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Shareholders count cost of bail-out deal



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Published Date: 14 October 2008
THE merger of HBOS and Lloyds TSB was dealt a blow yesterday after shareholders were told that they would receive less for their shares as the government announced plans to take about a 40 per cent stake in the new "superbank".
Questions were also being asked about whether the deal was still necessary and whether HBOS could instead survive as an independent institution.

Opposition parties expressed concern at the wisdom of merging the two banks after Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, announced the government would spend up to £17 billion taking a stake of up to 44 per cent.

The Liberal Democrats said the merger should be reconsidered, while the Tory grandee Sir George Young also raised concerns with the Chancellor, Alistair Darling, about the "difficult commercial considerations" the merged bank would face.

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, expressed concern that the Treasury could lose massive amounts in corporation tax if future HBOS profits were compromised, while the SNP's Treasury spokesman at Westminster, Stewart Hosie, appeared dismayed that the merger was the only option on the table.

When the initial rescue of HBOS was announced last month, the government said it would waive City competition rules to allow Lloyd TSB to purchase the Edinburgh-based bank, as it avoided the need for a taxpayer-funded bail-out.

But this fuelled immediate concerns about branch closures, thousands of job losses and the effect on competition as the new institution would hold nearly one-third of the UK mortgage market and more than £300 billion of deposits. Under the deal announced by the Prime Minister yesterday, the government would take £3 billion of preference shares in HBOS and up to £8.5 billion of ordinary shares, depending on the take-up by private investors.

In addition, it would take a £5.5 billion stake in Lloyds TSB, of which £1 billion would be preference shares.

At the same time, Lloyds TSB announced that its offer to HBOS shareholders had been reduced from 0.83 shares for every HBOS share to 0.605 shares. This valued HBOS at around £6.9 billion.

Yesterday, the share price in both banks dropped by 27 per cent, with Lloyds TSB ending the day at 162p and HBOS at 90p.

Lord Thurso, the Lib-Dem business spokesman, told The Scotsman that the merger should be halted unless there was a compelling reason that it had to go ahead. He suggested splitting HBOS into its two parts and "nursing" the Bank of Scotland back to health.

He said: "If the rescue that has taken place over the last week had taken place three weeks ago, it's highly unlikely anybody would be trying to push HBOS and Lloyds TSB together.

"Given the importance of HBOS to Scotland's economy, we have to ask the question whether maintaining the merger deal is in the best interests of the country. At the very least it should be revisited.

"We would certainly be looking to see if there was any way in which it could be kept as an independent bank. If it proves to be absolutely necessary, that is a different matter. But I think it's absolutely right to relook at that in the light of the enormously changed circumstances."

Mr Darling yesterday made clear that the government investment in the banks was conditional on the merger proceeding. But he added: "The decision on a merger is a matter for those two boards and, ultimately, for their shareholders."

The First Minister wants to ensure that HBOS investors are protected, but is understood to have concerns about the long-term aspects of a merger – and the lack of competition with two huge banks effectively operating under state control.

The SNP hierarchy would have preferred to see the Treasury make clear that its offer to invest in HBOS and Lloyds TSB was available to both banks separately and not merely once their merger had been completed. "There is something very duplicitous going on," one well-placed source told The Scotsman.


So could independent Scotland afford £32bn banks bail-out?

THE case for independence has been critically damaged by the global crisis, opponents of the SNP claimed yesterday.

As Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling stepped in to save Scotland's two biggest banks, the Scottish Government tried to avoid questions over how an independent Scotland would have coped with the international crisis. A spokesman for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said he would "not speculate on a theoretical future event" and refused to say whether he believed an independent Scotland could have bailed out its banks to the tune of £32 billion.

However, he insisted the SNP would still try to push through a referendum bill in 2010, even though if people voted Yes to independence, Scotland's two main banks would be owned by a "foreign" UK government.

The First Minister also refused to comment on the fate of Iceland, which, until the collapse of its banking system, had been held up by the SNP as an example of what Scotland should aim for. The Iceland "success story" is still featured on the SNP's website.

