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Wednesday, 9th December 2009

European law spells end for traditional Scottish sporran

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Published Date: 06 May 2009
EUROPEAN politicians yesterday spelled the end of the traditional Scottish sporran by voting to ban the sale of seal products across the continent.
The move will mean the manufacture and sale of sealskin sporrans will be illegal from next autumn. This will affect existing unsold stock and also the second-hand trade.

The vast majority of sporrans worn with the traditional Scottish national dress are made from sealskin.

The governments of individual European nations still need to back the law, but officials said that would be a formality and the ban was expected to take effect in October.

The ban, aimed at ending the cruel slaughter of seals, was welcomed by campaigners and most political parties yesterday, although some criticised EU interference in British affairs.

Animal rights activists said there were alternatives, and suggested that most people would not want to wear a sealskin sporran if they knew the suffering caused in creating it.

However, members of the Highland dress industry hit out at the decision and said it would spell the end for the traditional Scottish sporran.

The industry is now expected to turn to alternative materials, such as synthetic fabrics or rabbit fur, which experts claim do not have the same quality and are not traditional.

They say the ban will cause the end of part of Scotland's heritage and destroy a tradition going back hundreds of years. One industry member, who did not want to be named for fear of reprisals, said the ban was going to "destroy Scottish heritage".

He added: "I don't know what we are going to do. This is something we have been dreading.

"Synthetic sporrans don't look the same. Nothing else has that kind of appealing texture.

"It's going to have serious implications. I think lots of places will close down."

He said he did not agree with inhumane killing of seals, but argued they were overpopulated so culls would still be needed.

Duncan Chisholm, chairman of the Kilt Makers Association of Scotland, added that there must be a humane way to continue to get seal pelts for sporrans.

Canada's east coast seal hunt is the world's largest, killing an average of 300,000 harp seals annually. Curbing the Canadian hunt was the focus of the EU bill because of the size of the cull and the way seals were killed – either clubbed or shot with rifles.

Josey Sharrad, a campaigner from the International Fund for Animal Welfare, said: "There are lots of cruelty-free alternatives that we would recommend to sporran makers. I think most people buying sporrans don't realise they come from seals."

She said most sealskin on sale in the UK was for sporrans.

It is estimated that up to £500,000 worth of sealskins pass through the UK every year. The trade is mainly explained by agents who import the pelts and re-export them to Russia and the Far East, as well as the purchases made by the sporran industry.

A spokesman for Ecostorm, which carried out an investigation into sealskins coming into Scotland, said the supply chain was "complex".

"There were a number of origins. Some of it was coming from supposedly sustainable seal culls or hunts, including those in Greenland. What we found, though, was that many dealers were misleading the customers by saying they were made from Greenland skins when they were actually coming from Canada."

He added investigations showed the UK had become a major trading hub for seal pelts, with the end product often being sold in other European countries or China because seal-fur clothing was not in fashion here.

He added that whereas sealskin coats were not fashionable, sporrans had until recently not been the focus of attention.

"It's a very unlikely item to link to this sort of issue," he said.

"The impression I have is that it's something people buy as a tourist trinket or fancy dress."

The Canadian seal cull has become an annual showdown between campaigners and the authorities in Canada.

Harp seals are killed for their fur and other byproducts, including oil, meat and body parts prized for aphrodisiac purposes. MEPs endorsed the bill yesterday, which called seal hunting "inherently barbaric", by a majority of 550 to 49.

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "The EU ban won't stop people buying sporrans made from other materials."

However, a spokesman for Ukip said: "Governments should not determine these things and most certainly a government we cannot vote for.

"To boycott seal products should be the decision of each and every consumer and not to boycott them should be the decision of each and every consumer."

Labour MEP Arlene McCarthy, who helped steer the ban through the European Parliament, said: "This law is a victory for people power and a credit to the campaigners involved.

"The vast majority of people across the UK and Europe are horrified by the cruel clubbing to death of seals.

"This law will ensure there is no European market for these products and put an end to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of seals every year."

More than 400 MEPs launched a seal ban campaign in 2006 after growing complaints from the public. That prompted a European Commission plan in 2008 for a new law.

Yesterday's vote in Strasbourg excludes the relatively small trade in seal products upon which the Inuit people depend for their livelihoods.

Robbie Marsland, UK director of the International Fund for Animal Welfare, which has campaigned for 40 years to end seal hunting, said: "The parliament has hammered the final nail in the coffin of the sealing industry's market in the EU.

"MEPs clearly heeded the tens of thousands of e-mails, postcards and messages sent by citizens in the UK and across Europe who opposed commercial seal hunting on the grounds of its unacceptable cruelty."

The seal products will be banned from sale from 2010.

However, Norway and Canada have said they will submit complaints against the EU to the World Trade Organisation, claiming the ban is in breach of global trade rules.

The International Fur Trade Federation claimed the seal ban would not help animal welfare and disregarded international trade rules. In a statement it said seals would continue to be hunted because they had to be managed.

Chairman Andreas Lenhart said: "MEPs have rushed through bad legislation in their eagerness to garner what they think will be public appeal just before they are up for re-election."

Dion Dakins, from NuTan Furs in Newfoundland, Canada, said overpopulation of seals was becoming a major problem that would affect fish stocks.

He accused the EU of double standards: "It's a wake-up call for our industry that propaganda can rule."

The trade in sealskin is thought to be worth about £3.7 million annually.

The new law still needs the backing of EU governments, which is likely to be a formality since national envoys have already endorsed the bill.

Move to synthetic sporrans will lead to the death of a truly great tradition

SEAL sporrans are traditional – and this ban is going to mean that alternatives will have to be found. The reality is that we might end up – unfortunately – with synthetic sporrans.

More pony hair is going to have to be used and some of the sporran makers are already experimenting with rabbit skins. It is quite sad that it has come to this.

Traditionally, seal has been used for the sporran for the last 100 years. This is going to change that tradition and it really is the end of an era.

Synthetic sporrans are not traditional. The tradition has always been to have a pure wool tartan and any adornments have always been made from leather of some sort. So synthetic sporrans will look artificial.

Sporran makers will be affected because years of work has gone into using seal skin. They will probably have to experiment for a while with whatever alternatives they can think of.

Whereas day-wear sporrans are mostly made from plain leather, occasionally with a seal front as well, evening sporrans are usually made from seal skin. In the past, going back to Victorian times, dress sporrans were often made from hair.

Long goat hair was popular and then from the middle of the last century horse hair has been used for the hair sporrans. However, they are not as popular for dress sporrans now and these days it is mostly just the pipers that wear them.

Instead, for formal attire it has been the seal skin that has become very popular. It used to be the white seal skin that was very popular. That was made from the baby seal and they were banned quite a number of years ago. Since then adult seals have been used.

I could agree with the ban on using baby seals because of the way they were killed. I felt that was something that in the interest of animal welfare was a good idea. However, with the grey seal there is a cull of them from time to time and these skins are fairly plentiful. So I feel that it is sad that this is happening.

Sporrans are not something that can be done without – they are a necessity with kilts. Whereas the kilt pin is purely decorative, the sporran is something that is essential. And that means changing one of the great traditions associated with our national dress.

• Duncan Chisholm is chairman of Chisholms Highland Dress and chairman of the Kilt Makers Association.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 May 2009 11:47 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Kilts
 
1

,

05/05/2009 22:16:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 06/05/2009 00:24:43

Secession not Independence, time to become The Far Eastern Maritime Province of CANADA
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 00:47:16


Could we not just use seal skins of seals that died naturally, would that not do?


4

Edward,

06/05/2009 01:03:51
'The governments of individual European nations still need to back the law, but officials said that would be a formality and the ban was expected to take effect in October'
Question - Does this come under Scottish Law or UK Law?
I think it comes under Scottish Law, something the EU ha yet to get to grips with. In the past in the previosu Holyrood Administration, they would just rubber stamp what ever they were told to do.But now we have a Scottish Government that has in its powers to ignore the dictat of Westminster and can actually ignore Brussels. Now I know this might some how be a bit difficult to swallow.But also enshrined under EU law is the right for individual governments (nationalor regional) to opt out if its felt that any change in EU law would affect the welfare or employment of the member state/region
5

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

06/05/2009 01:04:21
Nice one...
6

Edward,

06/05/2009 01:05:06
By the way, why when talking about seal skin sporran's does it have the picture of a normal leather sporran?
7

,

06/05/2009 01:14:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 01:28:09

Edward ~5

"But now we have a Scottish Government"

The problem being a little like our 'Banks', they the Scottish Government, have very little guts to stand-up, and be counted, they all appear just to go into hiding.

