Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

The hunt is On.
Sponsored by
Can you track down Scotland's wildest beastie?
 
 
Friday, 9th January 2009

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Edinburgh Evening News site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

New road bridge: 'It would be a major climbdown to use tolls'



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 07 June 2008
THE Scottish Government's failure to spell out how they are going to pay for the new Forth Road Bridge is predictably causing growing concern.
Before they were elected the SNP were clear the new crossing would be financed through the issue of bonds under their proposed Scottish Futures Trust. But despite the launch of the SFT last month, ministers are now staying tight-lipped about how the
estimated £4 billion bill for the new bridge will be met.

The bonds idea no longer seems a viable option and the Scottish Government does not have the power to issue bonds itself. Although the SNP has talked of councils – which do have such power – combining to fund major projects, there are questions over the legality of local authorities being involved in bond issues for schemes which do not fall within their own remit.

The Government might opt for the "non-profit distributing" funding model, another aspect of the Scottish Futures Trust, which critics claim is really no different from the private finance initiative which the SNP pledged to end.

But the Liberal Democrats are claiming the SNP might even decide to bring back bridge tolls to pay at least part of the cost of the new bridge.

They claim ministers have avoided ruling out tolls altogether by saying only the proposal for funding the bridge will not be "based on tolling".

It would be a major political climbdown, not to say humiliation, if the SNP had to resort to tolls to finance the new bridge when the party made such a big issue of abolishing the charges on the existing crossing.

But the fact is that scrapping the tolls – one of the SNP's first acts in government – was premature in that the revenue from continuing the charges would have helped towards the cost of the new bridge.

Finance Secretary John Swinney has said the funding details for the bridge will be set out "later this year" – but the delay suggests ministers are not clear themselves how they are going to pay for it. And with such a massive engineering project, which the SNP itself has argued is needed urgently, that has to be a worry.

The Government is already in trouble over the estimated £420m cost of its pledge to cut class sizes and, despite promising to continue the school building programme, it has told Edinburgh there will be no more money for new schools.

Alex Salmond and his colleagues are beginning to discover policy pledges are one thing – paying the bills is another.





The full article contains 434 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 June 2008 10:52 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Forth Bridges
 
1

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/06/2008 11:41:31
The SNP are slowly coming unstuck as their easy choices have been made and the time for difficult and potentially unpopular decisions has arrived. We'll see how well they deal with having to face up to that responsibility. If they behave as they have done up till now expect a raft of excuses and blame thrown at everybody but themselves.
Their compulsive need to blame others is one of the more unappealing characteristics of this nationalist administration. It is a tactic which is becoming a leitmotif of Mr Salmond, a smug, snearing man at the best of times, who will pay for the empty promises made before the election which are gradually being revealed as the cruel hoax they are as policy after policy unravels.
2

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 07/06/2008 12:07:18
1 Grahamski,Falkirk

1. The United Kingdom hold the purse for Scotland.

2. Labour are the current United Kingdom Government who despise the Nationalists.

3. The difference between Scottish Labour and the Scottish Nationals is that the Scottish Labour Party will continue to look over their shoulders to see if Westminister approves of them.

4. Take your pick. Labour who has failed policies (10p Tax, Terr suspects 40day, mass debts etc etc). Or the Conservatives who currently have no policies to go by but from the last time they were in power which turned out to see mass unemployment and huge decline of Industries in Scotland.





3

abcd,

Edinburgh 07/06/2008 12:21:08
I'm interested by this idea that local authorities don't have the power to work with the Government on this.

What happened to the power to promote well-being that was included in the Community Planning legislation? That was billed as a general power for local government to do anything they believed was in the interests of their area and wasn't specifically forbidden by other legislation. Of course maybe this is specifically forbidden by other legislation!

