Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Wednesday, 9th December 2009

Tram bosses ban cash under credit cards-only plan

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 30 October 2009
PASSENGERS will be able to buy tickets for Edinburgh's trams with the swipe of a credit card.
Tram bosses plan to install card-reading sensors at all stops along the 11-mile route which will see the price of a ticket deducted directly from passengers' bank accounts. There are also plans for pay-as-you-go top-up cards.

However, the new tech
nology will mean passengers will be banned from using cash on board the tram itself, and instead have to buy a ticket from one of the machines placed at each stop.

• Will you be using your credit card to pay for journeys on the tram?

Tram chiefs hope to utilise new technology being pioneered by credit card firms which allows customers to pay for transactions simply by moving their card past a reader, with no need to enter a pin number. The equipment is set to be introduced on London's buses ahead of the 2012 Olympics.

Alastair Richards, director of TIE, said it was important to remain up to date with technology.

He said: "Transport for London is hoping to introduce this on their bus fleet in 2011, rolling it out across the entire network for the Olympics in 2012. We can almost ride on the back of that. If we did not go for it we would be left with a ticketing system which was not so much obsolete, but not ready for the future."

He said he hoped the system would be in place for when the trams begin operating in 2012, meaning cash payments would not be accepted on board.

He said: "That would be my preference and I think we can encourage that by inspectors not accepting cash payments on the tram. You would be asked to get off and pay at the platform. We're looking at that from day one – it's more difficult once you start to accept cash from the start to then back away from that.

"There's an opportunity there, but we have not taken the decision yet."

But deputy council leader Steve Cardownie said the ban on using cash on board the trams would be a "recipe for confusion".

He said: "There will be a lot of people getting on the tram at the airport for whom English will not be their first language. Telling them to get off the tram would not be a particularly great welcome to Edinburgh."

It is likely that similar technology will be introduced by Lothian Buses, but chiefs say there are currently no plans to stop accepting cash on board due to the level of investment needed to put on-street ticket vending machines at its 3,500 stops.

Councillor Gordon Mackenzie, the city's transport convener, said: "Our wish is to ensure that ticketing arrangements are as customer-friendly as possible. If we could have more payment options, as part of an integrated bus and tram ticket, I'm sure many passengers would welcome such a development."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 October 2009 11:51 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

JulesF,

Kirkliston 30/10/2009 11:50:53
Hands up everyone in Scotland that actually has a bank card you can wave and pay with ?

Anyone ?

No?

Brilliant TIE !
2

Skip McClendon,

30/10/2009 11:52:31
Oh dear....how is Gorgie Tony going to get on the tram? As he told us all the other day, he is not a "debit or credit card using parasite" and operates on a cash only basis!
3

Local Whiner,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 11:53:52
With the number of tourists in this town this is probably the worst idea ever... Think of all the delays as the tram driver tries, and fails, at every single stop, to explain to someone who doesn't understand any English that they have to get off the tram to buy a ticket from a machine. A machine that looks identical to the parking ticket machine next to it.
4

TankEngine,

Uphall 30/10/2009 12:02:36
I have one of these Debit cards and use it all the time in Cafe Nero! The point is they will be vandalised and out of action all the time! Just gives the little darlings something other than bus stop windows to break!
5

black custard,

30/10/2009 12:02:51
Bit of a non-surprise this one. They'd be daft to use anything other than a cashless system.

And by the time trams arrive in 2019 cash money will be extinct anyway.
6

AbandonAllHope,

30/10/2009 12:07:38
By the time 2019 comes round we'll be using the tram for firewood
7

Skip McClendon,

30/10/2009 12:13:30
Actually, similar systems are used in other countries around the world. In Germany, you buy tickets before you get on public transport with tickets that can be used on any bus/tram/train etc. London has a similar system, and also has the Oyster card that is just waved in front of a sensor. In Holland, you can buy tickets in advance for boarding the front of a tram, or pay in cash at the back. It's not a bad idea to introduce such a system, assuming you trust TIE to design, implement and run it effectively...hmmmm, think I might just have found a wee problem!
8

AbandonAllHope,

30/10/2009 12:14:32
#7 Thats euroland for you
9

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 30/10/2009 12:17:58
Alistair Richards says it is important to keep up with technology,Alistair is it not better getting the trams on the rails first.
10

Mince Pie Supper,

30/10/2009 12:20:24
Horray, stolen cards will pay for Tram tickets.
11

Foo,

30/10/2009 12:21:40
#1

The same could have been said of chip and pin technology 6 years ago.
12

ColinBM,

30/10/2009 12:24:53
How about accepting card payments on board too (or instead)? Seems that would solve most of the problem. No one would be told to get off (unless they actually couldn't pay) and if it was instead, the cost should be considerably less.
13

Foo,

30/10/2009 12:25:40
#10

Yes, as well as anything you like off the interwebs.
14

Bring Back Poll Tax,

30/10/2009 12:25:48
Alastair Richards, director of TIE, said it was important to remain up to date with technology.

"There's an opportunity there, but we have not taken the decision yet."

And there's us thinking that TIE had planned all aspects of operation already.

Still, no doubt bonuses will be paid for "making it up as we go along".
15

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 12:29:13
"...along the 11-mile route..."

So, by the time this insane toy train set is finished, I reckon it will come in at £100,000,000 per mile, approximately.
16

the plum,

30/10/2009 12:31:05
how about you buy a ticket like you do on the buses?

other cities around the world you can buy a ticket on the trams - australia for example- ... what happens if you are running late becuase say for example you are running late due to council road improvements (emphasis on ar5e) and you have to just jump on? who polices this? if there is someone on board dishing out fines for not having tickets...could they not also dish out tickets?

i think the best cost effective thing all around is not to have these trams at all and improve the already award winning first class lothian bus system.
17

black custard,

30/10/2009 12:32:57
The system they do introduce will no doubt be a bit rubbish. London's miles ahead with the Lobster card.

Edinburgh's system will be more of a bivalve mollusc type of thing.
18

Mince Pie Supper,

30/10/2009 12:32:57
How about we don't worry about this cos we still have a very long wait...
19

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 30/10/2009 12:33:37
As someone else says, this works in London and many other countries. Hopefully you will be able to buy tickets in shops too so that passengers won't be forced to use a card. However there is nothing more irritating than standing beside some ridiculous woman at a bus stop who complains that the bus is late only to then start raking about in her handbag for her purse only when it arrives. It will cut journey times and is better for driver safety the majority of people who regularly use public transport have train and bus passes anyway. This is no different.
20

Utar Refson,

30/10/2009 12:36:00
A sensible approach. Scrabbling about for cash has always been an annoyance when I've had to use the bus. I am more likely to have a debit- or credit card to hand than the shrapnel required to ride on public transport.
21

the plum,

30/10/2009 12:36:45
actually i am not sure i would trust tie not to over charge me with my credit/debit card...they are not very responsible with money, and nor can they be trusted.