Look at this soo called Swine-Flu epedemic, most coutries affected, have had their Leaders on the News and on Television News making comment.

All we do is leave it to poor Nichola, doing her best!, to-which she has done, but the question is,...

..."Where is Salmond!?

The "Sporn", will get the Ban, and as usual, we will all lie-back, and let it happen!

9

Edward,

06/05/2009 01:41:52
#10 Charles Linskaill
Your an idiot!
We are talkig about the ban on Seal Skins and the effect on the Sporran industry
As regards the Swine Flu, it may have escaped your notice, but Nicola Sturgeon is actually the Health Secretary, which is why she has been involved in this health matter. In England it has been the English Health Secretary, Alan Johnson.It doesnt warent having a Prime Minsister or First Minister to give news conferences
10

Edward,

06/05/2009 01:43:28
According to the Daily Telegraph, who also have this story, they stated 'The EU ban exempts Inuit seal products as long as they are only for "subsistence" or "traditional" purposes'

As Sporrans are traditional and a traditional industry that make them exempt! end off!

11

Am Fògarrach,

06/05/2009 01:47:32
This move is another example of EU overkill: "This will affect existing unsold stock and also the second-hand trade."

Duncan Chisholm, chairman of Chisholms Highland Dress and chairman of the Kilt Makers Association, points out that, "with the grey seal there is a cull of them from time to time and these skins are fairly plentiful. So I feel that it is sad that this is happening.'
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 01:53:46

Edward 11,

Think what you like, but this 'Sporran Ban' will take place, as regards Nichola and Allan, yes!, they are their to represent issue, but even Gordon Brown, has made Television News as regards to interview on the current Flu,

One asks,.."Where is Salmond" on this current issue?

Think they will save our Sporran, then think again, they will not!

Just like BOS and RBS!



13

Am Fògarrach,

06/05/2009 01:56:24
#12 Edward -

Sorry Edward, your exemption won't fly. The EU will interpret their plan to mean the exemption is only for "subsistence" or "traditional" purposes of the Inuit themselves.

Don't you already know that Scots don't count in the EU?
14

Fifi la Bonbon,

06/05/2009 01:57:00
Some bam from Oz at #9 is worried about the little cuddley-wuddley wee seals with their cute wee nosey wozeys and playful wee ways. Aw da babba!

Then she says the people who do it are sub humans and "f#ck Scottish heritage".

That was friendly, wasn't it? I think we should test out platypus and koala skin to see how they would do for sporrans.
15

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 01:57:39
jamtart
Absolutely
Not allowed to wear it but we can beat it's young to death
It has been illegal to sell seal skin in Scotland for years as far as I know.
I've got a wee mate who makes sporans out of some "happier" leather. Really naaice
16

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 01:59:31


Am Fògarrach ~15,

"Don't you already know that Scots don't count in the EU?"

Exactly!, and they never will.

Now who is the "idiot"?



17

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 02:02:38
#18 fifi

??????????????????????? what?
18

Edward,

06/05/2009 02:03:18
#15
Actually within EU law there is an allocation for exemptions to laws, if it is found to affect tradional manufacture.The problem is, we have been brain washed by Westminster into thinking what ever Eu law is passed in Brussels, it has to be adhered to.
With previous Scottish Executive, they were not allowed to question any EU laws and were expected to rubber stamp everything that Westminster told them to .
Westminster them selves are not shy about inserting exemptions, when it suites.
I think the Scottish Government have a strong arguement to have Sporrans exempted
19

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 02:04:26
#16 sorry ifif

??????????????????? what?
20

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:06:11

Edward ~20,

Just put your money on the table, and I will see you in October!


21

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 02:07:40
they have effin bull "fights" every weekend all over spain
towns and cities
exemptions?
22

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:09:56

#23'

Rome, has clout.

23

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 02:12:48
truth told
spain has never paid one penny towards the eu
mrs thatcher decided not to take a rightful grant leaving us with what we have now
24

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:15:52


#24,

Maybe I should of said,

"Rome, has clout",, Unlike Us!

25

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 02:18:25
#numero viente quatro

Charles

my name, for the moment, is ferryport

I am not a number, yet.

?por qui roma?
26

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:25:38


FerryPort,

Sorry!, me getting lazy at this time of the morning.


27

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:28:26

"Lazy"

Maybe, like some in our soo called Scottish Government?
28

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:31:15

Or should that be, "Laid-Back" and just let it happen as normal!?

29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:40:51


If one looks at the picture in general what do we see?

We have Asian shops selling Scottish culture!

We have immigrants coming into Scotland, making change by their droves!

We are now multicultured!

We are lucky to have the Scottish Flag flying at Edinburgh Castle!

We all have to accept Scotland has Changed, and old Scottish Traditions are NO-MORE!


30

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 02:51:12
that's quite okay
but
seal bashing and bull so called fightin an bear baiting and horse fighting .......
we are removed from our role of gaurdmanship to raiders
or
was/is that myth?
31

Am Fògarrach,

06/05/2009 02:52:05
Charles Linskaill #18 -

What is this "idiot" bit? My post #15 did not use the word. Please be a little more careful. I don't want to have to start attacking you.
32

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:53:35
Ferryport,

If it's been illegal to sell seal skin in Scotland for years then what's this article about? Something doesn't make sense there.
33

Am Fògarrach,

06/05/2009 02:56:35
#20 Edward -

Thank you for pointing that EU exemption out to me. I learn something new every day from good posts.

I am only too aware of the remainder of your post.
34

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:58:25
Charles,

Sorry, you're not quite right there. Wearing of our traditional national dress is more popular than ever. You've only got to look at the number of kilt shops and the number of people wearing them to special occassions.

I do agree though. Immigration has gone too far and we should call an immediate halt to non-EU immigrants and do what we can to limit those from the EU.
35

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 02:59:20

Am Fògarrach ~33,

Refference in the one you made comment to @also#11


36

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 03:03:51
Julian
Perhaps the army are allowed to use it.
I'm sure it's illegal to knowingly use, produce, etc for sale. A seller of seal skin in scotland is an offender. You can't buy a seal skin sporran new. It has been that way for years. 17 yrs
37

FerryPort,

06/05/2009 03:07:22
Anyway, we dont need the pelt of any animal adorning a sporan
38

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 03:21:56

Julian ~36,

I think if we get back to the topic, one will agree that the Sporran, will be banned on how it is made in future.

My diversions as in whole, Scotland is Changing, and I am not saying for the worse!, but we are extremely multicultured now, and to this effect our traditions will be of less relevant to the majority of our population, the holding on of how the Sporran is made will go, as did BOS and RBS.

Scotland is NO-MORE, in our Hands, it is a place that once was, but now in the Hands of others, the holding on to straws are no-more.

We will, of-course have our History, to-which we can be fond off, but that is what it will only be!

The sooner we accept this fact, then maybe we can all move forward.

And the Protection of our Seals, come into place!


39

W Smith,

Middle East 06/05/2009 03:30:26
More politically correct claptrap.

While we're at it, shouldn't we Scots abuse synthetic English people (plastic dummies dressed up) as opposed to real English people?
40

Julian.,

edinburgh 06/05/2009 04:25:59
Charles,

And what were sporrans made from back in the time of Robert the Bruce...or did they even have them then?
41

Am Fògarrach,

06/05/2009 04:28:28
#37 Charles Linskaill -

I made NO use of "idiot" in my post #33.

I have no clue what you are talking about with "Refference in the one you made comment to @also#11", and I don't think you have any clue either.

Whatever poster #11 called you is between you and him. I don't even know the man. Don't try to drag me into your problems. I can become very unpleasant.

