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City transport bosses ready to ask Holyrood for trams bail-out cash



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Published Date: 29 November 2008
By CHRIS MARSHALL
TRANSPORT bosses may be forced to go back to the Scottish Government in a last-ditch bid to secure extra funds for the Capital's tram project, the city's transport convener has admitted.
Councillor Phil Wheeler said the city council would look at approaching ministers for cash for the doomed line 1b between Roseburn and Granton.

Plans for the £87 million spur line are expected to be dropped, with the tram project now facing a mounting cash crisis.

But Cllr Wheeler said the city council would consider approaching Holyrood once more, despite Finance Secretary John Swinney repeatedly warning that there will be "not a penny more" for the project.

Speaking as the first set of tram tracks were delivered to Leith yesterday, Cllr Wheeler said: "I'm determined that on my watch, we will deliver what we said we would. I'm delighted to see the rails arrive, and they are evidence that this is a serious project and that we are able to deliver."

Asked if the council would consider approaching the Scottish Government for funds for line 1b, he said: "Yes, but whether they have any cash for it is another matter. Who knows what the state of the economy will be like in a few years? There could be a big appetite for public works. The tram scheme is on its way and just needs money to finish it off."

Earlier this year, Mr Swinney apologised to an SNP conference for having to use Government cash to pay for the trams.

A Scottish Government spokesman today said its position on funding had not changed.

He said: "We've made it clear we will make available up to £500m for Edinburgh's trams. Development and funding of further tram lines is entirely a matter for the city council and Transport Initiatives Edinburgh."

Work on laying the tracks for line 1a, due to run from Newhaven to Edinburgh Airport, is expected to begin early next year.

Yesterday saw the first delivery of the tracks, which are being supplied by Austrian firm VAE.

Sources close to the tram project have told the Evening News that the slowing economy has now made line 1b a "non starter".

However, the city council insists that no final decision has been made on whether to go ahead with the project. It has so far banked just £3m of the £25m it planned to raise from developers' contributions for line 1a.


The full article contains 413 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 November 2008 11:06 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

Niko Bellic,

29/11/2008 12:01:15
Translated as:

"Councillor Wheeler said something."

Come back when they've gone cap in hand to Holyrood, not just acknowledged it as a possibility. Then they'll get a right verbal shoeing.

But for now, let's not comment any further on this, because councillor Wheeler has only acknowledged a possibility. Fank u and good nite.
2

alex paterson,

edinburgh 29/11/2008 12:03:05
And they said it would never happen,if you cant afford it forget it,and leave well alone.
3

The Judge,

29/11/2008 12:09:01
Here's what big Phil told the BBC yesterday afternoon.

"I'm confident that we are still on budget and that we can deliver it on time - I have no reason to believe otherwise."

And again to the EEN yesterday afternoon.

"I'm determined that on my watch, we will deliver what we said we would. I'm delighted to see the rails arrive, and they are evidence that this is a serious project and that we are able to deliver."

Is there any protrammies left who believes a single word this guy says? The facts don't lie Phil, the project is over budget and already months behind.

"His watch" Jesus Phil how long were you in New York?
4

toottoot,

forfar 29/11/2008 12:09:13
The anti-tram brigade tend to be rather parochial and little travelled outside their own country. Lots of them bring a car into the city every day, which is selfish.

Treat yourselves to a look at the transport system in Germany, boys!
5

Hmm ...,

29/11/2008 12:20:37
... Cllr Wheeler said "The tram scheme is on its way and just needs money to finish it off."

Deluded, just deluded!

Which part of "We've made it clear we will make available up to £500m for Edinburgh's trams. Development and funding of further tram lines is entirely a matter for the city council and Transport Initiatives Edinburgh" did he not quite grasp?

Is this man the full shilling? On the other hand, if you have already lost all credibility, there is not a lot more to lose by asking.

Perhaps at this stage, Mr Wheeler should consider just to what extent "The tram scheme is on its way". If they closed up the road holes, they would find that there was absolutely no evidence of the tram works. Other than the money spent so far, so course, but hey, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

You can't learn by experience if you don't act on it.
6

rs,

.s on the seat on the 26 29/11/2008 12:24:48
4 toottoot forfar

have you looked at the route map for the tram

think not.

the only part of the tram line that will serve car commuters, is on the west at the airport, think the tram line will serve the P&R ?

have you been following the Great Edinburgh Tram Farce


various prices have been thrown around for the actual price of the Tram.