Any chance of someone who knows what they're talking about answering this? Oops, I forgot, this is the Scotsman . . .
4

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/06/2008 12:30:16
2.
So it's the Labour Party's fault that the SNP made promises they couldn't honour? Or is it our Westminster parliament's fault that the SNP advocated a series of policies thay can't deliver? Or both perhaps?
What you seem to be sure of is that it's not the SNP's fault, good gracious no, so it must either be Labour or England, right?
I just wonder how long this buck-passing will last...
5

geekpie,

forfar 07/06/2008 12:53:59
I can't see the tartan tories charging a toll: they're scared ****less of the motorist.
6

ThomasP,

07/06/2008 13:04:39
4.

Then tell me. Who has told the SNP that if they move towards Local Income Tax then they will loose out on 400 million pounds? (which is actually encouraged by the EU)

Also tell me who actually does control the amount of money our Scottish Government takes in?

The SNP have fought for Scotlands corner and when the elections come the public will judge them on what they achieved and not by what they did not get.

Check the last Scottish Gov and you will see they never delivered their policies in full.
7

Richardinho,

07/06/2008 13:21:25
Tolls are simply a tax on the motorist. Not having tolls constitutes a tax cut. Tax cuts are proven to help the economy grow. A growing economy leads to a greater tax take. Taxes are used to fund projects like this.

Tolls are never going to pay for the entire cost of the bridge.

With the sky rocketing cost of oil, Scotland has enough money to pay for such projects, but it seems that Westminster is controlling the purse strings for the benefit of the Labour party, not for the benefit of Scotland.

8

S'me,

Edinburgh 07/06/2008 13:34:06
These headlines could have been written a year ago. It was all so obvious the SNP s short term, populist policies would end in tears... Now... I wonder who they will blame now... I wonder...
9

subrosa,

07/06/2008 13:37:27
What's wrong with this paper? For months the Scottish government have said they will be providing details of the funding of the bridge later in the year.

This is all propaganda. Nothing at all to do with facts.

I trust our present government to get the best deal possible for the country. Their hands are tied but still they'll come up with something better than we would have expected from the libdums/nulab lot.
10

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 07/06/2008 13:46:37
Not if it was named THE INDEPENDENCE BRIDGE.

Stupid article based on speculation.
11

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/06/2008 13:47:54
4
Thomas,
I think you'll find that the present administration has fought the SNP's corner, not Scotland's corner, the two are not the same.
The nats made a series of promises to the electorate before the last election many of which have been ditched and even more have been discovered to be deeply flawed.
Again you seem to blame Westminster for the fact that the SNP's numbers regarding their ill-considered and potentially illegal national 'local' income tax don't add up. To attempt to blame others for the fact that Mr Swinney has a black hole approaching one billion pounds does seem a bit opportunist.
I see you are using the first ministersa idle boast that they have done more in the last year then previous adminstrations have in the last eight.
Let's count the schools ordered to be built under this administration, bearing in mind Mr Salmond bragged they would match Labour 'brick by brick'.
OK, have you finished counting yet? Shouldn't take you long, the answer is zero.
12

ThomasP,

07/06/2008 13:55:33
11 Grahamski.

If Local Income Tax was illegal then the courts should be left to decide so.

Westminister should keep out of Scottish Politics.

Yes you are keen to promote the difference that each Administration has taken to build schools.

Can you tell me how much it is costing the tax payer for these schools? Does it not run into tens of millions? and possible savings numbering in tens of millions if the projects were not given to private contactors?

Ah, I see these school children can pay the bill once they leave school. I now see the practibility because these children can now pay for these schools later in life.

Good job Labour.

Rising food prices and rising fuel prices were bad enough. Now the future can also pick up the bill for schools that could of been cheaper.
13

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/06/2008 14:15:00
12
Thomas,
There, you're getting the hang of it!
Sneer from the sidelines then when the spotlight goes on the SNP's failure to come up with a coherent policy to fund school building what do you do?
Oh yes, sneer from the sidelines....
and then come up with a policy which is more or less PPP.
In case you hadn't realised - the SNP intends to give their projects to..........
private contractors! Weird, eh? Considering the huge amount of self-righteus cant the nats have wasted decrying the private contractors' part in public developments...
weird indeed, or hypocritical, either works...
14

ThomasP,

07/06/2008 14:24:09
13 Grahamski.

