Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

The hunt is On.
Sponsored by
The hunt is On.
Can you track down Scotland's wildest beastie?
 
 
Friday, 9th January 2009

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Sign In
Register

America will stand by you, Cheney promises Georgia



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 05 September 2008
By Noah Barkin and Tabassum Zakaria
in Tbilisi
DICK Cheney, the US vice-president, yesterday vowed to support Georgia in its showdown with Russia, calling Moscow's war against the former Soviet state an illegitimate act that cast doubt on its reliability.
Mr Cheney, one of Moscow's harshest critics, is the highest- ranking US official to visit Georgia since Tbilisi tried to retake the breakaway region of South Ossetia by force early in August and was overwhelmed by the Russian military.

His strong comments may rile the Kremlin. Moscow has accused the United States of fuelling tensions by egging on the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili, a US-educated lawyer with close ties to George Bush's administration.

"After your nation won its freedom in the Rose Revolution, America came to the aid of this courageous young democracy," Mr Cheney said, referring to the peaceful revolution in 2003 which brought Mr Saakashvili to power.

"We are doing so again as you work to overcome an invasion of your sovereign territory and an illegitimate, unilateral attempt to change your country's borders by force that has been universally condemned by the free world," Mr Cheney said, standing next to Mr Saakashvili on his first visit to Tbilisi.

Russian officials did not respond and have been dismissive about Mr Cheney's presence. Sergei Lavrov, the foreign minister, had said on Wednesday that he was not paying much attention to Cheney's trip.

Mr Cheney, on a tour of US allies in the region that started in Azerbaijan and continued in Ukraine late yesterday, said Russia's actions had cast "grave doubt" on its intentions and reliability as a partner in the region and internationally.

Azerbaijan and Georgia are links in a western-backed energy corridor, bypassing Russia, which the West fears could be in jeopardy following the Kremlin's thrust into Georgia.

The Kremlin has recognised South Ossetia and a second rebel region, Abkhazia, as independent states.

Only Nicaragua has followed Moscow's example in recognising the two provinces. In a setback for Russia, its former Soviet security allies stopped short of doing so yesterday, although they did blame Georgia for the conflict.

Russia has kept troops in a "buffer zone" on Georgian territory, a move the US and European Union say violates a French-brokered peace plan. Moscow says the troops are needed to provide security.

However, Moscow says it will withdraw once a mechanism for deploying international monitors is agreed, and has invited EU police to participate.

Franco Frattini, the Italian foreign minister, said after talks with Mr Lavrov in Moscow that it was in Europe's interests "that the international mission assumes full control of the security zone as quickly as possible".

Military monitors from the OSCE, a pan-European security body, gained brief access to the buffer zone adjacent to South Ossetia yesterday for the first time since the conflict.

After the crisis erupted, Mr Cheney said that Russian actions would not go unanswered.

On Wednesday, Washington announced aid of more than $1 billion to help Georgia rebuild housing, transportation and other infrastructure destroyed in its five-day war with Russia.

The US is also sending relief supplies aboard the Mount Whitney, a command warship of the US sixth fleet. It could arrive off Georgia as early as today.

Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, has accused the US of delivering weapons to Georgia by sea, a charge rejected by the White House.

IN QUOTES

DICK Cheney yesterday said the United States was "fully committed" to Georgian efforts to join Nato.

"Georgia will be in our alliance," he told reporters while standing alongside Mikhail Saakashvili, the Georgian president .

"America is fully committed to Georgia's membership action plan for Nato and to its eventual membership in the alliance.

"The United States is very pleased with the recent establishment of the Nato-Georgia commission.

"As the current members of Nato declared at the summit in Bucharest, Georgia will be in our alliance. Nato is a defensive alliance."

The full article contains 656 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 September 2008 12:49 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Georgia , Russia
 
1

Newman!,

05/09/2008 00:27:26
You didnt mention that Dick handed Georgia $1billion dollars from American taxpayers. Well deserved isnt it. Americans would only squander it on education or somethin....
2

Eboneesha,

05/09/2008 00:28:43
Can't wait to read the comments from the Chinese communists and other anti Americans.
3

Eboneesha,

05/09/2008 00:29:20
Speak of the devil
4

Scullion,

Canada 05/09/2008 01:26:39
Ai-yi-yi, the devil went down to Georgia (with apologies to the Charlie Daniels Band).
Cheney must be persona non grata in Minnesota.
5

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 02:11:17
If you Europeans had any sense you would boot out the war mongering Americans and reconcile with Russia. If you don't, you'll get everything you deserve.
There was supposed to be a large payoff of social and educational improvement after the end of the cold war, when money poured into defence was to be used on people. But that didn't happen, did it? I guess those Nato guys really like their salaries. I guess the US war mongers really need their European market, specially now that Taiwan seems to have realised that they don't need to defend themselves from China.
6

D-945,

05/09/2008 02:15:09
#2 Eboneesha

He He He He... Yep! The typical Communists are attacking the USA and Cheney so far. Scullion, Mashimaro, & Newman never have a kind word.
7

Scullion,

Canada 05/09/2008 02:22:22
#5 While the their current administration is short-sighted and incompetent, don't ever compare the U.S. to Russia or China.
As I always say on these forums, the day I hear a bad word about China from a poster from China, I'll pack it in.
Go on, say that the Chinese government is a pack of criminals and should all be in jail
Here I'll start, the Canadian government is a pack of criminals and should all be in jail.
See that was easy-now you try it.
8

Scullion,

Canada 05/09/2008 02:25:53
#6 You couldn't possibly be more wrong. I grew up idolizing America-and I still do. But the Nixons and the Reagans and the Bush's have let the greatness that was America slip simply because they were afraid to talk to the world and/or bribed their middle classes with a couple of bucks of tax money.
9

57Nomad,

california 05/09/2008 06:25:03
#8 Scullion

I don't know if you are old enough to remember, it ended 18 years ago. But there was a country called the USSR (soyuz sovietica socialista republica, so I don't get called on some weird technical foul).

