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Thursday, 26th November 2009

Tram workers graft through the night for festive schedule

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Published Date: 03 November 2009
TRAM contractors have been ordered to work through the night to make sure Princes Street is ready to be reopened in time for the looming festive deadline.
Traffic is due to return to the street on 28 November once work to lay the city's first set of tram tracks is completed.

But with the deadline fast approaching, contractors are now working during the night to make sure things are finished in time for the handover and a packed programme of Christmas events.

Contractors last night worked from 7pm to 7am to reconfigure the junction of Hanover Street and George Street.

The work was part of the ongoing effort to have Princes Street ready in time for the end of the month, with further night-time work planned.

Failure to meet the deadline would be a major embarrassment for the city council, with leader Jenny Dawe admitting it will go "right up to the wire".

Previous botched attempts to introduce new traffic management measures mean the council is no longer willing to risk reopening the street on a weekday.

So failure to hit the deadline would result in the reopening of Princes Street being delayed for at least a week, a move which would anger hard-up retailers.

Council leader Jenny Dawe said: "It is all going to plan for reopening Princes Street, but it will be right up to the wire, there is no doubt about that.

"A lot of people will have to pull out all the stops because if we miss that day it will have to be another week, as never again will we reintroduce traffic changes during the week."

Deputy council leader Steve Cardownie said it would be a "PR disaster" for TIE if the tram firm failed to have the street ready in time.

He said: "It's vitally important to have the street back open in time. TIE appear to be confident of meeting the deadline and the public are looking forward to having Princes Street restored to its former glory. They now have to do everything possible to make sure it's ready on time."

City leaders had initially planned to use the festive period to trial pedestrianisation plans, but that idea was dumped after pressure from retailers suffering the double whammy of the recession and the tram works.

Mandy Haeburn-Little, director of communications and customer service for the tram project, said: "We are pleased with the progress being made on Princes Street and everyone is committed to ensuring that the street is returned to the city as planned for the opening weekend of the 28th."

She added that sections of Princes Street would be ready for handover on the morning of 26 November in time for the Edinburgh Sparkles campaign.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 November 2009 9:59 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

Skip McClendon,

03/11/2009 11:17:35
Interesting change in emphasis in the quote from chief spin doctor Mandy here....no longer TIE guaranteeing that Princes Street will be ready by the deadline.

And she still seems to be labouring under the misapprehension that Princes Street has somehow left the city, or that TIE currently owns it....neither is true, Mandy! Princes Street remains in central Edinburgh, and is not owned by TIE, so you will not be "returning" it.
2

Skip McClendon,

03/11/2009 11:51:52
"Contractors last night worked from 7pm to 7am"...

...aye, right! Even when there are loads of folk about during the day to witness them "working", most Tram workies are happy to stand about chatting/smoking/eating steak-bakes etc. Hard to believe they put in a solid 12 hour shift during the night with far fewer folk there to witness it.
3

Skip McClendon,

03/11/2009 11:54:17
Failure to meet the deadline would be a major embarrassment for the city council, with leader Jenny Dawe admitting it will go "right up to the wire".

- Nice hostage to fortune there, Jenny. Haven't you learned anything about your past dealings with these TIE jokers? I don't think they even know what "deadline" means.
4

malcyh,

03/11/2009 12:02:11
This should have been happening since the beginning, not now to play catch up.
5

alfonsa pedrosa,

embra 03/11/2009 12:07:17
I have yet to see a tram worker grafting,all i have ever seen is one guy with a shovel,and the rest watching.
6

Foo,

03/11/2009 12:09:36
That's the spirit. All pulling together for the final push.

I've no doubt at all that we'll now see 200 odd comments from the 10 anti-tramiacs explaining why they will never manage it.

I'm happy to sit back and see what actually happens.
7

Trams shams,

03/11/2009 12:10:55
Jenny Hawe Hawe and Mandy Havering Spittle... What a true reflection of how this truely sad project is once again being highlighted as a failing PR excercise.