However, Mr Salmond said Norway, another member of the "arc of prosperity" hailed by the Nationalists, had been able to come up with a £35 billion rescue package for its banks and was protected by a £200 billion sovereign oil fund. "By contrast with the UK, Norway is a sea of stability," he said. "This crisis has taken place within existing UK constitutional arrangements. It is just fanciful and self-serving nonsense for anyone to pretend that large countries haven't been affected by this."

But opponents say the security offered by the UK being the fourth largest economy in the world is the best hope for the banking system to recover.

David Whitton, Labour's finance spokesman, said: "The SNP should recognise that sum (£32 billion] is the same as the whole of the Scottish Government's annual budget, and undermines Salmond's call for separation."

Anne McGuire, the Labour MP for Stirling, said: "The risks of independence have never been more starkly highlighted. While families, savers and businesses will be relieved that the UK government has stepped in to support RBS and HBOS, they only need to look at Iceland to see what would happen to an independent Scotland.

"Alex Salmond's fantasy economics held out Iceland as a model for Scotland. We can now see how dangerous that idea was. Scottish families, banks and businesses are far more secure as part of the fourth-largest economy in the world."

David Mundell, the Tories' shadow Scottish secretary, said that banks were more likely to seek security in large countries.

He went on: "Of course, Scotland could still be independent, but you have to ask what sort of independence it would be."

The full article contains 1134 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Nevsky,

Moscow 14/10/2008 00:17:11
Ireland seem to have bailed out their banks without a penny being used while Brown has secured money as foreign commercial loans as the UK does not have enough cash.

Browns (the banker's friend) is a failed chancellor and a failing PM who without the financial clout of the whole of Europe would be facing a national catastrophe!
2

Jock 1O7,

14/10/2008 00:46:03
1 Nevsky

"Ireland seem to have bailed out their banks without a penny being used"

Do your research - they're looking at E12-E16billion, for starters, and a possibility of a nationalisation within weeks.
3

Nevsky,

Moscow 14/10/2008 01:17:33
Jock 107#

Not sure where you have got the news that Ireland is going to nationalise banks or that they are as yet planning any re-capitalisation?

Can you put a link to the articles?
4

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/10/2008 02:58:51
I don't think that the Lloyds/HBOS merger will happen. After watching Barclays thumb their nose at Browns attempt to pick the shareholders pockets, I dont think Lloyds shareholders will vote for a 5 year suspension of dividends when the they could cover the Tier 1 capital shortfall simply by suspending dividends for 3 quarters.

This Banking fiasco is an indictment of the absolute failure of authorities in London to properly regulate the banks. I hope that this is a wake up call for the people of Scotland. Banking Regulation is Scotland should be devolved to the Scottish Government
5

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/10/2008 04:29:23
"Anne McGuire, the Labour MP for Stirling, said...banks and businesses are far more secure as part of the fourth-largest economy in the world."

The UK is:

6th Largest by GDP

22nd by GDP PPP per Capita.

4% of the Worlds Total Economy.

2nd Largest by External Debt.

Owes 20% of all the External Debt in the World.
6

AB_R,

14/10/2008 04:43:00
Reading an article on the BBC yesterday and there was one line on there that hasn't been repeated by virtually any other media outlet - the money the governement is prepared to loan to HBoS and Lloyds will only be given if the banks are merged.

Why are Brown and Darling so determined to see the end of HBoS?
7

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 05:31:57
Sounds to me as if independence is now a "Busted Flush", to use the failed First Minister's terminology.

I call on Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling to be knighted. I think I will start a petition.