In 1980 the cold war was heading for a climax and the smart money was on the Soviets. They were in Afghanistan driving toward the Gulf, their ultimate goal, a year round warm water port, not to mention the oil. They had perverted a democratic election in Grenada, murdered the prime minister and installed their flunky. They were building military type runways and there was little doubt of their hostile intentions. They had hijacked a popular revolution in Nicaragua and installed the Sandinista junta and they were driving toward our southern border. This may sound trivial to you but American has a border with Mexico. That border is two thousand miles long.

We stood by and watched the degenerate royal cousins of Europe locked in a bloody war over what was essentially nothing. Despite requests to join the effort, we felt it was an internal European matter and stayed away.

What got us into the war? A German diplomat sent the President of Mexico a telegram offering him a box full of goodies if the Mexicans would do them the minor favor of going to war with the US for the return of the territory they lost to us in the Mexican war. They were hoping to tie down the American army defending the endless border and prevent the US from coming to the aid of Britain and France.

Woodrow Wilson was a man of immense intelligence and a gentleman of the old old school and had striven mightily to keep the US out of the European blood bath. US intel intercepted the message, which became known, not all that originally, as the "Zimmerman Telegram." It was the Zimmerman Telegram, not the sinking of the Lusitania that caused Wilson to change his mind, saying, "I'm just an old man but I am fighting mad."

Charles De Gaulle said "Central America is just an
10

57Nomad,

05/09/2008 06:27:37
#9 contd.

Charles De Gaulle said "Central America is just an incident on the way to Mexico." So, in 1980, not only was the Soviet Union on the march but they were winning and driving toward our southern border. The US was being written off as yesterdays news.

Then in 1980 Ronald Reagan was elected. The election is in November but the inauguration doesn't take place until January of the next year. During the interim, a smarmy reporter, seeking to test Reagan's speed of response asked him to expound on his views of the cold war. Instead of the rambling incoherent response she was expecting, Reagan answered with a phrase that a Spartan would have admired for it economy of words. He said, "We win, they lose."

Check a map of the world or a globe. Get one that was printed before 1991 and one printed after 1991 and see if you see anything different. I'll help. The USSR has disappeared and the Central Europeans who had chafed under the Russian yoke for fifty years were freed. Furthermore, the Soviets had deployed squadrons of SS20 IRBMs and had them pointed at the major cities of western Europe. Where are they now? They are scrap. It was Reagan's brilliant counterstrike, the deploying (and it never even had to be completed) of a much more advanced IRBM, the Pershing, stationed them in Europe and pointed them at Soviet cities that brought Gorbachev to his senses. The US and the USSR, by a strategy that was conceived by Reagan himself that led to the destruction of both fleets of IRBM's. So, when you go to sleep tonight remember that you don't have to worry about a Soviet nuclear fleet of missiles pointed right at you. For that you have one man to thank, Ronald Wilson Reagan. Ronald Reagan was the greatest man of the second half of the 20th century.
11

57Nomad,

california 05/09/2008 06:38:17
#1 Newman! (great name, by the way)

Hey, Newman, it's our money and it's no business of yours where or how we spend it. They need our help. Canada isn't going to send so much as a postcard. Where is your honor? A friend of ours is being menaced by a monster, what would you do? Stand and watch with your hands in your pockets. Suppose it was Canada that was threatened by the Russians. This isn't far fetched, the claiming of the Arctic sooner or later is going to happen. And the choice you are going to have is backing down from the Russians and letting them steal your stuff or standing up to them. What are you going to do? Who are you going to turn to for help?
12

Itchy,

05/09/2008 06:55:09
#5" Mashimaro,China 05/09/2008 02:11:17
If you Europeans had any sense you would boot out the war mongering Americans and reconcile with Russia"

If you Chinese had any sense, you would kick out the totalitarian Communists and introduce liberal reforms like free speech.

As it is, you will now start talking rubbish about how freedom will make you starve and try to pretend that communism isn't a total failure everywhere, including China - that's why they had to liberalise the economy in the 1970's.
13

james 1st,

hamilton nz 05/09/2008 06:56:59
cheyney should know all about illegal wars, look at iraq.
hopefully the next us president either obama of mccain will restore the usa to a more internationally friendly country,giving assistance when asked, instead of imposing the will of the likes of bush on other countries
the usa has been a great country and can be again but not while bush is around
14

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 07:09:50
#7 Many of China's government officials are a pack of criminals and should be executed.

Happy?
15

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 07:15:16
#7 You think the US is short-sighted and incompetent? Is that what you call the cold blooded slaughter of hundreds of thousands of civillians?
911 tore the mask right off the face of the demon Uncle Sam. You can't sell us your cowboy on a white horse bs anymore. You're money grabbing murderders, plain and simple. You just dress it up in the politspeak of "democracy" that has become your latest excuse for slaughter.
16

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 07:16:15
#12 You're a frog in a well, Itchy
17

james 1st,

hamilton nz 05/09/2008 07:18:45
#15 the usa may not be perfect but neither is either ruaasia nor china, the only thing in chinas favour is that it butchers mainly its own citizens
18

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 07:22:59
Holy cow Nomad you can spout your facist rubbish eh?
The Russians were in Afghanistan because they didn't want a strong, unified, fundamentalist islamic neighbour on their doorstep when they had islamic people under their control.
As it turned out they were right.
Why don't you tell us all why the US dropped two bombs on Japan? And don't give me the bs about saving lives. Japan was trying to surrender. You've seen my arguments in the other thread. You've neatly avoided them.
That is where you wonderful US went "wrong" in a big way. Have the bolls to admit that first.
19

Itchy,

05/09/2008 07:54:00
#18 what complaint can you have about Fascism?

