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Saturday, 21st November 2009

Double standards row as Cameron says 'yes' to Welsh referendum – but 'no' to Scots one

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Published Date: 07 November 2009
DAVID Cameron has been accused of "double standards" after he agreed he would allow a referendum that could lead to more powers for the Welsh Assembly.
The Conservative leader yesterday said he would not block a vote on the Welsh constitution if it was demanded by the Cardiff Assembly.

But his words have sparked a political row in Scotland because of the Tories' opposition to a referendum on Scot
tish independence.

SNP Western Isles MSP Alasdair Allan said: "I would like to say I am shocked at the Tories' consistent refusal to allow the people of Scotland a say on their future, but they have never cared for Scotland and most likely never will – voters know this and have shown that at the ballot box.

"This is indeed encouraging for the people of Wales. I only wish that the Tories would show the same trust and respect to Scotland.

"The Tories say they want constitutional change by giving the Scots Parliament more powers. However, there can be no other way to make the desired change than putting trust in the people and allowing them a voice."

On a visit to north Wales, Mr Cameron said he believed that reviving the economy was the most important thing to be done in Wales.

But he added that he would not stand in the way of a referendum.

Mr Cameron said: "I believe the priorities in Wales are getting jobs, are getting the economy moving, are dealing with the deficit.

"But I know people do want an answer to the question: What if the Welsh Assembly voted to have a wider referendum on more law-making powers of the assembly?

"Would a Conservative government, if one is elected, allow that to go ahead? And I can tell you the answer to that question is yes, we would. We wouldn't stand in the way of that request."

Mr Cameron added: "My own view is, let's roll up our sleeves and deal with the real priorities – jobs, investment, getting the economy going – that is what I think people in Wales care about most of all."

The Tories have also been keen on a referendum on Europe.

This week Mr Cameron confirmed that he would not hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty now that it had been ratified.

In the past, when asked about Scotland's position within the United Kingdom, Mr Cameron has said he would "never do anything" to put at risk the Union, a phrase that has been interpreted as a sign that he opposed holding a referendum on independence.

In common with Labour, the Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament have said they will not support an independence referendum at Holyrood.

With the Liberal Democrats recently saying that they would not support an independence poll this parliament, the chances of the SNP pushing its forthcoming Referendum Bill through parliament next year are extremely remote.

A Conservative spokesman said if the Scottish Parliament did support a referendum, it would not be obstructed by a Westminster government led by Mr Cameron.

"There is no inconsistency. The party has made it clear that if there is a majority for a referendum in the Scottish Parliament, then David Cameron would not stand in the way of it," the spokesman said.

"That is totally consistent. However, the simple fact of the matter is that there is no majority for a referendum in the Scottish Parliament."






Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 November 2009 12:06 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Conservative Party
 
1

Brianwci,

07/11/2009 00:08:20
Clearly the Brit Nats aren't as concerned with the Welsh as they are with the Scots.

But major black marks for their double standards.
2

livilion,

livingston 07/11/2009 00:24:55
If enough vote for the SNP at the general election, with its first past the post system, then there will be no need for a referendum.

Anyway, with the fortunes of the unionist parties as they are up here, the next Holyrood election should make things very interesting, supposing unionism is still relevant by then.
3

WeeGirlie,

07/11/2009 00:25:57
Don't trust the Tories.
4

WeeGirlie,

07/11/2009 00:27:37
-2

Agree.

More votes for the SNP next summer is the one TRUE way of settling this issue once and for all.

Then there canbe no argument about their mandate, and removes the need and costs for
a referendum.
5

awantapassport,

sunnysoothcoast 07/11/2009 00:39:36
Let's be honest, double standards will be rife with Cameron and the Tories in power. How many MPs do they predict for Scotland?

I, thankfully, live in an area of England where they are less likely to win. I am not daft enough to think it will affect the outcome.

Awright WeeMan?
6

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 00:54:22
Using some very famous words; Bring it on Cameron!
Vote SNP and rid ourselves of this odious, corrupt leaching union.
7

awantapassport,

sunnysoothcoast 07/11/2009 00:59:02
Perhaps Mark a better way to phrase it for UK consumption would be 'Vote SNP and stop the drain on England's economy'?

Unfortunately England, unlike Scotland, has no openly nationalist parties that don't advocate racism in one form or another!
8

Mc Max ,

07/11/2009 01:08:07
Unfortunately England??
So so sad.
9

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 01:12:04
7 Yes they do, they're called the Conservatives, then there's the UKIP(ask a member if he knows where Scotland is) and lastly the wonderful BNP.. all with a huge majority of English supporters.

And well done to the Hootsman for covering this, just shows that even they can't stand the Tories.
10

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 01:15:02
Now that I think about it, this is gonna leave the unionist and mainly Labour supporters in a bit of a quandary, how are they going to criticize this one without sounding like a Tory?
Looking forward to this!
11

MacFloyd,

Union Kon 07/11/2009 01:15:15

Wales doesn't have a massive oil resource, so your next leader, The Toff, can let them vote as they will on a tweak to the London made rules.

What the SNP propose is different, and with Westminster counting on future North Sea billions (not to mention the fruits of new oil exploration off the West coast) to pay off the cost of their imperial pretences, no way can the London parties allow Scotland to even consider the question of nationhood.

Easier for Brown the clown to come North and tell Springburn that Europe's oil capital not having the money to build GARL - or finish motorway projects started in the sixties - is due to nationalists that have held limited power for barely two years.
12

Fitba Krazy,

07/11/2009 01:20:32
Labour and Tory politicians will tell us any old garbage to get into power and once they do then they go back on most of what they said.

They just can't help doing it.

I nearly said they just can't help themselves which of course, in the wider context, is exactly what they do.

How long must we put up with this craven idiocy from both the unionist politicians and the clowns that vote for them?

13

Eduardinho,

07/11/2009 01:20:53
Lets make sure we return as many SNP MP's to Westminster, next May 6th Generla Election
and watch Cameron squirm as he will not be able to ignore a large block of SNP MP's
Which is why its important that all the Scottish Labour MP's are replaced. If we return a Labour MP, all they will do is NOTHING!
14

GH1,

Voting SNP in Glasgow in North East 07/11/2009 01:24:45

#7 Unfortunately England, unlike Scotland, has no openly nationalist parties that don't advocate racism in one form or another!