TIE IS CORRUPT AND INCOMPETENT
22

black custard,

30/10/2009 12:38:27
Why aren't we allowed to comment on the story about the escaped lion running around Warriston crematorium?
23

,

30/10/2009 12:38:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
24

Foo,

30/10/2009 12:39:48
#21

They are corrupt? Care to share your proof?
25

the plum,

30/10/2009 12:40:23
i walk past the mock of the tram every morning and evening...it does not seem to be very popular or generate any interest. i think most people who are excited about this tram are the corrupt tie folk who are going to make a lot of money while we the public have to pay for there incompetence...and no doubt the lothian buses will be suffer too...and be sold off...and it was reported that the schools are being closed...and taxes will rise...funny how there seems to be money for these trams.
26

Foo,

30/10/2009 12:40:28
#22

lol, nice try, you wont catch me twice with that old one.
27

the plum,

30/10/2009 12:41:08
wake up edinburgh...wakey wakey...
28

black custard,

30/10/2009 12:41:13
Apparently you can only pay for flights to or from The Rhona with jam jars, juice bottles, used paperback books, and Jar Jar Binks Star Wars figurines
29

SylvieMcG,

30/10/2009 12:41:42
Wonderful! So any lovely little pickpocketing ned can have an easy escape on the tram - no need to even try to find a pin number! Fantastic news from a safety and security point of view! Not!
30

black custard,

30/10/2009 12:45:14
#29

So it's only the working class that are thieves then?

Ya snobby bint
31

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 12:45:27
#29:

If I was a nasty little pick-pocketing ned, the very LAST option I would choose as a means of escape would be a tram.

Far better to jump on a waiting moped or simply leg it.
32

the plum,

30/10/2009 12:48:41
why can't we read an article where after an independent inquiry the corrupt tie officials are taken to court?
33

Foo,

30/10/2009 12:49:39
#32

Proof

or

it never happened
34

Foo,

30/10/2009 12:50:04
#31

Or a waiting Kia?
35

abner doubleday,

The Trams 30/10/2009 12:50:08

#31 pickpocketing now they will have to wait at least three years for a tram

more than enough time for the polis to catch up with them - even returning from their junkets...
36

The Ayrshire Bard,

30/10/2009 12:52:14
#10 mince pie supper. You're right about stolen cards being used as there will be no need for pin numbers. However, if each machine has its own cctv camera there would be nice wee photo of the card thief.
37

black custard,

30/10/2009 12:52:55
#31

In 2019 or whenever they delivers the trams, filthy working class scum like me will be escaping from the incident scene on jetpacks that run off hydrogen in a Burberry pattern hydrogen tank WHOOSHHHHHH up intae the sky with wur shoaplifted dvds and that it'll be like the start of Trainspotting but it will be an aerial chase with the John Menzies security guard in hot pursuit in a one man helicopter and the cops will barrage laser fire and I willl fall out of the sky, crashing through the roof of Cosra Coffee at The Rhona, causing mucho disturbance and breaking six cups and the big toe of a barista.
38

Red Ken,

South East Asia 30/10/2009 12:53:42
A foreign tourist comes to Edinburgh he get out his card to pay for a £3 trip on the tram. Oh what a lovely trams he thinks to himself and the smell of stale urine, fast foods and smelly people and ripped seats gives the trams a rustic feel to it. He goes home and get his bank statement, he opens it has a heart attack and drops dead. His wife rushes in and she reads the statements as well and drops dead. Why did they died? They died because their £3 trams trip cost them £3 plus £5 (bank charge) and got ripped off by the bank's exchange rate.

The City Fatheers need to look again and install cash payments machines as well.
39

,

30/10/2009 12:57:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Mince Pie Supper,

30/10/2009 12:59:11
Foo is a Tram Driver.
41

Hmm ...,

30/10/2009 13:01:20
... last time I used it, London's tube cost £4.50 for a single stop fare - which is probably why they needed the Oyster card - people simply wouldn't have enough change!

So who can guess how much Edinburgh's flat rate "integrated" tram and bus fare will be? £5.00? More?
42

,

30/10/2009 13:02:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
43

thehitmaster,

30/10/2009 13:02:08
What a sensible approach, however an option to buy a card in somewhere like the Aiport or City retailers which is valid on the tram and the buses in Edinburgh would be an even better idea. Cause confusion not buying on board? How Mr Cardownie, when the council can print all it's leaflets in 101 different languages to suit the residents then surely a sign or two at the airport in different languages saying buy your tickets here!
44

Kirsty Boyd-Williamson,

New Town 30/10/2009 13:03:09
No.21 : the plum ~ TIE IS CORRUPT AND INCOMPETENT

You have evidence to support the corruption element of your allegation?

On your other point you may care to note that TIE will play no part in the day to day operation of the tram service. You may therefore rest assured that TIE will not over-charge you.
45

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 13:04:06
Given they still are millions of pounds short of what they need to finish this farce, would they not be better concentrating on this first of all, rather than pointless debates years away from (possible) service about how passengers might pay for a ticket?

Of course if TIE was really interested in up to date technology we would have spent money on hybrid or hydrogen powered buses rather than reinstalling an inflexible, ridiculously expensive 19th century form of "technology".
46

Scrapthetramline,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 13:04:34
#31 Foo. #32 probably has no real evidence of formal corruption but taking wages (and exhorbitant bonuses) for a job that they are clearly collectively failing at (as you have agreed in the past) may be moral corruption.

The people who planned and agreed to this folly are, in my view, corrupt but it would require a full police investigation (which I for one would welcome) to see where the brown envelopes came from and went to. That can be the only motivation for agreeing to a 22 bus on rails. If it had gone in any other direction other that simply to serve the Waterfront I would possibly have been in favour of it. Talking of the Waterfront that would be a good place to start investigating. Bet they don't though !
47

Mince Pie Supper,

30/10/2009 13:05:18
42 George Toni

"There are some idiots on here that shouldn't be allowed a keyboard."

Quite right, please hand yours back into the lost property office.

Thank you.
48

Mince Pie Supper,

30/10/2009 13:06:17
48

And your guitar too please.
49

Hmm ...,

30/10/2009 13:07:54
... just occurred to me that buying a tram ticket at a stop before the tram actually appears is a remarkable show of confidence that, somewhere along the line, it will not be stuck behind an obstacle that it can't get around as a bus would!

So people in a hurry (say to work) will find taking a taxi even more expensive!
50

calum,

30/10/2009 13:12:09
#42 - What's a "topo" deck? Is there a late design change that's going to replace your imaginary top deck?
51

Rugal,

30/10/2009 13:13:08
2012? Jesus loves an optimist.
52

Foo,

30/10/2009 13:20:16
#50

What?!

Come on, is that the best you can come up with? Trams work perfectly well in every other city they are present.

53

Rugal,

30/10/2009 13:20:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYEcZh2QtwA

Well if its anything like this I'll be first in the queue.
54

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

30/10/2009 13:27:00
By the time it actually gets built, we'll be paying in Federation Credits.
55

Mèths,

30/10/2009 13:29:38
"Alastair Richards, director of TIE, said it was important to remain up to date with technology."

Following this, TIE hope to introduce "quite soon" a video (Betamax only) of the progress to date. TIE also hope to release a new video game called "Traminator".

This will be available initially for the Sinclair Spectrum with a follow-up game planned for the VIC 24.
56

,

30/10/2009 13:31:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

Foo,

30/10/2009 13:33:56
#57

I'm beginning to understand that the 'Christian' part of your name is perhaps more of an aspiration than a belief system you adhere to.
58

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 13:42:18
57

Its a cheap nasty article.