Meanwhile, Salmond can concentrate on important issues like getting Mary Queen of Scots' bones returned. along with Scotland getting its own entry in the Eurovision Song Contest.
8

Richardinho,

14/10/2008 06:43:44
#7 Did I imagine that this banking collapse occured under the union?
9

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 14/10/2008 07:17:05
"It cam wi a bank and it will gang wi a bank"
10

why can't I use my own name???,

musselburgh 14/10/2008 07:52:15
Post #7

Explain you thinking, please?
11

Vote UKIP,

14/10/2008 07:58:02
Rescue for the Few, Debt Slavery for the Many

MICHAEL HUDSON
Counterpunch
Monday, Oct 13, 2008


http://www.prisonplanet.com/rescue-for-the-few-debt-slavery-for-the-many.html
12

1745,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 08:10:26
The take over of HBOS by LLoyds was brokered by G.Brown together with his pal Plank in Lloyds long before the markets hit rock bottom. He said he would do whatever it took to stop Scotland becoming Independent......and he has.That is unless the shareholders stand up and say NO.
13

Tynietiger,

14/10/2008 08:30:24
As Brown gave Lloyds £5.5 billions what undertakings did he get to retain HBOS HQ in Edinburgh?

All hypothetical on what an independent Scotland would have done as an independent Scotland may have prevented Halifax take over in 2001 and introduced proper financial regulations which were relaxed by Gordon Brown.
14

Mantelbrucke,

14/10/2008 08:35:38
David Whitton, Labour's finance spokesman, said: "The SNP should recognise that sum (£32 billion] is the same as the whole of the Scottish Government's annual budget, and undermines Salmond's call for separation."

Aye, I remember when I used to work the whole week and give my pay packet to my mother who also gave me back a pittance to keep me in beer and fags. The Scottish budget is something similar.
It has to be remembered that this £32 billion is not some stash of notes the UK government had under the bed. They had to borrow it. So, if they can borrow it and in doing so raise the total amount they have borrowed to date to over 650 billion quid, why could an independent Scotland not do so?
15

Pocket Dictionary,

14/10/2008 08:50:37
The government has made it clear, in exchange for the cash and semi-public ownership, no cash bonuses to be paid to the directors etc.

why don't they do that with the other public body they own - the BBC? Stamp down on the extortionate salaries paid to the BBC executives and ludicrous money given to over-paid showbiz presenters.
16

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 09:01:53
Yes indeed, what sort of independence could an independent Scotland enjoy.
The Norway Post this morning says that their government have provided £35 Billion in funds for their banks and investing £2 Billion in renewable energy in the next year.
We are stuck with Bungler Brown who saw fit to let the financial sector self regulate and Dithering Darling who put a full stop to the housing market by his delay in announcing what he was doing about stamp duty.
17

subrosa,

14/10/2008 09:15:18
'But opponents say the security offered by the UK being the fourth largest economy in the world is the best hope for the banking system to recover.'

Why is this lie continually pedaled? The UK has the 3rd worse DEBT in the world and therefore cannot be the world's 4th greatest economy.

18

subrosa,

14/10/2008 09:19:30
# 6 AB_R, 14/10/2008 04:43:00

I'll give you one guess? Got it? Good. Disgrace that Brown and Darling are prepared to sacrifice Scotland in order to keep their jobs.

At least Alex Salmond is doing his utmost to see what can be rescued from this disaster and hopefully his meeting today will have some positive ideas.

19

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 14/10/2008 09:20:00
I cannot see the shareholders touching this deal with a barge pole. The best laid schemes of mice and governments.
20

"Hoots" Fandango,

Hamilton 14/10/2008 09:44:50
10
why can't I use my own name???,

Post #7

"Explain you thinking, please?"

He read it in the Telegraph.
21

Buckfastleigh,

bahamas 14/10/2008 09:46:35
This is nothing less than a calculated state takeover at our expense. Westminster PLC is a socialist UK nationalist ploy to pirate away Iceland assets, Scottish banks and defraud poor shareholders of their lifes savings. Broon ought to be held for 90 days under his own laws on piracy.
22

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 09:48:41
19 Subrosa
"Disgrace that Brown and Darling are prepared to sacrifice Scotland in order to keep their jobs."

