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Thursday, 10th December 2009

Traffic will return to Princes Street, hints transport chief

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Published Date: 24 June 2009
TRAFFIC looks unlikely to remain banned from Princes Street once the tram works are complete after the city's transport leader raised doubts about the pedestrianisation plan.
Campaigners have called for temporary traffic measures – in which buses and taxis are diverted along George Street – to be made permanent.

But, in his first interview since taking over as the city's transport leader, Gordon Mackenzie told the Even
ing News the temporary measures would not work on a long-term basis because of the pressure they would put on George Street.

Mr Mackenzie also hit out at those calling for the £545 million tram project to be ditched, saying that to do so now would be "calamitous" for Edinburgh and Scotland as a whole.

The Lib Dem councillor for Prestonfield, who took over from Phil Wheeler as transport leader, said measures to limit Princes Street to trams were likely to be opposed by both traders on George Street and the bus companies.

The council has commissioned a feasibility study looking into pedestrianisation after diversions brought in for the tram works in Princes Street proved a success.

But Mr Mackenzie said: "There is concern from traders in George Street that we could have the complete pedestrianisation of Princes Street and all the buses go through George Street. The bus operators would also have problems with that.

"There are also environmental reasons about whether or not it's a good idea to have a large volume of traffic going down George Street over a longer period. I like the idea of less traffic on Princes Street and there's more we could do to make it pedestrian and cycle-friendly.

"It's got a stunning outlook and we really want to do as much as we can to take advantage of that."

He said the feasibility study was about finding the "right balance" and may suggest measures such as limiting traffic to one lane in each direction, rather than closing the street entirely to road traffic.

Mr Mackenzie, a board member of tram firm TIE and chairman of the council's development arm EDI, had been credited with getting the council's finances in order during his time as finance leader and is now charged with fixing the tram project. He dismissed suggestions that the tramline's budget was spiralling out of control, and said there would be a huge price to pay for not seeing the scheme through.

He said: "What I find surprising is that some people still want us to stop the project. We're beyond the point where it would make any financial sense. For Edinburgh and Scotland it would be calamitous to pull out at this stage. That would create problems for the public sector going forward and contractors would look at Scotland and wonder if we are going to do this with other projects."

Last week it emerged the tram project may not be ready until May 2012, following a nine-month delay on crucial work at the Gogar tram depot.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 24 June 2009 9:59 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 24/06/2009 12:00:36
Great news,there is always room for everyone.
2

Concerned of Leith,

24/06/2009 12:14:20
"may suggest measures such as limiting traffic to one lane in each direction"

Hasn't this man looked at the design plans? This is what is going to be left along the tram line - by the time that the double tram lines are added to the centre of the street, there ONLY WILL BE A SINGLE LANE IN EACH DIRECTION!!!!
3

Mince Pie Supper,

24/06/2009 12:18:36
Scrapping would be calamitous later!

What about now.
4

Watch Us Wreck The Mic, Psyche.,

East-West Flyover Proposal HQ 24/06/2009 12:23:59
You drive West along London Road, it's all good, then BOOM you hit Leith Walk and the traffic is a nightmare. You drive East along the Western Approach road, it's all good, then BAM, you hit Lothian Road and the traffic is a nightmare. You drive along the Western Approach road, pass the Sheraton, you're facing the Picture House, the road scoops up, goes over Castle Terrace, over Princes Street Gardens - 2 fast lanes - great views - curves round Calton Hill then down onto London Road. SHAZAM That's what we need.
5

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 12:25:46
The business case for the vanity tram line is so bad that even if they waste hundreds of millions more to complete construction, the ongoing, permanent operating losses it will make mean it still makes sense to scrap it and never run them.
6

Mcewans 80/-,

24/06/2009 12:31:01
Another tram story!
yeah yeah!
7

Old Cartha Boy,

24/06/2009 12:38:43
He said: "What I find surprising is that some people still want us to stop the project. We're beyond the point where it would make any financial sense. For Edinburgh and Scotland it would be calamitous to pull out at this stage. That would create problems for the public sector going forward and contractors would look at Scotland and wonder if we are going to do this with other projects."