Most systems here in Mainland europe involve pre buying tickets at the stop before you get on. Its hardly rocket science or a major problem. Its also pretty likely that you can use cash in these machines, HOWEVER it would seem pretty un user friendly if they do not give people the chance to buy a simple one way ticket from the driver.

However, there are people in edinburgh who are afraid of electricity and dont trust electric showers so it may take time for them to get used to stuff.

This is important:-

THERE IS NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT THE TRAMS TODAY SO ITS MAKE THE PUNTER ANNOYED ARTICLE DAY.
59

Loony Toons,

Corstorphine 30/10/2009 13:48:09
Great TIE

You might at last win me over
No - screaming kids
No - urine smelling down and outs
No - vomit stained drunks (hopefully)

Cheers TIE you are great
60

Ron S,

Stockbridge 30/10/2009 13:51:04
I wonder if anyone actually understands this article, including TIE and Chris Marshall who wrote it. #12 and #24 are right to study the wording.

As I understand it, the sensible way to pay is by some sort of card, be it Oyster ie top-up card or these proximity debit cards being developed at the moment. The point is that the passenger quickly swipes it on the tram/bus, not at the stop.

For people with cash you simply put a cash ticket machine at the stop. Since there are so few stops this would not be such of a problem with the tram.

Putting card readers at every stop would be pointless.

Why then does the article start with the statement: "Tram bosses plan to install card-reading sensors at all stops along the 11-mile route.."

61

black custard,

30/10/2009 13:51:51
At the end of the day if they don't look before they leap they will have a bird in the hand and a hand in the birds bush.

It's not rocket science.
62

,

30/10/2009 13:54:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
63

Farky,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 13:56:09
Many transport systems in mainland Europe have sashless systems in place. It works well over there so there is no reason it can't work here. If people can use their debit cards to buy a round of drinks in a pub, they can, I'm sure, use a card to buy a ticket!
64

Farky,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 13:56:46
I did of course mean "cashless"
65

,

30/10/2009 13:58:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

Mince Pie Supper,

30/10/2009 14:00:16
55 - A Friend of Fernando Poo

The Star Trek Universe is far more likely to come true than the Edinburgh Tram Universe.

And Trekkies are way less geeky than Trammies.
67

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:01:22
60 - yes none of these things as they will be empty.

PS you dont need to worry they dont go anywhere near Costorphine, but great if you are going from Leith to Broomhoose.

68

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:01:37
do sashless glaswegians boil there goats?
69

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

30/10/2009 14:17:10
#67: It already has come true. This isn't real - we're all on the Holodeck.
70

SylvieMcG,

30/10/2009 14:18:48
# 30 - I've yet to see a ned that works!

Neds = non-educated delinquents, usually not working, but dole scrougners.

Working class = honest people like myself who try to make a living as good as they can

Try thinking before you write, it may help.
71

Mince Pie Supper,

30/10/2009 14:20:00
70

Computer. End Program.
72

Realist,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:20:36
#42

Think again about using your concession pass, the current legislation for concessionary travel only applies to bus services in Scotland. Why not go an try an use your pass on the Glasgow subway - you can not unless you live in the old SPT authorities.
TIE have yet to convince the government that the trams should allow free concessionary travel as that would mean they would have to be valid on the Glasgow subway and the budget for free travel is already overstretched to the point where by bus operators risk not being paid for all the free travel

Everyone else look on the bright side at least you won't have to run the risk of sitting (sorry standing there are virtually no seats) next to Gorgie Tony if these trams are ever finished!
73

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:23:47
Why are the sash wearing goats trying to get to Glasgow on the tram? It's only going as far as the airport! Are they going to walk the rest of the way or are they going to be part of the new airport feeding arrangements? We need to be told!!
74

DogHouse,

30/10/2009 14:24:38
#73
As a worker in the disability secotor I have been guaranteed that holders of a concessionarty card will be given free travel on Edinburghs trams.

As for the credit card only payments, what a crock of sh*t.
It seems that this whole trams project was dreamed up by effete tw@ts with no sense at all. What about the people who have no credit cards? what about the elderly? as I assume that TIE have taken into account the current trend for cloning credit cards?

Srap the trams now, its a huge joke played on us, the folk of Edinburgh!
75

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:27:30
So as far as I understand it I have to grow a goatee to use my free transport pass on the trams if I'M STILL HERE WHEN THEY START..
76

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:30:22
Will female pass holders have to grow a goatee and wear a sash?
77

Realist,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:31:17
#73

I presume that guarantee came from TIE, if so its like every other promise they make a lie, they have no ability to make such a statement unless the concessionary travel legislation is amended by the parliament - who have to fund the consequences of the change, and as we all know have no money.

What do you think the consequence is?
78

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:31:36
Or will it have to be the sash my father wore?
79

roadstohell,

30/10/2009 14:32:51
I was reading an article last night, can't remember which paper. BUT, it reported that Leeds has opted for Trolleybuses, rather than Trams. They intend to have 30 routes running , at a projected cost of £250 Million. Mhhh perhaps we should ask Leeds Council to adopt Edinburgh.
80

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:34:15
So when a concession pass holder is on the tram it will be led by a flute band. This could cause severe traffic hold ups, especial in the rush hour..
81

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:37:04
45 - TIE is Corrupt and Incompetent !

Why don't you prove they are not !

I'll just cite on the incompetent front --- eyewateringly over budget and grossly behind time ... = incompetent ...

and corrupt --- propaganda to school kids - the sickening and corrupt practice TIE have of using tax payers money to 'sell' their concept to kids in school through the use of 'goodie bags' and completely one sided pro tram trash !


I concur with Plum - and can prove the TIE are indeed Incompetent and Corrupt and furthermore that the whole project is rotten to the core. It smacks of labour squandering, greed, noses in the trough, jobs for the boys, brown envelopes, brown nosing Europe and a total lack of respect for the people of Edinburgh.

There has never been a properly independent cost/benefit analysis and a project which is costing Edinburgh this amount of money and this amount of chaos should have been subject to a local referendum. (Which I hope we still get - so there is a chance we can stop this greed driven madness).

82

Whiskey,

30/10/2009 14:46:23
Gorgie Tony:
Why don't you try a physical impossibility.
83

Eliz,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 14:46:38
#21 I'm with you. TIE will find a way to take an extra "tax" off every debit card long before it's in the hands of the operators. I wouldn't trust one of them with a playing card, never mind a debit card.
84

Jambos49,

Castle 30/10/2009 14:51:35
Consdering that there is a recession would it not be prudent to have clippies on the trams and create ticket sellers on each tram? If the trains have collectors why not the trams?

Oh and by the way TIE are incompetent and Alistair Richards is a chancer really making it up has he goes along! How did Richards get the job?
85

animmo,

30/10/2009 14:53:11
Very clever TIE. What about those of us who don't have a bank account or credit card? We pay more for PAYG top-up cards probably yes? And subsidise the whole thing in the first place
86

Foo,

30/10/2009 14:57:12
#82

If you make an allegation of corruption, you had better have something to back up your words.

And as for your reasoning that TIE are corrupt because they gave goodie bags to kids, well, it just makes you sounds mad. Mad and with an axe to grind, slinging any old mud at a public project you happen to hate, and hoping the mud sticks.

