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Tuesday, 24th November 2009

Refund plan casts doubt over new Forth bridge

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Published Date: 16 September 2009
DOUBTS about whether a new Forth crossing will be built have emerged after the Scottish Government said it wants to introduce a cashback scheme for companies who bid to build the bridge.
In evidence to Holyrood's finance committee yesterday, civil servants asked MSPs to agree to an unprecedented money-back guarantee for businesses in the event that the £2 billion project does not go ahead.

The government wants to be able to pay back up to £10 million of a successful bidder's tendering costs if the project falls through and £5m back to each of the failed tenderers.

But the request prompted questions from MSPs as to why such a contingency would be needed unless there were doubts about the project's viability.

MSPs on the committee have now demanded that transport minister Stewart Stevenson appear in person to explain why a financial parachute for bridge companies would be required.

The Forth Bridge is the first project in the ten-year history of devolution in Scotland where such "contingency liability" has been requested. Other high-profile transport projects, such as the M74 extension and the Borders rail line, had no such clause.

The Scottish Government last night insisted that in asking for contingency liability, it was following Treasury guidelines for major projects.

But the move has prompted growing questions over whether the Scottish Government will be able to complete the complex project, given the current financial constraints. The SNP administration has asked the Treasury if it can borrow against future spending, but this was rejected. SNP ministers have said they will find the money, but have not specified from where.

Civil servants yesterday claimed that contingency liability was required as legislation had not been passed yet to allow the project to go ahead.

However, committee members pointed out that every MSP in Holyrood, except the two Greens, support the bridge, which is being built because of long-term concerns about the viability of the existing one. This means that there is no doubt about the necessary legislation being passed by parliament.

Further doubt was created after MSPs were told that there were 39 expressions of interest in the project but, without the contingency liability, there might only be one or even none.

Afterwards, committee members said that the move by the Scottish Government made it clear there were doubts about the project.

Labour MSP Jackie Baillie told The Scotsman: "This request has to be taken in the context of the confusion over the finances of the bridge. It is unprecedented and sends out a message that ministers believe it might not happen."

Liberal Democrat finance spokesman Jeremy Purvis said: "This is an indication of the lack of confidence within the Scottish Government about being able to handle this project and that they believe it might not happen at all.

"If it is meant as an incentive for companies to bid, the behaviour of the Scottish Government does not help to build up confidence in the project."

There was so much doubt about the request that a member of the governing party, Linda Fabiani of the SNP, moved the motion for the issue to be brought back next week.

During the committee hearing, Ainslie McLaughlin, the director of major transport and infrastructure projects at the government agency Transport Scotland, explained: "Ministers are seeking approval from parliament for reimbursement of bidders' costs in the event that the contract for the Forth replacement crossing doesn't go ahead, either because of failure of the bill or a further collective decision of the Scottish Government not to proceed with the contract."

Pointing to an article in yesterday's Scotsman reporting City of Edinburgh Council doubts over the project, he claimed coverage in the media was putting tenderers off. He said also that previously cancelled projects, such as the M8 extension in 1997, were a factor.

John Howison, project director for the Forth replacement crossing at Transport Scotland, told MSPs: "The information we have leads us to believe that we are not secure in getting a competition, or even necessarily a single bidder, without making this commitment to meet these costs on this contingency basis."

Concerns about the bridge were raised earlier this week by the Edinburgh local authority. It had asked for the project to be delayed so that money could be prioritised on other major transport schemes.

A spokesman for the Scottish Government said that it would "deliver a new Forth Crossing on time and on budget using our own resources by 2016 at a cost of between £1.7 and £2.3 billion".

He added: "This is a world-class, prestigious project and these standard industry provisions will ensure we maximise competition."

Crossing row

A ROW over the Firth of Forth has broken out on the need to progress with a replacement road bridge.

Alan Russell, Chief Executive of Fife's Chamber of Commerce has hit out at comments from Edinburgh City Council suggesting that the bridge should be delayed.

"This is a completely ridiculous, very short-sighted and insular viewpoint that does not take into account the fact that the new Forth bridge is a vital project for Scotland's infrastructure and a lifeline for businesses and residents north of the Forth," he said.




Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 September 2009 12:14 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Forth Bridges
 
1

Justin Timbercake,

15/09/2009 23:09:22
What happened to the much vaunted Scottish Futures Trust and how come it is not being used to build the bridge as previously suggested by Swinney and Salmond?