A long way of saying we shoul dbe paying out more good money after bad! Is he Cllr Wheeler re-incarnate?
8

hibbydoug,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 12:40:15
as i said a while ago £50 million a mile the trams cost , we could have reinstated all the rail lines round Edinburgh for that amount .
9

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 24/06/2009 12:41:07
#5 have you ever considered that the reason traffic is a nightmare in the city centre is because of people like YOU who drive everywhere instead of walking/cycling/taking the bus ?
Nope, thought not.
10

Mallory,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 12:43:40
> We're beyond the point where it would make any
> financial sense

There never was any 'financial sense' to this project, at least for vast mass of residents and visitor to Edinburgh. If the Forth Ports and developers wanted to gentrify the dock area they could have made the investments themselves.

£545m+ is too much to let all these Scottish Office slaves have a tram-ride to work.
11

,

24/06/2009 12:44:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 24/06/2009 12:45:12
#9 did you know that the M74 extension in Glasgow cost well over £138 million per mile. And the A68 bypass (A SINGLE CARRIAGEWAY) cost over £13 million per mile ?
Check the Scottish Govenment website if you don't believe me.
13

Jams,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 12:45:16
"I like the idea of less traffic on Princes Street and there's more we could do to make it pedestrian and cycle-friendly".

You mean like the current plans to narrow the pavement on the shoppping side to cope with the trams?

Have the council addressed the problem of large numbers of people queueing for and exiting from trams in the middle of the road yet?
14

Trams shams,

24/06/2009 12:45:54
"Mr Mackenzie also hit out at those calling for the £545 million tram project to be ditched, saying that to do so now would be "calamitous" for Edinburgh and Scotland"
What a load of pi5h! What has this got to do with Scotland when it only serves a very very small minority of Edinburgh's people. If he is thinking along the lines of tourist coming specifically to see this monumental white elephant, then he is obviously on a different planet or has been sucked into a different dimention where he believes his opinion counts for something...
15

Watch Us Wreck The Mic, Psyche.,

24/06/2009 12:47:57
Raga - it was a bit of black comedy for you there.

I use the train daily and am a strong supporter of improving the rail network in and around Edinburgh. The tram money should go towards railway lines (all benefits previously highlighted) as opposed to ridiculous plans like trams, fly-overs etc.
16

,

24/06/2009 12:48:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Incandescent,

24/06/2009 12:50:13
#10 Road Raga

Wheesht!
18

Trams shams,

24/06/2009 12:50:44
Road Raga... So? These public financed schemes serve a massive amount of people compared to the tiny single lined Tram scheme built to puff up egos
19

Mince Pie Supper,

24/06/2009 12:52:42
"He dismissed suggestions that the tramline's budget was spiralling out of control, and said there would be a huge price to pay for not seeing the scheme through."

Yes, he means HE would get a row.
20

Mince Pie Supper,

24/06/2009 12:53:59
Naughty Councillors.
21

Incandescent,

24/06/2009 12:57:13
#20

He "said there would be a huge price to pay for not seeing the scheme through".

Yes. In TIE executives' bonuses and council seats.
22

Randan,

24/06/2009 12:58:37
#5 A dual carriageway through Princes Street Gardens to save car drivers a few minutes? Might that not spoil a beautiful city a touch?

That was what they planned in the 60s mate, along with all the high rise blocks. Edinburgh would end up looking a complete state if they'd done it, but you and your selfish petrolheaded idiot friends have never gone away.
23

Telly,

24/06/2009 12:59:12
Ditch the whole stupid project - reinstate the rail network.
24

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 24/06/2009 12:59:13
yeah yeah #19 there will only be 2 tram passengers per day.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, change the record.
25

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 12:59:51
i think this is tramendous news
26

Incandescent,

24/06/2009 13:00:46
#27 Shhh!
27

Nai,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 13:01:31
Pedestrianise George Street - that's the answer.
28

Trams shams,

24/06/2009 13:01:34
Roaad Raga... Already have. Zzzzzzzzzz
29

Mince Pie Supper,

24/06/2009 13:20:30
Traffic will return to princes street in 3 years then?
30

,

24/06/2009 13:23:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

Telly,

24/06/2009 13:37:03
Princes Street was hardly choking to death with buses and taxis in the first place. Mind you, that was before there were tram rails that people can't drive / walk / cycle over.
32

Mince Pie Supper,

24/06/2009 13:42:49
3 years until the next Granny casualty.
33

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 13:50:02
"TRAFFIC looks unlikely to remain banned from Princes Street once the tram works are complete..."