I'd advise you to stop now, it's getting embarrassing.
87

jtdx,

30/10/2009 14:59:46
I think its a great idea to move Edinburgh transport into the modern age. No more waiting while someone fills the ticket machine up with 5p coins, then spends 5 minutes trying to find the last one, while eveyone else has to wait to board the vehicle!



88

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 30/10/2009 15:06:59
You 'DON'T' have to pay by card !!!! you CAN PAY CASH ! The idea is to keep the network moving the only thing that is changing is you won't be able to pay on the bus. I think it's a brilliant idea........Does no one in Edinburgh get a train ? Or do you not go on them if you can't pay cash on board either.

Granted the headline is completely mis leading as they have not banned cash but that's the typical EEN.
89

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 30/10/2009 15:07:37
Bus/Tram - Sashless/Cashless ha,ha
90

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 15:10:10
Correct me if I'm wrong.

It will cost c.£650M
It is going to be very late.
It doesnt go to the Airport.
It goes through Broomhouse to Leith.
The second line to Granton has been abandoned.
There is no stop at the West End.
There is no stop at Waverley Station
There is only one stop on Princes St.
You cannot pay cash.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
91

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 15:11:34
Ok Kerry, you say that you CAN pay cash. Will you be going from Leith to Broomhouse or vice verca?
92

tumshie heid,

30/10/2009 15:19:58
Will the sashless buses be painted orange instead of tartan?
Will there be bowler hat stands as well?
93

Kerry,

EDINBURGH 30/10/2009 15:22:24
#92 No as I live in South Queensferry and don't work in the City they are of no use to me whatsoever....I can have an opinion on them though ha,ha
94

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 15:41:52
Aye and theyre no use to 90+ % of the rest of the population either.

ha ha.
95

The Busman,

30/10/2009 15:43:25
#75

Hate to sound so negative, but the cost of running the tram might be such that the Government, following the situation for the railway and the subway, will *not* recognise concession cards on the system. That would mean that concession card holders (pensioners/disabled)will have to stay on the buses.

What will /that/ do to the bus system?
96

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

30/10/2009 16:01:33
#71: The problem is that the phrase "working class" has become overloaded in an attempt to apply it overbroadly.

I suggest a new category: "The Unworking Class".
97

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

30/10/2009 16:03:03
Hmmmm. So will people be able to take prams on the trams?
98

,

30/10/2009 16:09:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
99

Kirsty Boyd-Williamson,

New Town 30/10/2009 16:15:05
No.91 : Reincarnated ~ "Correct me if I'm wrong."
"It doesnt go to the Airport."

Glad to oblige. It does go to the airport - all the way to the terminal building as has been confirmed very many times.
100

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 16:19:17
#96

I personally can never see TIE allowing totally free travel for OAPs on the trams (if they are ever completed that is).

Every penny is going to be required to help pay for this farce. I think it's even going to be a struggle just to try and cover staff wages.

I think a fare, with a concession card, of around £1-£1.50 will be the norm with a regular fare of £3-£4 for non-card holders.

The HUGE annual subsidy this tram line is going to be required to simply get the wheels rolling is going to be mind-numbing. The funds required to run a regular, reliable tram service is going to be astronomical.

Lothian Buses are already locked in to prop things up to the tune of at least £10 million per annum, and the only way to come up with this money is to put up fares on the buses. We've already seen large rises in monthly and yearly bus passes with single fares left alone - for the time being.

With this ridiculous project expected to be completed in 2013/2014, and taking inflation into account, I stand by my £3-£4 fare prediction for between 1 and 3 stops with possibly a £5-£6 fare direct to the airport. I reckon a return could even top £10.

All in all, the construction of this tram LINE is making the future look very bleak indeed for Scotland's capital city...

101

Mèths,

30/10/2009 16:21:29
Will refreshments be served on the trams? I'd hate to think that there won't be. Eleven miles is one helluva journey to take without on-board refreshments.
102

Mèths,

30/10/2009 16:23:00
"It does go to the airport - all the way to the terminal building as has been confirmed very many times."

That's the 2nd route no? When will it be up and running?
103

Foo,

30/10/2009 16:24:35
99

Your toys, pick them up, little boy.
104

Mèths,

30/10/2009 16:30:50
All this talk about trams and refreshments is making me quite peckish. I can't wait till they're up and running.
105

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 16:36:39
Did someone say they havent got a Bank account ?

If you havent got a bank account you shoudlnt be allowed out your house, assuming you live somewhere that has a roof over it.

jesus christ. Only conspiratorial halfwits dont have bank accounts.
106

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 16:37:39
101 euan,

shut yer puss. thats about it really.

dont get me banned just because i told you to shut yer puss and because Im not nearly as miserable as you.


107

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 16:40:06
#107

Thanks so much for those kind words.

By the way, I'm not miserable at all.

I'm realistic.
108

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 30/10/2009 16:41:26
In Sheffield, Nottingham, and Birmingham, The trams have clippies on board, and it works well. In London and Manchester tickets are pre purchased, by credit card, or cash, from machines situated at every tram platform, and that works well also.

What's all this about paying the driver? The trams in Edinburgh will be accessed by no less than SIX doors along the sides of the vehicles, and the driver will be completley isolated, from the passengers.

The expression "Little Knowledge" springs to mind
109

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 16:44:14
presumably euan, we will build more tram lines once we can afford it. I wouldnt hold your breath on that one though as scotland is perpetually skint, monetarily and morally when it comes to public transport systems.

Anyway, i just think its funny. I wont be paying for it, and to be honest with you , you wont pay any more than you do already eaun.

What do you think is going to happen ? If they didnt have the tram project you would get a tax rebate ?

hahaha. Hahaha.

Theres big projects in other places around the UK, actually you should be thankful edinburgh is getting some investment.

Incase you are a bit thick, you personally will also pay for leeds trolley buses, you pay for work on the M25, you helped to pay for Croydons trams.

and please stop your stupid scaremongering about not being complete until 2014. You just made that up. Its cheap eaun, stop doing it.
110

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 16:51:27
one last thing, you are perfectly entitled of course to NOT want the trams but i wouldnt worry about it too much. Its important only to care about things you can change and laugh at the things you cant. Its not worth the stress. Im sure it doesnt really bother you that much at the end of the day though and that you are a thoroughly good chap.

Have a nice weekend eaun. Lots of love, Mario.
111

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 16:53:50
#110

You're a funny man Tam, real funny - and totally blind to the problems that this project is heaping upon Edinburgh and it's citizens.

I don't see the tram project as an 'investment' in any way - I see it as a hinderance and something which offers very, very, poor value for money.

How can a project, with final costs almost certain to top at least £700 million possibly be considered to be an 'investment' when it's only going to replace one bus route?

I think it's you who's a wee bit thick Tammy...



112

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 16:54:25
109 Keith , we can pay the driver here in Holland, you can do it in Belgium if you like also. Of course its better for everyone if you buy your ticket before you get on (it speeds up the journey as the driver doesnt have to wait whilst he hands out tickets), but its perfectly possible.

how it works is this, its quite ingenous -

You get on at the door beside the driver and hand him the money.