Maybe you should go to bed and sleep it off.
42

Bluevoice,

Dubai, U.A.E. 06/05/2009 04:38:22
Traditions change as we evolve. Is it really so important in the scheme of things?
43

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 06/05/2009 04:52:03
Good photo all leather I see. This is no news, I have been wareing a baby seal sporran for over 30yrs. There is no change, it has been banned for the same period of time. Yes save the seals and tell that to the Inuit and the Scottish Fishermen WHO FEED 60% of the disunited kingdom their fish products..............
44

jamtart,

Beechboro Western Australia 06/05/2009 04:52:31
#16

I am not a bam from OZ as you put it.I am not a female.

We do not beat Platypus and Koala to death with clubs over here.

The people who (like yourself) seem to see no wrong in this disgusting destruction of defensless animals really do need help please see your therapist asap.

My "f#uk Scottish heritage"refered only to the knobend
in the article who is more concerned about a bag dangling between the legs than a living being.

I am a Scot and very proud of our heritage.It's trumpets like you who give us a bad name the world over.

Muppet.
45

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 06/05/2009 04:59:37
In former days in the Hebrides, seal meat was eaten and each local family owned a specific rock used by seals to rest on. One rock was always allocated to the local minister and church members would harvest seals and their meat on the minister's behalf.

Seals are among the most wasteful salmon/cod fish eaters. They are sushi gourmets, who take one bite from a salmon's belly and leave the dead body floating, ruined. When I was a 10 year old, I would be sent along the shore with a .300 rifle to shoot seals because once seals move into a bay, all the food fish flee elsewhere and suddenly there is a shortage of fish for the locals to eat.
I have watched seals here in western Canada actually swim right up onto a net and take a single bite from the salmon's body and then slide off, leaving a now unsaleable salmon carcase behind. Go to any salmon river in the world and you will see seals doing this where the river meets the tide. As salmon sells here in Vancouver at the dockside for up to $35 per fish, the fisherman loses any money he might have earned, let alone the fuel etc. he invested in go salmon fishing. For this reason, many fishermen carry a (illegal) pistol to shoot seals before they can rip off a salmon and destroy its value.
The banning of seal pelts is political correctness run amok. Nobody has mentioned shutting down slaughter houses to protect sheep, cattle or horses, often sold as meat. New born seals are chosen because their white pelts sell readily and it doesn't take long for new born seals to leave the ice floes they were born on and set off to devastate the fish that many northern Inuit depend on as a hunting-fishing society, not to mention the people of Newfoundland, one of the poorest parts of Canada who depend on seal-hunting to augment their incomes, while seals are the main food of another vanishing species - polar bears.
46

DVL,

New York 06/05/2009 05:11:35
What is this drive to homogeneity for? Does it strengthen Europe? Does it respect the diverse cultures and allow some matters best decided at the local level where they belong?

Over there as here, it is about small people holding sway over the masses. No doubt when my great grandchildren one day visit the homelands they will be greeted by plain vanilla European's concocted by some Flemish social engineering committee.
47

terry osser,

morden 06/05/2009 05:18:55
another reason to leave eu.

this is part of a concerted effort to marginalize individuality in order to bring in some pan-european culture. i dont want it.
48

Stushie,

Glesca 06/05/2009 05:21:00
Heroin is illegal, but you can still buy it next to the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh....

Buying illegal seal skin sporrans is going to appeal to a lot of people...:)
49

Anajinn,

Canada 06/05/2009 05:38:09
Knitted sporans would look cute.....hehehe...... The real problem is that they club the seals to death so that they do not damage the pelt. I can't believe that this barbarian practice has not been stopped by now. If they do need to be culled, there must be more humane ways of doing it. You don't need a whole pelt for a sporan anyway. I suppose Europe is doing the best they can to highlight the problem, and it's better than doing nothing. I think more could have been done at a political level to force an end to this practice, because I do agree that there there will be a black market for sealskin and the practice will continue. I am not sure that this was the best solution. Good try though.
50

jamtart,

Beechboro Western Australia 06/05/2009 05:38:10
#47 You are missing the point - it's not that the seals are being killed(although that does bother me)it's the manner of their death no creature deserves to die a brutal,painful death to make little bags to wear with the kilt.

Your point about the damage they do to fish may be valid although I doub't a newborn seal eats much fish before it's killed.

They also fish in California but encourage the seals at pier 39 in San Francisco-maybe their seals don't eat fish.
51

macthefierceone,

06/05/2009 06:03:46
Thank you Micheal #47 for educating the bulk of the hysterical correspondents who are too lazy to research their subject and go into print only to show their ignorance. As for the Bampot from WA, sounds like a blinkered Greenie to me, a species that has stuffed every government from here to ??? Unfortunately their pelts are absolutely worthless, more's the pity, otherwise we could declare open season on them
52

,

06/05/2009 06:13:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

Kenny A,

06/05/2009 06:16:44
4

Charles Good idea impractical, rot sets in very quickly, and trust me the stengh is grim.


9

Defenseless, have you ever seen a seal up close, 500 pounds plus, teeth like a Killer Whale and more than happy to attack.

At the extreme end of the seal scale you have elephant seals who make the loch ness monster look like a goldfish on valium.

Seals are highly predatory and distructive.

After all that I am not a fan of clubbing the little ones, but seals must be managed in some form.

By the way in Scotland most harbours have their local seal who are fed by these nasty people called fishermen
who lose a lot of gear to these beasts, and are well protected generaly.

Your comment about Scottish tradition was just plain stupid and insulting. If I was worried like you seem to be, dont worry about the seals to much, look at how aborigines in Australia are treated. After all the Tasmanians were exterminated and seals are thriving.
54

Media at One,

06/05/2009 06:18:45
The Sporran is no more Scottish than the Burkha or the Veil or the mosque -
55

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 06/05/2009 06:48:32
This is an insult to the Scottish nation and Alex Salmond must fight this with all his might and fake indignation.
56

Fifi la Bonbon,

06/05/2009 06:48:57
jamtart - lives in Oz, more Scottish than the Scots who live here. Typical of the type who want to tell us how to live our lives from afar - the type that indulge in fake festivals like the "kirkin' o' the tartan" that we never do here. We must expect them in droves this year and they will be very annoying indeed.
57

smokey joe 1,

06/05/2009 06:54:00
PC brigade gone mad AGAIN.
We eat cows dont we.
58

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 07:01:25
1 Doctor Death

Hi Rufus, new name, same old cacht.
59

Greens,

06/05/2009 07:02:08
If you are a member of certain religions it is acceptable to use traditional (cruel) methods to kill for food. If this is ok can't see the problem of twatting a few seals with clubs.
60

smokey joe 1,

06/05/2009 07:09:25

The world would be a better place without the likes of Joset sharrad.

Animals are food and clothes to humans ,get used to it Josey Sharrad.
Eat meat it keeps you alive.
61

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 07:22:33
59 Fifi la Bonbon,
“jamtart - lives in Oz, more Scottish than the Scots who live here. Typical of the type who want to tell us how to live our lives from afar - the type that indulge in fake festivals like the "kirkin' o' the tartan" that we never do here. We must expect them in droves this year and they will be very annoying indeed.”

They won’t appear at all annoying to all those employed in the tourism, hospitality, leisure, textile, transport and retail industries.

Why are cringing Unionists so uniformly disparaging about anything which is obviously to the benefit of Scotland?

62

Marac,

Central Scotland 06/05/2009 07:36:02
I don't see Norway signing up to this latest EU dictat, which is their right, not being members and having the luxury of picking and choosing which EU rules they follow.

I'm off to start a seal farm on Lewis. Hopefully I'll get funding from HIE !
63

Phil C,

06/05/2009 07:36:49
Alistair Darling's head would make a nice sporran! Brown's would be a bit dull.
64

Russell M,

Stirling 06/05/2009 07:38:33
NEVER -- not even for a moment -- doubt that the first purpose of any legislation is to insure the survival and enhancement of the bureaucracy that created that legislation. Oh sure there are an infinite number of good reasons for new laws. Such as the seemingly inherit flawed nature of humankind, called original sin in the Christian belief system. Which makes our construction of fair and functional social groupings forever short of perfection.