Oh so we've got another 5 years to wait then.

#34:

"Mind you, that was before there were tram rails that people can't drive / walk / cycle over."

You can cycle on tram lines! In fact, it's quite a funny spectacle to watch, as the rider and machine hurtle down the road, unable to steer out! It's even funnier if the tram happens to be coming in the other direction at the time!
34

,

24/06/2009 13:52:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Yonthing!,

24/06/2009 14:00:42
Traffic will return.

Until the trams start to operate.

Then when the buses and taxis and cyclists get in the way of the Tram, they'll soon be banned.

If you want a good example, google for "metros greatest hits" - an example of what happens when trams and vehicles mix.
36

,

24/06/2009 14:08:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
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37

,

24/06/2009 14:11:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
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38

,

24/06/2009 14:45:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
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39

Statsman,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 15:09:29
I suppose we are all meant to be grateful that the CEC aren't doing something else idiotic in the name of trams? No one wanted to close Princes Street in the first place just like no one wanted trams. CEC are completely out of touch with reality and the local taxpayer.

This project has been a farce from the outset.
40

Mince Pie Supper,

24/06/2009 15:28:18
This whole fiasco was stolen from an unrecorded episode of Frasier.
41

Foo,

24/06/2009 21:54:32
Anyone walked along Princes street recently? Have a listen if you do. Without the traffic, it's great.
42

Julian.,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 22:35:03
Statsman,

And where exactly did you get your stats that nobody wanted trams?

Or are Foo, GT, Charles, Duncan and Graham all just fictional characters?
43

Euan,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 22:47:57
So, Gordon Mackenzie says that if the tram project was scrapped it would be "calamitous for Edinburgh and Scotland as a whole''.

Good grief Gordon, can you not see that the continuation of this insane project WILL be 'calamitous' for Edinburgh and Scotland as a whole!

Should it ever reach an operational state (which I sincerely hope it doesn't), the tram LINE will suck so much money out of the public purse that many other projects and services (like Lothian Buses for example), will be starved of much needed cash and investment.

This comment made by Mr Mackenzie is YET ANOTHER blinkered, ignorant and absolutely disrespectful statement made by yet another person who seems to be more than willing to lead this city into even further misery and debt by supporting this white elephant.

The tram project should be halted NOW.



44

Julian.,

edinburgh 24/06/2009 22:55:18
Hey Euan,

I thought we'd lost you today. The discussion just didn't have the same vibe without you and GT.

I presume you know what the operating costs and projected revenues from the trams will be to say it's going to make a massive loss. Although I've got my doubts after that statement you made about fares going to be £4 a journey.

The one thing that puzzles me is that if you are correct that it is going to make a massive loss, that contradicts your statement about Lothian Buses not being allowed any public subsidy under the rules. How can the new company incorporating trams and buses run without public subsidy if it's going to make a massive loss?

There's no way Lothian Buses can subsiside the trams if what you say is correct.
45

Statsman,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 22:59:54
45 Julian

Correct.

Fictional creations of Mario, folk that live outwith Edinburgh, people that work for the Council's PR department and TIE employees don't count. :)
46

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 24/06/2009 23:45:26
Julian (47) - I shall try to answer your point, if I may, in case Euan does not come back to this thread.

I think Euan probably got his figures from the same place as I: the tram final business case, Appendix III (Revenue and Risk), which details what the effects of delay in assumed property developments and/or general economic downturn would have on TEL revenues. This report was prepared by independent consultants on behalf of TIE/CEC, although my own inquiries would indicate that very few people in TIE/CEC have read it or wish to acknowledge its existence!

You asked: "How can the new company incorporating trams and buses run without public subsidy if it's going to make a massive loss?", and that is a question I have asked repeatedly but the silence has been deafening.

My understanding is that the TEL would have four options to deal with the loss: increase fares; reduce services; reduce frequencies; reduce attractiveness of product (eg, not renew vehicles so often). How can any of these options be good for public transport?

I think someone pointed out yesterday that the Council cannot simply hand out subsidies to Lothian Buses and I believe that is correct. Bus companies would be invited to tender for routes and the Council would probably choose the cheapest. That would very likely lead to more bus operators in the city (who would not be part of TEL and, therefore, be free to compete with both Lothian Buses and the tram).