I bet the cost for the overtime to work through the night won't be known for some time just to save face if at all or is that why the holes are being fill in a hurry to bury the evidence.
8

Trams shams,

03/11/2009 12:12:18
Good Foo... You just sit back and shut up
9

Heedbanger,

03/11/2009 12:12:30
Their plan is coming to fruition. Work slow as stop so you get overtime at Xmas. Joke.

Sack TIE!!
10

MOE,

03/11/2009 12:12:33
I walked along Princes Street and it was a case off spot the one working an absolute disgrace for every worker at least eight were not,probably ten.Anyone can check this out by taking a short stroll like I did
11

Skip McClendon,

03/11/2009 12:12:56
#6

Final push? C'mon, Foo! Surely the "final push" will be when they actually finish the damn thing! Which isn't going to be by the end of the month. This is an phony deadline, set up to make it look like TIE have actually met a deadline. And they look like they will struggle to even do that!
12

Jack Daniels,

03/11/2009 12:13:40
big whoop, every other major European city does it as a matter of course. I agree with post #4.
13

Mike Hunt,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 12:14:23
I agree with #2 and 4: for a project of this scale, causing this much disruption to people's lives and travel, and which is so far behind, then 7am-7pm working should be the norm, not just to get ready for Christmas. It is clear that there is pressure on now as the increase in actual work done is VERY noticible.

I'm amazed that there is not website full of photos of the workers standing around doing nothing, given the number of anti-tram comments on this website. Maybe there is - anyone care to post a link? Actually the site could be full of movie footage and it would still show workers standing around doing nothing. Hard to tell the difference.

If it has taken this long to "do" Princes St - half a mile maybe? - how on earth will those of us alive just now survive long enough to see the finished article?

14

,

03/11/2009 12:18:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

Big Tam fae The Pans,

03/11/2009 12:20:56
Thats me bored now , this story has literally made me bored. I am fighting back sleep.
16

Rugal,

03/11/2009 12:21:46
Deputy council leader Steve Cardownie said it would be a "PR disaster" for TIE if the tram firm failed to have the street ready in time.

He said: "It's vitally important to have the street back open in time.

In time for what Party Animal? The tourists? The shops? The public? Your street party?

TIE appear to be confident of meeting the deadline and the public are looking forward to having Princes Street restored to its former glory.

Has TIE ever met a deadline? Think back now Party Animal, from the evidence have TIE managed to meet one single deadline? I wouldn't be so confident.

Former glory? You mean Tartan Tat Shops, Mobile Phone Shops, Beggars, Big Issue Sellers, Charity Tabart Wearing Students? Yes let the good times roll Steve.

They now have to do everything possible to make sure it's ready on time."

What's the penalty if they don't hand the street back to the city on time Steve? Sackings? Resignations? Or more likely a few mumbled apologies and nothing else.

How's the fight for a place on The SNP Lothains list going Steve? I hear not so good. Did you really suggest standing in both Council & Holyrood elections "just in case"?
17

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 12:22:23
ermmm have most of you missed the real plot here? the council are desperate to get princes street opened for the festive season, how many times have you heard how many millions they make over that period? grap the cash and then f*** the residents after the festive season is over! whether you agree or disagree with this fiasco evry single person in edinburgh is paying through the nose nad, mark my words! its going to get worse!
18

coinsorter,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 12:22:36
NO CHANCE WHAT SO EVER!!!!!
19

Junglebhoy,

Livingston 03/11/2009 12:40:15
#17 For once, I agree with you, btw are your bins still getting emptied on time?

Looking forward to the Festive period around Edinburgh now.
20

Mince Pie Supper,

03/11/2009 12:48:45
20

I think you are being foolish old man. The Trams will have no Top Deck.

Numpty.
21

Mince Pie Supper,

03/11/2009 12:50:17
20

Also there will be no rolls available either as no buffet car has as yet been promised.

Numpty II
22

pongo2009,

03/11/2009 12:55:04
#13 If it has taken this long to "do" Princes St - half a mile maybe? - how on earth will those of us alive just now survive long enough to see the finished article?

Been shocked at the disruption and time taken in spite of the luxury of complete traffic removal for months, commerce only down one side with trade access off Rose Street and not too many utilites, Mound junction excepted.