You are against freedom and for dictatorship.

I may add that Hitler was a National Socialist and Stalin was a Soviet Socialist. Fascism and Communism are the same in principle.
20

gus1940,

Edinburgh 05/09/2008 09:01:26
Be scared - very scared.

If sending Cheney of all people to Georgia is not deliberate provocation of Georgia what is?

You can poke a bear with a stick just once too often.

Incidentally, what do the following have in common:-

Bush
Cheney
Rumsfeld
Wolfowitz

Answwer:-

They are all War Criminals and none of them turned up in St.Paul this week.
21

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 09:43:56
#19 and Itchy, what do you call those people who dropped two atom bombs on civillians for nothing more than a demonstration of their country's power to a rival? What do you call them?
22

James Donald,

Newbridge 05/09/2008 09:51:58
American promises of support are as much for the benefit of NATO's Eastern European "front line" states as Georgia's. Small states such as Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are particularly concerned about Russian bullying especially as they contain large Russian "colonist" populations. These ethnic Russians often show more loyalty to Russia than the state they live in and are a potential source of trouble (as is the enclave of Kaliningrad).
23

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 10:36:31
America's meddling in Europe is to maintin its war machine.
24

Newman!,

05/09/2008 10:50:55
#11 Nomad. I was merely putting the information out there cos the article didnt mention it. It sure is up to Americans what they spend their money on.

What would I do? well if a friend of mine launched an attack on a neighbour that prompted a response from a even bigger neighbour then I'd say "that was a very silly thing to do friend, dont do it again".

Dont be sucked into the old reds under the bed game, its just an excuse to continue giving trillions to their buddies in the arms industry.
25

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 12:03:31
Nomad and Jimmy and all others so concerned that China would not investigate the collapse of schools during the sichuan quake...

BEIJING (AP) — Nearly four months after a devastating earthquake hit a southwest Chinese province, a government scientist said Thursday a rush to build schools in recent years likely led to construction flaws that caused so many of them to collapse — the first official admission that low building standards may have been behind the deaths of thousands of children.
Questions about shoddy construction have become a flash point for government critics after the 7.9-magnitude quake killed nearly 70,000 people in Sichuan province, including many students crushed to death when their classrooms crumbled.
Ma Zongjin, chairman of an official committee of experts, said poor quality building materials and inadequate support for large classrooms may be two reasons more than a thousand schools were damaged in the quake. Ma is one of 30 experts appointed to research the May 12 quake.
“In recent years a lot of school buildings have been built in China and in this process of rapid development, some problems may exist,” Ma, a geologist, told reporters in Beijing. “The structure of the school buildings may not be reasonable enough and the related construction materials may not be strong enough.”
Engineers and building experts sent to the disaster zone by the government to study damage have also raised questions about the quality of construction and the adherence to building codes. But Ma's comments Thursday were the first to touch on the potential findings of a promised official investigation.
While the government has vowed strict punishment for bad construction along with the investigation, there has so far been no public attempt to hold anyone accountable.
26

Itchy,

05/09/2008 12:09:59
"21 Mashimaro,China 05/09/2008 09:43:56
#19 and Itchy, what do you call those people who dropped two atom bombs on civillians for nothing more than a demonstration of their country's power to a rival? What do you call them?"

I call those people correct for finishing off an enemy prepared to fight to the death.

What objection do you have to mass killing anyway?

You said that the Kulaks deserved what they got so what is wrong?
27

Miss Pixie,

formerly of Dinleyhaughfoot Cottage, Roxburghshire 05/09/2008 12:32:53
We should all stay out of eachother's business. The average person living anywhere on the planet Earth just wants to be left alone to get on with living. The problem is that a small number of individuals feel the need to dominate the world and fuss with one another endlessly. Why can't these so-called "leaders" just be placed in a room together and let them duke it out without dragging the rest of us into their madness?
28

Scullion,

Canada 05/09/2008 13:26:34
#14 There that proves it. You are not in China at all. If so, you'd be shut down by now.
29

Let's have the truth,

A nuclear bomb shelter miles from anywhere 05/09/2008 13:32:31
If McCain is so bent on changing Washington why doesn't he start by chaining up Dr Strangelove Cheney?
30

Mashimaro,

China 05/09/2008 13:34:27
#28 Whatever dude, i'm not getting into an argument with you that I can't possibly win.

#27 Uh, itch, it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Japanese were trying to surrender and that the US knew they were trying to surrender. It has also been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the reason the US dropped the bombs on women and children was to give the Soviets a demonstration of their power.

So please, let me know what you call those people.
31

Logie Almond,

05/09/2008 14:21:04
Dick Cheney said "We object to an invasion of your sovereign territory. That's our job!"
32

,

05/09/2008 14:51:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

mike - across the pond,

wow mashi... 05/09/2008 15:59:00
so you are saying that we americans should have stayed out of Japan's business in 1942?

left china to thier tender mercies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

after all you were doing SO well in fighting back...
34

Ian Hendry,

Boston USA 05/09/2008 18:20:33
Sending Cheney to Georgia is just about the most aggresively cynical act of a hypocritical governemtn i've seen for a long time, this guy is there to makes things worse not better. The Russians were correct to invade when they did as Russians citizens in these areas were being ethnically cleansed by the Georgians. Of course most of the American public wouldn't know this as they are fed a daily dose of Flags, national anthems and god bless America songs, no education to speak of about anything else.. This insidious policy of driving Nato further east was clearly intended to force the Russians to react nothing else..