I'm sorry, but I'm struggling to understand what you're actually saying here. Are you suggesting there are no racists in England? And which party or parties are you saying are racist in Scotland?
15

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 01:30:49
Not sure how the constitution works on this, anyone know? I'm assuming if we had a majority of SNP MPs in Scotland, Westminster wouldn't have much choice, referendum or not. But what's the legal stance? Would we have to appeal to the United Nations if they refused? Can you imagine the tension if they did?
What is becoming increasingly apparent is a vote for Labour truly is a wasted vote.
We live in interesting times!
16

Fitba Krazy,

07/11/2009 01:32:20
14, GH1,

What he is meaning, from what I can gather, is the nationalist parties in Scotland are NOT racist but the English ones are.
17

GH1,

Voting SNP in Glasgow North East 07/11/2009 01:38:12
#16 Fitba Krazy

Thanks, mate. It must be the time of the morning. I'm off to bed.

Regards #7
18

Eduardinho,

07/11/2009 01:38:54
#15 mark mccann
If the SNP pulled it off, it would be very difficult to ignore. Especially with TV cameras inside Westminster. seeing a large group that could even be bigger than the Libdems!
The unionists always state that the best referendum is the General election and they always state that Scotland doesnt return many SNP MP's. Well it should be interesting to see what they say if Scotland did return 20-25 SNP MP's
If there is a clear enough mandate and a doubling of MP's would be a clear enough one, then if Westminster continued to block requests for a referendum, then Scotland would have a legitimate right to appeal to the UN
19

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 01:38:58
14 I Think he was referring to the perception of English Nationalism being allied to the BNP, you can't fly the St Georges flag down there without being branded a racist, which is a great shame as I always say to my English friends, as they have a lot to be proud of in their reasonably tolerant society.

If the English were more proud of the achievement of the least racist, European country and all the other good points of their nation, they wouldn't have this terrible lack of identity and confidence that is so evident north of the border.
20

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 01:43:45
18 One point, Westminster could never block a referendum, that power lies in Holyrood, unfortunately all they can do is ask for permission to negotiate with Westminster for independence. It would be then that the Tory government would have the ability to refuse. That's why I'm asking about the legality of it all.
21

MacFloyd,

Union Kon 07/11/2009 01:45:05
Mark, we'd live in interesting times if Scotland's balls had dropped, but there are interests outside of Scotland that will do what they can to stop that happening.

Watch in amazement as voters in one of the poorest areas of Western Europe votes to reject a party advocating their country having control over her considerable (and considerably underplayed) resources for a party that's had 74 years of control.
22

Fitba Krazy,

07/11/2009 01:51:17
19, Mark, McCann,

It is the use, or should I say misuse of the tag 'British' that causes much confusion, perhaps intentionally in some instances.

British is English + Welsh, technically speaking and does NOT include Scotland despite the BNP's use of the union flag.

Scotland is in Great Britain which is the tag that was invented yo include Scotland.

There is nothing wrong with the St Georges flag being flown in England or anywhere to represent England and there is nothing racist about it.

Likewise the Saltire being flown in Scotland.

However the English flag with a union flag in the corner being flown to represent the Great British Navy including the Scottish element is contentious.
23

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 01:51:32
21 You could have said the same thing about the last byelection in Glasgow. I agree that there's a lot of people who don't want us to leave the union, hence the lies about our oil but we still live in a democracy, if we keep shouting the truth above the lies the media keep spreading, then eventually the populace will listen and vote SNP. Believe MacFloyd, believe!!!
24

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 01:58:18
22 British refers to the inhabitants of the British Isles, they include the Kingdoms of England and Scotland AND Ireland although you won't hear them say it! Wales was annexed and ceased to be a country under Edward Longshanks. Politically, we are in the United Kingdom. When we become independent we will still be British, just like the Danish, Swedish, Norwegians and the Finns are Scandinavian.. It is a little confusing though I agree, especially when England and Britain are considered the same thing to uneducated outsiders.
25

Barney Thomson,

Reading 07/11/2009 02:01:22
#19 Mark

"you can't fly the St Georges flag down there without being branded a racist"

Sorry, that's just not true. Towards the end of April, many non-racist, cosmopolitan areas down here will be proudly showing the flag of St George to celebrate their national day. I enjoy seeing this as it defies those small minded racists who have been trying to monopolise the flag for their own despicable purposes.

If only my fellow Scots were able to celebrate their own national day without opposition from similar small minded people.
26

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 02:03:10
Also, in places where there are large ethnic populations in England flying the St Georges Cross has been considered an incitement to racial hatred. A sure sign that the English flag has been demonised by the BNP and the poor behaviour of English football fans.
27

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 02:05:08
Barney, there was a well publicised incident where a car in Luton was pulled over and the occupants were told to remove the flag from the parcel shelf or face arrest.
28

Fitba Krazy,

07/11/2009 02:06:13
24, Mark,

Actually Great British refers to the inhabitants of Scotland, England and Wales but NOT Ireland.

Hence the United Kingdom of GREAT Britain AND Northern Ireland. If Northern Ireland was in Great Britain there would be no need to mention them in the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain being the Kingdoms of Scotland , England and Wales.

That's what I mean by the confusion.

The British Isles is a geographical description that in itself is also contentious if you are Irish.

See :- http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britain.htm
29

Barney Thomson,

Reading 07/11/2009 02:11:35
#26 Mark

No. My sensible, moderate and tolerant English friends of all ethnic backgrounds do not believe their use of the St George's flag makes them racist. It's just the flag of their country, mostly seen around April 23 or when English sports teams are playing.

Let's not compare the behaviour of football fans.
30

Barney Thomson,

Reading 07/11/2009 02:15:03
#27 Mark

Don't know about the story but they could not be arrested just for showing a flag which appears in its thousands in pubs in April, surely.
31

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 02:20:54
30 It's crazy I know but it's true, I know one of the occupants of the car! Political correctness gone mad. You are right about St Georges day though, it has been celebrated with more enthusiasm in the last few years and good luck to them. I hope we have the same enthusiasm up here on Nov 30th without the unionists claiming there's something "sinister" about it.
32

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 02:25:29
I digress, back to the main point, does anyone know the constitutional situation regarding a majority of SNP MP's in Scotland?
33

Fitba Krazy,

07/11/2009 02:28:40
31, Mark,

Aye, yer right there about St Andrews day and the pathetic outpourings of the 'unionists'

Why, if they are indeed unionists do they hate the idea of a Scottish identity?

Without Scotland, there would be NO Great Britain, just Britain, and, also the idea of a union is supposedly an equal partnership otherwise there is no union but disunity.

The disunity, inequality and undermining of Scotland is the very reason we want out of it and to achieve Scottish Independence.
34

Fitba Krazy,

07/11/2009 02:37:41
32,Mark.