It's really just another form of imperialism. The Inuit people will never be a threat to Brussels therefore exceptions can be afforded. But the Scots, there heritage and traditions are too close to home. Even after being slaughtered and maimed in the hundreds of thousands on the fields of France they rise up again and again to demonstrate the power of kinship to each other and the land. Attributes which interfere with the exploitation natural resources, which include human beings.

"They (Scots) were to be treated as if they were nothing better than Africans, and the laws of their country on a level with those which regulated South American slavery." "Loyal, peaceable, and high-spirited peasantry (Scots) have been driven from their native land--as the Jews were expelled from Spain, or the Huguenots from France..." "The extermination of the Highlanders (and their cultural heritage) has been carried on for many years as systematically and relentlessly as of the North American Indians..." These excerpts were written in the Nineteenth Century. Not much has really changed.

Brussels makes a big hoo-ha of human rights but it appears that the Scots, their culture, and their heritage still don't make the cut.
65

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06/05/2009 07:40:38
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66

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/05/2009 07:56:18
Given that a) the majority of sporrans sold today are not sealskin but leather or even plastic, and b) "tradition" is yet again being used as a flag of convenience, since the use of sealskin goes back only a hundred years or so, and the wearing of sporrans as part of "highland dress" is just one more invention of Walter Scott's romantic brain.

I love the kilt for what it is, but there's no need for all the precious protectionism on display here - it's just a dressing up costume which has a useful effect on our GDP, there are plenty of varieties of it, and there's absolutely no need to club seals to death to have a nice one.
67

Phil C,

06/05/2009 08:07:21
#70 Duncan, for the second time in a week, I agree with you! What's the world coming to?

This EU directive is not anti sporran, it's anti suffering of animals. Scots must stop this sort of petty naval gazing if we are to be taken seriously.
68

Marac,

GRANGEMOUTH 06/05/2009 08:15:05
#71 Are the Norwegians petty navel gazing, or are they looking after their own interests? The Norway Post is reporting that the Norwegian Government is taking this EU decision to the World Trade Organisation as it feels it could adversely affect its maritime operations:
http://www.norwaypost.no/content/view/21981/26/
69

Boy Wonder,

06/05/2009 08:15:25
As with Ivory and other animal-based products on the endangered species list, will this ban on the sale of sealskin goods affect items that have been around a long time?? Say 50 years?

My sporran was my grandad's. I only wear it on special occassions. The same applies to several of my friends. Such things are passed down through the family.

So surely there are thousands if not a few million sporrans already in existence? Why do we need to make more anyway? Only Scots and their families wear them, don't they? Which other nationalities includes a sporran in its national dress.

Sporran industry my foot! It hasn't been much more than a cottage indutry for the past century!

And sealskin isn't necessary! My grandad's was made from the hide of a stag and the hair came from a Jacob's goat in Midlothian.

Leave the seals alone and make do with something else. Our ancestors (those of us who were not the landed gentry anyway) learned to make do with what scraps they could get! I suggest sporran-makers do likewise.

And Charles ... get your meds you old goat and shut the hell up! You're only making yourself look worse!





70

Wynn,

GLASGOW 06/05/2009 08:40:02
This EU sporran issue could be the Jenkins Ear we need for Scottish Independence.
71

Helen,

06/05/2009 08:43:20
I'm delighted at the ban. Sporrans can be made of other materials. Common sense must prevail. There is no need for seals to be brutally massacred for people to wear sporrans.
72

Xena - Warrior Princess,

06/05/2009 08:51:12
For once I agree with the EU, this is brilliant news. I have also sent an email to the Canadian Ambassador through the IFAW website.
73

Brodric,

06/05/2009 09:07:27
It is absolute nonsense if existing supplies of seal sporrans are not allowed to be sold/used.

I love animals. I am not vegetarian though I feel sad when I see the little lambs frollicking in the fields and know that I will probably be eating one of them in the near future. I wish it wasn't like this, but it is.

Regarding the seals, perhaps it is necessary to have a cull once a year. I don't know enough. But, IF it is necessary, then it must be carried out humanely (as jamtart said above). No clubbing. And it is wasteful to throw away parts of animals that are culled - and perhaps this also means the meat. Its not so long ago that seal was eaten all over the lands which had seals in their coastal waters. Its almost sinful to waste possible source of food and fabric.

I would prefer there was no need to cull. But the EU and governments must ensure that such culls are carried out with animal welfare experts present, ban or fine those breaking strict rules, and ensure that there is no waste.
74

TREV,

Poland 06/05/2009 09:14:56
While I have sympathy with a seal-skin ban, I wonder if it is not possible to allow the sale of products already made before the ban. Perhaps only certified sporran makers could be licensed and the sporran come with a certificate of age. That might also allow a second hand trade (and boost the prices).

As for killing Scottish tradition... wasn't killing your neighbouring clan once a big tradition too? Ah, the good old days!
75

,

06/05/2009 09:19:22
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76

Isonomia,

Lenzie 06/05/2009 09:24:45
Street cats, better still the hides of brussels borocrats!
77

Lederblix,

06/05/2009 09:30:16
I think sporrans should be made from grey squirrel fur. This would speed up the extermination of these animals which are threatening the red squirrel population in Scotland (and elsewhere).
78

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06/05/2009 09:33:16
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79

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 09:36:34
#31 I agree there is no more Scottish culture, we have waved 'Tat -ty -buy' to that. I think we are fools to have let it go. Did we sell it to the Singhs or did they steal it! The SNP slogan 'Best for Scotland' even sounds like the name of a tartan tat shop 'Best Fae Scotland'

Hogmanay will go next!
'Should auld acquaintance be forgot,
And never brought to mind?
Should auld acquaintance be forgot
And auld lang syne? '
80

voltaire's janny,

06/05/2009 09:47:21
If the seals are no tae be culled, or regulators cannae enforce humane farming then the sporran makers need only head out the A71 tae Livingston. Every hundred yard or so just scoop up a dead badger. Job done.
81

The Tin Man,

06/05/2009 09:51:55
But we will still be able to use an entire wolf's head as a sporran?

Hoots mon the noo!
82

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 09:57:13
Why do we listen to these idiots?

If the Scottish Government were worth half their salt, they would be resolving to fight this madness...

However, with their track record of embracing everything that restricts our freedom, they will no doubt stand firmly behind it.

Kiss goodbye to yet another vestage of the days when we could make our own decisions about things that affected OUR lives.
83

,

06/05/2009 10:00:30
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84

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 10:01:14
...And judging by some of the comments, it seems that a great many of you are too blinkered to see what the idiotic government we are stuck with are actually doing to our freedom.

For christs sake WAKE UP before it's too late. This proposed ban is NOT to be welcomed. It is stupid and without justification. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get themselves educated and stop listening to the propaganda.
85

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 10:02:16
The best way of dealing with "animal rights" protestors is the way that Gene Hunt dealt with one on Ashes to Ashes the other night.
86

The Tin Man,

06/05/2009 10:05:14
I guess we are still allowed to pull a fish out of a river and batter it over the head with an Irn Bru bottle. As long as no-one is looking.
87

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 10:05:24
'Fancy dress' is just about what Scottish 'Highland Dress' is, and a right lot of charlies the Scots look in it. Like Harry Lauder, Andy Stewart and the White Heather Club.

Most of those garbed in kilts etc, etc, have no right of claim to any tartan--a lot of pseudo, shortbreadtin poncers.

'Tradition' my a%*se.
88

The Tin Man,

06/05/2009 10:07:06
...whilst wearing a full-wolf's-head sporran.

Hoots mon!
89

Charles Linskaill,

Mobile, but not killing seals. 06/05/2009 10:08:34

#87

Fuel Head, Exactly! And just what I am trying to get across!

90

The Tin Man,

06/05/2009 10:10:25
#92 Hermitage

Well, 'Scottish national dress' was invented by the British army in the 19th century. Skirts? :-)

I believe they also came up with the neck-tie. Must have had a great sense of humour.

Too bad about the dangly bit not being made out of a seal any more.
91

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 10:15:25
Aside of the opposing views on the matter, I'm sick to the back teeth with all this European intervention from the dimensions of a sugar cube to the thickness of the loo roll.