Shandwick Place traders must be worried sick.

Leith Walk traders probably needn't be.
23

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 12:55:58
#19 bins emptied regularly but streets not being cleaned!
#20 yup numpty I & II now III. top deck and buffet just for you. ps. are you on drugs?
24

,

03/11/2009 12:57:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

Mince Pie Supper,

03/11/2009 12:58:56
24

What on earth are you talking about Gordon. I have seen the mockup there is no top deck.

PS How dare you accuse me of being on drugs. In what way do you come to that assumption?

Numpty IV and Quite rude too.
26

Foo,

03/11/2009 13:04:33
#26

Re-read #24
27

Mince Pie Supper,

03/11/2009 13:10:16
26

Sorry Gordon, I'll get some glasses.
28

Mince Pie Supper,

03/11/2009 13:22:46
28

A pack of 6 Tumblers
29

Mince Pie Supper,

03/11/2009 13:23:05
29

Is the circus in town?
30

Incandescent,

03/11/2009 13:26:23
"with leader Jenny Dawe admitting it will go "right up to the wire"."

What does that even mean? The phrase is "go down to the wire", referring to folk running on old crossply tyres until they literally wore "down to the wire" carcass within.

Take note Jenny.
31

,

03/11/2009 13:34:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

Incandescent,

03/11/2009 13:36:09
#32 :-)
33

Mince Pie Supper,

03/11/2009 13:38:06
The Wire is an American television drama series set in Baltimore, Maryland, where it was also produced. Created, produced, and primarily written by author and former police reporter David Simon, the series was broadcast by the premium cable network HBO in the United States. The Wire premiered on June 2, 2002 and ended on March 9, 2008, with 60 episodes airing over the course of its five seasons.
34

Jams,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:39:44
"TIE appear to be confident "

Nuff said.

Dooooomed I tell ya laddie
35

black custard,

03/11/2009 13:44:29


Does Jenny Dawe watch "The Wire"?

Tru dat.
36

oldseasarg,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 13:47:52
#34
Thank you for this weeks most useless piece of information;-)
37

jtdx,

03/11/2009 13:51:52
I guess that work on Hanover street/George Street is done during the night because half-blocking George Street during the day-time would make all previous traffic-jams in Edinburgh seem trivial.
38

gordon aka smoker and proud,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 14:03:27
#27 ta foo
#28 np mate, specsavers got a sale on now in prnces street!!!!! hehehehehehehehe
39

JT,

03/11/2009 14:09:03
will anyone notice the difference!
40

black custard,

03/11/2009 14:22:36

EEN - stop styling Mandy Haeburn-Little as "director of communications and customer service for the tram project" - that makes it look like she's an employee of TIE rather than the outsourced PR she actually provides.
41

dyon gollins's back,

Den Haag 03/11/2009 14:30:54
As the late Mattha McGinn put it - 'Three nights and Sunday double time......work all day, work all night, to hell wi' you Jack I'm all right!' Nae wunner it's over budget with this kin' o' cairry on!! Noo pass the cairds ah've work tae dae!!!
42

trammy tam,

leith 03/11/2009 14:40:44
How can it be that TIE are only going to maybe, perhaps, possibly finish Princes Street 'by the skin of their teeth and in time for Edinburgh Sparkles?' Surely, as they were given a nice, big, shiny worksite with no distractions and also a nice long, straight road, there should have been certain 'stops' pulled out in order to make sure they did it within schedule and to re-assure the public that they are in fact capable of delivering at least one part of this ill-conceived project on time?

One wonders what will happen when they have to tackle a 'bend' in the road?!

Has anyone else noticed the lack of working going on in Leith, West End, Haymarket while they push all their manpower in the direction of Princes Street?

Why is Princes Street so important?

Constitution Street has been closed, yes CLOSED, for over a year and a half but I see no 24 hour working to get that finished for the traders there.

There is surely merit in pulling the plug on this fiasco NOW before they bring the city to several more standstills over the course of the next three years.