1a was £500m (£500m from Scottish Government), this then rose to £513m and that was supposed to be the final price

line 1b was £87m, with money to be found by CEC from Developers and other sources.

£546m is the pot of money that TIE has banked ,

As someone commented, funny how these stories are slipped out from TIE at the weekends.

Headline should have Read "Wheeler is Found"

Amazing the rails have been sourced from Austria, so much for supporting the Scottish Economy
7

Niko Bellic,

29/11/2008 12:25:05
#4

"The anti-tram brigade tend to be rather parochial "

1. It's not a brigade, it's a vast majority of taxpayers.

2. Being called 'parochial' by someone from Forfar is like being called a Gipsy by someone that lives in a caravan and goes round the doors asking to fix saucepans.

3. The trams are dead. And Edinburgh's not in Germany.

Auf wiedertramsprechen

Niko.
8

jdships,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 12:31:17
4 toottoot,forfar

Please don't be so patronising
Why not accept the facts - Edinburgh will gain nothing from this project other than a tourist attraction.
8/10% will benifit - fact
As for your comments on looking at other systems I have seen tram systems all over thw world during 50 years work travel and have never once seen a system compatable with the geography of our City
9

Mist001,

Marseille 29/11/2008 13:06:23
""I'm determined that on my watch, we will deliver what we said we would."

I think the first politician I heard using the 'On my watch' phrase was Tony Bliar, he was attempting to take responsibility for some mistake or something. It was said purely to invoke the feeling of the good old days, that war time spirit amongst the British people, of an officer standing on deck of a warship, staring into the cold, black distance.

When Cllr Wheeler uses the same phrase about the trams then to me, it just doesn't seem to invoke the same gravitas!

Michael.
10

,

29/11/2008 13:07:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Euan,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 13:30:22
This is disgraceful and yet more evidence that this money-gulping project will be a burden on the whole of Scotland for little or no return..

NOT A PENNY MORE TO THESE SCOUNDRELS, MR SWINNEY.

STAND FIRM.
12

Havelock Vetinari,

leith 29/11/2008 13:30:24
Has anyone at EEN actually looked at the plans for this farce.......you can print "newhaven to the airport" every day, but that does not make it true ! This line goes from Ocean Terminal to The Gyle, try doing your job instead of printing TIE press-releases.
13

,

29/11/2008 13:47:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Niko Bellic,

29/11/2008 13:52:44


ITS.NOT.TRAMS.THEY.NEED.ITS.TANKS.THIS.IS.WAR
15

Niko Bellic,

29/11/2008 13:54:40


I'M.AWAY.UP.THE.TOWN.FOR.TO.BUY.A.LOTTERY.TICKET.AND.TWENTY.BENSONS.
16

dba,

Haymarket 29/11/2008 14:08:33
This story and the whole tram saga is an absolute FIASCO...the departure at short notice of both the Chairman of TIE and Lothian Regional Transport SHOULD have woken the Scottish Government and Audit Scotland UP!

I call upon the Finance Scertary of the Scottish Government to instruct an immediate and independent investigation into all aspects of the pricing, tendering and issuance of decisions and contracts involved in this scheme.

I call upon the Lord Advocate to consider a detailed inquiry into the lamentable lack of supervision by the City of Edinburgh Council and Councillor Wheeler as to why they have permitted repeated illegal and un-necessary obstruction of the public highways during the construction phases of this project.

I call for an examination into the system whereby workers are considered 'self-employed' and paid on a 'per day' basis - thereby hazarding timely completion of various phases.

I call for an investigation into inadequate and attentive supervision of each phase of the contract works and failure to maintain materials control and analysis prior infilling and resurfacing of excavations.

IN THE EVENT OF 'FURTHERFUNDING' being required, I call upon Councillor Wheeler and the Transport Committee to be required to 'stand down' and thereafter face a full judicial review into their conduct, statements and decisions.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and I call upon John Swinney to act with urgency before the financial fiasco that occurred during the construction of the Scottish Parliament buildings is REPEATED! WAKE UP MR. SWINNEY!



