocent human beings is not thought of as evil, but rather as an alternative to other forms of contraception that the sex partners are too stupid, lazy, or ignorant to use.

65

Charles Linskaill,

With Heart! 25/10/2007 15:01:32

Its often I come on these pages, having a 'rant', but today because of this issue, i would really like to tell what its like from both sides of the coin, unfortunately not the Babies.
I have two girls (grown up now) with my ex, we were one of the first in Edinburgh to use the at that time, the new birthing room at our hospital to have our second child, which was a marvelous experience.
We also went through one termination, although that was years ago, even as a guy I don't forget about this dreaded time, so what it like for the Woman must be worse! and 'The terminated Baby', we can only imagine, if our minds let us, or possibly if you are religious, you might meet your dead Baby again someday!
As many of you know my DYW (darling young wife) and I have been TTC (trying to conceive) for 10years now, had a little help about 3years ago but no luck, we are lucky to have been given an appointment date soon to start trying for a 'BaBa' again soon.
Both my DYW and I don't have hate fr anyone that has had an abortion, but its something we both could never do, unless under Extreme circumstances, but even at that my DYW, would rather die herself, than terminate a Baby inside her.
As many should know, a 'Baby' is FULLY FORMED at about 12weeks, then its 'grow, grow, grow', so YES the 'Mums-to-Be' on here at about 18-20 weeks, it is A CHILD you feel, She or HE doesn't suddenly turn into a Baby at birth!
Also as many said, its an argument with NO easy answer, for me now, after years of having a wife working with Babies and all the courses I help her with my attitude has changed on abortion, you see even when my wife thought she was pregnant, that was it, it WAS OUR BABY, and my wife would be very careful in all she did and even I felt all 'father-like' and protective!
Life starts at conception DAY1, I used to think it was OK to abort at 20weeks, then 15weeks, but after doing a study on conception to birth, I think 15weeks is a 'no-no'!
So

66

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich England 25/10/2007 15:02:17

Thank you Martha.

67

SJD,

Aberdeen. 25/10/2007 15:08:58

#62. Martha, it's simply not true that abortion usually involves a dismembered foetus. The suction method is only used in the late stages. The overwhelming majority of abortions are done by the pill method in which case the foetus is passed in one piece.

68

wattie>x 1,

25/10/2007 15:12:08

I dislike to quote a previous reply to a similar forum, but here goes!
In the year 2007, providing a female has the minimum of intelligence; she has no "NEED EVER" to become pregnant, with the easy availabilty off the many varied contraceptive "tools" or, use the oldest practice known to previous generations, but rarely used these days it seems; cross their legs, and say NOT TONIGHT MATE!

69

Boab,

Glasgow 25/10/2007 15:20:36

#55 Kobi: I confess I've never heard of 'Freedonomics'. Sample from it's Amazon blurb:

"Why legalized abortion leads to family breakdown, which creates more crime"

"Why the controversial assertions made in the trendy book Freakonomics are almost entirely wrong"

Sounds like Ann Coulter forgots to take her meds one day and wrote an economics book. Feel free to point me to any useful articles on it though.

70

Kobi,

25/10/2007 15:28:14

#56

"If you attempted to understand what I was saying, which obviously you didn't, you would have realised that I don't mind people having their very own weird beliefs and mythologies. I only object to them trying to force their views and beliefs down my throat. That is not intolerant. On the contrary, it is very tolerant. It is the religious fanatics that are intolerant.

My "irrational beliefs" are neither irrational, or beliefs. I just don't believe in your mythical sky god, or any others for that matter."

Mmmm. You protest a lot about being tolerant but your words scream otherwise.

Aetheism is a religion just like any other. It is irrational as it is based purely and utterly on faith. As your words show, it is equally as intolerant as most religions. Nothing more.


"As for your rather silly comment asking me to prove there is no god, surely it is up to you to prove there is one? "

Sorry, no. You made the assertion "Well here's another news flash for you: there is no god." I have not asserted that there is a god. You have made a statement without any evidence to back it up. The problem you fanatical aetheists
have, and it drives you nuts, is based on the best principles of science, you cannot prove your theory. So it is a belief, nothing more. No different from those that believe.

The only scientifically rational position is agnosticsm.


And nowhere have I advocated "wanting laws framed to enforce your weird concepts." I believe that the only time the state should intervene is to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

71

Kobi,

25/10/2007 15:33:14

#64

"Kobi: Maybe you can explain how doctors use their crystal balls to determine whether a woman will have more angst after an abortion than she would have had in giving birth to a full-term infant."

No crystal ball here. We are talking about amending the existing law, when I suspect that the existing law is not really complied with as it is. I have read (many years ago) the parliamentary debates relating to the passage of the 1967 Act (and also of the amending legislation), and my feeling is that what we currently have is not what Parliament intended. That is reinforced by recent comments from Sir David Steel.

Whether there SHOULD be abortion on demand in law is another matter.

72

Leila,

25/10/2007 15:38:48

I do wonder what kind of debate we'd be having if it was possible (and I expect one day it will be) for a foetus to grow in an artificial womb, making any abortion time limit irrelevant.