If they don't have meaty business to occupy their time, don't pay them their attendance allowances and THEN they'll scurry off.

F O E - appropriate no?
92

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 10:21:10
#89 What are you suggesting we do? Vote for the other guys? Do all these forums eventually become a heated debate between Unionists and SNP supporters?
How about an edible sporran made from a couple of chapatis and some pakorra. Maybe not, that might not be PC, now we can't have that.
Scottish Culture has been turbanated, turbanised and it should now be turbanned forever. RIP
Good-bye my Scotland, I loved you dearly.

'And here's a hand, my trusty fiere,
And gie's a hand o' thine;
And we'll tak' a right gude-wi*ly waught,
For auld lang syne.'

How funny! I wasn't able to post the exact words of Auld Lang Syne - due to unsuitable words! Ha!Ha!Ha!
93

Banana Heid,

Ardrossan 06/05/2009 10:29:25
Get a bespoke More ethical sporran here http://www.wildboardesigns.com/ No Sealskin...
94

Hilary,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 10:47:52
God help us all, you lot don't half parrot an unmitigated load of paranoid c**p.

Edward - Scotland Act says the Haolyrood cannot legislate contrary to EU law. End of. Does not matter if Wee Eck or Saint Andrew are in power, simple legal fact. And what the "level playing field" that we are so keen on is all about.

Russell - you really, really believe that this is about a deliberate effort by the EU - of which we are a part, to destroy Scottish culture and neglect Scottish sacrifices in wars past.
Do you have ANY idea how silly andf offensive that sounds?

Why not ask WWF, IFAW and everyone else why they, and elected national governments, have been pushing for this ban?
It is not some ivory-tower plan from Brussels but a legislative response to political will around Europe.

Grow up and stop shooting the messenger.
95

Horrible Cankers @Cyber Shebeen,

06/05/2009 11:03:49
If you find it unacceptable that a human baby should be clubbed to death or stabbed in the stomach with a hooked instrument...then it is also unacceptable for the baby animal of another species to die this way...they both feel fear, confusion and agony...they are both helpless and vulnerable and rely on their mother to protect them....think about it...
96

Lianachan,

Highlands 06/05/2009 11:04:34
Pretty odd timing, given that seals are suffering so badly from over-population in some parts of the Highlands & Islands that there's serious discussion of a cul.
97

Liz,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 11:05:22
Why are the rights of seals held so much higher than many other animals?
From what I read the seal population in Canada needs managed to be sustainable (much like culling deer here in Scotland). What is wrong with making use of some the the by products?
All this fuss because seals are viewed as 'cute'. No one complains about what goes on in our very own slaughter houses. We still allow halal slaughter for example, which is as barbaric (if not worse) as culling seals.
98

,

06/05/2009 11:20:49
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99

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 11:24:51
#97:

"What are you suggesting we do? Vote for the other guys? Do all these forums eventually become a heated debate between Unionists and SNP supporters?"

I'm neither a unionist nor a nationalist. All I want is a government (north or south of the border, or preferably both) who have OUR interests at heart, have OUR freedom of choice at heart and have the intellect to make SENSIBLE BALANCED decisions based upon logic rather than the lunatic rantings of every loud-mouthed extremist pressure group that comes along. Above all, I want a government that treats us like adults rather than little kids who need to be protected from themselves.

I mean... What IS the point of this ban? There are nowhere near enough sporrans made in the world to put the seal population in any danger whatsoever. The morons got their way in Britain (though notably not in many other European countries or Russia) regarding the wearing of fur. Why do our politicians feel the need to pander to their idiotic desires yet again?

Like I say, they need to meet the Gene Genie. Perhaps then, they will change their tune and see sense.
100

,

06/05/2009 11:57:45
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101

sam the god,

06/05/2009 12:00:55
at last a market for all the rabbit skins that will pay for the ammo
102

Lederblix,

06/05/2009 12:01:46
Too much muddled thinking. Clubbing seals to death should be banned. Culling them humanely should be permitted where agreed to be necessary by the government concerned. But for what it's worth, my sporran is leather and I think it's a lot less poncy than sealskin.
103

Hilary,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 12:02:03
If you all bothered to look on the European Parliament site, you would see that in terms of the legislation passed:

2 SNP MEPs voted in favour
2 Labour MEPs voted in favour
1 Lib Dem voted in favour
1 Con MEP voted in favour

but 1 Con MEP voted against.

There's your democratic voice, whether you like the reality or not.
104

Aber-Scot,

Out Clubbing: 06/05/2009 12:05:44
With all that is going on in the world at the moment, this "distraction" is the best we can comment on. We really are doomed.
105

Davy,

06/05/2009 12:07:44
If we ban the kilt then we have no need for the sporran. Highland dress, guys should not be wearing dresses.
106

David55,

Kirkcaldy 06/05/2009 12:18:48
#3 - That's a great idea. I quite fancy the idea of being Canadian.
107

Serbo,

younggiftedandblack 06/05/2009 12:24:30
The ritual slaughter of animals is a pillar of the islamic religion,doubt anything will be done about it
though.
108

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 12:26:02
#104

I'm with you on that one Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head. What can we do?

109

Tartan Viking,

06/05/2009 12:28:35
Are the wee leather shorts used by Morris dancers next on the hit list?
110

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 06/05/2009 12:34:09
"Traditional"??

Surely the sporran in its current form only made an appearance with the introduction of the fèileadh beag? And only became a must-have accessory with the Victorianisation of "Highland Dress"? I'm pretty certain the use of sealskin is also a hangover from Victorian times.

The original sporran was mainly for carrying foodstuffs - such as oats. It could be made of anything and just hung on a shoulder or neck strap.


#110
Don't be silly Davy. We can't have them walking around b@llock naked!

111

Davy,

06/05/2009 12:43:18
Jacqueline Hyde

Good point maybe some blue paint and no sporran.
112

nabodican,

Rural Scotland 06/05/2009 12:45:52
I would suggest our sporran makers simply ignore the ban. After all, who is going to enforce it?
I can't see the police wasting their time with this stupidity.
113

me150,

06/05/2009 12:50:04
This law is hardly likely to have any impact on the supply of sporrans. They acn be made from may other materials and a ban on seal skin is only fair.
114

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 12:53:58
#115 The original sporran was mainly for carrying foodstuffs - such as oats. It could be made of anything and just hung on a shoulder or neck strap.

All the supermarkets have lovely bags for carrying foodstuff. Tesco have a nice range of Cath Kidston bags. Lovely! they are covered in little rosebuds & they come with Cath Kidston boxer shorts to match. 100% Cotton, that should be OK. Good quality Highland Dress is very sexy! The £9.99 kilts are fine with a twinset and pearls but don't look so hot on the boys.

#110 Davy: You can't ban dresses for men, that would definitely not be PC.
115

me150,

06/05/2009 13:01:17
It should be noted that the sporran is only one of many by-products of seals and it is ALL of these by-products that are banned.
116

westview,

here and now 06/05/2009 13:01:39
When they have finnished having a laugh at our traditional ways can some one please invent a pen or pencil replacement for our stocking knife? The pen is mightier than the sword etc. , but it would be handy to be able to just whip out a writing impliment from our socks at the airport ,when we have to fill in our identity check paper work ,claim forms etc. So come on all you inventors ,design a sock pen . There is a market for them! Better than unusable Trident anyway!.
117

,

06/05/2009 13:12:40
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118

Nice 1 Simmy,

06/05/2009 13:15:24
Margart Thatcher wouldn't bow to the Euro-numpties. Mags would save the sporran. Bring back Mags.
119

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 13:23:54
#122:Meths is back: Hogmanay next, want to bet? Chocolate is also in the running. Auld Lang Syne might even get the chop.
#121 Westview:
I designed one the 'Sgian Dubhball' it even included a 'spell check' but it was banned. Too many dodgy words included in the spell check dictionary they said.
120

Hope for Scotland,

Coaltown of Wemyss 06/05/2009 13:25:17
How can so many of you be so thick not to see the difference between:

A. It's okay to cull seals and do it however you like, no matter how barbaric

and

B. It's okay to cull seals but not in such a barbaric fashion

Surely as a society we've moved on far enough to accept that beating an animal to death with a club isn't humane.