17

tumshie heid,

29/11/2008 15:08:12
Trams are doomed, he is like comical Ali in Iraq saying "there is no invasion" as the tanks rolled past.
18

P I Staker,

29/11/2008 15:47:45
# we could send you cooncillor Wheeler
19

Jwil,

29/11/2008 15:48:19
What is going on? Yesterdy we were told that the project is on time and within budget, today the opposite. There seems to be a lot of c**p being bandied about.
20

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 15:57:44
dba (16) - interesting comment. I also understand that the reinstatement works so far have been quite appalling and virtually unmonitored by the Council. I also gather that Shandwick Place is to be taken up again as the pipes were not bedded in properly and the road surface is now subsiding. Have you heard this?

Very worrying as it will leave our cash-strapped Council with the considerable cost of redoing the job.
21

tumshie heid,

29/11/2008 16:21:00
#19 We weren't told that it was on time/budget yesterday. We were told that Wheeler said it was on time and in budget. Two entirely different things!
We have been made a fool of with the trams but soon the funding will dry up.
22

anjum,

29/11/2008 16:22:02
what a total waste of money. ditch it now and spend the cash on the things we want it spent on like schools, adult education, care for the elderly, leisure centres, safer cycle routes, youth clubs, good bus services, road repairs, support for small businesses, cultural facilities, an effective recycling scheme, maintaining Edinburgh's world class architecture etc.. things that benefit us all not just a couple of hundred unfortunate souls who've bought a flat down in granton harbour.
23

jackhobbs,

glasgow 29/11/2008 16:43:24
They were warned that it would end in tears. The streets in Edinburgh were never meant for trams they have a substantial 'local authority owned bus system' that appears to function rather well although not as well as Glasgow's privatised system. Finish the existing part of the project 'which will of course run over budget' and then take a vow never but never to get involved in a difficult project which could fail. The next saga will be the new Forth Road Bridge. Solution - Get a foreign firm in to design, build and then sign up to a fixed price contract and you may have some success. Do not let time served civil servants, politicians and sub standard scottish executives any where near the project. Most of all do not let any elected 'has been's' from Edinburgh have any say whatsoever in the project !!!!
24

Niko Bellic,

29/11/2008 17:01:15
Honey you know I've met a lot of cool chicks but I've never met a lady with all her own teeth. You got style, you got class, but most of all, you got love technique.
25

Dileas,

29/11/2008 17:08:12
I really can't believe that Cllr Wheeler believes that he can keep this dismal affair going by appealling to the Scottish Government for more cash - they have said "NO" and so much of what they reluctantly contributed has been spent on rewiring with nothing to show in terms of actual progress in putting these oversized trams on the road.

Is it true that they are to be railway gauge so that they can use both tram track and railways?

Imagine Railtrack letting these buffoons loose on their permanent way!

But if the budget doesn't stretch to completing the line at least to the depot at Gogar, how are they to get people out to the airport (probably the only location with the potential to be a high generator of passengers)? And how will they service the trams themselves?
26

rs,

. they've made of the fiances 29/11/2008 17:12:54

Like some Panto - Please Sir Can we have some more!

27

rs,

they've made of the finances 29/11/2008 17:13:22
Like some Panto - Please Sir Can we have some more!
28

rs,

in ma house 29/11/2008 17:16:16
yip only the other day it was the Tartan Tram and some mock up that they were wasting money on.

And now they've got a cheek to ask for more

greed?
29

Padraig,

29/11/2008 17:21:00
I see that Duncan in Edinburgh isn't on line today. Is he really Duncan McLaren, of Fiends of the Earth?