By the way somone mentioned Reagan being the greatest man of the 20th century, do you mean the FBI informer that lied to Congress and secretly dealt with Iran to send money and arms to terrorists in Central America, that Reagan???...
35

Vasya,

05/09/2008 18:43:52
Cheney visit to Azerbaidzhan was complete fiasco by the way))) He was met just by Foreighn minister, all his offers to Aliev about oil and gas transit not via Russia were rejected so clear that he did not go even for supper in his honor (as guest))) Azerbaidhan in contrast to the bought and sold Georgia is a key player there. Azerbaidzhn has oil and gas. Georgia is just transit country.

But of course here in the article no a word about that))) Honest and full information)))
That's how brainwashing machine works...
36

Scotsman in Dublin,

05/09/2008 19:19:22
Has anybody asked the people of South Ossetia and Abkhazia what they want? Surely if a group of people decide that they want to form their own state then they should be allowed to do so, was this not what the USA did? Surely its hypocrisy to support Georgia breaking away from Russia but not to support South Ossetia breaking away from Georgia. Am I missing something?
37

Itchy,

05/09/2008 20:17:47
#30 no, it hasn't been proven any such thing.

Interestingly, there are many in the west that promulgate the idea that Japan was going to surrender and they are also communist sympathizers as well.

Quelle surprise.
38

mike - across the pond,

brage... 05/09/2008 21:05:23
so you think that budapest in the 50's and prague in the 60's was ok?

dooming a SECOND generation of Czech's and Hungarians to the yoke of the iron curtain was acceptable in your book?

you might want to run that by a couple people from the former soviet block before you soil yourself, turn your yellow tail and run....

good lord, no wonder my ancestors gave you all the salute and left....
39

mike - across the pond,

barge... and WMD 05/09/2008 21:13:18
I think your problem is you didnt pay attention...

the ISSUE, what was said... was that Iraq had the ABILITY TO produce WMD, and the inclination to use it... and the propensity to distribute it... they never had to actually HAVE them, just the ability and inclination to produce them....

which was in CLEAR VIOLATION of the Kuwait era cease fire accords.

hussein had the OPPORTUNITY to stand down, and comply with those accords... and chose bluster and fluff... which was finally met with SHOCK AND AWE... for the 2nd time in 12 years... he had no excuse... apparently like you he lacked the ability to pay attention... or the memory that would have saved his bacon....
40

SouthernGent,

05/09/2008 21:25:33
#36
Yes, you are missing something. Georgia was an independant country prior to 1921 when they were invaded by the USSR. So they didn't "break away" from Russia, they regained their independence.
41

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 05/09/2008 21:27:51
watch the stupid idiot anti-American Americans on this forum cheer for American deaths.

there were 2 US soldiers killed in the initial violence of this Georgia-Russia conflict. Cheney was a coward in the 1960's and got out of service in Vietnam. Today he orchestrates and applauds American deaths in new conflicts.

This conflict was started when Georgian 'peace-keepers' in S. Ossetia turned their guns by surprise against Russian peace-keepers whom they had partnered with for years in S. Ossetia. They murdered 71 Russian soldiers in cold-blood without warning or provocation. Then they turned their weaponry on Russian civilians in that province. They used cluster bombs even.

The Russians say they captured some US soldiers alive.

Stupid Americans with no loyalty whatsoever to our country cheer for this war. Why are we over there fighting Russians? Stupid Americans cling to their tv news that keeps them ignorant. My relative in the US military told me that 2 US soldiers were killed on the first day. The Russian media confirms this and also says they captured some Americans alive.

The Russians have about 70,000 nuclear weapons. They also have superior torpedoes that can sink US navy ships if only they can get within 400 miles. They are a formidable military opponent and we don't know how a conflict with them would end, except that it would potentially be a catastrophe for the whole world. Stupid idiot Americans cheer for this.
42

mike - across the pond,

mashi.... 05/09/2008 21:29:38
um... maybe we should have just grabbed a million chinese and marched THEM onto the beaches in Japan...

the bloodshed on the japanese mainland would have been LEGENDARY...

the TRUTH about Japan is the EMPEROR was considering surrender... the Military wanted to fight on... only after the 2nd bomb did the Emperor decide that if this war continued that the US may well continute annihilating Japanese cities... and HE could easily become a casualty... so he unilaterally surrendered over the objection of the hawkish wing of his military....

the REALITY was that the reason for the confidence of the Japanese military was that Japanese industry was secretly beginning to produce jet fighters, and bombers (based on messershmidt technologies)... allied forces had NONE of this technology in its industrial pipeline and would have been AT LEAST a year off... if these aircraft had entered the fray, japan owns the air, the tide of war WOULD have turned, regardless of russian entry. their sea and ground power would have meant NOTHING if japan owned the air...
43

SouthernGent,

05/09/2008 21:29:44
#32
"Russia now finds itself surrounded by countries being encouraged by America to join NATO"

Nice slant on it, but wrong. More like ex-occupied countries clamoring for protection from NATO. If you just got out of prison in a foreign country wouldn't you seek refuge from friendlier allies?
44