That's not 'green' or 'tree hugging' - just simple, humane commone sense.

And the seal skin sporran is NOT tradition. A bit of research, please!
121

me150,

06/05/2009 13:26:41
How about a Euro wide Susan Boyle ban?

That would make it worth while having the EU
122

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/05/2009 13:29:45
Presumably if ''they'' stop killing seals cruelly then their by-products can be marketed again. Which may, one assumes, encourage those people who take to do with seal populations to be a bit more humane.

Seems fair to me.
123

Florence,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 14:01:58
Good decision. No need for sealskin sporrans. Leather is more than adequate and most right minded people have forsaken the seal skins. And, I'm not at all sure that seal skin sporrans are "traditional".
124

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 14:07:33
#125 How can so many of you be so thick not to see the difference between:
A. It's okay to cull seals and do it however you like, no matter how barbaric
and
B. It's okay to cull seals but not in such a barbaric fashion
Hope for Scotland steady on with the insults, calling people thick is not nice!
Ok One method might seem slightly more acceptable and make you feel better but the bottom line is killing is killing. They end up dead!
I understand a belief that states the killing of ANY living creature be it a human being even if he is your enemy and you are at war with his country or the spider that crawls up the plughole in your bath. I also understand certain religions oppose the slaughter of certain animals but I fail to understand why the seal should be single out for preferential treatment by our politicians when lots of other animals are killed.
Banning inhumane killing might make a little more sense than clubbing the trade of seal products to death!
I’m proposing we get this forum back on track and we start making jokes about the topic.
125

Hilary,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 14:10:21
Moira - you are quite right. Let's seal the deal and knock this whole thing on the head....
126

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/05/2009 14:10:58
129 They may end up dead dear, but not always straight away. That's kind of the point. I don't think anyone here is saying that seals shouldn't be culled if necessary. But they should be culled humanely. That's all.
127

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 06/05/2009 14:14:30
First point, the fur used on sporrans is from adult seals. One hide probably provides enough skin for a dozen or more sporrans.
Not the fur from the white coats that the Euros are wound up over.
Second point, so what.
Tell the Euros to pound sand. Keep manufacturing sporrans. Then what?
Is Gordon Brown going to step in and shut down the sporran industry? Give it your best shot saggy face.
The fact of the matter is, there are far too many seals out on the ice flows. Cod stocks are threatened and they require all the help they can get. There needs to be an annual cull.
The few hundred seal skins used to dress up sporrans has nothing to do with this issue. It's time for the Westminster Labour clowns to stand up for Scotland. Because you can bet your sporran that Alex Salmond will.
128

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 14:23:10
129 They may end up dead dear

Dead dear! That's a new one on me. I've heard of Dead Ducks but never dead dear!

Talking of deer how could anyone kill Bambi humanely or otherwise?

#130 That's the way to go! Laughter is the best medicine!
129

,

06/05/2009 14:37:13
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130

sheri,

usa 06/05/2009 14:47:16
maybe they should outlaw wool. those poor little sheep have to freeze after getting their wool shaved off while being held down. and don't forget how they kill chicken and other animals so we can put food on the table. maybe everyone should go vegetarian and naked???
131

Digby Scallop,

North America 06/05/2009 14:49:33
Before they started clubbing seals to death in Canada, what did the Scots use to make their "traditional" sporrans? Clubbed Scottish seals? My ancestors were trouser-wearing Scots so I don't know.
132

Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim,

Richmond 06/05/2009 15:01:11
I'm amazed at the amount of disinformation that passes for fact in this forum. Sporrans were part of the Highland dress since long before Culloden and functioned as a handy purse for carrying oatmeal, a coin or two and gunpowder, not to mention a protective barrier for the naughty parts. I realize that most of the more ludicrous claims are posted from the safety of Edinburgh, but is it really possible for so many to be so completely uninformed about Scottish matters furth of the Forth. The Adventures of Oor Wullie is NOT a primer for Scottish culture, but it hardly matters as many of the posters here seem to draw on their own vivid imaginations when making claims that have caused me more than once to splutter my morning coffee all over my computer screen.
133

awantapassport,

sunnysoothcoast 06/05/2009 15:19:04
#137 Mìcheal a Eilean Rùim... No doubt that early Highlanders would have had some form of sporran, as was common all over Europe with the belt bag. More than likely made from some form of leather with the more affluent having adornments.

The headline 'European law spells end for traditional Scottish sporran' seems to me sensationalist. This EU ruling will not end the traditional sporran industry. I tend to agree with some of the posters above that using seal fur was a fairly recent fashion in Highland dress history.

I have my Grandfathers sporran, made from the white fur of baby seals. It is very beautiful but would look far better on a live baby seal.
134

himthatknows,

Woodstock 06/05/2009 15:32:20
Well fifi.... since we will evidently not be welcome in your country I wonder should I cancel my family's trip this summer...

Save the seals kill the visitors eh?
135

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/05/2009 15:39:10
#137 Do you agree that such sporrans were most commonly carried by a strap over the shoulder, and were made of leather or other animal hide?

The relationship between todays "highlandwear" fancy dress and the genuine traditional clothing of the highland scot is very distant.
136

Bondbabe,

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA 06/05/2009 16:14:51
Ah, I feel so sorry for the sporran industry going down the tubes without their traditional seal skins! As I'm sitting here with 3 students from Edinburgh University, we're really going mad and silly with pity for this uncouth tradition. Jesus, hasn't this bloody industry had enough seals killed for their traditional trinket? If you want to worry about extinction, just sit tight a bit longer and watch as all go under the way we're killing everything off! Seals are not responsible for declining fish stocks - overfishing is! Trawlers now bring in more fish in 1 day as at one time in a year. When are you people going to smarten up?
137

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 06/05/2009 16:22:42
To deal with the topic of the story first .... so what? As has been said many times on this thread, seal skin is not necessary when making a kilt. Whether they ban it or not is of little interest to me. This smacks of the traditional anti-EU story that brings the Col. Blimps out in their droves but is ultimately of no import beyond their bulbous red noses :)

What is of more interest is the way many Unionists have used this thread to disparage, Scotland, it's traditions and it's Government. This thread did not need to be politicised but they could not resist the opportunity to exhibit their loathing of the country they live in and the cringe they feel whenever they are confronted by anything intrinsically Scottish. There is nothing quite so sad and pathetic as some-one who despises what they are while adopting the mannerisms and prejudices of those they consider their country's betters. That's Unionism for you :)
138

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 16:34:28
himthatknows,
Woodstock 06/05/2009 15:32:20

Well fifi.... since we will evidently not be welcome in your country I wonder should I cancel my family's trip this summer...

Save the seals kill the visitors eh?

OMG! What this all about. Are the tourists being banned now?

'Ceud Mille Failte' himthatknows I hope you and your family enjoy your trip to Scotland. Don't delay your trip as times are changing rapidly.
We're very friendly when you meet us face to face. We get a bit carried away on these faceless forums.
Big Hug for all visitors to Scotland. Please don't shop in the Tartan Tat Shops that have all their merchandise on the pavement and blast out cr*p music all day. They are very annoying and unsightly.
139

Geomac 1,

Scotland 06/05/2009 16:37:40
Yet another ban by our tribunes at Hollywood - can't be much left for them to ban. Does that mean that they can packs their bags and go?
Yet another major contribution to our economy!!!
140

Duncan in Edinburgh,

06/05/2009 16:43:44
#142 "This thread did not need to be politicised" says the person who goes on to attack "Unionists" for "loathing" Scotland.

Bravo, my friend - the living embodiment of hypocrisy.
141

Gdgy,

dndy 06/05/2009 16:48:41
#142
What a pile of polony you are spouting!

Tartan and sporrans are as Scottish as the royal family...disparaging tartan does not mean disparaging Scotland unless you have a rather strange mindset.
But this is the rot that passes for thought amongst the SNPites...
142

Tris,

06/05/2009 16:50:37
What an important story to have as your front page lead.

This will surely affect every single hard working Scottish family, for whom the world will never be the same again.

Oh woe is us.