Its quite clever.
113

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 16:54:42
Gorgie_Tony:

I positively encourage you to travel on the "top(o) deck of the tram when (if) they eventually arrive.

You will find some nice, shiny wires at about head height that will be carrying electrical current at some hundreds of volts. Reach out and feel for yourself how well-made, smooth and shiny they are. Note that this works best on a rainy day after you've been standing at the tram stop waiting for half an hour without a brolly.
114

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 16:56:29
Im stopping now euan, thats what these thigns cost these days unfortunately.

unfortunately scotland is a banana republic , totally clueless when it comes to projects like this which might bump up the price a bit as the contractors basically rip the tash.

Like I said, enjoy your weekend.
115

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 16:58:10
And i wouldnt rely on this rag for project information. Its a little biased, a grumpy newpaper primed for a grumpy populace. You get the media you deserve i guess.
116

Kirsty Boyd-Williamson,

New Town 30/10/2009 16:58:28
No.103 : Meths ~ That's the 2nd route no?

No, the route from Gogar to the airport is currently under construction. It was reported a few days ago (either in here or The Scotsman) that a bridge which forms an integral component had been swung into place at the airport. Anyone using the airport with any fequency will be aware of the works. The tram terminus will occupy the area currently used by taxis and will therefore be very close to the terminal bulding. When might it all happen? No idea but the TIE web site might offer an indicative completion date. There was recent talk of making the airport to Gogar leg the first section to 'go live' but I don't know if this came from TIE or was merely press speculation.
117

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 30/10/2009 17:01:41
I wondered how long it would take Euan to join the fray, with his total lack of knowledge, and his biased suppositions. Euan; how come trams have been a major success all over the world and in the five cities in the UK?

With this in mind, is it not reasonable, for fair minded, unbiased, people to assume that trams will be just as successful in Edinburgh? Or is it more reasonable to assume that you and a hand full of your cronies who have little or no knowledge of such things are right, and that the rest of the world are wrong? Please think about it.
118

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 17:03:54
One thing we have over here in the Benelux is good transport systems. excellent infact. I can go just about anywhere i like via public transport.

The reason ? we pay high taxes. If you want investment , you need higher taxes in the UK.

maybe not nice, but thats the bottom line. I wouldnt trust these codgers to spend it wisely though. airses and elbows.
119

roadstohell,

30/10/2009 17:03:59
wassat yis are sayin ? Trams goan tae go thru Broomie ? Brammer, a cannae wait tae get a' the rubbish o the day oan the line, Tesco trolleys an'at, gonna be great haen Trams as weel us Trains tae vandalise, jeezo cheers CEC

"Trams fur Bams" :)
120

Big Tam fae The Pans,

30/10/2009 17:04:35
118 Well said Keith, sorry for my mean comment regarding paying the driver.
121

Mèths,

30/10/2009 17:05:33
Kirsty @117

That's great news. So it's imminent then?
Back to the subject of snacks ... IF there are to be snacks on board, will cash THEN be accepted?
122

Mèths,

30/10/2009 17:11:20
Over here the tram ride costs €1.80. The operators need more money as it's not viable. Some here say it was a vanity project - I'm not convinced one way or the other.
It's only a 4.7km stretch and cost €18m.

The company wants another bail out (loan) from the local government of €1,000,000.

Only 14 accidents so far. Funny thing is, there's a tram every 15 minutes and they're usually empty except for rush hour.
123

Mèths,

30/10/2009 17:14:02
123

Here's a real tram in aforementioned city. Pretty no?

http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/Tram_Velez-Malaga/Tram01-080313-251_b.jpg
124

Mèths,

30/10/2009 17:15:48
btw - if you think they're quiet, watch this 21 second video as the tram leaves the hospital. The local are up in arms with the racket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c63fjw05UNU
125

Think Tank,

30/10/2009 17:18:05
It's great when you get stories like this to really expose how little the anti-tram brigade actually understand about the systems and ways that trams work.

For the n-millionth time, some key points:

- When trams come into effect, Lothian Buses ceases to exist- it is replaced by Transport Edinburgh Ltd: a tram and bus company. Many people with forward vision would like it to be a tram/bus/ferry company, but let's see.

- Therefore when you buy a Transport Edinburgh Ltd ticket (single, daysaver, ridacard etc.) you are NOT buying a bus or tram ticket- you are buying both. You may purchase your dayticket on a tram but it will work on both systems. It's called integrated transport, and it has been used in over 200 cities across the world for a LONG time.

- So lesson one: any talk of "premium fares" for the trams is absolute garbage and anybody spreading such things (e.g. Euan #101) are ill-informed and are discredited.

- By the same logic, lessson two: OAP free travel (whether you agree with it or not) WILL work on the trams, because it has already been granted to Transport Edinburgh Ltd.

- There are comments above to the effect that there will be delays as the tram driver has to "stop" to explain to confused passengers they can't pay with cash- it's so quaint it's hilarious.

- Tram drivers are locked away from the passengers- I'm afraid you can't chat to them. Trams stop at their allocated place, 6 doors simultaneously open and people move in and out. It then leaves the stop. A 250 passenger turnover (i.e. one full tram on and off) can occur in less than 60 seconds. The same turnover on our current bus system would take OVER 30 MINUTES (and four buses). This is why trams are so quick.

- So lesson three: there is no stopping for confused passengers. Ticket inspectors will be walking down the trams to check people have activated their "Oyster style" card and provide help as the tram is moving.

- It works in hundreds of cities across the globe- i
126

Think Tank,

30/10/2009 17:18:34
***CONTINUED...

- It works in hundreds of cities across the globe- in fact I suspect that the majority of tourists will be MORE familiar with this system than the frankly insular anti-tram Edinburgh residents who clearly haven't seen or used a tram system anywhere in the world, hence their outrageous beliefs and prejudices!

Here endeth the lesson.
127

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 17:24:02
#118 Keith

That's funny, I was wondering how long it would take you, complete with your blinkered, ignorant ramblings, to also join the fray.

I have never once stated that trams do not work in any other cities around the globe and I welcome their use where they have enough space to work in and not conflict with how a city's other traffic operates.

But in Edinburgh's case, this will never happen.

This city's small size simply doesn't justify a tram line, let alone a network. Edinburgh's main thoroughfares are not big enough to accommodate trams AND all the other everyday traffic that require to use them.

Our city already has a perfectly good local bus service which does the people who live here very nicely.

To quote Fuel Head, Edinburgh's tram project is the biggest anti-car measure this country has ever seen. It will serve no other purpose than to be a total inconvenience to local people in how they go about their daily business.

Summed up, this tram project is the biggest waste of taxpayers money in this country's history.

ALL those involved in it and with it should hang their heads in shame.
128

black custard,

30/10/2009 17:26:04
#117

Have a glass of water.
129

black custard,

30/10/2009 17:26:41
#128

Have a bag of cans.
130

black custard,

30/10/2009 17:28:51

There was an old man from Pontefract
Who stood on a tram
the clippy said "You Are A Bam"
For the window was cracked,
But the OAP's bunnet intact
131

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 17:29:50
#130

As long as they're chilled, I'll do it.
132

black custard,

30/10/2009 17:30:09
#199

Stop going on about it you muppety ballheed
133

black custard,

30/10/2009 17:31:13
#132

No hunger strike for you, sonny
134

black custard,

30/10/2009 17:32:06
#220 No, really, just step away from the keyboard before this thread stretches to the moon.
135

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 17:33:16
#134

You sure? I think Julian would have something to say about that...
136

roadstohell,

30/10/2009 17:42:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEeX-JA2E-E

Ouch !!!!!
137

roadstohell,

30/10/2009 17:45:37
and they chap that recorded these, syas that the trams are pretty much empty most of the time
138

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 17:53:10
#137

Ouch indeed.