Labour came up with PPP.

SNP perfected PPP and lauched the similar apart from certain differences, SFI was it not?

The SNP attempting to correct the last Governments policies and all you hear is moans and groans from the Labour MSP's

If the SNP did not win the election and Labour did then you would most likily be complaining at Labour for introducing all these policies.
15

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/06/2008 14:24:51
12
Oh, and if you seriously think that Mr Swinney will still be advocating his discredited national 'local' incoime tax by the time that it's anywhere near ready for a legal challenge then you are even more delusional than the average SNP supporter. The nats will have abandoned their LIT (blaming England, of course) long before they get anywhere near the courts...
16

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/06/2008 14:28:36
14
Sorry was I dreaming when I heard Mr Salmond et al ridicule the idea of private investment in public works? Didn't they scoff at that and say they would introduce the SFT, it would be easy and it would mean we wouldn't have companies making profit from public works?
I know I wasn't dreaming, I know they promised that.
Then when they took power they realised that they had been wrong all along. What do they do? Apologise and rather sheepishly admit that they'll carry on with the PPPs?
Nope they re-name PPPs and claim they meant that all along.
Aye right.
17

dude,

07/06/2008 14:30:38
,Falkirk 07/06/2008 14:15:00
12
Thomas,
There, you're getting the hang of it!
Sneer from the sidelines then when the spotlight goes on the SNP's failure to come up with a coherent policy to fund school building what do you do?
Oh yes, sneer from the sidelines....
and then come up with a policy which is more or less PPP.
In case you hadn't realised - the SNP intends to give their projects to..........
private contractors! Weird, eh? Considering the huge amount of self-righteus cant the nats have wasted decrying the private contractors' part in public developments...
weird indeed, or hypocritical, either works...

so who would you have build these schools, the local council, of course private company's will build the schools its how much money they get thats the problem, which is why there has to be another way.

18

subrosa,

07/06/2008 14:31:53
# 16

The SNP have no option other than use private companies. Who did away with public companies? Ah yes, the labour party with their 'value for money' policy. The only value for money they were interested in was the amount in the brown envelopes.
19

dude,

wishy 07/06/2008 14:33:18
the same goes for LIT the council tax is totally wrong in principal there must be another way when pensioners who have contributed all their lives now pay 25% of there weekly pension to council tax to stick up for this outrage you show yourself to be a greedy tory B
20

Jenny MacArthur,

07/06/2008 14:36:31
Can you polito hacks not actually discuss issues in more positive ways that the rest of us can connect with, rather than just slagging each other off like overgrown schoolkids. Yah, Labour smell! Nah nah, SNP are poos. Your level of debate is atrocious. That's why no one believes in politics any more.
21

ThomasP,

07/06/2008 14:38:15
Grahamski.

Westminister said that LIT was unfair because the rest of Britain would have to pay council tax.

Then they said that they would hold back 400 million of Scottish funding.

and then they said it was illegal and could not happen anyway.

Now what seems to be the bother here? Westminister are annoyed that the Nats are doing something good for Scotland and are attempting to pull out all the stops.

Aye and you can continue to pay for PPP but the rest of Scotland who are already being kicked in the nuts for food and energy bills do not want their children to pay even more bills later in life.

Use your common sense man. You cannot properly justify Labours expensive PPP scheme and see that it is a benefit to Scotland.

Unless you are one of those who have more money then sense and you do have money growing from trees in your garden?

Can you not stop to think that the average joe may not be able to cope with the tax rises to pay for all this in future?
22

livilion,

livingston 07/06/2008 15:08:32
16 Grahamski,
I think if you take the time to look you will find that the SNP ridiculed the credit card approach to funding public works.