Did I say three years? Yup, they aint gonna run in 2011 and I would wager they won't be seen in 2012 either.

TIE know it, the Cooncil know it and the public has a right to know and now.

End of rant!!
43

James (1),

03/11/2009 14:46:15
Well done these workmen! Working throughout the night at no extra cost to the project.
You never know it may just come in under budget and on time?
44

Tynietiger,

03/11/2009 14:54:02
Graft all night? Last week when I was in Princes Street, which I normally avoid due to the disruption, there were more tram workers hanging around than actually working.
45

black custard,

03/11/2009 15:08:02
#43

I'd guess they won't announce significant delays until early April.

It will initially be reported as a six-month expected delay. Then it'll be a year-long delay, and then it'll be an eighteen month delay.

And what with time being related to money, all this can mean is that it'll go up and up in price.

Edinburgh is hurting.
46

Gopher,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 15:31:52
#43 Why do u assume constitution st. will re-open. It will remain permanently closed to traffic apart from trams.
47

eDUCATIon,

03/11/2009 15:55:58
Ive set the Sky+ box for Mega Structures series link.

Can anyone tell me when Edinburgh Trams are featured as I want to make sure theres enough hard disk space available...........
48

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 16:07:44
Gopher (47) - here is a link to the Traffic Regulations Orders, as currently proposed:

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/Transport/Public_transport/Trams/CEC_traffic_regulation__tro__design_update_exhibition
49

Douglas,

Bathgate 03/11/2009 16:53:39
#48 eDUCATIon: It's been moved to "When Good Pet Projects Go Bad".
50

Euan,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 17:02:36
#49

Interesting link there Sarah.

Just looking at the proposed route again makes this tram project look even more ridiculous than ever!

Should this farce ever near completion and trams actually start running in Edinburgh, I think the council are going to have to set up a 'screeching trams complaints department'. They should do it soon, as they're going to need to recruit some very well-versed, extremely calm individuals to answer the hundreds of angry complaints about the noise..

..especially on St Andrew's square/York Place and down in Leith.

51

Douglas,

Bathgate 03/11/2009 17:16:33
#31 incandescent: If I may correct you on a couple of points:

Down to the wire refers to approaching the winning line, formerly a wire, in horse racing.
Crossply tyres were/are generally assembled using fabric cords, steel wires being used in radials.

Apart from that, very informative. Thank you.
52

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 17:24:02
Now, Euan (51), I remember TIE stating at a presentation that the trams would be very quiet: "all you will hear will be a slight whoosh". Don't tell me they may have been talking rubbish - again.

The route has never really made sense to me but, then, I had expected such an expensive public-funded project to deliver some improvement in existing public transport provision, rather than a tram to help sell some half-baked private property development. Silly me.

53

Euan,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 17:59:58
#53

Oh yes, i remember that codswallop all right Sarah!

In case you missed it the other day, roadstohell posted this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEeX-JA2E-E

And what happens when a tram goes round a tighter bend??

Oh yes, it screeches even more......
54

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 18:32:37
53: The trams will cause considerable noise, vibration and interference to those living along the route. The old trams screeched considerably, and these were just 62 seaters, much smaller and lighter than the 'world class' trams ordered by the Council. Electrical interference to radios and the few televisions around, was reported. Imagine how things will be now with so many people having all sorts of electrical equipment, in particular computers. Trams will start around 6am and come off at midnight. Barely 6 hours sleep for those on the route, but one thing, they won't need to pick up a timetable - they'll soon get to know it !

55

archie12,

03/11/2009 18:41:52
Try listening to the much admired (by TIE people)LUAS trams as they screech round the tight corners at Connolly.
56

tumshie heid,

03/11/2009 19:04:08
Tram workers, graft? Just like santa says ho ho ho.
To hell with every where else affected by the misery that is the tramworks. As long as we have Princes Street open every thing is ok. Hypocritical mismanagement. Why haven't they sorted out the works in Leith first? The traders there have suffered the longest so far.
57

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 19:04:20
51: When the project was put to the Council vote, Cllrs Burns, Henderson, Aitken and Wheeler were going on about property values and demand increasing along the tram route. I think these dafties got it wrong: perhaps should have been insurance premiums increasing along the route! And the only demand will be from those trying to leave. Those attempting to sell might need to have viewing times during the night otherwise they won't hear themselves.