I thought that if we had more than half the people voting for independence parties then that in itself would be a mandate for legitimate claims for independence, however there are those who would oppose this, that is why a referendum on the singular issue of Scottish independence is preferred to remove any doubt and, of course, that is why the unionist dictators are set against it.
35

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 02:49:53
34 So all we need is a well publicised campaign which will start on St Andrews day, telling Scotland the facts and, if not by the general election, then by the Scottish elections the year after(assuming we have a majority), we will have a referendum, and there's nothing Cameron and his cronies can do about it!
36

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 07/11/2009 04:27:53
This is just the beginning of the Tory aggression to Scotland. They cannot afford to have SCOTLAND leave the union for we are SUBSIDISING england and they will do anything to stop us, however we are GONE LEFT LOST to the pathetic union with england. All we need to do is give a positive return at the english election and we will BE FREE. BRING IT ON cameron.
37

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 07/11/2009 04:33:08
The wording of the act of union is tightly tied together. It was designed due to the fact that westminster knew there would be an outcry by the scottish people, due to the capitulation by a "Parcel of Rogues".
There was an outcry, and from that day to this, there has been deception by westminster to pacify the scottish population. Before Bonnie Prince Charlie there had been a couple of failed attempts by other pretenders, Spain and France had failures with thier fleet delivering troops to scotland. In 1800s there was a peoples uprising calling for scottish independance. It was crushed by British Redcaots. Again in 1900s there was continued calls for Scottish independence. It too was put down By redcoat gunfire.

The major hurdle is the fact that Scotland must negotiate its freedom. That means England want to know what they gain from the seperation. The Home office manderins have already nodded a wink to requiring ownership of great swathes of the North Sea currently in Scottish waters. In 1999 in a "Sinister" move, New Labour negotiated with the fledgling Scottish parliament for the waters from Berick on Tweed to Carnoustie. This then gave the westminster government the rights to gas supplies under the North Sea. To release Scotland from the union I would presume that westminster will be twisting arms to win Oil fields in the North Sea by negotiated settlement.
Scotland would have to give away OIL, to regain her status as an independant country.
The English arguement would ofcourse be, "Why you are such a small country, you dont need all these resources to yourselves".
Do you think they are gonna negotiate for wells that are half used up? Hell no they are gonna negotiate for the atlantic west coast. Still full to the top, so I guess that the Scottish waters around the solway firth are gonna be moved north somewhere, possibly losing scottish waters to above the clyde, thereby circumventing the SNP threat to force the Nuclear subs and WMDs out of Scotland. If Fa
38

Canny Mann,

07/11/2009 04:33:50
If Faslane is no longer in Scottish waters. The SNP and the scottish people would have no say whatsoever about thier outcome or the ability to make Scotland a nuclear free zone.
England will play rough, and make scotland pay dearly for the freedoms we desire.

Vote SNP and give scotland a fighting chance.

Alba gu brath...
39

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 04:47:39
Canny Mann, that's a misnomer. Redcoat bullets in the 1900's? And unless the border is miraculously moved a hundred miles north, your theory on oil rights is a total fantasy. Check the international law. I applaud your support for independence but try and stay in the real world.
40

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 07/11/2009 05:12:49
If Scotland were to lose the western waters to above the clyde, then all of scotlands Major trading ports would be in english hands.
Edinburgh/Leith, Perth, Rosyth and Dundee on the east coast, Glasgow, Gourock and Kilmarnock in the west. Scotland would be in a stranglehold applied by england, surrounded by water yet denied access to the sea. Remember what happened to the darien plans? A blockade by the Royal Navy and if I remember my history correctly in cahoots with the Spanish Navy, denied the Darien ships access to the sea thereby starving thier ability to trade. Bankruptcy, starvation, sickness and death.
If Scotland isnt carefull, it could be walked blindly into a similar predicament, but this time in our own waters.
Scotland needs the sea to trade and the trade to compete and prosper.
England knows this.
Nowhere in scotland above the clyde on the west has suitable seaways to build a modern port, capable of handling the super sized carriers of today. The western Isles has some of the most treacherous waters in the world with wicked currents and unpredictable weather. Scotland would be forced to upgrade Aberdeen on the east coast, which could never compete with Glasgow/Kilmarnock for the atlantic trade to USA, Canada and south America.
Vote SNP, Scotland is worth it.

Alba gu brath.
41

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 07/11/2009 05:57:57
Mark McCann 39.

Think you better check your history my friend. Redcoats put down a cry for independance in Edinburgh and in Glasgow in 1800 and 1900. In one of the fracas Redcoats fired on Scottish civilians, rather than just busting heads and arresting convicting and hanging the culprits. I cant remeber how many were shot and killed by Redcoat Rifle fire. Must go and check but I do remeber it was a few, not just one or two.
To my knowelege, Glasgow and Edinburgh have always been in Scotland.
In 1999 New Labour negotiated with Scotlands first minister Donald Dewar and the fledgling Scottish Parliament. It was at that time that Scottish water from Berwick on Tweed to Carnoustie changed ownership from Scotland to England.
This then gave England the ability to announce the invented country of Regio territoria, completely covered by water and 100 fathoms of the North Sea. England now have huge gas fields, with which they have made deals swapping rights to gas deposits for fishing rights in order for english fishing boats from the south coast to fish.
Yes England have moved the water border. Not the land border.
The next area for Oil exploitation is on the west coast. There has been exploration goin on round the solway to the far north for over 20 years, the atlantic has been extensively mapped. The reason it hasnt been exploited yet is the cost to bring it ashore, the North sea is much cheaper to exploit.

Yes England are moving the borders and the goalposts.

Vote SNP, its time.

Alba gu brath.
42

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 07/11/2009 07:13:05
#41 Eduardinho

"Well it should be interesting to see what they say if Scotland did return 20-25 SNP MP's"

Since their are 59 MPs from Scotland the Magic number is 30, however I am not sure if having the majority of Scottish MPs declare Independence would actually do it legally, though they would carry a lot of wait in persuading the International Community that a referendum was a necessity to decide this.

You would probably be on firmer ground legally if you went the root of having the Scottish Parliament rescind the Act Of Union.
43

Jobless recovery,

Fife 07/11/2009 07:52:18
This is all a major distraction. Referenda on Welsh and Scottish 'independence' is a load of old tosh.