I wonder how the residents of York Place, St Andrew's square, Leith Walk etc, etc, etc, etc are going to find that noise late at night..

Hmmmm, let me guess??
139

MacKenzie,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 17:53:23
#126

The plan is to have tram islands in Princes Street where passengers can get on and off. The one and only stop in Princes Street, so it might be quite popular. And if you've got a tram going in each direction meeting at the one and only tram stop in Princes Street there is the potential for nearly 1000 people to be getting off and on at the same time.
I am told that tram islands were one of the major flaws in the last tram system that Edinburgh had as they were simply accidents waiting to happen.
140

regentlad,

Lothian 30/10/2009 18:00:11
By time trams are ready, ('in the year 2525' springs to mind) 'Edinbvrgh' Cooncil will be out of money - their safes and cupboards stripped bare by Bilfinger Berger, appointed or should I say annointed by Labour and Liberal councillors. So, Auchtung! how's contract progress doing....where's these tram tracks? The Docks, Hamburg, on a boat, in Croydon ??

There'll be nothing left in bank to pay the electricity bills (unbudgeted) for the power so trams will be pushed along by passengers. No cash, no fares, you do it yourself. A novel way of public transport courtesy of Jenny Daws/The Rev. Aitken.



141

Mèths,

30/10/2009 18:05:04
Think Tank

"It works in hundreds of cities across the globe"

Correct - in cities with a proper integrated transport system. Ours is a feeble effort with a tram going up & down a lousy wee track.

(and apparently there's to be no refreshments available).
142

black custard,

30/10/2009 18:07:20
Think Tank

"The tram drivers are locked away"

Should have been the tram instigators that were locked away.

But you're right - the anti-tram posters, every single one of them, has never been on a tram.

Apart from the aulder ones who mind the big tram fae the pans.
143

Mèths,

30/10/2009 18:08:36
143

I was on a tram on Wednesday. NO BUFFET CAR.
144

black custard,

30/10/2009 18:09:50
#144

The Rhona's getting Cosra Coffee so how not the trams.
145

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 18:14:13
#143

'the anti-tram posters, every single one of them, has never been on a tram'

I've used trams extensively in Munich and Amsterdam.

But with regards to Edinburgh, I'm very much anti-tram.
146

regentlad,

Lothian 30/10/2009 18:19:20
118, 128: I couldn't care less if trams work in other cities. And I wouldn't think people in other cities would be bothered about Edinburgh either unless they were paying for it. What bothers Edinburgh council taxpayers is just how much this deluded project will cost them. Anyone approached their local councillor to give that question so that we'll have some idea what we're in for? You won't get an answer as not even they have any idea. I believe we're looking at one billion for a tram line to replace the 22 bus, or as things are now going, to replace half the 22 bus route. And at end of day, even if trams ever do run what's to stop First bus or Edinburgh coachlines running a number 22 bus !

A suggestion: All those in favour of the daft project -we'll gladly sit back and let you pay for it.
147

Mèths,

30/10/2009 18:20:11
145

What's Cosra Coffee?
148

black custard,

30/10/2009 18:20:49
#146

Sorry but no Keith's spoken on this with authority.

Not a single commenter here who opposes the tram has ever been on a tram.

Why would Keith say it if it wasn't true?

I myself have never been near a tram. I thought I had but it turns out it was an escalator in Debenhams.
149

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 30/10/2009 18:21:20
Euan I'm beginning to see the light. Aren't you a "Cabhappy" "Motormouth" Who sees investment in a world class public transport system, as something that will take away your credibility in using up the worlds energy. damaging the ozone layer, with the pollution from your expensive toy? Let me tell you this trams in other parts of the world negotiate much narrower streets than can be found in Edinburgh. It,s your constant use of the word "Hindrance2 that has set me thinking
150

black custard,

30/10/2009 18:23:06
#145

"What's Cosra Coffee?" asks Meths.

Typical anti-trammer ignorance there, I think.

Cosra coffee is the UK's premier chain of coffee bars alongside

Farbucks and Caffe Neo
151

Mèths,

30/10/2009 18:24:06
151

Thanks. Will there be coffee on the trams?
152

black custard,

30/10/2009 18:25:36
#150

not just "world class" but also "iconic" and by 2014 "beleagured and abandoned"
153

black custard,

30/10/2009 18:26:45
#152

No, just on the island, where there will also be the chance to make yourself into a werewolf avatar and scare old folks and bairns.
154

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 18:28:49
#150

'investment in a world class public transport system,'

What 'world class transport system' are you referring to?

That is the most ridiculous statement you've come out with yet Keith.

155

black custard,

30/10/2009 18:34:02
There was a pro-trammer called Keith
Who wanted to go from Tollcross to Leith
He got the wrong bus by mistake
Cos he'd drank a barrel of Foo's sake
And ended up lying covered in newspapers asleep on a park bench in Cowdenbeath
156

regentlad,

Lothian 30/10/2009 18:53:32
156: Talking of Cowdenbeath. Its now the centenary of the Dunfermline and Cowdenbeath tramway, (now long gone) the bus company Stagecoach have painted a bus in tramway colours to celebrate. Now could our councillors not have settled for painting the number 22 buses in old Corporation tram colours, then painting silver lines on the streets and be done with it? Could have saved us all a fortune.


157

roadstohell,

30/10/2009 19:17:53
http://www.ngtmetro.com/video/animation2min.htm

now why didn't we think of that ?
158

Euan,

Edinburgh 30/10/2009 19:29:42
#150 (again)

'Who sees investment in a world class public transport system, as something that will take away your credibility in using up the worlds energy. damaging the ozone layer, with the pollution from your expensive toy? '

Expensive toy as in a Vauxhall Vivaro 1.9 CD-Ti or a £700 million++ shambolic tram project??

Tell me Keith, how many tens of thousands (eventually maybe millions) of gallons of Diesel and other oil-based products do you think are being needlessly wasted on the construction of this 'investment'?

How about the HUGE amounts of energy which have been used to mine and produce the steel and other metals used to build the tracks and the trams themselves? Hmmmm?

Oh, and how about the VAST amount of electricity the trams will consume if, and when, they ever get up and running? The VAST majority of this power will come from coal-fired power stations.

Keith, you're full of complete and utter bile.


159

The Gorgie Boys Are In Town,

30/10/2009 19:46:30
Trams are wonderful things, love don't hate!! too many tree huggers in Scotland i think and they are all on this pi55 poor en article about payment methods for boarding something which hasn't been decided yet.