Or is the Scottish Futures Trust just a cruel joke that Salmond has been playing on the Scottish public?
2

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/09/2009 00:08:14
The M74 and the Borders rail line are not good examples of how to organise a project. The SNP is engaging with the scottish civil service some of whom don't reckon they give a good service to Scotland. It's important to have open debate before even more money disappears into public enquiries and consultants' reports.
3

,

16/09/2009 15:14:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

16/09/2009 15:30:44
“Concerns about the bridge were raised earlier this week by the Edinburgh local authority. It had asked for the project to be delayed so that money could be prioritised on other major transport schemes”


Is this the same Edinburgh local authority which was responsible from the tram project, spent millions on the failed road pricing project and even more millions on an abortive city centre road management programme?


5

HughB,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 15:35:00
This is what happens when a "foreign" power has control of our finances and resources.

Simple solution to all of this nonsense which is holding Scotlands development back.
6

Ewan Randall,

16/09/2009 15:45:08

Is it not true that this Scottish government has been in favour of funding projects such as the new Forth crossing from the public purse and against such means as PFI/PPP even before taking office in 2007?

Is it not also true that this Scottish government prior to them taking office knew of the need for a new Forth crossing?

Is it not also true that this Scottish government prior to them taking office were keen to pursue the building of a new Forth crossing?

Is it not also true that this Scottish government prior to them taking office knew that the Scottish Cabinet had backed plans to build a new bridge or a tunnel across the Firth of Forth?

Why then did this Scottish government choose the Edinburgh Tram project over the new Forth crossing when they got into power?

Out of the new Forth crossing and the Edinburgh Tram project which would have been considered as being the priority?

Is it not the case this Scottish government prior to taking office were vehemently opposed to the Edinburgh Tram project?

If when you get into office and you are faced with choosing between two projects and one is a clear priority over the other and the other is a project you vehemently opposed in opposition what would you consider being the logic outcome?

Is it not true that a project such as the new Forth crossing could have given this Scottish government the ideal opportunity and excuse to shelve the Edinburgh Tram project they vehemently opposed?

Which project if picked would have almost guaranteed conflict with the Westminster government?

Is it not true that you could only reasonably confront Westminster on funding over a priority project and not one that could have been shelved?

Is it not possible then that this Scottish government chose the Edinburgh Tram project over that of the new Forth crossing because it gave them a reasonable chance of creating conflict?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6359665.stm

http://www.sc
7

Ewan Randall,

16/09/2009 15:47:04
Though this method of funding might be considered to be ideal under normal circumstances where budgetary parameters are tight, where does it fit in when cuts to a budget have been predicted?

Would you not have to consider further cuts to services to bring about funds to pay back any company who might take on this project?

If you believe there might be too many pressures on services already do you try to renegotiate existing contracts on existing projects so to free enough money to make paying back these companies tempting enough for them to buy into the scheme?

Is it not the case that if this type of funding scheme had been put into place when this Scottish government first got into power then we wouldn’t have had the friction between Holyrood and Westminster over funding?

Is it not also the case that this bridge scheme could have already got under way if this type of funding scheme had been put into place when this Scottish government first got into power?

Will John Swinney be explaining where he will be expecting to get hold of the money to pay for this funding scheme for the bridge when outlining his prospective budget?

Can he actually do this before there is any interest in this funding scheme from construction firms wishing to build the bridge?

Might he not be caught in a catch 22 situation with this funding, where he can’t budget for the future until there is interest shown in the funding scheme and contract for the bridge, and he can’t generate interest in the scheme until he is able to show he has budgeted for it?

May the solution lie in trying to extend the contract held by the construction firm building the Edinburgh Tram scheme to incorporate the bridge too?

Could this not reduce the chance of the catch 22 situation taking place and cut down on delays in starting and completing the project?


8

Traquìr,

Alba 16/09/2009 15:49:55
Perhaps the SNP should just put a request into the British Treasury and get get the money from contingency reserves. This would appear to be England's newest form of raiding method and of course if you take from the contingency reserve even although it exclusively from the use of England the rules can be 'interpreted' that there are no Barnett Consequential. Basically a neat accounting trick to con Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland from what they are rightfully due.

£1.2 billion taken from Reserve for English Prisons

see - tinyurl.com/ln83am

£14 billion taken from Reserve for British Wars

see - tinyurl.com/bmvhmd

£2.7 billion taken from Reserve for the London Olympics (and most of that has been used already)

see - tinyurl.com/njtxbt

Another £3 billion for the London Olympics purely to benefit England in terms of regenerating the East End Of London.