Like those shops on the high street where you can buy anything at a fiver a week for the rest of your life and then find you owe more than the debt you started with.
PPPs are discredited because invariably they produce lesser quality works which have a shorter usefull life with the emphasis on providing dividends to shareholders.
There is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode on local authorities paying ppp and pfi bills when the time comes to have to replace these projects and they still have to pay off the original debts.

In my own area the people of Bathgate have had a new school built by the developers of brownfield housing as part of their permission to exploit the old car plant land, at no cost to the local authority.

How many new schools eg could be built at the same time as say tramways or shopping developments as part of the deal for the development companies?
23

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/06/2008 15:11:32
21
Thomas, you wrote:
'Westminister said that LIT was unfair because the rest of Britain would have to pay council tax.

The Westminster govt expressed concerns about the billion pound hole in Mr Swinney's arithmetic. Yvette Cooper noted: This would have a serious impact on local council services across Scotland.

Then they said that they would hold back 400 million of Scottish funding.

Westminster will not be holding back any 'Scottish' funding. I take it you mean the CTB, a UK-wide benefit paid to make Council tax fairer. Without council tax the CTB is unnecessary.

and then they said it was illegal and could not happen anyway.

Westminster was hardly alone in raising the issue of legality - Professor Richard Kerley, a local government expert from Queen Margaret University, has highlighted legal problems and has argued the Scotland Act may make the SNP's fixed rate local income tax unconstitutional because it would be a national tax.

Nobody argues that private companies should profiteer. What is galling is when the SNP claim that private money is unnecessary when they are in opposition then change their mind when they are in power.
Hypocrisy, that's what it's called....
24

livilion,

livingston 07/06/2008 15:13:40
16 Grahamski,
Sorry I meant to mention the Forth Road Bridge, built in the sixties by the bidder who produced the lowest tender.
My old Maw says you aye get what you pay for and don't get what you won't pay for. I reckon my old Maw could've told those guys taking the bids a thing or two.
As I say here is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode on local authorities paying ppp and pfi bills when the time comes to have to replace these projects and they still have to pay off the original debts.
Pay cheap pay twice.
25

livilion,

livingston 07/06/2008 15:21:12
23 Grahamski
Profit is how businesses survive, profiteering is how businesses rip off their customers.
One is normal business practice the other is robbery.

The difference between the Labour model and the SNP model is that under Labour the profits go to shareholders and property developers(party donors?) with no stake in the community, with the SNP the profits are channeled directly back into the community.
You work out who looks after the electorate's interests most efficiently.
26

livilion,

livingston 07/06/2008 15:37:23
With all the new bridges in and around London why has there never been any suggestion that there should be tolls there?
The Skye bridge and the new high tech pedestrian bridge to London's South Bank cost about the same to build and were built around the same, but imfamously one had the highest tolls in Europe in a recognised area of deprivation, the other one of the most affluent areas in Europe, no charge.

Where's the fairness in that?
27

ThomasP,

07/06/2008 16:11:52
Grahamski.

Course.

You have a reason for why Labour has attempted to stop the SNP at every turn.

Are you one of the Labour Activist's who support Labour right or wrong?

Everyone can accept that the SNP are attempting to make the way Scotland is Governed fairer for all and also hoping to save each Scot some cash.

They may not be doing great through your eyes because your to much up Labours behind to see but least the are trying.

Can you imagine another four years of sky high council tax, more schools being built which are incredinly expsensive (despite some schools being half full in some areas) and of course to top it off you have to cope with the rising costs of energy and food?