Some funny characters too and have enjoyed reading most of it :)
160

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 30/10/2009 19:53:00
One of the best investments that could be made would be to buy a few round the world airline tickets for some key anti-trammers. They cost about 800-900 pounds for some airline groups. Then let them visit some places which have light-rail/tramway systems and also visit some car and bus dependent places.
Then let them put up some postings on their experiences.
I have a sneaking feeling there will be a few less anti-trammers at the end of it.
I had 15 years in New Zealand and their main city, Auckland is almost totally dependent on buses and cars. They have a minimal diesel train service on 2 lines and the palce is a traffic shambles, motorways right to the centre, parking terrible, pollution horrible.
Now they are starting to fix it, admittedly slowly. How are they doing it, new buses.. tried that but did not work, people would not use them.
No, they started inversting intheir tiny rail system and traffic on it is booming even with passengers on ex BR 30 year old coaches and some 50 year old Aussie museum pieces. Electrification is now starting and passengers numbers are going to rise 10 fold.
Edinburgh is well ahead in already having some decent rail routes, some closed and can reopen them quite easily.
I support the trams in principle although I would have gone underground from Haymarket and emerged at Abbeyhill to use the old Leith Central line to get to Leith. This would give a better link to the Waverley with a station on the Princes Mall site. I would complete a north circle line and also headed east to access the old South Sub to make a south circle.
Branches west to Airport and Newbridge and east to Newcraighall and then via old routes to Musselburgh and Wallyford to interchange with main line trains and south to Dalkeith and Penicuik.
Crossing this could be a Newhaven via Scotland St tunnel and south in tunnel to corss the sub near Lady Road [with interchange] and out past the infirmary towards Danderhall.
Cost realistically about 2-3 billion, bene
161

Ian down under,

Musselburgh 30/10/2009 19:55:20
You don't get enough space to write here. I was just getting going.
162

BROONISDOOMED,

30/10/2009 22:14:17
so those who either dont have one,or cant get one from their bank,will not be allowed on the trams?
my god discrimanation in fav of those who have against the have nots
what next?,segragated compartments,just like south africa had?
just take the cash,as LRT do and have no probs with it
so when we see the passengers on the trams ,we will know they have a credit card?,hand for some local oik to spot,and raid that persons bin for statements and we all know what a crook can do with stealing identity
TIE-Those In Employment,the very ones whom tie want,not giro johnny and his weans
163

Foo,

30/10/2009 22:35:55
#163

No, not at all, you can buy a ticket at any tram stop with cash.

Your little rant looks pretty silly now huh?
164

Julian.,

edinburgh 30/10/2009 22:49:02
Euan,

You can get away with your ridculous predictions (for now) but you can't get away from false information.

The vast majority of electricity does not come for coal. That's utter nonsense. At present the figure is 30%, and with the government's co2 commitments it will be 20% by 2020 and 10& by 2050.

Also, could you tell me how many gallons of diesel will be save over the next 100 years by the removal of 100 buses from our streets?
165

Julian.,

edinburgh 30/10/2009 22:55:33
Euan,

I'll save you the trouble. If each bus does 8mpg and runs for 15 hours a day they would use approximately 160 million gallons or 745 million litres of diesel.

It's a rough estimate, but whatever way you look at it, that's a hell of a lot of diesel.
166

Julian.,

edinburgh 30/10/2009 23:03:22
Foo,

Good point. I'm not so sure about this ban on cash sales on board the tram though. Doesn't sound like a great idea. In Amsterdam, they have inspectors in a booth who sells tickets and it works very well with no hold ups.

They should still allow cash on board but they should encourage people to prepay before they board by offering a discount.
167

Think Tank,

30/10/2009 23:34:10
rs #165

We have the bare scrapings of "integrated ticketing" and certainly don't have an integrated public transport network (my point).

Even if you gave a bus an exclusive bus lane with limited stops and conductors it would still be:
a) slower at offloading/boarding
b) slower acceleration/deceleration/speed off public road
c) poorer ride quality
d) require 8 times as many staff to conduct/drive
e) do nothing to reduce street level pollution
f) be proven in numerous multi-country studies to be ineffective at getting people out of cars.

Seriously, some of the comments on here are embarrassing. They really do display a complete lack of even the most basic understanding of what's coming. It is partly perpetuated by the frankly p!ss-poor level of journalism in this paper- take the headline and story in this article...the KEY point to anyone of interest is that TEL are planning to introduce an "Oyster like" system of top-up cards. Lothian buses have previously refused to do this saying that the administrative costs/banking laws are too complex. THAT'S the big story. The stuff about credit card usage is interesting but frankly if TEL introduce an Oyster card 90% of Edinburgh residents will get one- that's the headline.

But the nonsense "credit card only" headline is completely misleading and when you have readers of limited intellect (e.g. "BROONISDOOMED" #163), they just take away this snippet and it perpetuates into a myth such as those I dispelled in my post above.

Apart from those I've already discussed there is so much other misinformation. Somebody actually stated that the tram tracks were a safety risk for Hogmanay because people would trip over them! This is presumably after seeing the half completed rails on Princes Street a month ago and completely not understanding how tram tracks are integrated into the street. It's so naive it's almost sweet.

Another said that double decker buses would knock over the power wires at junctions and GENUIN
168

Think Tank,

30/10/2009 23:34:48
***CONTINUED...

Another said that double decker buses would knock over the power wires at junctions and GENUINELY believed that nobody would have thought of this before. Add this to the "it won't even go to the airport" myth, the "higher prices for trams" etc. etc. and it's clear to see that a significant number of those who are anti-tram really are just VERY VERY badly misinformed.
169

tumshie heid,

30/10/2009 23:35:16
Keith Walloby whats the matter? Banned from the Pontefract Gazzette again?
Please jump under a tram to save us from your tosh.
170

tumshie heid,

30/10/2009 23:38:34
#170 thats right think tank, no one but you is correct. How dare people voice their displeasure at such a wonderful scheme as Edinburgh's trams.
Fools the lot of them.
Don't they know that only pro tram people are able to ascertain whether trams are good for Edinburgh.
171

Julian.,

edinburgh 30/10/2009 23:53:39
Turnshie,

Well said.

And well done EEN for putting up a totally misleading headline (no doubt deliberately) which will be fresh meat to the frothing-at-the-mouth anti-tram brigade....some of which will now believe that TIE is truly the devil by only allowing people to pay by credit card.
172

Julian.,

edinburgh 30/10/2009 23:55:54
Sorry, that last comment was to think tank, not Turnshie.

But on the subject of Turnshie, you have to admit that when it comes to spreading misinformation, the anti-tram brigade are well in fornt.
173

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 31/10/2009 00:17:56
#167 - Trolley buses or hyrid buses would have saved even more CO2 as there is no need for the massive civils. They would also have saved about £600-650million which buys an awful, awful lot of CO2 offset.

The environmental benefits of the vanity tram are described in its own business plan as a "minor positive". Even then this is subject to challenge given it excludes incremental pollution caused by construction delays and cannot properly assess negative impact by displacing traffic. Hardly worth spending £700m or so on.