Even a Labour Lord recognizes that this is "English expenditure – with knock-on benefits for Scotland."

see - tinyurl.com/plswra

Yep very convenient that the England dominated Britain creates and interprets the rules to suit themselves. If only Scotland had a magic piggy bank that we could dip into for the odd billion without any consequence.
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 16:06:58

Its all getting beyond a Joke!, millions here, millions there, for a crossing of less than 1.5miles, not a million miles may I add!
Bring back the ferries, problem Solved!






10

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

16/09/2009 16:11:28
Perhaps someone from Edinburgh Council could explain the benefit to the city from the millions spent on the “guided busway system” in the Broomhouse area of the city?

No buses run on this road, in fact no traffic at all runs on this road!

Yet they deem to express an opinion on major transport projects!


11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 16:19:33

~10.

Ah!, the now 'Ghost Road', perhaps cyclists could use it when they become un-taxed, when they refuse to pay the new wanted cyclist tax revenue.

12

DGammie,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 16:25:56
To No.6 Ewan Randall.

Is it not true that the previous administration committed to the edinburgh tram project?

Is it not true that the snp as one of the first acts of their administration was to attempt to vote down the edinburgh tram project to proivde funding for higher priority projects
and
Is it not true that they were defeated in that motion by the parliment.

rather than just writing a pile or rhetoric try finding out the facts...
13

DGammie,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 16:28:02
Justin Timbercake.

Some life you must have waiting around for the next days news to be posted online so you can reply first...

Also, nowhere in that article is the iissue of funding discussed (futures trust or otherwise) yet you find reason to highlight that. why?

14

DGammie,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 16:34:06
#10 that would be the same bit of road that the 22 bus runs along
15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 16:38:29

~14.

Yes the 'Hands Free' Road!, now is that not marvelous?

16

DGammie,

16/09/2009 16:44:52
Ingenious, if all roads could be the same
17

Charles Linskaill,

From the mobile 16/09/2009 16:49:05

~16.

Soo Ingenious it was abandoned!
:)

18

Warden Resurrected,

16/09/2009 16:53:47
Traquìr
8 – So sayeth the word of nationalist economics. Rob Peter to pay Paul, priceless. Remember the credit crunch Einstein, one institution bailing out another institution until when the first could not pay up we witnessed the domino effect. I see your contingency is a well honed selective memory. Try this on for good measure, the Scottish nationalist government was telling everyone who wanted to hear it was impossible for the bridge to be built unless extra money was forthcoming, right. Now we have this new funding idea plucked out of the blue. Which personality was right, the mister angry we can’t do anything else unless we get more money personality, or the new wait it is possible to do more with what we’ve got though inspired personality.
Read the story again, its going to hit you between the eyes any month now.
Who would think a British government would make the rules to run Britain, how could this happen!!! Hold on one second…it’s what national governments do, oh yes.
19

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

16/09/2009 16:55:56
14 DGammie,

No, neither the No, 22 nor any other bus now use that route.

The road is closed to all traffic and has been for some time.

The next time you see a No. 22 bus, ask yourself why it is now no longer a single decker, but is now of the double-decked variety, capable of carrying more passengers, however, of less frequency.
20

DGammie,

16/09/2009 16:59:21
#17 so Ingenious that sarcasm fails to register.
So it failed, but that does not prevent edinburgh city council from being perfectly legitimate in its desire to express opinion (good or otherwise) on major transport projects. As it was an experiment at the time into the viabilty of the system you could look at it as a success in that no more money was spent on it.
21

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

16/09/2009 17:12:03
20 DGammie,


No doubt you could view matters in the manner you describe, but only if you were a balloon.
22

DGammie,

16/09/2009 17:13:59
#19
I was unaware of that, last time I was out that way it was still functioning. I stand corrected. The reason it is closed though is that the tram is due to utilise the stretch of road. So a use afterall.

My understanding as to why the 22 was now a double decker was quite simply to save on driver costs, why pay 2 when 1 can do the job with a bigger bus. Were you going to inform me otherwise

23

DGammie,

16/09/2009 17:19:24
#21
I'm playing devils advocate here, initialy this (busway road) was brought into the discussion as a reason why edinburgh city council had no right to an opinion(right or otherwise)about the new bridge. I did say 'you' could look at it in that way, not i look at it in this way. However these new technologies(as it was at the time) have to be tested somewhere..
24

TWC,

exLabour 16/09/2009 17:26:28
Maybe we have to shelve the bridge and trident butthe STUC should remember that when the Block Grant is impacted by this £500 Milllion that the allcation will be the base for the Tories to use for the next 10 years when they finance Scotland.