Such was the desire to snatch the initial £375m government grant that no thought was given to what would happen if the economic situation changed. The indications are that the experts at TIE/CEC and our politicians so miscalculated the economic position and business case assumptions that the price may well be, at best, a less attractive public transport system in general and, at worst, Lothian Buses itself.
47

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 24/06/2009 23:47:00
#38
You are so right. As we all know road vehicles never, ever, ever crash into one another. We only get crashes when there are trams.............................
48

Julian.,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:51:01
Statsman,

Very good...and me?
49

Julian.,

edinburgh 25/06/2009 00:59:02
Sarah B,

Thanks for that. So what are the projected revenues and costs in the initial years given the current downturn?

If it is running at a loss, are you really saying there are no mechanisms in place to support it financially?

Of course the downturn is only a temporary event and, assuming the trams were originally predicted to make a profit, surely in the medium to long term they will start to make money as the economy recovers.
50

Andrew Kent,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 01:07:34
The trams are already "calamitous" for Edinburgh.
51

Statsman,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 02:36:58
51 Julian

Perhaps you are just insane? :)

52 Julian

The first back up position is to slash as many bus services as possible to force people onto trams for part of their journeys. This could mean all journeys along Leith Walk and Princes Street by tram fed by part route buses at either end. It's a completely stupid plan but makes the passenger numbers look good.

The second back up position is to sell the line and rolling stock to Stagecoach for a quid as happened in Sheffield.

FYI the first option would mean three journeys or a 3x£1.20 or £3.60 fare instead of one £1.20 fare. That's quite close to Euan's estimate - especially when adjusted for inflation.
52

Poisson,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 02:39:46
With completion date delayed until May 2012 at the earliest, the project is probably around £200m over budget already. The economic environment after the general election in 2010 will be dire with 10% departmental budget cuts across the board except for Health and Education. The tram project will hit a funding crisis at this time which it may not survive.

53

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 25/06/2009 03:24:46
with all these costing figures and projected profit and loss forecasts can somebody tell me what profit is made each year by the A1, or the M90 or any other road for that matter?
54

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 25/06/2009 07:16:07
Julian (52) - I can't remember the revenues and costs offhand but I do remember that the losses started at £10m per year (for delay in development only) and rose to over £25m per year (for delay + general economic downturn). The figures are all in the appendix mentioned and is on the www.tramsforedinburgh.co.uk.

I'm afraid I am saying that there appear to be no mechanisms in place to support it. The assumption was that the assumed developments (generating a significant proportion of anticipated tram passenger numbers) would be largely in place when the tram starts to run and that the economy would stay strong. In that happy event, TEL was predicted to sustain losses for the first couple of years and then things would pan out.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to get any response as to what the mechanism is to help TEL over a much longer period of loss and councillors seem determined to merge Lothian Buses, TIE and the trams regardless, thereby placing Lothian Buses in an extremely difficult financial position.

There may come a day when our public transport breaks even, but it is how, if at all, Lothian Buses would be able to weather the storm in the interim that is the concern.
55

Old Cartha Boy,

25/06/2009 09:48:36
Sadly, Sarah B paints a realistic picture of what is to come. There is zero scope for CEC acquiring additional funds and I would expect the SNP Government to rightly say that no more money is available. I'd actually like to think that politicians and those in Transport Scotland who are bankrolling TIE have already considered the position now, rather than wait until all £500m has been spent and still only a fraction of the line has been laid. If May 2012 is forecast now, what will it be in 18 months time? All those from Jenny Dawe down who have been punting the TIE line of "on time, under budget" should be surcharged when this disaster is finally exposed.
56

Jambo-ree,

25/06/2009 11:23:38
"Princes Street's got a stunning outlook and we really want to do as much as we can to take advantage of that."

Won't be quite as stunning with overhead wires and their supports in place, that's for sure. With only one tram stop in Princes Street how do they expect the elderly and infirm to access it if they cut the buses?

By limiting traffic to one lane in each direction then everyone will travel at the speed of the slowest bus. Yep, that sure makes sense.

Shambles of a plan and shambles of a city at the moment.
57

Old Cartha Boy,

25/06/2009 11:30:05
Willie G is back - unbelievable!

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2009/06/24102122

 

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