143

WL,

Livingston 06/05/2009 16:59:57
I have no problem in the EU trying to ban cruel slaughter of seals in the EU; this is probably illegal already. But this has nothing to do with sealskin sporrans.
It is like banning cars because cars kill people.
144

MoiraMac,

06/05/2009 17:01:27
himthatknows: I've just noticed that your post was censored so I'll perhaps have to rethink what I said. Fifi is extremely funny so since I cant read your post I will have to take her side. Go Fifi!

It looks as if this thread is being hijacked by the SNP/Unionists. The Rufus character could be here soon.
Bondbabe,
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA 06/05/2009 16:14:51
You are so lucky to have 3 students from Edinburgh University there with you. I'm not quite sure why I suppose they are probably very nice people are they wearing their kilts? Are they allowed to post anything on this thread?
When you say
'you people' who do you mean? I think I might find being called 'you people' worse than being called 'dear' or even 'thick'

Goodbye all I'm not hanging about for the SNP v Unionists debate. It's too boring!
145

retiredsco,

Poughkeepsie 06/05/2009 17:12:32
I agree with those who say "forget EU" too many busybodies with too much time on their hands.
Keep the tradition alive!
146

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06/05/2009 17:13:58
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147

retiredsco,

Poughkeepsie 06/05/2009 17:15:26
I agree with those who say " forget the EU" too many busybodies with too much time on their hands.
148

,

06/05/2009 17:16:31
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149

Fifi la Bonbon,

06/05/2009 17:20:46
#139 - you're welcome to visit, but you'll need to remember where you are and behave yourselves.

That means no complaining, no talking loudly, no dressing like tourists, no complaining (really important), no saying "well back in (insert name of your desolate lizard-ridden desert township or mosquito infested prairie hamlet as appropriate) we dont't do things this way we do them that way", no asking locals if they are descended from your great great grandfather Archie who sailed on the Metagama, and no complaining.

Thank you for your attention.
150

Dougie Welsh,

Halifax 06/05/2009 17:27:31
I've worn t' kilt, man and boy, ower 50 year, and only ever had ONE sealskin sporran. I've two rabbit yins for formal wear, an three black "coo-hide" yins an' a broon yin for day wear. This EU playactin' will no affect me because I willnae let it!

When are ye all gointa WAKE UP? Labour AND the Conservatives have sold US doon the river an' across the Forth for a hundred years, and we LET them do it! Alex may not be the best man for the job, but he's the best one in ANY of thae Parliaments TODAY.

Stand up and be counted. My family is tired of crossing the Channel to save Europe's collective fat a***s and getting a boot in the face for thanks. Scr** them, and join Canada!
151

Phillip,

06/05/2009 17:30:42
Well, if the Animal Rights nutters don't want us to use seal pelts for sporrans, how about some of them volunteer to take the seals' place. Mind you, each activits won't provide as much leather as a seal, but since I would be willing to bet that the female activists are just as hairy as those seals were and probably just as smelly too.
152

Keep Scotland Green,

Doune 06/05/2009 17:45:43
I for one do not believe that Scottish heritage is compatible with clubbing seals to death. We used to do a lot of things in the "olden days" that we would never do now. Societies evolve and I am delighted to see that our evolution is making us more compassionate. Wear your kilts and your sporrans with pride - the fact it has not resulted from a clubbed seal skin should make you even more proud to be Scottish.
153

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 06/05/2009 18:14:56
154 Fifi la Bonbon,

What a sad, benighted and depressing view you expound of my country and our of people.

Thankfully, you and those of your ilk are in the process of being chased, never to regain the levers of power over our communities ever again.

You people were temporarily loaned some element of sovereignty over our population, we are now reclaiming it as you have failed us.

Fold your tents neatly and take with them away along your butcher’s aprons.

Goodbye!
154

Geomac 1,

Scotland 06/05/2009 18:56:46
Let's have a loud and communal RASPBERRY to #158 wee bully alba. He must be either a current Hollywood politician or and aspiring one????
155

Shuggie,

Canada 06/05/2009 19:02:28
Newfoundlanders have made a living from this hunt for many generations; which does not, as has been remarked, make it acceptable.
However, were I to be reincarnated as a "lower animal" I would sooner take my chance as a seal on a floe in the Labrador than as a stirk in a feedlot.
156

Russell M,

Stirling 06/05/2009 19:05:12
Actually, #108 Hilary from Edinburgh, the EU has done a lot for the Highlands and Islands as a place. Roads, facilities, a real tourist destination. As for a minority people yearning to be the masters of their own lives and lands again? Not a chance. It's called balkinization and to be avoided at ALL costs. You see there are two ways to approach sovereignty: 1. The European approach from the top where it is pushed down just far enough to satisfy the middle class with the illusion of democracy. 2. From the bottom where each and every individual is created equal and sovereign. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among people, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

I agree this is not a deliberate effort by the EU - of which we are a part, to destroy Scottish culture and neglect Scottish sacrifices in wars past. It's just one more little, reasonable adjustment to be made by a native people to become more European. To give up the old, bad ways and join the modern human race. Except how do you TELL me that what I'm doing and what my ancestors have done for thousands of years is wrong without me taking it just a wee bit personal?

It's messy and slow and may look like it will never happen in time, but if you ask me and share the knowledge and information which you have used to come to your conclusions I might just come to the same result as well. That's what makes respect so difficult. Why agreeing to disagree is so unsatisfying. You are totally omniscient in your conviction that you are doing the right thing. And if I disagree I must be ignorant. And that starts to sound imperialistic again.
157

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 06/05/2009 19:06:54
#145 Duncan in Edinburgh wrote:
"#142 "This thread did not need to be politicised" says the person who goes on to attack "Unionists" for "loathing" Scotland. Bravo, my friend - the living embodiment of hypocrisy."

I think you'll find, Duncan, there is no hint of hypocrisy in my post. I stated the thread did not have to be politicised .... but was from post#1 by Unionists who just could not help themselves. I merely responded within an already politicised thread. I think you should probably look up the meaning of words before you use them.

Same thing goes for "Gdgy,dndy" at #146. I think the word you were probably grasping for was "baloney" rather than the puzzling "polony".

Leaving that aside, you are predictably wrong. "Tartan and sporrans" ARE very Scottish. Simply because they are marketed as such and the world associates them with us .... and only us. I can only assume that the Unionists on this thread who have derided it do so because they are embarrassed by it. It sets Scotland apart from the rest of the UK and the World when they desperately want Scotland to disappear into some bland, homogenous British/English mass culture. It is the only reason I can think of to explain why they reflexly attack anything associated with Scottishness, while embracing every anti-Scottish prejudice fostered by those who know no better. It's sad, it's pathetic, it's Unionism.
158

Media at One,

06/05/2009 19:16:29
The sporran is not something that all Scots can relate to. The Burkha is more in tune with modern Scotland than the Sporran, the Mosque and the veil are also part and parcel of the new Scotland..Shame to see the sporran go but there are new things now.
159

Media at One,

06/05/2009 19:19:55
Bungo Pony
You can think what you like, but unionism made Scotland the great nation it is today!
160

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 06/05/2009 19:22:25
Nonsense # 164 "Media at One". The burkha and the veil are moslem and global, not intrinsically Scottish. The sporran is going nowhere, however much you might like it to. It is only the tiny number made from seal skin that will be no more. I have one and it is not made from seals.
161

Friar Tuck,

06/05/2009 19:26:25
Maybe the sporran makers could make a deal with Chinese restaurants - they could give them the pelts of all the cats they use!
162

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 06/05/2009 19:27:29
#165 Media at One wrote:
"Bungo Pony
You can think what you like, but unionism made Scotland the great nation it is today!"
--

We agree. I believe it is down to the Union that Scotland's economy historically lags behind that of every other W. European country (including the UK), suffers from levels of poverty that dwarf those of our small W. European neighbours and is the only country in Europe to have seen it's population shrink (rather than grow at the European average of 25%) since WW2. None of which argue for a "Union Dividend" I think you'll agree.
163

Scottish Canadian,

Ottawa canada 06/05/2009 20:17:28
Please don't forget your Scottish history. You sent thousands of fellow Scots to my great country from your great country after your Enlightenment. We all have the Scottish business acumen from our ancestors. And we all have sporrans made from sealskin.
I think you'll find an enterprising scottish-canadian selling sporrans once the European ban comes into effect.
Watch this space!!!
164

Charley,

Oban 06/05/2009 20:26:20
168 - I think we lag behind because as a nation we are fundamentally lazy, blame all but ourselves and have no motivation, oh and all the good ones leave because of this (my 3 kids for example). Thank you Scotland...you are the weakest link.
165

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/05/2009 20:32:46
169 There is no threat to Scottish culture here. This is a ban on the use of sealskin which is used in the manufacture of multitudinous articles of every description across the EU. Sporrans are made of leather or fur, or a combination of both. They do not have to be made of sealskin, the formal ''Highland dress'' that people think of as traditionally Scottish was an invention of the Victorians.