Jeez. If you can let Labour get away with that type of Governing then you must be every salesman dream
28

,

07/06/2008 16:45:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 07/06/2008 17:27:24
The only ones mentioning tolls are the LibDems and they are so irrelevant that a response would be waste of time. A lot like most of the stories in this newspaper.
30

walter,

07/06/2008 17:59:17
We know from the most recent UK budget that the Comprehensive Spending Review will
allocate an additional £1.8 billion to the Scottish block.
The Scottish budget process for 2007-08 is well under way and there is only limited room for
manoeuvre. However, with anticipated underspends of £200 million and a Scottish reserve
of unallocated money worth some £800 million, there is a pool of potential available resources
of £1 billion for next year.

The above is from the SNP manifesto, they knew how much they had to spend.
They also knew if they scrapped the council tax then the money from CT benefits would cease and that they did not have the power to stop the trams yet they calculated the money from both these to spend on other things, money they did not and knew they did not have.
The Scottish parliament could not sell bonds for the previous 8 years so why did the SNP not know this.
The only people responsible for the SNP's problems with financing projects are the SNP.
31

Publius,

Girvan 07/06/2008 18:32:56
#26 livilion

You are wrong about London - and the rest of England.

The only road crossing near London similar to the Forth Road Bridge is the Dartford Crossing (bridge one way, tunnel the other) where the M25 crosses the Thames downstream of London. The Dartford Crossing has always had a toll. Other tolls on main roads in England/Wales are the M4 over the Severn, the Mersey Tunnel at Liverpool, the Tyne Tunnel near Newcastle.

Making the user pay is a good way of financing bridges. Sooner or later the Scottish government will find out that it had made a mistake in abolishing tolls.




32

ThomasP,

07/06/2008 19:44:58
AM2.

I was currently talking about PPP. PPP is already expensive and I am sure everyone can appreciate the attempt the SNP has attempted to find a solution before it goes out of control.

SFI until it actually fails is an alternative that should be tried and hopefully it works as it is suppose to.

Either that or we continue as we are and overpaying by tens of millions of pounds for our children to pick up the bill for in future.

That is the current situation.
33

Yankee girl,

USA 07/06/2008 20:30:35
We're tried a couple of PPPs in the US but they're not widely used. I've read elsewhere on the Scotsman that PPPs are considered to be an option that is too expensive, i.e., takes advantage of the Scottish taxpayer and the PFI is therefore a cheaper option. If it's cheaper then that must mean the private entity doesn't make as much money. So why should they bother? This is all very murky and confusing to me.
34

cheuchtar,

07/06/2008 20:43:49
Let's get the damn bridge and then argue about tolls.
35

D Napier,

07/06/2008 21:00:59
AT the end of the day, tolling is the obvious solution and the sooner that the SNP and other realise this the better.

Virtually every long span bridge in the world is tolled. It is a model which works well elsewhere and which worked perfectly well at the Forth until the short sighted idiots in the SNP took hold of the reigns.

Today I drove behind a bus with an advaert on the rear for THE COURIER newspaper proclaiming that "together we scrapped the tolls". Just a pity it didn't say "together we made over 40 innocent people redundant". What a pity they didn't think about the staff who lost their jobs and the effects on their families.

The abolition of tolls on the existing bridge was short sighted. We paid a toll of £1 - virtually nothing compared to the level of tolling on the Severn and Humber Bridges. The tolls paid for the operation and onging maintenance of the bridge, and excess funds were used to fund transportation projrcts in the bridgehead area. The bridge authority were masters of their own destiny and were able to react to situations which arose and allocate funding accordingly without having to go cap in hand to central government.

We now have the situation where funding comes from a central source. Mark my words - maintenance of the existing bridge WILL suffer as a result of the removal of the tolls. Bureaucrats in central government will delay funding for maintenance works which will result in the works subsequently taking longer and causing more inconvenience to the travelling public.

The existing bridge will be with us for a long time to come. It will have to be, as there isn't a hope in hell of the new crossing being completed by 2016 as Messrs Salmond, Swinney and Stevenson would have us believe.
36

Yankee girl,

USA 07/06/2008 21:13:33
41 - D Napier, I agree with you on the tolls. I recognized that the abolition of them was politically motivated, but thought it was done too quickly.
37

ThomasP,

07/06/2008 21:30:59
D Napier.