They will use thsis statement that there has not really been a cut when they allocate the grant next year and every year for a generation, whoever is the Holyrood Government.
SLAB need to get with the nats and demand that Holyrood gets it's full grant and thereafter the Parties at Holyrood will decide what savings can be made.
This is a no win situation for Public Sector jobs.
25

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

16/09/2009 17:27:38
22 DGammie,


Here is a wee bit of gratuitous advice.


Restrict your comments to be upon subjects you have some knowledge of.


Otherwise you will appear to be somewhat of a clown.

26

DGammie,

16/09/2009 17:30:36
take your own advice
balloons/clowns, think I know who comes from the circus
27

,

16/09/2009 17:35:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
28

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

16/09/2009 17:44:57
26 DGammie,


Better to have been “circus” educated than not to have learned at all.

What is your excuse?
29

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/09/2009 18:05:34
It's a big project but not huge by EU reckoning. Most freight moves by road (as unlike Europe we have a joke railway network) and a new bridge is required for it.

The SNP are trying to get the job done. The UK wants more consulatancy fees (any taker for the £16M report on how MG Rover was rubber ducked?), whereas Scottish people would just like to see this bridge built.
30

Ken S.,

Reading 16/09/2009 18:12:29

#27 spagan
"I presume that they have no intention of Scotland ever being more than a 'holiday home' in their futures?"

The Scottish electorate could change that at the next Westminster election.

Please
31

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 16/09/2009 18:48:38
They should have retained the services of the lady Civil Servant who managed to get Holyrood built! She knew how to manage finances! We are so lucky to have caring people in charge of our building projects! I wonder which company will get the money?
32

Soosider,

Glasgow 16/09/2009 19:26:36
Seems like sensible way of ensuring that bids are made by as many companies as possible.
However I am not sure that there is actually the need for a new bridge, as I recall the reason for a new one was that the old one could not be maintained. More recent information would tend to show that the remedial efforts to dry out the cables are having success, this being the case then the argument for another bridge disappears. Especially when you have to consider what other schemes would have to be delayed to allow the bridge one to go ahead.
33

Ewan Randall,

16/09/2009 20:13:08
(#12) – (DGammie) – Is it not true that the previous administration committed to both the new Forth crossing and the Edinburgh Tram Project?

What is your point in highlighting the previous administration’s commitment to the Edinburgh Tram Project?

Does the highlighting of the commitment to the Edinburgh Tram Project by the previous administration reduce the new forth crossing as a priority?

Does the highlighting of the commitment to the Edinburgh Tram Project by the previous administration show in any way a greater need for the Edinburgh Tram system over the new Forth Crossing?

Does the highlighting of the commitment to the Edinburgh Tram Project by the previous administration in any way show the intentions in expenditure of this Scottish government towards such projects?

Is it not true that even though the SNP voted against the Edinburgh Tram Project it could have vetoed the project and justified its decision to the parliament and the general public by both showing the new Forth crossing scheme as the priority and re stating their commitment to paying for such projects from the public purse and within budget?
34

Grahamski,

falkirk 16/09/2009 20:19:23
forget all the cybernats posturing...one question - why doesn't sft pay for this....
35

,

16/09/2009 20:37:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
36

Crusty Juggler,

16/09/2009 20:49:16
#37 - 'shameless and hypocritical' - well yea - thats's politicin' Phil - its just show business for the ugly people. But - we fall for it every time
37

Warden Resurrected,

16/09/2009 20:51:01
Spagan
27 – Traquìr’s point is to make the mundane into the fanciful and dress it up as conspiracy. National Government rules are dictated by National Government, it is the case wherever you go. No mystery there. In Scotland the Scottish budget is handled by the Scottish Government in England it is handled by the Westminster Government. Should it be any surprise when a national Government allocates anything, taking into consideration an area having their own devolved administrations and responsibilities. I have no time for new labour I am traditional labour but I do know they would have used PPP for the bridge, all you are doing is kidding yourself with the idea money would fly north on a whim, the devolved Government made sure the English started scrutinising what they see as advantages as we do with them. I have no time for Brown and Darling for selling out their traditional labour roots.
38

The Ghost of Sir William Arrol,

The Forthy Bridge 16/09/2009 20:57:40
The new road bridge is NOT needed, all the wishful thinking in the world can not escape the fact of peak oil and declining availability of oil supplies in the coming years. The existing bridge, even weakened as it is with corrosion, will be strong enough to support the declining levels of traffic until there are no more cars.