Vasya,

05/09/2008 21:29:50
Mike... What do you know about Hungary 1956 and Czechoclovakia 1968 except that there were russian tanks in there))) In 1968 in particular it was just uprising of one part of high rank communists against another))) So what??? Do not tell me that you do care about commies))) I can tell you a secret - the most rude behavior against czechs was from germans (german democratic Republic if you know what I mean) and you why??? Becuase after war all germans were expelled from so famous (becasue of Hitlers invasion into czechoslovakia) Sudet region))) And it was a kind of retaliation)))
It is really funny to see how the western brainwashed mob jumping around the 1968 events having not a slighttest clue about it...
45

SouthernGent,

05/09/2008 21:34:48
#42
Mashi's mission is to troll these boards and post as much anti-west drivel as he can. He is never constructive and follows his prooganda handbook to a tee. His agenda will not allow him to post the truth.
46

Vasya,

05/09/2008 21:43:32
#43 ))) Whom you called "ex=occupied contries"??? Georgia??? That exists only because of russian protection??? Poland, which got mote territores as Stalin's gist that it ever could dream??? Estonia or Latvia, which vere existed and in general their existance is a history joke)))
Take a look at Finland. People in there who have at least a couple ideas in their heads are gratefull to Russian Empire that allowed them to develop nationaly which was impossible under Swedish rule. Being not in NATO they got more from Russia than trying any hostility against it.
Bismark said - Never have war against Russia)) Bytheway when he was a prussian ambassador in StPetersburg he dreamt to spent his retirment days in a russian village next to russian cancellor's one with whom they were good friends and rivals)))
47

puskas,

East kilbride 05/09/2008 21:46:04
No18 Mashimaro.

Stalin argued against dropping the bombs in Nagasaki and Hiroshimo.. The Red Army was massing for invasion of Japan on the Sakhalin Islands,Nikolayevskna Amure, and Manchuria.

The dropping of the bombs had more to do with the imminent invasion of Japan by the Red Army.

That was the fear of the West.
48

mike - across the pond,

wally.... 05/09/2008 21:46:50
jeez wally....

cheney got 3 deferments and you call HIM all sorts of ugly names.... and I challenge you to define them and put them on a timeline...

biden had FIVE.... what are you going to say about HIM? lets hear it wally.... its alright... say it...

so you are rooting for.... who?


US soldiers captured by Russian troops.... where are these troops wally? did the russian shoot them with magical shrink rays and have them taped onto pages in secret dociers in the basement of the kremlin?

"Why are we over there fighting Russians?"
wait for it..... wait for it.....
its the price we pay on the space we occupy...
wally, arent you glad our forefathers saw fit to pay the price for the space YOU now occupy?

"we don't know how a conflict with them would end"
well wally maybe YOU dont... however its been 7 years since we saw the best AA the russians could give hussein lighting up the skies of baghdad... how many "shoot downs" did they have??? over HOW many missions?

"They also have superior torpedoes that can sink US navy ships if only they can get within 400 miles" yeah no... if our ships are sitting in one spot... doing absolutely NOTHING to protect themselves.... MAYBE... but that simply isnt REALITY...

maybe you should go salute your hammer & sickle now wally....
49

Scotsman in Dublin,

05/09/2008 21:52:53
#40, and i have no problem with Georgia "regaining their independence", but at some point in history Georgia became a country, what is wrong with South Ossetia becoming a country. Can you tell me what I am missing now you who decides who should and shouldnt be a country?
50

Vasya,

05/09/2008 22:02:08
Mike... polically correct afro-american exists but afro-georgian is a joke))) In Tshinval one body of such afro-georgian was found for sure... Just a week befoe the georgian attack on Tshinval large scale war game with about 1000 US military advisors. What US advisors do we know well from Vietnam history.
51

Vasya,

05/09/2008 22:10:11
#47 According to the ally treaty between the US and USSR, USSR was obliged to start war against Japan immidiately after finishing war against Nazy Germany. So russian soldiers that did not see their families for years of war against Germany went directly from West to East to start war there. The most prepared and equipped japanees army Quntune army was in Chine that time and was defeated by russian troops. Indeed Japan capitulation was rather due to the fear of soviet invasion than atom bombing. Bytheway official Russia is still in war with Japan. Peace treaty has not been sighned yet only Japan capitulation.
52

Media 1,

cape town 05/09/2008 22:13:04
Cheyney = Lies and deceit! The end
53

puskas,

East kilbride 05/09/2008 22:17:23
No 43,

It has to be remember the deaths of 22,000,000 Soviet citizens.

The German forces also enlisted Estonians,Latvian, Lithuanian, Poles, Hungarians Austrian, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Czechs... etc. etc. who were all involved in the murder of Soviet people.
The Soviets did not have short memories and when their advance came they overtook/shocked the Allies with the speed of it.
The Germans on the Eastern front had 90% of their forces stationed their with backup from these other nations.
Of course partizan fighters in these countries rebelled against the Nazis'. That doesn't take away the fact that many of their fellow countrymen fought alongside the German forces.
Their fate was death and Siberia.


54

puskas,

East kilbride 05/09/2008 22:22:36
No51

Read 47..

Your history is very good.. You make a good tutor with your historical facts.

You excel in educating the board.

55

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 05/09/2008 22:23:10
49 Scotsman in Dublin

I believe from a previous unofficial vote, S.Ossetians voted hugely in favour of independence from Georgia. However, whether they seek self determination, wish to join Mother Russia, or be united with the much larger N.Ossetia has not really been clarified.