58

Foo,

03/11/2009 19:20:13
55

Strange that none of that has ever happened to me, what with me having lived directly on a tram route for 6+ years.
59

valleyjim,

03/11/2009 19:21:02
Has anyone ever actualy seen "Little Havering Mandy"? I keep wondering what she looks like. Can anyone enlighten me?
60

Gopher,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 19:26:02
#49 Sarah B. Look again. only trams both ways and only local buses going south. No other traffic.
61

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 19:49:29
59: The noise was one of the main reasons why the Tory Council back then got rid of the trams Foo.

62

Foo,

03/11/2009 20:00:57
#62

You mean the noise made by the old, outdated trams?

Aren't we discussing modern day trams? They don't make any such noise as you describe in #55.
63

Corstorphine Boy,

West Side 03/11/2009 21:05:46
#34. Where's Omar when you need him.
64

is it me?,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 21:11:24
All this money would have been better spent on saving African babies so they can grow up big and strong and attack us with assault rifles when we're least expecting it.
65

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:05:08
#62, Regentlad

"The noise was one of the main reasons why the Tory Council back then got rid of the trams Foo."

Could we please have the source of information on that one.

Of course even if it was true, it wouldn't be the first time politicians cast up false reasons to do something for a political agenda.
66

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:07:00
SarahB,

You're a lot more informed on these things. Why did they decide not to run the trams up Leith Street onto Princes Street? There must be at least a half-logical explanation for it.
67

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:12:31
Skip,

You don't have to own something to be returning it.

I don't know. Some people will pick on anything just to take a dig at TIE.
68

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:31:51
I suppose it makes up for the lack of digging they do themselves.
69

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:32:13
Julian (67) - The background papers in relation to the Line 1 route sifting say:

"The alignment runs south along Leith Street from the Picardy Place roundabout to Princes Street. Main issues are technical and operational feasibility, access and servicing of business frontagers as well as the traffic interface at junctions. In addition, the location of a stop through this section of alignment is not possible and the interaction of right turning traffic bus services and the OLE configuration needs to be considered carefully. In relation to right turning traffic, particular difficulties may be encountered at the entrance to the Greenside Car Park accessed from Nottingham Place. The remodelling and operation of the Leith Street/Waterloo Place/North Bridge and Princes Street is fundamental to this particular section of alignment and we consider that in terms of the feasibility of the co-existent tight horizontal curvature and steep gradients it is questionable at best and highly undesirable in terms of operations which would result in significant traffic impacts."
70

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:39:39
Thanks Sarah,

I can see the problems they would have had with that. However the issue of a tram stop on Leith Street is irrelevant as they could have put one right outside Princes Mall. There could be major problems with the route they've chosen as well. It's a pity they couldn't have worked out a way to accomodate all traffic and make the junction work. After all, it worked fine back in the 1950's.
71

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:47:34
Julian (71) - I agree that there could be major problems but, either way, they would have had to deal with the Picardy Place Junction which may well prove as problematic as Haymarket.
72

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 22:57:47
SarahB

Surely Picardy Place would have been easier with the trams going up Leith Street as they would just keep to the left rather than having to cross to York Place.

And a tram stop outside the station would have been much better. It would also have shut up all the moaners who cite the tram stop on St Andrew Square as proof that the trams are not integrated.
73

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:10:00
Julian (73) - I agree that it would have been a better route in terms of accessibility, but the main priority in determining the final route appears to have been "technical difficulty" as that roughly translates as "cheapest".

In this case, the Leith Street section scored the lowest possible mark (-3) in terms of "technical difficulty", whilst the York Place alternative scored only -1 and the technical issues there, mentioned in the papers, were not considered so serious.

Another example, was the choice of the Roseburn Corridor (isolated and comparatively far from passenger generators). This option was considered to be easier and cheaper to construct than a route which would have provided a stop on Crewe Road South where there were many major passenger generators - not least the Western General Hospital. Again, what was considered technically easier took priority over what would maximise passenger numbers.