If so, he should be ashamed of himself and for more than being a paid propagandist!
30

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 17:21:18
#20; not heard anything about Shamblewick Place (as it's to be renamed), but I heard a suspicious story about Leith Walk. It's alleged that, instead of bedding the pipes into a resilient layer, concrete was poured direct on top. I understand concrete expands slightly as it cures, so crushing the pipes. I'm not a civil engineer but there's a whiff of truth about the tale. That's on top of the other one about lack of seals on the pipe flanges. I've also been told by a senior member of Highways staff
that the reinstatements are 'dreadful' but their Inspectors are warned off. Anybody out there confirm?
31

Padraig,

29/11/2008 17:21:53
Is he not online because it is Saturday and he doesn't work Saturdays?
32

Padraig,

29/11/2008 17:26:29
Thomas (30) - that's amazing if true - I can't believe that the City Council would deliberately permit sub-standard road repairs to keep the tramline on schedule - they would need to repair the repairs not long after laying the track - and you can imagine the urgency that the tracklaying will need!

On the other hand, if the project is to be scrapped altogether, they may be happy enough for the roads to be dug up again - the roadworks would obstruct traffic almost as much as the trams, just for not as long.
33

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 17:28:11
#19 - I think the weasel words 'Father Jack' Wheeler was scripted to say yesterday were that 'as far as he was aware, Das TramKarLINE was on time and on budget 'cos nobody had told him any different. That's a political escape catflap if ever I saw one!
And #6, I did remark a fortnight or so ago that it was getting monotonous that Bad News Tram stories always seemed to be slipped to the Embra Chip-Wrapper late on a Friday Afty!
34

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 17:34:47
#32 - I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the City Council would deliberately permit sub-standard road repairs, but the 'operational staff' (as opposed to the Dreamers in Suits) are demoralised, completely overwhelmed by the volume of works and can't possibly inspect everything. Even if they weren't subjected to massive political pressure not to rock the boat. Saving political face is more important than even getting the first TramCar to stutter along the LINE.
35

The real dracula,

29/11/2008 19:03:12
marvellous the tax payers to bail the govenment out again.
As a tax payer who will never use the trams I am annoyed at this.
36

NorT,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 19:35:39
As a tax payer and a council tax payer then the trams should not get one penny more and wheeler should resign as he is not up to the job.

#30 and others - if there are problems with the re-instatment of the road it is your right and duty as a citizen to report it to the Council (via Clarence if oyu wish) and copy it into the local councillors. Then if they ignore they can had for dreeliction of duty and the matter can be reported to the Commissioner
37

Don't believe the hype.,

Embra 29/11/2008 21:27:04
Who are these bams who are allegedly running this city. Get them to f *** NOW.
38

Icebreaker,

newbridge 29/11/2008 22:07:29
Again we have the Edinburgh whinge brigade.Perhaps they hav'nt noticed but the work is well under way,and on budget.
Once Line One is up and running successfully the whingers I'm sure will look for something else to moan about.
39

Leila,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 22:20:54
#38: I don't consider it "whingeing" to make valid points about disgraceful mismanagement and waste of public money on the tram project. Besides, the story is about Councillor Wheeler's plans to go begging for more money because the work is so obviously NOT on budget. Like almost everyone else who has commented on this story, I would be appalled if the Scottish Government even entertained any notion of providing any more money for trams - how much clearer could they have made it that "not a penny more" would be available?
40

Euan,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 22:23:31
#38

The work may be underway, but it is FAR from being on budget and the tram LINE will hopefully never be up and running.

With a bit of luck it will be completely shelved in the very near future saving Edinburgh and all it's citizens from decades of crippling subsidies to keep this vanity project running (and yes 'Icebreaker' from Newbridge, you are one of those very citizens)
41

Statsman,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 22:35:05
Abandon this farce.
42

The real dracula,

29/11/2008 22:36:50
#38 the work is not on budget thts why they are asking for more money. That is the reason for this article !!!!!

People are entitled to post comments without being classed as whingers , not everyone has to agree and they are allowed to express this.

Personally I have no views on the trams Im not going to be using but I object to our hard earned taxes being used to bail out a project that doesnt benefit us all.
43

Icebreaker,

newbridge 29/11/2008 22:54:57
#42 Line One A is on budget is what I meant.Line One B
is not being constructed at the moment since the funding is not in place.I do class people as whingers who will not accept the will of our elected representatives in receiving professional opinion and accurate costings of Line One A before passing it by a majority vote.
44

Euan,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 23:01:42
#43

LINE A is NOT on budget at all.