Abkhazia is another matter. Here are some facts I posted previously:

Population in 2003 was 216,000
21% Georgian, 44% Abkhaz, 11% Russian, 21% Armenian, 3% others

Population in 1989 was 525,000
46% Georgian, 18% Abkhaz, 14% Russian, 15% Armenian, 7% others

WHY THE DIFFERENCE YOU MAY ASK?

Attributed directly to the genocide of approx 20,000 Georgians and subsequent ethnic cleansing of over 200,000 Georgians from Abkhazia. This was the work of the Confederation of Mountain Peoples of the Caucasus (including Abkhazia), aided by Russian equipment and funds, a Black Sea naval blockade by Russia, and possible involvement of Russian Generals in strategic maneouvers against Georgian forces. A central part of this was the Sukhumi Massacre and the Battle of Gagra where Georgian POWs were executed. These war crimes and ethnic cleansing are being investigated by the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

And just recently, on May 15, 2008, the UN General Assembly adopted a non-binding resolution recognising the right of all refugees (including victims of reported “ethnic cleansing”) to return to Abkhazia and their property rights.

56

SouthernGent,

05/09/2008 22:54:51
#53
The point is, after the war, the USSR "ruled" these nations as if they were their own. They were not. In contrast, the allies could have done the same with germany and japan, but did not. Instead, they were helped to become rehabilitated members of the international community.
57

SouthernGent,

05/09/2008 22:57:15
#49
Touchy, touchy. You asked a question and I merely answered it. I believe the accepted method of redrawing boarders has been to go through the UN. But since that is so disfunctional, who knows.
58

Scotsman in Dublin,

05/09/2008 23:30:36
#57, I am not getting touchy at all - i did ask a question but you didnt answer it. My point was that the west is guilty of hypocrisy when it talks up democracy but only backs democracy when it suits them. I have no desire to back up Russia, in foreign policy Russia is a bully, but in this aspect the Bush/Cheney USA is no better. If Cheney was concerned with democracy he would be asking for an election in S.Ossetia, but the reality is that its US (or his own) interests that he is concerned with, not democracy.
59

Brodric,

05/09/2008 23:34:05
{America came to the aid of this courageous young democracy," Mr Cheney said, referring to the peaceful revolution in 2003 which brought Mr Saakashvili to power}

Oh really, yawn, yawn. Why am I so cynical about this?

Because the USA never went to the aid of anyone when there wasn't some major self-interest involved.

No 56 SouthernGent - it can quite easily be said that the USA "has ruled" a lot of countries through the provision of aid/non provision of aid and interference - how about Palestine/Lebanon/Cambodia/Vietnam.....longer list but I am tired.

As for Hiroshima and Nagasaki - there is no just cause for nuking these cities. This was the much-needed experiment on how the new "toys" would work. It was - and remains - a despicable war crime for which the USA has yet to pay.
60

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 05/09/2008 23:50:52
58
You asked a question previously and I answered at 55. I take it you want an argument and not facts.

But you are quite right. The US is not that interested in the sovereignty of Georgia. They are interested in securing safe passage of the oil pipelines and cargo from Azerbaijan through Georgia to the West. Until we are no longer dependent on energy from far-flung places, I too am concerned about safe passage through Georgia. Russia has already revealed it's true colours in witholding energy supplies to Ukraine when they disagree with a foreign policy measure. We don't want to get into that kind of situation.

S.Ossetia and Abkhazia are therefore 'Red Herrings'.
61

SouthernGent,

05/09/2008 23:54:42
#58
There are claims that the Russians have been fomenting genocide for years in Ossetia. If this is true, and you allow Ossetia to vote, that would be a world changing precedent. Think about it, kill off (drive off) the ethnic groups in your local town/state and then vote for whatever you want. You would never lose an election/referendum. My point is, I don't know how to go about it, but I don't think Russia should be the one to decide.
62

Scotsman in Dublin,

05/09/2008 23:59:24
#60, Andrew, my response at #58 was to #57 southern gent, not you. I dont know enough about what is going on inside Georgia to have an argument with anyone about the details - what i am concerned with is the recent (or maybe not so recent) trend of superpowers picking and choosing who has the right to sovereignty, Russia and USA and the cold war that never ended.
63

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/09/2008 00:04:29
#58, How is that different from the foundation that the USA was built on. Americans or European colonists killed off and drove off the native people and then created a democracy one they were the majority, no?

64

SouthernGent,

06/09/2008 00:18:13
#63
It isn't, but how far back do you want to go. You can take it back to the beginning of man, the question is how to go forward. The UN was set up to handle these types of issues, but its more disfunctional than my own family. Its the age old question, and I'm afraid will never have an answer. Too many conflicting interests/ideologies to get there.
65

Scotsman in Dublin,

06/09/2008 00:36:45
#64, the UN is only disfunctional because the superpowers/security council members ignore its resolutions, that goes for the US, Russia, China, UK and plenty others. Even going to the wider group its not exactly a high standard for membership, I mean even Mugabe gets a vote right! I really dont think that the UN has any right to decide on these issues, it has to be down to the people that live there, without interference from superpowers pushing their own agenda.
66

Mashimaro,

China - Mike across the pond 06/09/2008 01:05:38
#33 Did I say that? No. I just said the US should never ever have dropped two atom bombs on civillians when the Japanese were trying to surrender. That's slaughter - not to end the war, not to save the Chinese - to teach the Soviets a lesson. These are the people you support. The people that will slaughter civilians and cause untold destruction on the earth just to start a cold war.
67

Mashimaro,

China itchy lies again 06/09/2008 01:21:12
#37 See a real jouranlist at work...
Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan was censored for seven months into holding the story of Japan's attempts at surrender. He finally ran his story on August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald. Maybe you'd like to research what he had to say...that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)
Darn those pesky journalists. But of course, he might have lied. So why didn't Washington issue a correction? Why not force him to withdraw?
The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