This is one of my main issues with what was the original Tram Line 1 proposal - what was considered cheapest and easist to build was given much higher precedence than what would be of benefit to the public.
74

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:17:14
Julian - sorry should have explained that in relation to the scoring of each section, this was based on a range of -3 (worst option) to +3 (best option) against the criteria of "technical difficulty", "transport", "environment" and "economy".

None of these criteria adequately covered accessibility, ie, social inclusion/catchment, and is the basis of my concern re the route's likely inability to maximise passenger numbers.

These criteria were different to the Scottish Transport Appraisal Guidance Criteria which were used correctly for the route selection of Tram Line 2 and Tram Line 3, and included "accessibility". This would explain why Tram Line 3, in particular, was a route which would have provided stops at many more key passenger generators and, therefore, proved more beneficial to the travelling public than Tram Line 1.
75

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:21:37
Sarah,

I agree with you. Vast capital projects like these which are going to last for decades should be done right. The extra money (within reason) should have been spent and I would have accepted a rise in my taxes to do it.

Were these technical ratings not translated into cost? Without that they mean nothing really.
76

Euan,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:27:21
#76 Julian

'Vast capital projects like these which are going to last for decades (!?) should be done right.'

My goodness, how right you are Julian.

Such a shame Edinburgh's tram project isn't being 'done right', eh?

77

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 23:32:28
Julian, during the years 1946-1950 the Tory party put forward a case for 'motor buses' over trams. They maintained the motor bus was of less cost, noise, and taffic congestion potential and was more adaptable to the needs of Edinburgh. This was disputed by the Labour party. The public wanted to retain the trams, an independent inquiry and a plebiscite were asked for but rejected by the Council. At a full Council meeting in Sept 1952 the case to abandon the tramway system and replace with buses was accepted by 31 to 21 votes.
It was later found that a costs comparison put forward by the Council treasurer hadn't included the cost of new buses.

Re your 3rd para. That's quite true and obviously happened in 1952.
78

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:37:16
Hi Euan,

Yes, but they rarely ever are. The French, Germans and Spanish are generally better at doing these things.

I watched your screeching tram video. I suspect there's probably a mechanical reason for the level of the noise.

What's your prediction for Princes Street reopening?

On the subject of which I must correct the usual misinformation being spouted on these forums (not you on this occasion). Princes Street is nearly 1 mile long, not half a mile.
79

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 23:40:47
Sarah, re the city cente route. Leith Street would have been most practical route for the tramline. In the old days this was a narrow street and parked vehicles often caused problems for trams. But now its widened and has space. The chosen route via York Place/ St Andrew Square will require much work at the junction with York Pl where there's a considerable camber. Routing by Leith St would have enabled a useful interchange between the tram, buses and trains at top of Waverley Steps.
80

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:44:37
Regentlad,

Thanks for the clarification. So the noise was put forward as part of the reason to get rid of them.

However no further invetigation into the public mood was taken. And the opposition wanted to keep them.

So it was never really established whether the noise was a problem. In fact, evidence suggests that it wasn't.
81

Euan,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 23:56:36
#79

Come on Julian, come on! That screeching sound is how that tram sounds every time it passes that turn - plain and simple physics in action there Mate.

It will be exactly the same in Edinburgh should the trams ever get up and running - severe screeching with constant and comprehensive complaints from local residents to the council about the noise.



82

regentlad,

Lothian 03/11/2009 23:59:12
Julian, (71) In the old tramway days, trams ran on both routes, some via York Place, some via Leith St, those via Leith St were always viewed as the faster option. And Leith Street then was much narrower.