Did come drivers not have to use the bridge for work purposes each day?

£1 per go really adds up.

The SNP could wait till their next budget then finish the bridge off.
38

D Napier,

07/06/2008 21:41:41
#43.

Forth Road Bridge was £1/day or less if you used the vouchers or e-tag.

By comparison:
Severn Bridge £5.30/day
Humber Bridge £5.40/day

£5 per week - you can't even get 2 pints of beer or a packet of cigarettes for that.

Also, as predicted by myself and plenty of others, the removal of the tolls has not meant a reduction in peak time congestion. The bridge has a finite capacity and that is exceeded every day during the peak. At least the tolls acted as a filter.

I, and I am a Fifer, look forward to the opening of the new, tolled bridge, sometime after 2016.
39

,

07/06/2008 22:20:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Richardinho,

07/06/2008 22:57:29
Supporters of PFI seem to be oblivious to the fact that eventually it will have to be paid for, and there have been many studies concluding that a lot of PFI projects will cost much more than if the govt had simply borrowed money to pay for them.

Much of the controversy about PFI has been around the fact that it allows the government to remove the borrowing off it's books, but it strikes me that this, whilst dishonest, is the least of the problems with it.
A far bigger problem is the paying off these things in the future. It all smells of 'jam and elections won today', and who gives a damn about tomorrow.
41

john z,

edinburgh 07/06/2008 23:20:18
Heck, who cares? At least they are going to build it - something which Libdem/Labour failed to do. Or has bendy wendy forgotten?

The wittering that goes on about this bridge is something to behold, and yet what we are talking about is possibly one of the most important pieces of Scottish infrastructure.

Maybe it would be better if all the nay-sayers from Labour shut up for a while, and accept the fact that whilst it may not be perfect, at least the SNP are getting on with the job, instead of whinging from the sidelines.
42

Nikostratos,

07/06/2008 23:57:53
Cant we blame the English Parliament..please


"Alex Salmond and his colleagues are beginning to discover policy pledges are one thing – paying the bills is another"
43

morris,

edinburgh 08/06/2008 00:10:29
It would be a major climb down? Firstly The Scottish government has not announced any change whatsoever,and until such time as they do, this is speculation at best.
Even if we accept that a change in funding
is inevitable as many have inferred,then this would be true of any government at Holyrood,so what the Unionists think they have achieved here Im not sure.
I know what they have achieved,but not what they think they have achieved!


Its still the case that oil rich wealthy Scotland is punished on grounds of topography and will continue to do so as long as we display this mentality!

Labour are history and thats already decided with no way back now.If the gap grows any bigger they wont even have enough seats to be the opposition!

Thats the reality of today and we had better explain to our village idiots that a Tory government is coming and its their numpty heads which are electing it!
Its make your mind up time Scotland, or in the case of people who still intend to vote New Labour ,wonder what it must be like to have a mind of your own !
44

morris,

edinburgh 08/06/2008 00:26:28
28
All bridges run in both directions and everybody who crosses benefits from the bridge.Otherwise they wouldn't cross!


Many of the Rosyth dockyard workforce live on the South side of the Forth Valley. Nearly all traffic going north ( apart from m74 traffic) will cross at Queensferry.I would argue that the skilled workforce who cross every day would make EDINBURGH the primary beneficiary!

Its part of Scotlands infrastructure every bit as much as the M8 is or the M74 or the A68/A1 .
Fortunately we had the foresight to bring Edinburgh to a partial standstill whil we install a tramline where a bus already runs at a huge cost.A bigger misuse of funds would only be possible if we really used our imaginations(and I cant think of one).But Im sure Wendys bunch of dunderheids can!
45

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 08/06/2008 00:28:55
With OIL at $139 and rising and the Union mountain sliding slowly into the sea, I don't think funding the bridge will be a problem. The UK government will be throwing money at us the more it appears that we are going to vote for Independence.