So once again, itchy, what do you call THOSE people?
68

SouthernGent,

06/09/2008 01:22:43
If I'm not mistaken, Truman and his cronies are all dead now. Unless we are going to compare all the leaders of the time, it has no bearing. Shall we condemn China now for actions by Mao? You need to quit living in the past.
69

Mashimaro,

China 06/09/2008 01:25:19
#38 Mike - the Iron curtain would not have even been necessary if it had not been for the overt agression of the US.
70

SouthernGent,

06/09/2008 01:27:13
#69
if,if,if,if

I don't think thats a game you relly want to play.
71

Mashimaro,

China Mike Acorss the Pond - what have you been sm 06/09/2008 01:49:09
#42 Marched a million Chinese on to what beaches in Japan? JAPAN WAS TRYING TO SURRENDER! You need not have done ANYTHING except sign on the dotted line, or - and here's a wild idea - NEGOTIATE!

The TRUTH my squirmy friend... if you care to look it up, is that Japan was beaten by June 1945. Constant US bombing had already gutted Japan. They had no raw materials, Tokyo had been bombed in March - about 100,000 people had been killed. It was bombed again on May 23 with 4,500 tons of incendiary bombs that wiped out rail yards and its commercial centre. On May 25 US forces delivered antoher 4,000 tons of bombs.

In April 1945 a new government headed by Kantaro Suzuki took office with the mission of ending the war. When Germany capitulated in early May, the Japanese understood that the British and Americans would now direct the military power exclusively against them.

But Japan made a fatal mistake of trying to include Soviet Russia in its negotiations. On January 20, the US had with them the terms of surrender of Japan which were very similar to the ones they finally signed.
There is your REALITY Mike. Go back and see what McArthur had to say about it.
The US had long broken the Japanese codes and knew all of their transmitted messages.
If the US leadership had not insisted on unconditional surrender -- that is, if they had made clear a willingness to permit the Emperor to remain in place -- the Japanese very likely would have surrendered immediately, thus saving many thousands of lives.

The sad irony is that, as it actually turned out, the American leaders decided anyway to retain the Emperor as a symbol of authority and continuity. They realized, correctly, that Hirohito was useful as a figurehead prop for their own occupation authority in postwar Japan.

72

Mashimaro,

China at the Southern Gent 06/09/2008 01:59:01
#56 "The point is, after the war, the USSR "ruled" these nations as if they were their own. They were not. In contrast, the allies could have done the same with germany and japan, but did not. Instead, they were helped to become rehabilitated members of the international community. "

Maybe you need to have a broader picture of post war Russia and Europe. America had been untouched by the war. In fact it had made pretty good on it. So it bullied and mauled Japan and Germany - the parts that it ruled - to prevent the people democratically electing a communist government. It also had a huge propaganda campaign in Italy too, to prevent THEM electing a commie government. So ... so much for democracy. It poured money into these territories because it knew that if it did not, the communists would be elected. It also poured money into destabilising the soviet union and causing trouble in the eastern european states.
By the same token, Russia had come through two world wars, a civl war, etc etc etc... it didn't have the resouces to rebuild those places, in fact it needed them for resources to rebuild itself. That naturally led to a breeding ground for resentment and a lot of places ripe for western catpawing.
73

Imelda,

06/09/2008 04:55:12
33
mike - across the pond

I click your link. So horrible experiments on the innocent Chinese civilians by the Japanese dogs!

I'm glad my grandparents were not living in that region of China where the Japs carried up such terrible inhuman experiments. Who knows, they might have also ended up as guinea pigs there? The Japs were very cruel and merciless.

They were very ambitious and wanted to take control of the whole of South-east Asia. Negotiation was totally out of question.

The nuclear bombs saved so many more lives and on top of all, it ended the WWII in South-east Asia. My hat off to the Americans and Allied troops for coming to rescue my countrymen and stopped the slaughter.

Thanks Mike, for posting the link.

74

mike - across the pond,

imelda.... 06/09/2008 06:49:18
its truly a horriffic incident in human history...

I am not excusing their actions (nor am I asking a scintilla of absolution for them) but the butchers who passed themselves off as doctors and nurses in that unit are now attempting to cleanse their souls, confessing to the horriffic acts they witnessed and committed in these camps... their accounts are compelling...

I believe they will face their maker with the FULL weight of their actions on their souls.
75

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 06/09/2008 07:01:30
# 39

Historical revisionism.

Cheney and Bush said that Saddam had WMD, as well as that he was actively seeking nuclear capabilities. (WMD are not necessarily nuclear.)

Don't you remember that obnoxious "comedy" skit that Bush did at the Rado and Television Correspondents Association in March of 2004? The series of slides of Bush "searching" the Oval Office, with the commentary by Bush including questions like (paraphrasing) "Where could those WMD possibly be?" I clearly recall a shot of him looking behind some curtains.