Whether better by either route might well be immaterial as I believe the Council chose the wrong route for the tram-line. A much better option for a tramline would have been using the south side route say from Waverley to Infirmary. On that route there are 3 quite major roads, Causewayside, Minto St/Newington, Dalkeith Road. One of these, say Newington would have been selected for the tramway and a 'reservation' made, only a few buses would have been retained on this route the rest diverted via the other two parallel routes. At Lady Road the tram would have followed bus route 49 towards the Infirmary. This would also have given the potential to link up the tram with the old rail suburban lines at Newington and Cameron Toll should that ever be re-opened and almost certainly would have cost much less - and at same time having the potential to cover more of the city's travelling population. I'm doubtful if the line from Waverley to Airport is required. There's already a frequent coach service. But in any case a better option there would have been looking into a loop on the Edinburgh to Fife rail line which passes very near the Airport.
83

Euan,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 00:01:20
#79

With regards to Princes St re-opening, I suspect that TIE will try and throw everything including the kitchen sink at it in trying to make it happen - but will probably fail by about 2-4 weeks...
84

regentlad,

Lothian 04/11/2009 00:05:16
Julian, noise was certainly a factor as screeching a common complaint particularly on bends and at areas of the track which needed grinding or other maintainance. Vibration and Arcing were also problems and interference to TV's and radios in houses in close proximity to the lines. And the old trams were much shorter and lighter than the new trams ordered so its anything but certain that some or all these problems won't return.
85

Kishefmakher,

Giffnock 04/11/2009 00:12:47
"Princes Street is nearly 1 mile long, not half a mile."

says Julian.

Thanks for the geography lesson.

The trams don't go the length of Princes Street though, do they? The section being worked on in that case is pretty far off the length of a mile.
86

regentlad,

Lothian 04/11/2009 00:15:44
Julian (81) Its fair to say the majority of people in Edinburgh wanted to keep trams except of course most Councillors. Now history is repeating itself - except with the opposite intentions!

This isn't about whether people dislike trams. Its more about whether Edinburgh needs and can afford this costly project which could well end up costing a billion pounds. No-one knows the final cost. The bottom line is there is already an excellent number 22 bus service which didn't need replaced. The talk of 'waterfront development', population moving to Leith and a substantial rise in public transport usage along the route has turned out to be wrong. The opposite is in fact happening leaving the Council with a potential white elephant and an empty bank account.
87

regentlad,

Lothian 04/11/2009 00:27:21
Euan (84) They'll have to pull out all the stops, whether they can or not remains to be seen. I'd expect senior councillors such as Wheeler and the TiE people will be down there daily to monitor progress. If they're concentrating resources on getting that stretch ready and safe to open then no reason why they can't. But remember it may well be at the expense of progress in other places. eg Haymarket and Leith Walk. A bit unfair to Leith Walk which has been left in a state for much longer than other places.
88

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/11/2009 01:04:51
Euan

I'm no expert on the subject but I bet there's a mechanical explanation for that level of screeching. I've heard nothing like that in all the cities I've been to with trams.

I've taken note of your prediction and, guess what...I disagree. Princes Street will reopen on the 28th. Not because TIE are a byword for efficiency but because there is so much pressure on them to do it.

Maybe the EEN could then start focusing on the shambles of Haymarket.
89

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/11/2009 01:15:11
Regentlad,

Talk of a billion pounds is just a figure plucked out the air. Even the anti-tram SNP MSP who looked into it has said absolute worst case scenario is £750m.

The waterfront development is behind schedule, not cancelled. And with house prices rising again it won't be long before construction rates return to previous levels.

Personally, I would thought a better idea would be to stop at Ocean Terminal and extend it to Newhaven at a later date. They can still do that as no work has yet been carried out on this part of the route.

The truth is nobody knows how popular the line will be. Notoriously unpredictable human individuals will decide that. As we saw in Nottingham and Dublin, passenger numbers exceeded the most oprimistic predictions so who knows.
90

Kishefmakher,

04/11/2009 02:15:06
Talk of half a billion pounds? That figure was plucked out of a monkey's gullet
91

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/11/2009 03:00:50
Talk of £4 tram fares. That figure was plucked out of Alisdair Darling's pre-budget report.
92

JFW,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 09:13:44
I've seen some people compare the trams optimistically to what happened in Dublin but this is nonsense. The Dublin trams were always a good idea - 2 of them coming into the city centre, mostly away from the busy roads (one of them reaches the city centre and only hits the road for the last half mile or so) and they come from and through huge tracts of the suburbs and a large park and ride servicing the busiest satellite towns outside the city, and on top of this the bus services were rubbish to start with. There is no comparison between that and what we're getting here.
93

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 09:15:07
regentlad (80) - I agree and the problem with the route sifting process is that it appears to be highly subjective. It also assumes that the author has expertise in a particular area, eg, trams and, in this case, I do not believe that the author did have such experience.