169 - Thick Tank. You are incorrect in every single point you make other than street level pollution - and even that can be beaten by using hybrid or trolley buses at a fraction of the capital and much lower operating costs. Slower at boarding / offloading. How often do more than a few people get on / off at individual stops? If bus passengers could simply file on then there would be no difference. How would buses need 8 times as many staff - Remember they expect to need over 100 staff just for the single line we may get if they find enough money. Poorer ride quality is highly subjective - many trams I have been on are not that smooth riding as they have virtually no suspension. Potholes reflects poor road surface maintenance but at least the bus passenger is highly likely to be seated! Seated and a few bumps is generally preferably to standing, no matter how smooth the surface is! Buses slower at accelerating / decelerating? Yep, steel traction and 60 tons to move / stop is much better than rubber and 12 tons (not to mention if stopping in a hurry having 170 people standing is a massive risk). Do nothing to get people out of their cars - so all those bus-based park and rides are never used by anybody?

Oh, and the killer. A probable cost in the region of £700 million pounds and permanent operating losses. Yep, the arguments for this tram line really stand up.
174

tumshie heid,

31/10/2009 00:42:59
sorry Julian but when it comes to spreading misinformation, the top contender for that prize has to be TIE and/or Dawe. (World class tram network(one line does not a network make), taking you to the shops in 2011,etc etc)
175

Big Tam fae The Pans,

31/10/2009 00:43:20
The big clincher for me to be serious for a moment is whether or not we build more lines. If we dont its pretty much silly really. i'll still have fun using it though and so should you.
176

Julian.,

edinburgh 31/10/2009 02:58:02
Turnshie,

Some fair points.

Or is this just more misinformation?

Here's what she said last November in the Evening News:-

"I am confident that we have a solid team going forward to deliver a world-class transport network for the city, many of whom have worked on other tram schemes and major construction projects."

And of course the "taking you to the shops in 2011" slogan, although inaccurate, was an intention by TIE.

It's not quite the same thing as the nonsense which gets spouted on these forums like "they won't even go to the aiport or The Gyle" or that buses won't be able to go under the cables.
177

Julian.,

edinburgh 31/10/2009 03:14:03
GraemeH

If trolley buses were such a great solution then they would have them all over Europe. I can't think of a British city which has them and trams outnumber them 10 to 1 across the continent.

Granted, they would cost less to install but you still have the overhead cables. And the cost of moving/renewing utilities for the trams cannot be fully counted in my opinion as it's saving money for the future.

And at the end of the day it's a bus, with all the disadvantages that has. Compare Lothian Buses to travelling on a tram in any European city. Totally slow and inefficient. If they could have streamlined it to be as efficient as a tram, why haven't they done so? A tram with 250 people, six doors and everything automated, speeds the whole thing up. It also makes it economic to put a conductor on board to help speed things up as well. You couldn't do that on a 22 bus carrying 45 people.

Trolley buses would not attract people out their cars either. Trams have been proven to do this.

There are other arguments in favour of trams but I think I've gone on enough.
178

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 31/10/2009 07:37:52
There are a great number of pensioners who this will not suit. Destroying a great bus service for locals for trams for tourists seems a very bad thing for the SNP to have rubber stamped.
179

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 31/10/2009 10:21:58
#179 Julian, after the Leeds tram scheme was scrapped because of huge cost increases and very poor value for money they are now pressing ahead with trolley bus schemes. In Europe, generally they did not rip up their tram networks so why would they need trolley buses? I do wonder tho if given the hybrid trolley buses now being introduced if more cities will use them given their lower cost and greater flexibility.

Your comment about ignoring utility costs is incorrect - the huge majority of these utilities had nothing wrong with them, with remaining lives of, in some cases 80 years. As an aside, it costs massively more to move utilities than to upgrade them in situ.

Comparing a bus with a tram depends on the bus, the route, frequency, the costs etc. Lothian Buses services are very good; comprehensive, low cost (at present, altho the tram will jeapordise that), modern fleet, flexible. Yes, they have some downsides such as ticket readers that are too slow and in some areas far too many stops too close together. But this idea that trams glide along, never held up just isn't the case in practice.

And buses do attract people out of their cars, otherwise all bus based park and rides would be empty.

Yes, trams have some (marginal) benefits over buses but the key issue is the massive cost both to build and then to operate which makes new build tram systems such a poor idea. What a difference £700m could have made to wider public transport provision in the lothians if our politicians were not so keen to indulge their vanity, and stick one up the SNP.
180

Euan,

Edinburgh 31/10/2009 11:25:22
#166 Julian

You said the 'vast majority of electricity does not come for coal. That's utter nonsense. At present the figure is 30%, and with the government's co2 commitments it will be 20% by 2020 and 10& by 2050.'

I said that the vast majority of the electricity for the TRAMS will surely come from the closest power stations situated to Edinburgh, ie Cockenzie and Longannet - both of which are coal-fired; with nuclear-powered Torness filling in the rest.

The trams will be running for pretty much 24 hours per day (IF they ever get up and running that is) and would require a massive base load electricity supply - and these power stations are the only ones which are closest by and capable of supplying that load.

And Longannet and Cockenzie will be running for a few more years yet..

Oh, and I stand firmly by my predictions of fares etc.




181

Euan,

Edinburgh 31/10/2009 11:41:04
In case you missed it Julian, follow the link below that #137 posted to catch a glimpse of how things will be when a tram rumbles past at say St Andrews square - IF they are ever completed that is..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEeX-JA2E-E

I can see the council getting quite a few, very heated, letters of complaint..

182

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 31/10/2009 11:51:51
#182 - The tram will not be a success in terms of passenger numbers. Whilst it will have millions of journeys each year, it will never reach the amount stated in the business plan or even enough to cover its own costs as there is, quite simply, not enough people living and working along the route.

50% of passengers in 2011(!) from Haymarket to the Airport were to come from growth. This growth has not happened at all. The Waterfront is at least 12 years behind plan, there has been no new development at Edinburgh Park, Gogarburn is shrinking, the Airport is barely growing at all - and only thanks to Ryanair who, as we have seen, will play airports off against each other (what price when EDI or GLA gets sold Ryanair turns the screw) - and the idea of another RBS sized development at Gogar is an utter fantasy.

These warning signs were all there when the route was chosen, yet TIE ignored them.
183

Keith Wilby,

PONTEFRACT 31/10/2009 12:08:53
Trams cost up to one quarter less, to operate per passenger mile than buses

Euan can you tell me all you know about regenerative braking Please
184

roadstohell,

31/10/2009 12:10:43
Ach this'll never happen here ............:/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzC01ht6zqA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsx6bdorDro
185

roadstohell,

31/10/2009 12:13:12
mhhh no regenerative braking on our trams,as far as I know.

We know that rail/tram designs abroad are into this ina a big way, but,

" but "johnny foreigner" what does he know ???? :0(
186

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 31/10/2009 12:57:19
#189 - No they don't - they cost 2.5 times as much. Direct vehicle costs may be presented as very slightly lower (albeit experience suggests these are often understated), however on a full cost basis they are much more expensive. All those power cables, rails and expensive depots need to be paid for.
187

leith ronnie in london hfc ,

essex 02/11/2009 17:55:47
why dont they do the same as london transport has done down here and have an top up card like the osyter card we have also we have the pay meters at bustops and there dont seem to be a problem with tourists here and the buses arre quicker than when they dealt in money as well

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Today's Vote

Should TIE be spending time Twittering and using social networking sites?
Yes, many people communicate this way now
No, it’s just another form of spin
No, it should focus on getting the work done on time


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.