The construction is running weeks if not months behind schedule.

The 'elected representatives' you mention were all blinkered in the extreme when it came to voting on this insane project.

Regardless of the obvious flaws that the project plans were showing, these muppets stupidly and selfishly forced through this scheme without one iota of thought about the damage they would inflict on The City of Edinburgh and all the people who live here - and all so they could satisfy their twisted visions of trying to create a 'green' tram 'network'.

SCRAP THE WHOLE PROJECT NOW.
45

Icebreaker,

newbridge 29/11/2008 23:08:02
Calm down Euan,the line's being built.Trams will be carrying thousands of passengers a day from summer 2011.You'll just have to accept that as fact.Now go and have a nice cup of tea.
46

Euan,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 23:17:37
#45

Perfectly calm thank you very much.

The trams will not come close to carrying 'thousands of passengers every day' as they will simply not be going where thousands of people would want to go.

You seem to have been well and truly hoodwinked by all the propaganda that has been churned out by various sources in the recent past on the subject of trams.

As for the trams completed by 2011? - not a chance, they are going to be scrapped when common sense finally prevails over this disgraceful project.

Why have a cup of tea when there's a can of Stella available?
47

tumshie heid,

29/11/2008 23:29:30
#45 Icebreaker. The trams have already hit their own iceberg. They are doomed and will no doubt be sunk soon. It is complete fantasy to suggest that they will be up and running by 2011 and on budget. Dream on.
48

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 23:40:44
Thomas (34) - that conforms with what I am hearing has been the case from the start and may explain the mass exodus from a certain Council department. Professional staff cannot be told to compromise their judgement/standards without the most pressurised choosing to take their expertise where it is more valued.

It has come as a real shock to me, in studying this project, to realise how little the public interest/finance is protected in the face of political will and to realise that important decisions are often made on inadequate, or in some instances, completing missing information by people who do not have the slightest understanding of the issues involved.

If the SNP cave in to this latest ridiculous request, then they will prove to be no better than their predecessors.

49

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 29/11/2008 23:52:01
Icebreaker (43) - which budget do you mean? The 2003 one, the 2004 one, the 2005 one, the 2007 one or the 2008 one?

If it is the 2008 one (£512m), then I doubt it will stay on budget for long! The utilities diversions were due to be completed this month and are not.

I read a Council Tram Sub-Committee report recently on the scheduling of the works which included the recommendation to close Princes Street entirely for 7 months to carry out the diversions. The alternative partial closure, which is what has now been decided, was anticipated to last 17 months and they have barely even started.

The result of this alone must mean that the infrastructure contractors are charging up their calculators to work out how much they can claim and that is to say nothing of the continual reopening of works which were supposed to have been finished. I dread to think what the cost/time overrun will be.

Euan (46) - have you noticed how so many of the supporters of this scheme have clearly never bothered to read any of the supporting papers? They seem to just swallow what the politicians/TIE say without a murmer. Really, you would think that when even the Department for Transport recommends that no-one believe what the promoters of such schemes say, then folk might make the effort to do a bit of homework before opening their mouths and letting their bellies rumble.

50

grey fatique,

More Scottish mediocrity 30/11/2008 00:13:13
There is a huge difference in the standards and quality of councillors, planners, transport departments masterplans, developers, architecture, design and level of detail between our European counterparts and Scotland. What we think is wonderful is actually just another pat on the back for Scottish mediocrity. Why don't we outsource some of our council and transport departments for example Germany or Switzerland even Japan so we can get higher standards and a seamless effective infrastructure which works and looks great. Clearly people in the public domain are just not good enough and we have too many. Everything we try and build ends up like a dogs dinner. No wonder frustrated Scots leave and become successful abroad. The whole transport and planning needs a complete personnel clear out and design rethink around sustainable places and transport which make us competitive and energy efficiency. Authorities have been designing an inefficient infrastructure which adds costs, time and energy to our daily lives and businesses for decades. I am not surprised about the horrific construction and financial stories.
51

Hmm ...,

30/11/2008 00:14:22
... well put, Sarah B (49)! tie seem to rely on the punters having very short memories or a basic dislexia!