Please tell me how pumping in £30bn or so of taxpayers money to save the two major financial institutions in Scotland can be construed as "sacrifice Scotland"
23

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 09:54:19
18 subrosa
"Why is this lie continually pedaled? The UK has the 3rd worse DEBT in the world and therefore cannot be the world's 4th greatest economy."

In terms of total GDP the UK is the fourth or fifth biggest economy in the world. That is widely recognised. Debt does not prevent an economy being big. The USA has huge debt but is still, by some margin , the biggest economy in the world.
24

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 09:59:31
18 subrosa
PS the USA jas the biggest debt in the world and the biggest economy. There is no contradiction in this.

A company like Vodafone which is worth tens of billions might have a debt of £5bn. A corner shop worth £500,000 might have a debt £300,000. Are you saying that the corner shop is a bigger company because it has a smaller debt?
25

famous 15,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 11:25:18
Butch Cassidy had the grace to wear a mask. Brown and Darling are barefaced............
26

Memyself&I,

14/10/2008 11:28:38
#1 Nevsky, you are a clown. Every post you make is misinformed drivel. You just open your mouth and let your belly rumble without having a clue what you are talking about.
Gordon Brown has done a fantastic job over the last couple of weeks.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8dd88ed2-9942-11dd-9d48-000077b07658.html
27

Memyself&I,

14/10/2008 11:30:38
#12 Nutter. Utter p1sh.
Vote against the merger and it is bye bye HBOS.
28

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/10/2008 11:33:07
#25 Ugly George

"In terms of total GDP the UK is the fourth or fifth biggest economy in the world. That is widely recognised. Debt does not prevent an economy being big. The USA has huge debt but is still, by some margin , the biggest economy in the world."

Your stats are way out of date. By GDP the UK ranks 5th as of 2007 by the World Bank.
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP.pdf

By GDP PPP you are ranked 8th.
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP_PPP.pdf

It is true that having a large external debt by itself is not an indication of the weakness of your economy to external pressures. What is important is the GDP to Debt ratio. Just as you would look at a company and analyze its ability to meet its debt obligations.

The US has a ratio of GDP to external debt of 99% which means that each year their economy produces as much in goods and services as its total external debt.

The UK has a ratio of GDP to external debt of 490% which means that all the goods and services produced over the next 4 years will not even come close to equaling how much you owe right now.

You should also realize that these ratios and the UK's rank will be considerably worse when the 2008 statistics are released.

Since the UK is dependent on Financial Services for a greater proportion of its GDP than any other country in the world you should expect to get pipped by France for 5th spot in GDP ranking, and by Brazil for 8th spot in GDP PPP Ranking. Which will make you the country that is just ahead of Italy in both Ranks.
29

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 14/10/2008 11:43:22
#30 Me Myself and I

"Gordon Brown has done a fantastic job over the last couple of weeks."

Yeh, he managed to save the banks from the mismanagement that he oversaw for the last 9 of 10 years.

He has gotten a jump in his polling numbers, this may be his last chance to call an election where he has an outside chance of winning.

A year now with the economy in the middle of a recession he would not stand a snowballs chance in hell. Do you think the might start believing his own spin about how "Brown Saves The World" and actually have the cojones to call an election?


30

Memyself&I,

14/10/2008 11:59:39
#32 I'm undecided, by your tone you appear to think I'm a fan of Browns, so for the record, I ain't.

Nothing like a good war to rally the troops, and this is a war. Haha. I'd say he'd have a better chance of winning while we are in recession. Considered a safe pair of hands etc.
31

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 12:01:38
31 KampungHighlander
I am not defending the current handling of the UK economy. I have said on many occassions that I feel that Gordon Brown has presided over a wreckless increase in govt spending and hance has developed debt.
The point I was making was one of perspective about size of economy. In this respect, I find your initial comment rather bizarre. I mentioned that the UK had the "fourth or fifth" biggest total GDP in the world as an indication of the size of the economy. You then confirmed that with the most recent figures available and then said my stats were "way out of date". As I said- bizarre. I know that if you take GDP in terms of Purchasing Power Parity the UK is not 5th but this is another measure which indicates the level of costs - it does not impinge on the overall size of the economy.