166

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/05/2009 20:34:15
170 You should see your GP. There are cures for low self-esteem and depression, but you must seek help to find them.
167

Rami,

Derry NH 06/05/2009 20:34:41
The only time we wear our Sporrans is at our
Scottish High Land Games, which are held once a year
up-state........Why not make them out of vinyl or
cowhide????????
168

Alba Abú,

06/05/2009 20:52:45
"The sporran" Is that the level of our self confidence?
I would have thought that being independent like some other small European countries would be a better measure of our culture.However it looks as though Scots in general are not ready for that and prefer to hang on to mother England's apron strings.
Sad,isnt it?
169

luro,

glasgow 06/05/2009 21:12:45
Baby seals are being skinned alive and their flesh left to rot so that their skins may be used to decorate a kilt.

I encouraged my European representatives to ban the import of seal products and I thank God they did.

This has nothing to do with Scottishness. It has everything to do with stopping cruelty.
170

Mèths,

06/05/2009 21:14:10
170

Are you for real?
171

hoblar,

06/05/2009 22:06:25
hardy har har.

leather could be used to replace seal skin.

For the numpty who reckoned that the Scottish Government couldn't do anything because they didn't save, er, HBoS and RSB.....if Scotland owned those banks during the alleged 'boom times' when they were worth hundreds of £millions, all controlled and regulated in Scotland by a Scottish Government; you'd have a point.

Instead you are jim murphy from the anti Scottish Office, except you're forced to troll on a political commentary section of an online newspaper, and let's face it, that makes you a load of old rubbish.
172

hoblar,

06/05/2009 22:09:37
Oh aye, Mebungo:

the troll you are responding to is so obviously a wee right wing type that frequently nonces around this site, it is difficult to believe that somebody as astute as you would respond.
173

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/05/2009 22:14:28
170 what's keepin ye here, dude ?
174

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/05/2009 22:16:23
"artificial sporrans a threat to Scottish heritage" !!!

Jesus H Christ ! ye couldnae make it up !!
175

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/05/2009 22:18:09
165 - irony isnae dead !
176

,

06/05/2009 23:16:59
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177

Robert Burns,

Ocean Beach (San Diego), California 06/05/2009 23:29:48
Seal skin in an red herring. Many sporrans are made from other animals, perhaps all of the dress sporrans. I want mine made from an al qaeda.
178

,

06/05/2009 23:30:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
179

Me Bungo Pony,

Dundee 06/05/2009 23:38:26
#178 hoblar, good to see you still fighting on the side of the angels :)

We disagree on who and what we should respond to, which is fine, but I do pick and choose my targets. I respond to those whose arguments allow me to get my points across and, hopefully, refute any specious reasoning thay have used. I ignore those whose posts ridicule themselves .... which is the majority of the Unionist contribution, in my opinion :)

Keep up the good fight :)
180

Ewan Randall,

07/05/2009 00:00:33
As Scots used to class themselves very much as European is it not more likely that William Wallace would have voted for any party which wasn't UKIP?
181

Sask Resident,

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada 07/05/2009 00:05:23
My, my, lots of miss-information in the article and blog postings. Nothing is better for the wet cold than a pair of seal skin boots, and, if tanned, last for a long time. Many ladies in Iqaluit, Nunavut wear seal skin coats on their nights out. Too bad the EU is run by old movie and music stars who have everything done for them. So they think seal pups are cute, but so are baby rats, maybe the elites should try to save them as well. What about saving baby badgers?

BTW, I have never seen a still-alive seal skinned, although I have seen live pythons skinned in the streets of Hong Kong and live monkey (and screaming) monkey have the tops of their head cut off in Laos. Aren't turkeys still stuck and feathers pulled off while alive?

The facts are, this ban on seal skins is simply a trade barrier to use in negotiations and to keep the colonies like Greenland and Canada in their place. EU imperialism is alive and kicking.
182

Sask Resident,

07/05/2009 00:16:24
luro, glasgow #175 As Lenin said, if you lie often enough, people will believe it.

Many Newfoundlanders and most Inuit eat the seals (flipper pie!) they but can't eat all those during the spring cull. But the left orders become fish food, just like the left overs from orcas. Do you have any idea where you food comes from, how it gets there and the cruelty involved along the way.

Killing is, of course, cruel. Life in the sea is also cruel. Is it less cruel to drive a bolt into a pig or a long nail or bullet into a seal's head? If you want to see something cruel, watch a seal trying to get away from an orca with have its body gone or a polar bear playing with a seal on the ice. You need to get in touch with reality.
183

Fitba Krazy,

07/05/2009 00:31:33
165: "Bungo Pony
You can think what you like, but unionism made Scotland the great nation it is today!"

Aye, very good. That's why no Scottish team has won the European Cup since 1967 I suppose?

If only we had ALL the oil money to spend on players, eh?
184

Tired of Hypocrites,

Mount Forest 07/05/2009 02:12:00
Clubbing seals. Hum..... How many wee furry creatures get squashed by automobiles daily? How many pretty birds get slaughtered in wind farms? The French force feed geese to make "Fois Gras." They take a funnel and force grain down the goose`s throat so the bird becomes exceedingly fat, making the liver tender. Are Cows, pigs horses, goats killed with a hydraulic steel punch to the forehead less cruel then a hakapik to the skull? The point is that if the EU or society in general decides to ban seal products on the basis of "inhumanity" then it must, for the sake of consistency, also ban the products of slaughterhouses. Otherwise they are guilty of a gross double standard, which violates their trade obligations under various treaties and agreements signed with Canada.
185

Tired of Hypocrites,

Mount Forest 07/05/2009 02:19:16
I think I've solved the dilemma. Run the seals over with cars and trucks, chop them up with wind blades, stuff them with grain until they burst, slam a hydraulic steel spike into their wee brains, stab them with big long swords like in bull fighting. If we Canadians kill them this way, is it OK?
186

Concerned Canadian,

11/05/2009 19:22:31
Sadly, all this will achieve is to remove markets from the equation. It will mean that fishermen like me and the rest my family will kill seals under a federal cull program that is unfettered by the restraints of market price fluctuations or political pressure to ban seal products. What will this mean? When at sea we will simply kill seals indiscriminately to keep their numbers down. Even with the 300 000 per year that we've taken the population has risen from 1.5 million animals 25 years ago to 6 million animals today. I regret that nothing of the animal will be used but if we cannot sell them, we will simply dump them. That is simply the way the cull program will work. We will not let the population grow unchecked simply because we can't sell the pelts. In fact, I would be surprised if this did not result in greater numbers of seals being killed. Right now we are limited by how may seals our small boats can carry. If we don't have to carry them ashore to market we will simply kill them at our leisure and them leave them where they lie. It sounds harsh, I'll grant you that, but until you've lived where I have lived and witnessed what I have witnessed you will never know the impact these animals have on the local evironment. Sorry to disappoint but if we don't have to worry about currying international favour in order to sell seal products then we have nothing to lose by killing more of them to protect the species we can sell. Funny isn't it?
187

TREV,

Olsztyn, Poland 11/05/2009 22:08:18
I suspect this whole thing is a plan by the sporran makers to get people to run out and pay the extortionate prices for the seal-skin sporrans. Doubtless cowhide will soon be the 'traditional material' soon and they'll be charging the earth for them too.
188

Wee Willy Winky,

Winnipeg 17/05/2009 21:52:58
Where's Sir Paul McCartney? I thought he might have posted a comment by now!

 

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