Cameron has betrayed the people of Wales and Scotland by refusing to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. This is what really matters, not some pro-EU nationalist rubbish about being free from the union and willing slaves in the EU.
44

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 07/11/2009 07:59:26
A referendum for Wales is not a problem as it does not have any UK oil in its territorial waters.
45

Gdgy,

07/11/2009 08:25:12
Cameron would have referenda on carrot size regulations if the EU was involved but not for Scottish independence - shows he knows where his power base is!
46

Jings MacCrivvens,

07/11/2009 08:53:37
Now there's a surpise! Cameron showing that he is just as two faced as Brown.
Must be because nowadays Labour and Tory are actually one and the same thing.
47

watcher,

Edinburgh 07/11/2009 09:10:50
Surprised the Nats don`t have as much info on this seeing they vote with the Tory`s.
48

common sense voice,

07/11/2009 09:11:26
britain needs scotland, nobody would miss the welsh..
49

Ranald Newal,

07/11/2009 09:11:34
There should’ve been no double standards seen here.
There is no double standard to be seen here.
There is no real negative involved here either.
Look to see what they are actually doing to decide.
This is a positive step for the people within the existing system.
The Welsh assembly want to ask their own people on extending the assembly’s own powers within the existing system.
The Conservative party are usually seen to be against centralised Government.
There are no double standards.
50

Jings MacCrivvens,

07/11/2009 09:13:15
#47
As part of your getting out more, perhaps you could learn the difference between a possessive and a plural.
51

TWC,

exLabour 07/11/2009 09:21:06
Obviously the Welsh don't have oil and gas.
52

Ranald Newal,

07/11/2009 09:25:49
common sense voice@48,09:11:26
------------------------------
What a negative and nasty thing to say.
I would miss the Welsh.
53

Ranald Newal,

07/11/2009 09:29:11
TWC@51,09:21:06
---------------
Looking at things in a positive light I see people before oil and gas.
54

Mc Max ,

07/11/2009 09:31:13
51.
My thoughts exactly.
So much for Camerons respect for Scotland.
Lying little upper class twit.
55

Ranald Newal,

07/11/2009 09:43:07
Mc Max@54,09:31:13
------------------
A positive person would’ve seen the Welsh with less in their assembly than our own parliament.
A positive person wouldn’t mind these people any of the powers we’ve got.
56

frank mcbride,

lusitania 07/11/2009 09:55:36
Mark McCann.

Although, I believe, in International Law, if the SNP were to win the majority of Westminster seats it could do so.

However, my understanding of the SNP position is that it would still want to have a Referendum on the issue.

Fortunately, unlike the Unionist Alliance, the SNP believes in Democracy.
57

Rab FitzKay,

07/11/2009 09:55:37
Ranald Newal
>55< I was going to say I was in agreement with the others until I read the things you said. Now I find I agree with you and I think any right minded person would agree too.
58

Ben Thehoose,

07/11/2009 10:15:48
This double standards idea is wrong because one is not comparing like with like.

The Welsh want the powers the Scots have. The SNP want the powers that Iceland has. Quite different.
59

lulach mac gille coemgain,

07/11/2009 10:32:20
Rule no #1 Don’t give a vote obn something you may lose unless you want to lose it!

Hey! and the poor English are worried they are going to be Governed from mainland Europe as well - they are even talking about a referendum for against losing London powers - ha ha ha ! now they know what it’s like!

Home rule for Scotland ! A voice stronger voice in the united Europe ! Leave the poor we England oot in the cold.

60

John S,

07/11/2009 10:39:43
Labour Party-UK-GE-Scotland-2005 received 38.87% of the total votes cast which resulted in 41 (70%) out of the 59 seats.

SNP same election received 17.66% of the total votes cast which resulted in 6 (10%) out of the 59 seats.

SNP received 32.9% of the total votes cast in the 2007 SP elections.

TNS Polls - average of 37.7% over 7 polls Aug 07 to May 09 who agreed to the proposed question on Scottish independence.
61

watcher,

edinburgh 07/11/2009 11:05:01
#50 does that mean that the Nats are not Scots Tory`s and don`t vote for their policies? You`re an obvious candidate for clever Nat of the year with your command of English.
62

Temple,

North Italy 07/11/2009 11:20:29
"after he agreed he would allow a referendum that could lead to more powers for the Welsh Assembly."

of course Cameron agree , he's not stupid , Welsh have nothing to offer to London instead of Scotland that is a goldmine
63

Jings MacCrivvens,

07/11/2009 11:21:28
#61
Well perhaps I have a better chance of that than you. BTW you have just repeated your misuse of the apostrophe AGAIN in post #61.
I despair of you.
64

Rab FitzKay,

07/11/2009 11:28:14
Further to my comments earlier I texted a few people to ask them their thoughts. Before anyone asks it was 10 people and I was surprised they answered this quickly on a Saturday morning. Half of them I asked their thoughts on the double standard as with the story. The other half I put it to them as Ranald Newal first. Without exception only those asked about the double standard without first having them put as Ranald Newal agree they were double standards. My conclusions are Alasdair Allan is a very clever politician who knows how to press the right buttons.
65

danbob,

07/11/2009 11:33:33
Scots have a taste here of what is coming. Scotland is not important to a political party that has little support there. Salmond has marched you to the top of the hill. He had better keep marching because if he brings you down again you will find Scotland treated with more contempt.
66

danbob,

07/11/2009 11:36:25
62# I think you will find that the Welsh are seen as more important as a people to the english than scots are. The english have a much stronger affinity to the welsh.
67

lulach mac gille coemgain,

07/11/2009 11:38:49
#65 Whit are yoo on ? Scotland has always been treated with contempt from England except for aboot ten minutes when Queen Victoria bought Balmoral.
68

Masterpiece,

07/11/2009 11:40:57
Having spent the last five days with English people from Birmingham and London it is clear from their conversations that they do not see any difference between the Scots and the English. We are all British they would say in jest meaning that we were all English to one degree or another.

The Scots are our greatest friends and we understand each other afterall we have lived on the same island for centuries speaking the same language and helping one another. They just don't see there are differences other than minor insignificant ones as we speak the same language.
Now for some reason they saw the Welsh and Irish as being different and very different from the English.

Could this be the reason?
69

Marian,

07/11/2009 11:50:00
If ever there was any doubt previously we can be sure that David Cameron has now shown himself to be a complete shyster because of his double standards over referendums on the EU constitution, Calman commission and Scotland future, and now further devolution powers for Wales.

Gordon Brown and Nick Clegg are also shysters since they too have denied the voters of the UK their inalienable democratic right to pass judgement on the Lisbon treaty and the voters of Scotland their inalienable democratic right to decide on the shape of their constitutional future within the UK.

The EU has far too many faults and the UK has even more so far as Scotland is concerned and the only practical way forward now is for Scotland to become an independent nation again with the same kind of relationship to the EU as Norway has.