And you are so right about people swallowing the propaganda that tie has basically spent a lot of money in creating and broadcasting.
52

tumshie heid,

30/11/2008 00:15:23
Most of the trams supporters are council workers or lentil munchers who don't want to believe that all they have subscribed to is just pie in the sky.
53

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 00:18:11
#49

Hi Sarah.

You're right.

Many of the 'pro-trammies' clearly have no idea at all about how this crazy project has been planned, how it is progressing or the problems which have arisen along the way, or just how much money local taxpayers are going to be liable for for YEARS to come.

They, like the clowns who voted this project through, care not one bit about the ordinary local people and businesses who have taken the brunt of the shambolic construction works on the nose - and come off very much second best.

'To HELL with them, as long as our tram LINE gets built'

The SNP must stand firm on the matter of extra funding, there really must not be ANY extra funds given to this scheme.

It needs to be scrapped NOW, before any more valuable public funds are lost forever.

54

snoopy,

Musselburgh 30/11/2008 00:53:08
I knew it! I knew last week with hardly any tram stories that a biggie was coming along!

I don't know why they don't just scrap the trams and instead use the billions of pounds they're wasting on a tramline to improve the BUS service that we currently win AWARDS for!
55

The old castle rock,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 01:13:52
I suspect that many of these pro trammies are not even from Edinburgh. They seem to have no understanding of the workings, history, logistics or otherwise of this city and are probably only pro tram because they were the ones stupid enough to buy an "exclusive development" flat at the slums of the future, sorry, I mean the Waterfront.

Why don't Lothian buses just place a metal tow bar betwen three of their 22 buses, after all they are always running together and are, with the exception of a mile or so to the airport, running on the tram route, and hey presto, an instant tram. No need for utilities diversions or tracks or half a billion pounds squandered.

God it's so easy. I could change the world if I gave a damn.
56

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/11/2008 08:47:54
#55

LOL!
57

tumshie heid,

30/11/2008 12:03:07
#55 The solution! Remember to paint them tartan as well though. That will get the developers flocking to Princes Street to build hotels.
58

rs,

. they've made of the Tram Project 30/11/2008 19:28:54
The Whole Tram Project is more a farce than a panto

The characters are leaving or left and the Main Character makes fleeting appearances.

Could be an idea for a Christmas Panto.

Any suggestions for who will play who, the UGLY sisters well I can think of 2 !!... and I', sure you can guess who they are!
59

rs,

in ma house 30/11/2008 19:29:53
55 The old castle rock

they have actually tried bendy buses.

60

Bring Back Poll Tax,

30/11/2008 21:28:26
#4 "Treat yourselves to a look at the transport system in Germany, boys!"

Which bit of it - the Autobahns?

i've seen trams all round the world - the system in Calcutta. for example, - is that what the transport consultants mean by "world class"?

It's strange how Calcutta and Delhi have both abandoned trams in favour of an underground - if we had one of those, it wouldn't have to stop running for the Festival cavalcade or any other procession along Princes st.
61

Top_Dawg,

30/11/2008 23:00:04
the great tram robbery
62

Pilrig,

Livingston 01/12/2008 05:54:19
Not a penny more
63

OnTrack,

Leith 01/12/2008 09:58:17
#12... please do take a look at the plans...

You are very mistaken... the stops on the route beyond the Gyle are at Gogarburn, Ingliston Park and Ride and the Airport terminal.

It's a little tiring to have self-professed experts pontificate... all this information is in the public domain, the EEN are correct to print Ingliston to the Airport every day.

Take a look...

http://www.tramtime.com/tramhovermap.html

The same plans are on deposit with the City Planning department... so can be confirmed...


64

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 01/12/2008 11:57:20
#63 It doesn't go to the Airport terminal building......

The plans online are several years out of date. BAA objected to the proposed location so it was moved to the current planned site, across the road from the Hilton. It is still on airport land, but only just.

The "Gogarburn" stop also stretches the definition of Gogarburn given its proposed location on the other side of the A8 from RBS.
65

miffy the bonfire slater,

11/12/2008 23:56:31
#33 You are completely incoherent as usual, but what would one expect from a facebook junkie with a made up life.

 

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