What is it that you people don't understand about the words 'finite resource'?
39

Frank Galvin,

16/09/2009 21:08:48
How come comments were not being accepted for nearly fifteen hours on this thread?
40

Warden Resurrected,

16/09/2009 21:09:22
I’m pretty sure shoes which aren’t cared for deteriorate much faster than those which are cared for. The forth road bridge wasn’t cared for as it should.
41

Warden Resurrected,

16/09/2009 21:11:55
Frank Galvin
41-I'm sure if you wait a few minutes the conspiracy theories will be flying all over the place.
42

Warden Resurrected,

16/09/2009 21:20:28
Traquìr where are you, Frank wants his answer.
43

mr broon,

Edinburgh 16/09/2009 21:28:02
According to the New Civil Engineer(NCE)journal, companies and consortiums are queuing up to bid for the Forth Replacement Crossing which, financially may not be one of the largest projects currently on offer, but is still considered to be one of the most prestigious projects in Europe.

In accordance with EU tendering rules, the FRC tender will soon be advertised in The Journal of the European Union.

Morgan Est, Balfour Beatty, BAM Nuttall, and VINCI Grand Projets Construction have already formed a consortium to bid for this contract.

The consortium, known as Forthspan, has already opened offices in Edinburgh and has begun forward planning and hope to become the preferred bidders.

Another consortium, like the M74 Interlink group comprised of Balfour Beatty, Morgan Est, Morrison Construction and Sir Robert McAlpine are currently completing the final length of the M74 motorway to Kingston Bridge, and may also be considered.

Civil engineering companies do not go to great expense
to form consortiums for major projects like the Forth Replacement Crossing unless they are totally committed to winning them.
44

Grahamski,

Falkirk 16/09/2009 21:28:03
44
Be patient!
You can't whip up crazy-daisy, freaky-deaky, nutty-nat conspiracy theories just like that you know. To do it properly takes time......
45

,

16/09/2009 22:04:52
Comment Removed By Administrator
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46

,

16/09/2009 22:13:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
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47

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

16/09/2009 22:51:19

44 Frank Galvin, 46 Grahamski,

Bad News day for New Labour...Brown caught telling porkies about proposed spending cuts - Unemployment at new 14 year high despite fiddled figures - Cabinet Minister caught employing illegal immigrants etc.etc.

Hootsmon might not want us to know stuff like that, but there are other papers you know.
48

Brianwci,

16/09/2009 23:00:38
#8 Traquir. More excellent research T. Thanks.
49

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

16/09/2009 23:03:26
#42 Warden Resurrected

If you buy £12.50 cardboard boots, no matter how well you look after them they will fall apart before a neglected pair of Rockports will.

Which takes us back to all those jerry-built off-balance sheet PFI monstrosities Labour have saddled us with.

The thought of a PFI bridge, designed to fall down the day after the lease runs out...I'd rather walk the long way round wearing a pair of your £12.50 boots.
50

Brianwci,

16/09/2009 23:06:44
#47 Traquir: Brit Nats think England and Britain are one and the same and that Scotland is very fortunate to be an integral and very important, not to mention valued part of England....I mean Britain.

It's understandable therefore that the Brit Nats, when not engaged in synchronised Howling at the Moon, are in a perpetual state of confusion.
51

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

16/09/2009 23:11:31
#43 Warden Resurrected

Talking of conspiracies...do you think these two boys who were found Not Guilty, would have been so fortunate, had they had turned up in court wearing turbans?

Or for that matter...Kilts?
52

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

16/09/2009 23:20:54
#52 Brianwci

Smurphy appeared more than a little confused tonight on the News...He seemed to think Halifax was in Auld Scotia and that the shareholders of a PLC all live within 100 miles of the registered office.

He declared that it was unrealistic of the Scottish Government to complain about Westminster cutting their budget...as the British Government, was rooked because it had just bailed out our Scottish Banks.
53

truthsleuth,

16/09/2009 23:34:10
The bridge is not necessary its main beneficiaries will be to the Road hauliers whose subsidised heavy lorries caused the damage to the first road bridge.

If they want the new bridge they could unite together and form a company to sell shares in the new bridge.

They could offer toll free passage across the bridge to all shareholders.
Come now you supporters put your money where your mouth is you will then show just how much the bridge is necessary.
54

Baggy Troosers,

17/09/2009 03:58:35
#46

Grow up bairn.
55

Warden Resurrected,

17/09/2009 07:06:55
Traquìr
Spagan
The Col. of Monte Cristo
The Forth road bridge was built between 1958 and 1964 and this is only 2009. The method of payment for this bridge didn’t do much for its life span.

 

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