70

TWC,

exLabour 07/11/2009 11:52:42
65 danbob

Like him or loath him Salmond has brought Fiscal Autonomy within our grasp, the referendum would force the Government of whatever hue to give us control of our Finances or face a big swing to Independence.
The current Union system is unfair and not fit for Scottish needs.
If nothing more happened than the Money was spent locally it would bring more work and prosperity to Scotland.
If the MPs are fiddling at Westminster just think what the parasites round about them are up to.
71

danbob,

07/11/2009 11:54:40
67# No they have not. A figment of your imagination. You need to invent that lie to justify your rant. Firstly I am talking here about the political contempt not the man in the street. Politicaly Salmond is setting Scotland up to be knocked down at every oportunity by a future government that has no support and less influance in Scotland.
72

danbob,

07/11/2009 11:56:37
69# I agree with you there. He is a political pigmy.
73

danbob,

07/11/2009 12:04:40
70# Scotland is a sceptic spot on the head of England. That is not my view. It is the view of the political elite in London. Scotland will never get money spent on it that it feels it deserves. My point is this. The torys view Scotland as a side show. London and the shires matter. Scotland does not. If Salmond gets knocked back in a referendom then Scotland influance will be even weaker. It's all or nothing.
74

TWC,

exLabour 07/11/2009 12:06:37
71 danbob
SLAB should be working with the Nats and the Unions to get Fiscal Autonomy that way Scotland willl always be socialist and wilcontrol all the OIl, Gas & tax revenues.

Why are they so reluctant to let Scotland control it's own funds? they removed any options that gave Scotland control when Brown took control of the Calman Omission.
75

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 12:10:42
68 "The Scots are our greatest friends and we understand each other afterall we have lived on the same island for centuries speaking the same language and helping one another."
Don't make me laugh! The only reason Scotland is still a country is because of the many battles we've fought with England. I admit we live peacefully now but have you seen the poverty and deprivation in the central belt? The life expectancy of the por parts of Glasgow is lower than Palestine! And because of unionist lies our our oil wealth is pumped down to westminster under our very noses while we scrape and beg for more money under the Barnett formula. The sooner this FACT is generally known and shouted from the rooftops the better for both of our countries.
The fact that you think we are closer to you than the welsh just shows the depth of ignorance shown towards Scotland by our English "friends". Once we are governing ourselves and are treated with the respect any sovereign country expects and deserves, I suspect we will get on a lot better with our English neighbours. Until then we will have to put up with the condescending attitude so prevalent in England where the "Jocks" are considered a good bunch to chuck in on the frontline as cannon fodder for the now defunct British empire.
76

langtonian,

uphall 07/11/2009 12:11:24
David Cameron is unlikely to be next PM.very possibly not even leader of Consrvative party;that his jacket is seen to be "hinging" from a finly balanced "shoogly political nail"is as plain as a pikestaff.

His current seriouse spat with his own party members requieres he deploys the tactic of dissemination,covering his embarasment by the use of smoke screens,in the given case that is Welsh devolution,the fact is any subject matter would be a political "hidey hole" for him to run for cover.

Asking him to reveal his current political relationship with(to name but one) Kenneth Clarke,conservative front bech member would be of greater interest for one and all.

Smoke Screens, like referenda are opaque and unreliable indicators when mayhem is sacrosanct.
77

danbob,

07/11/2009 12:12:56
74# Yes I broadly agree. The problem that SLAB will be this, should Salmond ever win a referendom where do they go from there. How do they defend the national party and then have influence in a seperated Scotland.
78

danbob,

07/11/2009 12:20:26
75# I think your just full of hate and blinded by it. Life expectancy in the central belt is mainly caused by high levels of smoking, bad diet, drugs and drinking levels that leave much of the UK in the shade. Scots are killing themselves and need to face that fact before anything can be done to help. Also has it ever occured to you that perhaps Scotlands problems with jobs and industry could be caused by your love affair with socialism. Good God most Glaswegians would vote for a pig in a red rossete before renouncing the very system that is surpressing them.
79

TWC,

exLabour 07/11/2009 12:22:55
77 danbob,
Yes their problem is not that they disagree with the Nats, it is that they don't do the right things for Scotland.

I actually don't know what Labour policy is for Scotland all I see is what is missing.

oh sorry they want everybody to be an apprentice, but once time served what then?

Start another apprenticeship?
80

Mssy G,

07/11/2009 12:43:14
The Unionists will do their best to block a referendum in Scotland because they need us.


Scotland is rich in oil & gas and there has been several new finds over the past couple of years.


One of the most recent being The Glenlivet Gas find in September this year.



"North Sea Oil could haul the UK out of huge debt"

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1470491/?UserKey=



The only way Scotland will have a chance of a decent standard of living for all, particularly areas like Glasgow North East, which has suffered deprivation under the hands of Labour for 74 years is to vote for SNP.


Glasgow North East can take control of this situation and lead the way by voting for the SNP.


This would send a clear message to Browns failed government & Cameron who is of no relevance in Scotland!

Scotland deserves better
81

Mssy G,

07/11/2009 12:45:20
Can any unionist on here explain why the unionist party's do not want/will not allow Scotland to have a referendum?
82

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 12:46:47
78 I'm not full of hate at all, I've just got eyes and an unblinkered mind. Sure the life expectancy is caused by those things but what drives those people to them? Hopelessness, low expectations and lack of self esteem all caused by having no prospect of ever having a decent wage or a job. This caused by the chronic under investment in those areas where a once proud, hardworking, industrious community has been hobbled by the continuing lack of investment while the south east of England is fed with OUR oil wealth.

I'm not full of hate, I just can't stand this continuing idiocy that ignores the truth. If we had direct access to our revenues we would be building ships like the Finns and investing in the social structure that hardly exists in the horrendous, third world ghettos of the central belt.
83

Warden Resurrected,

07/11/2009 12:48:08
TWC
70 - Don’t get me wrong I’m not totally against the idea of full fiscal autonomy, but to let fat sally free to mishandle more of our money sounds like letting a paedophile free reign of a nursery to me. The imagery alone makes me shiver. Had this Scottish government shown a modicum of sense so far in the way they’d budgeted I think the suggestion, at a pinch, could’ve been worth consideration.
84

Jo Public,

07/11/2009 13:17:18
Who cares what Eton Tory Boy says. It's not up to him and his stuffy silver spooned tossars to tell us what we can and cannot have. Vote SNP and stick two fingers up to him.
85

Hobbe,

07/11/2009 13:47:58
"This then gave the westminster government the rights to gas supplies under the North Sea. To release Scotland from the union I would presume that westminster will be twisting arms to win Oil fields in the North Sea by negotiated settlement.
Scotland would have to give away OIL, to regain her status as an independant country."

Although the sinister and sneaky baragining away of Scottish Territorial Waters, approved by the New Scottish parliament under the 'father of Scotland' Donald Dewar and Labour was underhand and wrong, the fact is that how the assets of union, be they Scottish or English, are divided upon Independence is not in the hands of Westminster.

far from it.

This comes under International Law, Scotland is an equal partner in the union, unlike Ireland (formerly) and currently Northern ireland and Wales, and this makes for legal conditions that are simply not the remit of either Westminster or a biased opinion piece in the English edition of the Mail or Telegraph.

Also there is Scots law to be taken into account.