Saddam had stood down and was cooperating with UN weapons inspectors.

http://www.armscontrol.org/pressroom/2008/20080605_Iraq_Report
76

James Donald,

Newbridge 06/09/2008 08:09:11
#72 Mashimaro,Red China - "it bullied and mauled Japan and Germany - the parts that it ruled - to prevent the people democratically electing a communist government. It also had a huge propaganda campaign in Italy too, to prevent THEM electing a commie government. So ... so much for democracy" - You need to take your red blinkers off, Zippy, there was never the remotest prospect of Japan or Germany electing a Communist govenment post war. Italy had a strong Communist Party post war and there was a danger that it would take power but, despite the best efforts of the Soviet Union, they could not achieve this. Communism only achieved power in the Soviet zone because it was imposed by the Soviet Union and their Moscow-trained German puppets. Otherwise they would have received the same level of support they enjoy today. So dream on Zippy, Communists seldom achieve power via the ballot box, they need guns to take power.
77

Pipe smoker,

Montrose 06/09/2008 09:49:38
#34: the Abkhazians, a distinct minority in Soviet era-Abkhazia, have been ethnically cleansing the majority, Georgian population of 'Abkhazia',with Russian connivance and /or assistance, since 1992. The situation in 'South Ossetia' (the historic Georgian province of Samachablo,long before any Ossertians were settled there)is similar.
78

Pipe smoker,

Montrose 06/09/2008 09:52:08
#55 - Andrew BOD: I'd missed your input: well said.
79

Andyh,

06/09/2008 10:38:51
With sending Cheney to 'assist' Georgia the Americans have stopped poking Russia with a stick and started kicking it.
80

Mashimaro,

China 06/09/2008 18:11:41
#74 Pity they didn't meet with the same justice those faced in Nuremburg - oh yes, that was because the US wanted to use the sata from their medical experiments.

Once again, Imelda and the other numpties on this board... Japan was trying to surrender.
81

Mashimaro,

China 06/09/2008 18:39:26
#76 "Communists seldom achieve power via the ballot box, they need guns to take power."

Really. Then I wonder why the US feels the need to interfere in so many "democratic" elections in other countries? Not to mention "interventions" which of course were more sinister moves to put down the commies. Let's see...
China 1945 - 1951,
France 1947,
Italy 1947 - 1970s. The US forced the Italian government to dismiss its communist and socialist cabinate memebers in order to recieve american economic aid. Each time after that that the commies and or socialists threatened to defeat the Us-supported Christian Democrats in national elections, the CIA funded the CD candidates and trined it big economicc, political and psychological warfare guns on the people.
Greece, 1947 -49 The US took the side of the neo-fascists against the Greek left. The left, btw, had fought the Nazis. The neo facists won and instuded a bruatl regime, for which the CIA created a suitably repressive internal security agency.
The Philippines 1945 - 1953, turning the US guns again on the Huks who were still fighting the Japanese. The CIA interefered grossly inn elections, installing a series of puppets as president, culminating in the long dicatorship of marcos.
Korea, albania, Eastern Europe
Germany, 1950s the CIA orchestrated a wide-ranging camptaing of sabotage, terrorism and dirty tricks which lead to the building of the Berlin wall.

ah...why bother... dream on in your own paralel universe jimmy
82

bikewoman,

06/09/2008 21:27:14
#76 James Donald

Well said
83

James Donald,

Newbridge 06/09/2008 22:13:36
#81 Mashimaro,Red China - Dream on Zippy, many US and British operations were to counter Communist interference in these elections. The thought being that there is no merit in allowing the Communists (or any other extremists) the freedom to destroy freedom.
So don't bother with your fairly stories and dream on about your socialist paradise where Communists are not the pariahas they are in reality.
84

Mashimaro,

China 07/09/2008 03:06:22
#83 "Dream on Zippy, many US and British operations were to counter Communist interference in these elections. The thought being that there is no merit in allowing the Communists (or any other extremists) the freedom to destroy freedom."

Thank you for finally admitting what I have been telling you ALL ALONG! You people don't believe in "freedom" you believe in force. You don't believe in "democracy" that you slaughter innocent people for, you believe in manipulation so that it suits YOUR ends.

Look, you did it in Korea too, 1945 - 1953, supressing with brutal force with popular progressive organisations who had been your allies in the second world war - IN FAVOUR OF THE CONSERVATIVES WHO HAD COLLABORATED WITH THE JAPANESE. This brough in the corrupt government and, well, we know what happened there. Tell me, have those war criminals of yours been punished yet? Or are they also running for the presidency? Do you remember what we learned in 1999? that US soldiers machine gunned hundreds of helpless citizens in Korea and killed hundreds of others when they blew up the bridges they were crossing... yeah... THANKS UNLCE SAM!
Oi, Albania, remember what the west did there? eh? 1949 to 1953, infiltrating Albania with emigre guerrillas to overthrow the communist government - under the "you die, we cry" policy. Trying to install a new government that had collabourated with italian facist and nazis... WOW.
Want to talk about what you did in Guatemala? How the CIA overthrew the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Jacobo Arbenz? We know how THAT turned out eh? Death squads, torture, disappearances, mass executions ... all for some land to grow fruit! nice one. Yeah! What was his crime again? Arbenz - not much but the US people were TOLD he might turn red. ha ha ha ha
85

Mashimaro,

China 07/09/2008 03:18:25
Hey, Jimmy, want to talk about what the west did in Costa Rica to President Jose Figueres. Trying to overthrow him, trying twice to assassinate him. His crime? He wasn't tough enough on the country's leftists. Oh, and he established diplomatic ties with the USSR and eastern Europe - clearly a terrible man.
Remember Indonesia, do you? Sukarno? What a whack job he was, eh? Trying to make trips to the USSR, China AND Washington. Refusing to crack down on the peaceful, legal communist party that was making electoral gains... what do you guys do to him? Oh yeah, that false, sleazy sex movie, trying to assassinate him, throwing money into the country's elections, joining forces with dissident military officers to wage a full-scale war which included bombing runs by US pilots. Wow...Jimmy... all I can say is... WOW.
Vietnam - wow... 2 million dead later, the land and the gene pool poison