As it's our money we'll take it, then vote YES.
46

livilion,

livingston 08/06/2008 00:31:57
41 D Napier
Taxing poorer road users off the roads to make way for those who can afford Chelsea tractors is not a worthy solution to funding of transport infrastructure projects. That was what we were conned into believing the Road Fund licence was for.

Road building and maintenance is heavily overfunded in the UK through the 'Road Fund' Licence (gettit?)£5bn a year, and through excise on fuel of about £30bn a year, whereas all transport in the UK only recieves about £16bn a year in return.

I really object to giving the government £20bn a year to pi$$ up a wall for them to then come and say by the way if you want a new road or bridge we're gonna charge you everytime you want to use it in order to keep it clear for those who can afford to use them.

Members of my family were involved in testing the fabric of the original Severn Crossing when it was discovered to have terminal concrete cancer 25 years ago.
When it was also found to have corrosion in its cables the alarm went out to suspension bridge operators across the world, including the Forth.
The replacement Severn Crossing has been open for about a decade now while some poor benighted souls are still argueing that the Forth Road Bridge doesn't even have a problem, never mind commissioning a replacement.
Maggie Thatcher FCS even conceded that the FRB needed replaced during her time in office, it was Labour who sidelined it.
Remember Joke McConnell suggesting that he would consider it if he was re-elected First Minister when confronted by the date proposed to shut the bridge to commercial traffic?
47

livilion,

livingston 08/06/2008 00:53:15
44 D Napier
For a start the tolls on the FRB were on the wrong side.
Stopping and starting on the upgrade towards Fife is hugely more fuel inefficient and creates unneccesary added polution from vehicles accelerating uphill from rest, back to motorway cruising, which is the most fuel efficient and least polluting mode to use modern engines.
On overrun on a downgrade modern engines use no fuel and emit no fumes, surely the objective of all transport planners, let alone the FRB operators, for this reason alone I'm happy saying goodby to tolls on the Forth.

The reason that congestion is still happening at peak times is because they are still restricting traffic while they remove the tollbooth facilities.

At other times during high winds operators of high sided vehicles still choose to ingore diversion signs to the Kincardine crossing twenty miles upstream and cause chaos when they foul up the dual carriageway on the approaches. Shame no-one would stump up for a decent hard shoulder for such eventualities.
48

livilion,

livingston 08/06/2008 01:14:21
41 D Napier,
>>Mark my words - maintenance of the existing bridge WILL suffer as a result of the removal of the tolls.<<
Wasn't it the Scottish parliament that funded the completion of the approach roads to the bridge, forty years after it opened to traffic?

If it hadn't been for the problems on the Severn Bridge then the FRB operators first realisation that they had a cable problem might have been the Forth Road Bridge Disaster of 2014 when it was about due for its first routine fifty year maintenance service as recommended by the bridge's manufacturer Sir Wm Arrol &Co.
A bridge supposed to last 150 years having to be replaced after forty? Aye that's some maintenance record to suffer!
49

D Napier,

08/06/2008 06:16:47
#53. The toll removal work has finished and the congestion problem remains.

#54. THe problems with cable corrosion were discovered firts at Forth and not Severn. Severn only decided to check their cables once the problems at Forth had been identified.

First 50 year routine maintenance - what a load of rubbish - the bridge receives constant maintenance.
50

livilion,

livingston 08/06/2008 15:23:41
#55 D Napier,
Deja Vu or what?

The bridge recieves constant maintenance now, that was not the case before the cable problems came to light on the Severn Bridge.
I invite you to check the chronology of events for yourself seeing as you once again remind us that you are so well qualified in this field.
>>>45 livilion,livingston 24/02/2007 12:41:29
38. DaveR, Dalgety Bay

The Forth Road bridge, I'm sure I read last November, was scheduled for inspection every 25 years.
Whether it needed one or not.