My advice is to ignore the ranters and ravers, the few unionists who 'tell' us informed folk what will happen in the event of Independence, and look up what a constitutional expert and QC such as Ian hamilton says on the matter.

cheers
86

Gordon, Canonmills,

07/11/2009 13:58:45
#15 mark mccann
"Not sure how the constitution works on this, anyone know? I'm assuming if we had a majority of SNP MPs in Scotland, Westminster wouldn't have much choice, referendum or not. But what's the legal stance? ..."

In the first place there is no such thing as a UK constitution, just an accumulation of laws.

Whatever the interpretation of the present legal position, there is a precedent, and a very pragmatic and successful one: when the Irish returned a (vast) majority of MPs in favour of Home Rule in the 1919 election, they simply refused to go to Westminster and set up their own parliament in Dublin, the Dáil. It is still working perfectly today!

We have to learn to think outside the box.
87

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 14:13:54
What we need to do is keep telling the truth about our resources. The biggest reason most Scots think independence is a bad idea is because they believe the lie that we'd be bankrupt without our "subsidy" from the English. If we keep providing undeniable evidence that we'd actually be a lot better off they will eventually believe it. With the campaign for the referendum kicking off on St Andrews day, I expect the SNP will use this as a platform to hammer this home. If we can't appeal to the hearts of the waverers then I'm sure we'll appeal to their pockets.
Did anyone notice the answer that Tavish Scott gave to my question on per capita and geograpic shares of oil revenue? He completely ducked the issue, saying that oil prices fluctuated wildly and wasn't a firm basis to base such a huge issue on. The simple fact is that even if oil prices were half what they are now we'd still have one of the strongest econimies in the world. He can't answer my question because his whole reason for defending the union is based on the per capita share that the unionists base their lie on. And this from the Shetland MSP!
88

Warden Resurrected,

07/11/2009 14:18:18
Ranald Newal
Rab FitzKay

Your comments might be well intended, but the nationalists on this site are so far into denial they’ve substituted right and wrong together with logic and made them as they see them. Lord only knows what can penetrate the wall surrounding the nationalist republic of Scotoma.
89

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 14:26:40
88 Denial? Ha! That's rich! We base our arguments on facts. You base your arguments on lies and fear. If, just once, i saw a unionist argument that could stand up to any serious analysis, I'd eat my Scotamish sporran.

Come on Warden, give it a try, let's hear your solid, factual based reasons for staying in the union

Cue bluster, insults, spelling corrections and general mindless piffle..
90

Observer,,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 14:46:24
This is a bit of a silly story. All the Welsh want is the same powers as Holyrood. Mind you Cameron shows his lack of savvy in supporting that - when the Welsh get what we have they will just want more - just like we do.

However much unionists may argue to the contrary there is only one direction of travel here. And that is leading to the dismantlement of the United Kingdom.
91

Observer,,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 14:48:11
88 My granny always told me that talking to yourself is the first sign of madness. You and your many guises must be completely bonkers then as you chat to yourself all the time.
92

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

07/11/2009 15:15:13
87

"If we keep providing undeniable evidence that we'd actually be a lot better off they will eventually believe it."

That would take a miracle, since such evidence does not exist.

Nattism = delusional paranoia.
93

TWC,

exLabour 07/11/2009 15:28:41
83 Warden Resurrected,

They are still a minority so the budget would have to be approved and you are being irrational apart from the Independence question most of Salmond's policies are old Labour policies, that's the big problem that SLAB have.

We should be in cahoots on all the policies we agree on and vote against Independence.
Labour should actually support his referendum and drive for FFA.
94

JT,

07/11/2009 15:34:30
Excuse me Mr Cameron, but just how many tory msp's/mp's in Scotland??? - Exactly! Next..
95

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 15:38:47
92 The evidence does exist. Geographic share of the oil revenues is an internationally recognised law. Per capita share is a formula made up by unionists to hoodwink the populace. Disprove that Group Captain and you might have a point but you can't, can you?
Who's deluded? Get back in your Spitfire and fly away.
96

,

07/11/2009 15:46:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

07/11/2009 16:01:02

"Double standards row as Cameron says 'yes' to Welsh referendum – but 'no' to Scots one"

Just noticed this is a stupid headline.

The facts are actually as follows:

Cameron is saying his *opinion* on referenda is that they are a waste of time.

He is also saying that the *decision* on Scottish and Welsh referenda is not his to make - it is up to the Scot Parl and Welsh Assembly.

And the Tory position in those bodies is decided by Aunty Annabel and Nick Bourne, not DC.

Simple.


98

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 16:02:03
96 "In 2007-08, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was a deficit of £7.1 billion (6.3 per cent of GDP) excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £6.4 billion (5.5 per cent of GDP) including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a surplus of £219 million (0.2 per cent of GDP) including an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue"

This includes public spending, which includes our share of defence spending in Iraq and Afghanistan and the financing of the Trident submarines. The very fact that per capita share is included makes this document a flawed one.
Why else is per capita share always used in this argument?
If you subtract the share of public spending that goes on UK policies like the Olymics, the channel tunnel, the cross rail link in London, defense and foreign policy spending, you find a similiar situation to Norway, who actually have less oil production than us and aren't involved in expensive, empire building, morally corrupt, wars.

Contact? Contact! Chocks away! Tally Ho!
99

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 16:15:45
"It must be concluded therefore that large revenues and balance of payments
gains would indeed accrue to a Scottish Government in the event of
independence provided that steps were taken either by carried interest or by
taxation to secure the Government ‘take’. Undoubtedly this would banish any
anxieties the Government might have had about its budgetary position or its
balance of payments. The country would tend to be in chronic surplus to a
quite embarrassing degree and its currency would become the hardest in
Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian kroner. Just as deposed
monarchs and African leaders have in the past used the Swiss franc as a
haven of security, so nowwould the Scottish pound be seen as a good hedge
against inflation and devaluation and the Scottish banks could expect to find
themselves inundated with a speculative inflow of foreign funds"

From the McCrone report, which has since been assessed as actually being to low an estimation of the oil resources and revenues..

Bandits at 12 o'clock!
100

JeannieMac,

07/11/2009 16:44:51
Cameron says, "We wouldn't stand in the way of that request."

When the PEOPLE vote on it, then it isn't a ***** request. Has the man NEVER heard of democracy?

Apparently NOT!
101

danbob,

07/11/2009 16:51:13
99#Heres a truth for you.