Julian (76)- I completely agree that a scheme, such as this, must be done right, if done at all, and there is guidance in place which endeavours to achieve that. However, in the case of Tram Line 1, that guidance, in my opinion, was not complied with and I am at a loss to understand why Transport Scotland considered it to be acceptable.

As regards costings, the purpose of the route sifting process in relation to the tram scheme would have been to determine the optimum route(s) compared against the five STAG objectives of environment, accessibility/social inclusion, integration, economy and safety (note - no "technical difficulty").

STAG requires that, the higher the cost to the public purse, the more comprehensive the sifting procedure should have been and possible sections of route should only really have been discounted on the basis of being a technical "showstopper".

My understanding is that it is after the optimum route has been identified that the cost factor comes into play.

This procedure in the case of Tram Line 1, in my opinion, was not applied correctly. I believe that there was a preconception that the line should run from the N Edinburgh developments to the city centre as quickly and as cheaply (to construct) as possible. I recall that TIE initially wanted as few tramstops as possible in order to achieve this.

In removing the accessibility/social inclusion criteria, there was no mechanism left in the sifting process to identify where the major passenger bases were.

Tram Line 3's route sifting, on the other hand, seems to me to have been pretty much done by the book (2 books, in fact, are the length of it, compared to Tram Line 1's 15 or so pages of A5!) and Tr
94

Sarah B,

04/11/2009 09:17:38
... and Tram Line 2's was also better.

Again, I do not understand why Transport Scotland allowed such different methods of dealing with the route sifting between the three proposed lines and for the route which complied least with its own guidance to take precedence over the others.
95

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 15:56:21
#95, Sarah - perhaps because Transport Scotland was only established out of the (then) Labour-dominated Scottish Executive in January 2006, (supposedly) removing operational transport decisions from partisan political interference, but by which time all key decisions had been taken. Line 1 was inextricably linked to The Waterfront, another socialist vanity (& control) project; something more suited to Ceuscescu's Romania. One depended symbiotically on the other; one for 'transport', the other to provide pasenger volume. The other 'vanity' issue was the imperative of The Line passing along Princes Street for an 'iconic' photo-backdrop, and that's why so much effort continues, to provide the current crop of elected imbeciles with their Tram & Castle Christmas card.
96

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 04/11/2009 22:35:22
Still time to dig the lot up and concrete in the holes.
97

COMMANDER DAN DARE, SPEX & THE MEKON,

We are up, up & away, in ooter space, far oot.... 04/11/2009 22:39:27
Does Mandy Havering-Piffle do (sleight of hand) tricks, or is she a stand-up comedienne? She is funny.

On the other hand, Jenny Blaw appears tragically disconnected from reality. Like the imbeciles at TIE, from top to bottom.

What a bunch!
98

COMMANDER DAN DARE, SPEX & THE MEKON,

A vantage point, high up in ooter space... 04/11/2009 22:42:05
What is that loopy person David Mackay doing at TIE? What is he being paid? Is TIE overstaffed? With numpties.
99

COMMANDER DAN DARE, SPEX & THE MEKON,

Tram control to Line 1..... 04/11/2009 22:44:12
Come in Tram Control... For God's sake, come in!
100

Julian.,

edinburgh 04/11/2009 22:59:33

Thomas Tank,

Where exactly would you have had the tram go if not Princes Street? Virtually every bus and tram goes/went along there.

I partially agree with your point about the waterfront. It does have a bit of a communist house planning whiff about it. But when it was initiated there was a logic to it as well. A growing population and a lack of spare land to build new homes on coupled with the decline of commerce in Leith meant there were very few other options.

 

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