The discovery of corrosion in the cables of the Severn Bridge brought this forward.

I'm not sure that the condition of the cables was even considered prior to this.

The reason the corrosion problem came to light was due to the major inspections done on the first Severn Bridge, as a result of it's cronic and terminal concrete cancer.

Much of the technical work was performed by the former National Engineering Laboratory at East Kilbride where my father was a scientific officer.

There is every possibility, had the Severn Bridge not succumbed to concrete cancer then, that the Forth Road bridge might actually have failed catastrophically before the time of it's next, 50 year, inspection.

Whereupon the Scottish New Labour Leader would, in all probability, have commissioned an investigation to determine if the bridge had indeed fallen down, why it fell down, what provision for life rafts and bouyancy aids in the event of further disaster might be required, whether or not a new crossing might be required, what kind of crossing, where to have one if we did, and a full and thorough tendering process to take into consideration all of these findings, after a full parliamentary revue and debate.
The decision to be made public after the outcome of the next election.<<<
51

firhill,

08/06/2008 19:45:19
~56

You are wrong. As a recent ex-Manager at the Forth, I can tell you that the Forth was the first outside America to do an intrusive cable investigation following the FRB's input to the conference which kicked off the professional engineering code for cable inspections.

The Forth'[s groundbreaking work was used by both the Humber and Severen bridges (and they were both charged by the Forth for using the techniques developed by the FRB- fact!).

I have no axe to grind having left the bridge and moved on but I really will never understand the Scottish public's never ending appetite to slag things off, especially public sector (I have worked roughly half my carrer in public and private sectors).

The truth is that you should respect the pro-active and world -leading work before it's shifted to a cheapo consortium then you'd be greeting about why Bear/Amey arent bothering to maintain the bridge. Personally, even though I don't use it, I have respect for the staff who mainatain it 365 x 24 hr.

Livilion- you haven't a clue what you're talking about and this comes from a non-engineer. I billed the Severn for our analysis work which they used as a basis for their retrospective cable work so you're barking up the wrong tree here and I can guarantee you the Forth took a workd l;eading position on cable investigations.
52

,

08/06/2008 22:03:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

livilion,

livingston 09/06/2008 09:53:58
57 firhill
Who carried out the investigation work? The NEL.

The NEL were conducting tests on the Severn Bridge from the 70's and very early 80's. My brother worked for RMC and would share horror stories with my father about civil engineering projects riddled with concrete cancers and corrosion.
Not everything the NEL did was made public.

What prompted the investigation into the condition of the cables in the first place. Were you dandering across the bridge one day and heard one of the cable strands ping?

The problems on the Severn were hushed up for years before they had to admit defeat and commission the Second Severn Crossing.
It was the UK who also alerted the Golden Gate Bridge operators in the US to check their cables. Remedial work there has now been completed long ago, together with quake proofing of the entire structure.
Curious don't you think that it is the FRB that has still to be treated seeing as that was where the issue was first discovered.
54

D Williams,

Looking accross the Forth to the enemy.....Fifers 09/06/2008 15:25:11
Ah, Mr Napier, the spokesman for all Fifer' working in Edinburgh and the cause of much grief for Ferry folk.

Preferred Option: Bring back the tolls and charge Fifers £100 each time they want to go "south" - there, congestion sorted.


Option 2: Close the A90 to all bridge traffic and divert them to use the M90-spur to travel to Edinburgh (and return).

Let Queensferry return to a peaceful place to live.....
55

firhill,

10/06/2008 06:36:30
The work on the Forth followed the development of the first ever engineering code into cable investigations and the study was commissioned off the back off this.

It is nonsense to say that this was anything to do with the Severn. They used the same private contractor AFTER the Forth completed their works and were charged for the techniques used.

The problem the highways agency have is that the Forth went first and raised concerns about corrossion when the condition of the Severn cables is much worse.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.