Why bring up what Londons got. Do you think only Scotland ever contribute anything at all. You and people like you rant about the olympics and cross rail and London this, and London that. In reality your contribution to anything at all amounts to about 7% of anything. London is a vibrant, metropolitan city with an exciting feel. A place where the world wants to be. I walked down Green park last Sunday down the mall through horse guards and down Whitehall and met more tourists than Scotland gets in a week. London has a city centre. Edinburgh has a epicentre. The olympics is fitting to a great city, The commonwealth games is fitting to a city considered as a sideshow.
102

Mc Max ,

07/11/2009 17:14:09
Londons a shoite hole.
103

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 17:14:15
101 Ehhm, the Commonwealth games are in Glasgow, me ole china! And thanks for the tour of Central London, next time take a walk up to Hackney and Dalston then over to Leyton where the Olympic stadium's being built and see if you survive. Harry on yer boat! D'ye ken whit that means? Feckin ignorant Tw@t!
104

jane shore,

london 07/11/2009 17:16:12

Mr Mc Cann #98...Just a few comments.

The London Olympics:- When the IOC stated that only London would be considered as the site for 2012 Games, we were given no vote on the issue. We have had 3 hikes on our Council Taxes so far (about 100 quid) & plenty more to come apparently. Some CT payers in Essex & Herts. are also being stung. No preferential tickets for us either........most seats are going to the Hospitality Sector. And by the way who headed UK's successful bid.?..a Scot (Craig Readdie)

Cross Rail costs are being subsidised by SEast Business rates.

As or The Channel Tunnel...where else would you locate this important link with mainland Europe?

As already commented. It is up to Scotland, Wales & N Ireland to decide on their own referendums...we aint stopping you.
105

danbob,

07/11/2009 17:27:01
103. I would survive very well mate but I wouldn't fancy Drumchapel on a dark night.
106

jane shore,

london 07/11/2009 17:28:24

I quite agree #103. Those areas you mention (Hackney etc.) are greatly in need of regeneration...they are amongst the top 10 (may even be top 5, can't recollect) most deprived areas in UK. That is the beneficial news, as far as the cost of the Olympics, can be accounted for.
107

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 07/11/2009 17:43:37
Yeah! If we cant get our referendum then make the general election the referendum. The campaign starts now!!! The unionists are getting really good at shooting themselves in the foot and this is no different...
108

Mssy G,

07/11/2009 17:54:53
97

"And the Tory position in those bodies is decided by Aunty Annabel and Nick Bourne, not DC."



I think you will find that the Scottish branch of Labour, Lib-dems & Conservatives Scotland in actual fact take their orders from their Unionist bosses in Westminster.


Simple!
109

Mssy G,

07/11/2009 18:11:17
101 danbob

"London is a vibrant, metropolitan city with an exciting feel. A place where the world wants to be."


Good of you to share your feelings with us all!

I expect many tourists visit Scotland for completely different reasons.


I don't really think Scotland is trying to compete with London when it comes to tourism.


The people in my world certainly don't want to be in London. Much prefer the country life, bit more laid back & chilled out as apposed to the hustle & bustle of an over populated & polluted city!



No comparison!


110

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 18:18:22
107 Jane, having lived and worked in London for ten years I am well aware of the financing of these projects. My point is quite simple, the oil revenues when discovered in the late sixties came just in time to save a bankrupt Britain, since then it has financed numerous projects in England allowing the government to borrow on the security to finance more and more projects like roadbuilding, schools and hospitals. I'm not grudging England that, however the continuing phallacy that the English actually subsidise us does rankle, especially if you go from the deprived areas in England and compare them to Scotlands. And as I've previously stated I have first hand knowledge of both.
As I'm sure Danbob will tell you ours are a lot worse. What I want now is a simple acknowledgement that we have contributed far more to this union than we've got back, in industry, ingenuity, soldiers, and oil. Scotland surely deserves to leave this union with a slap on the back and a big thank you for our contribution to the United kingdom. Let us now bring our country up to the level of prosperity that most European countries with huge natural resources enjoy, without this bitter, backbiting, misinformation and lies that perpetrate our relationship. Then we can start to have an adult, mutually respectful partnership. Not this condescending, belittling, arranged marriage, that only benefits one party.
111

Observer,,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 18:39:46
111 Sorry Mark but I don't agree. I think the areas of multiple deprivation in both some of the London Boroughs, and in particular some areas of the North, are far worse than anything we have in Scotland. And what makes it worse, particularly in London, is the juxtaposition with obscene wealth.

I agree that Scotland needs to become independent, but I don't agree that Scotland is the only area to have suffered under the present Union. The North of England has too, and social inequality is rife even in London and the South East, despite the fact that it dominates and sucks the blood out of the rest of the UK.
112

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

07/11/2009 19:40:10
Oh, I see McCann's had me censored because he doesn't like facts.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2009/06/18101733/1

"In 2007-08, the estimated fiscal balance in Scotland, that is the estimated current budget balance plus estimated net capital investment, was ... a deficit of £3.8 billion (2.7 per cent of GDP) when an estimated geographical share of North Sea revenue is included."

NB "fiscal balance". Not just "current account". Try telling your bank manager that capital spending doesn't count.

I'm not using the "per capita" numbers, McCann. Got that?

"Norway, who actually have less oil production than us"

No, they don't. They have higher current oil&gas production and a multiple of our reserves. No comparison.

"From the McCrone report, which has since been assessed as actually being to low an estimation of the oil resources and revenues.."

Has it really? By whom?

In fact, it turns out that the only numbers in the McCrone paper - which were forecasts, not fact - turned out to be a bit more optimistic than happened in reality.

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/2009/02/mccrone-myth-refuted.html

And in any case, why is a 1973 forecast relevant? In case you hadn't noticed, North Sea production peaked in 2000, has declined by 4-5% a year since, and is expected to go on declining at 5-6%.

What are you proposing? Building a time machine and going back to reclaim oil revenue from the past?

Sounds more sensible than most Nattist policies.

Bye-bye, I'm leaving you to your delusional paranoia.
113

Observer,,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 19:47:17
Folks that was a Scottish Tory, an endangered species. He should not be deleted because who knows when we will see one again. We let the dodo die out don't let Scottish Tories die out, they are an essential part of the biosphere (that's enough, ed)
114

jane shore,

london 07/11/2009 20:07:56

Good evening Observer. I.obviously agreed with most of your comment @ 112. Not sure about the S.East "sucking the blood...etc" Sounds like my Lancastrian husband who used to come with the same such wide sweeping statements. He has changed his mind since.

I wonder whether anyone has ever evaluated over the last 300+ years whether either England or Scotland has gained or lost economically over the other within the UK?

(& never mind the rest of GB, it would be nice just to have our really own devolved Parliament here.)

Whatever, it's becoming a bigoted petty relationship. Time for change.