The UK may well slip down this year as a result of its dependence on financial services. I am not disputing that. We shall see what happens.
32

John south of Soutra,

14/10/2008 12:45:37
Rufus was it not a bit early in the morning to have been drinking - you must be having a laugh because if yuo are serious about what you say then you must be drunk or have been taking some sort of drugs
33

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 14/10/2008 13:23:54
I only hope that Alex Salmond is feeling proud of himself. A bandit.
34

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 13:52:25
well that does it for HBOS, great deal for the calamity twins, there was an outside chance that the shareholders would vote this proposal down, but with one quick underhand move after another they have put an end to that idea. they now own enough shares to push this thru, well done another dark day for Scotland.
35

Turkey Jerky,

14/10/2008 14:36:18
All of this assumes that the bail-out is a success. I think it's a little to early to conclude this.

It may have an effect to de-value the currency in the world, which may not be a bad thing as it will make exporting easier, however it will make importing more expensive. For an island nation this is not really a good position.

An independent Scotland would have ALL of the taxes paid by Scotland in Scotland. Not the budget handed over from down south. So the = to budget argument doesn't wash.

This article is poorly thought out. This "bail-out" still may cost scotland more than NOT bailing out the banks. It is a risk. Something that the government has chosen to take after seeing how well it worked out for the banks.
36

shivago8,

livingston 14/10/2008 14:40:05
expected loyalty shares for staying with the halifax

Shafted with the merger with Lloyds TSB.

Shafted with getting 73 shares for every 100.

Shafted again whe told now getting 60 shares for every 100.

Trusted banks --not any more.

Now moving everything out of the Halifax,halfway out now.

Disgusted,dismayed,teed off.
lost a lot of money in a place that should be secure.
Has the politits and bank officials still got shares with them
I DOUBT IT,What a bloody country,now looking at emigrating,BLIAR BROWN DARLING MANDELSON What a disgrace they are to our country.
Their bank a/c,s should be opened up for scrutiny
37

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 14:40:20
#35 John

Nobel Economics Prize winner lauds Brown as potential economic world saviour!!!

This is widely quoted in todays newspapers.

Did you get that? No less than a Nobel Economics Prize winner is saying brown is a world saviour.

I would guess he knows more than you and I put together.
38

Doh,

14/10/2008 17:19:25
#40

You are of course qouting him out of context.

You might not like the title of his book:

http://krugmanonline.com/

39

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 14/10/2008 17:26:26
These Bail outs aint gonna work, the whole financial system of the planet is going to collapse very soon, and then civilisation itself will follow soon after.
40

Nevsky,

Moscow 14/10/2008 19:13:15
40 Rufus#

So what? He did not exactly 'laud' him as a matter of fact. He is an out of touch American who does not even seem to know that Brown (in encouraging the misguided policies in the first place) has led to the UK's performance being slightly behind that of Iceland.

Please try and post something of substance sometime, you are like a Labour parrot without an original thought in it's head!

Ever thought of standing for the party..squak squak?
41

grannie,

Glasgow 14/10/2008 22:19:34
Can't help but feel all the boys at the top who were receiving millions in bonuses might have their savings in these same banks and the Government bail out means THEY lose nothing.How come these people always come out winning?
42

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 22:19:35
Oh no, I have been savaged by Nevsky the Norwegian Ambassador.

I wont sleep tonight.

Meanwhile Gordon Brown is the saviour of the world's Economy as Salmond dithers about looking for Mary Queen of Scots remains.
43

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 14/10/2008 23:52:33
21

No idiot boy the government wont own it we will you me and all the other tax payers in the country.
We are the share holders now not the Liebour party.
Of course that doesnt mean they wont act like they own it and arbitrarily sell it to Lloyds for a song and phuq over the other share holders but then they will leave themselves wide open to legal action by the other share holders.
Like I said numbnuts the best laid schemes of mice and Governments especially incompetant corrupt and immoral governments.

 

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