West Ham to win tomorrow?
115

Warden Resurrected,

The Nationalist Republic of Scotoma 07/11/2009 20:57:55
Observer
91-Your granny told you talking to yourself was the first sign of madness for a good reason and you should've taken the hint. This is the only way you're going to see me with anymore guises than you see here. I don't need more guises than Warden Resurrected to take you down a peg or two.
116

The Answer,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 21:19:45
111 mark mccann,07/11/2009 18:18:22

"What I want now is a simple acknowledgement that we have contributed far more to this union than we've got back"

scotsland managing to provide only 6.7% of new UK university graduates, can hardly be called a contribution when your population share of the UK is 8.4%.



422,126 (100%) UK Domiciles new fulltime undergraduates 2009

359,290 (85.11%) England domiciled
20,230 (4.79%) Wales domiciled
13,627 (3.23%) N Ireland domiciled

a tiny

28,979 (6.7%) scotland domiciled

UCAS 21-10-2009
tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6
117

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 21:23:30
Just for the recor, I didn't censor Group Captain Mandrake! I've got better things to do. I stand by my facts and if he doesn't like them then that's his problem.
Observer, I know the north of England is deprived, England seems to have given up on the north of it's country, that's the reason they are building so many houses in the south east while rows and rows lie empty in the old mill towns of the north. The only reason we still have some industry and investment is because of what we have off our shores.
Imagine what another Tory government will do to Scotland. Sooner we're out of this the better.

Glad we're at least having a pertinant debate instead of the usual slanging match!
118

mark mccann,

07/11/2009 21:35:27
117 Don't get me started! OK, how about the amount of Scottish soldiers who have died in various wars in comparison to other parts of the UK. Then there's industry, who invented steam engines, built and developed ships, bicycles, pumping machines etc etc etc etc, not to mention the medical advances and discoveries, penicillon, cure for TB,cloning... and finally the much debated but very obvious oil. Just to mention a few! All despite a tiny population.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, 117!
119

The Answer,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 21:44:34
#118

"I stand by my facts and if he doesn't like them then that's his problem"

Real fact's, Yorkshire and the Humber (Y+H) same size population as scotsland...


1,308,000 males in employment scotsland (588,000 public sector)
1,281,000 males in employment Y+H (508,000 public sector workers)

So, scotsland has 80,000 more public sector workers than Y+H, yet manages to employ only 27,000 more malkes than Y+H.


Employment

tinyurl.com/y8u3n3w

Public Sector

tinyurl.com/yfmbkeh
120

The Answer,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 21:47:44
#119

"how about the amount of Scottish soldiers who have died in various wars in comparison to other parts of the UK"


Another scotch myth, just like the scotch myth about more scotch than English having a university education...


422,126 (100%) UK Domiciles new fulltime undergraduates 2009

359,290 (85.11%) England domiciled
20,230 (4.79%) Wales domiciled
13,627 (3.23%) N Ireland domiciled

a tiny

28,979 (6.7%) scotland domiciled

UCAS 21-10-2009
tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6
121

The Answer,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 22:00:44
1,722,58 income support claiments England

175,620 income support claiments Yorkshire and The Humber (Y+H)(63,000 males)

a massive

204,000 income supoport claiments scotsland (78,000 males)

So, scotsland has 80,000 more public sector workers than Y+H, and 28,000 more income support claiments.

Seems for sure Y+H is more of a place to do business.


Income support claiments
tinyurl.com/lpzt28
122

Newsflash,

http://tinyurl.com/myy4wy 07/11/2009 22:02:10
#121. TIME FOR MEDICATION, Your not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

Scotland is known the world over for the high standards of its education system. For more than 200 years, a Scottish education has been among the best preparations for life and work. There are two reasons for this.

The first is that Scots have long seen education as the embodiment of democracy, giving people at all levels of society the opportunity to increase their knowledge, earning potential and status.

The second is the structure of the Scottish education system, which was adopted by both the French and American systems. The emphasis has long been on learning rather than teaching, using trained and dedicated graduates.

The Scottish system emphasises vocational training, science and technology.

Scotland, with 13 universities and more than 55 colleges of further education, produces the highest number of graduates per head of population in the European Union.





Scotland, with 13 universities and more than 55 colleges of further education, produces the highest number of graduates per head of population in the European Union.






Scotland, with 13 universities and more than 55 colleges of further education, produces the highest number of graduates per head of population in the European Union.






Scotland, with 13 universities and more than 55 colleges of further education, produces the highest number of graduates per head of population in the European Union.



http://tinyurl.com/ygwpopp



Got it yet?


123

The Answer,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 22:08:43
#123

21-10-09 UCAS Website...

Fact's not myth's

422,126 (100%) UK Domiciles new fulltime undergraduates 2009

359,290 (85.11%) England domiciled
20,230 (4.79%) Wales domiciled
13,627 (3.23%) N Ireland domiciled

a tiny

28,979 (6.7%) scotland domiciled

UCAS 21-10-2009
tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6
124

,

07/11/2009 22:20:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
125

The Answer,

Glasgow 07/11/2009 22:37:06
For every Westminister parliamentary constituency Seat!

a massive

680 new undergraduates England

a tiny

491 new undergraduates scotsland


For every Westminister parliamentary constituency Seat!

a tiny

9 new undergraduates from England elect to study in scotsland

a massive

29 new undergraduates from scotsland elect to study in England


For every Westminister parliamentary constituency Seat!

a tiny

1% of England's new undergraduates elect to study in scotsland


a massive

6% of scotslands new undergraduates elect to study in England




422,126 (100%) UK Domiciles new fulltime undergraduates 2009

359,290 (85.11%) England domiciled
20,230 (4.79%) Wales domiciled
13,627 (3.23%) N Ireland domiciled

a tiny

28,979 (6.7%) scotland domiciled

UCAS 21-10-2009
tinyurl.com/ygo8wy6
126

mark mccann,

08/11/2009 00:33:11
The answer, except no one asked you...

Pity you didn't show the percentages of deaths in action per head of pop. Or the literacy rankings of Scotland in the world, not just Britain, in the last few hundred years. Or the fact that as a nation with our own legal and education system we're bound to have a larger public sector relative to England. Cherry pick all you want mate.

Once again your not the answer, it's people like you who are the problem.
127

jafra loo,

08/11/2009 01:07:55
irrelevant news
128

Alan B,

08/11/2009 20:24:31
I think Camerons position will be just taken from the view of the scottish tories and the welsh tories respectively.

The welsh tories being more flexible are making abit of a comeback in Wales and the scottish tories so out there and not willing to participate in anything constructive with regard the constitution are just irrelevent.

Camerons position is possibly also derived from the idea that for him to bring about english votes on english issues and rid himself of scottish labour mps and welsh mps he needs the welsh parliament to have similar powers as the scottish parliament.

There are 2 issues to sorting out the mess labour made of devolution and the difficulty of creating a sudo english parliament within westminster and that is 1)sorting out the financial situation 2)the mismatch of devolution powers between the scottish, welsh and n. irish parliaments.




 

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