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Independence referendum: It's all yours Alex



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Published Date: 12 May 2008
A REFERENDUM on Scottish independence now appears almost inevitable after Wendy Alexander, Labour's leader at Holyrood, announced yesterday that she would not block the SNP's referendum bill in 2010.
Widening the already damaging rift between herself and the Prime Minister, Ms Alexander repeated her support for a vote on independence as a way of clearing up Scotland's constitutional future.

But then she went even further. Aware that the only option left open to her is to back the SNP's own referendum bill when it comes before the Parliament in two years' time, Ms Alexander said her party would "not vote down" a bill which gave Scots the chance to decide their future.

Labour's Scottish Parliament leader also insisted she would not resign, despite considerable private misgivings from her parliamentary party about the way this issue has been handled and a public warning from one former UK minister that her position was now "untenable".

Ms Alexander said that she "very much hoped" to be leading Labour in the Scottish Parliament at the next election and insisted that she was still "good friends" with Gordon Brown, despite the obvious differences between them on this crucial issue.

But it was on the SNP's own referendum bill that she really surprised both her colleagues and opponents. Ms Alexander said she would not give the SNP government "blank cheques" over the referendum, insisting that she would not decide whether to support the SNP's bill until it came before the Parliament.

However, she was clear that, on the principle of the referendum, the Scottish Labour group would not actually vote against the bill, though it could abstain. The abstentions of the Labour MSPs would be enough to give Alex Salmond the support he needs to get the bill through the Parliament.

Ms Alexander said: "We think the people of Scotland should be allowed to speak and we will not vote down the opportunity for Scots to speak but we will want to harry them (the Scottish Government] on things like what the question is, what the process is, and we think it is right that, after 30 years, Scotland should be given the chance to speak," she told BBC Scotland's Politics Show.

Ms Alexander's comments delighted the Nationalists and appalled her Unionist allies. Annabel Goldie, the Scottish Tory leader, said Ms Alexander had handed a comprehensive victory to the SNP. "She has given game, set and match to the Nationalists. It will be their plan, their timing – and their question," she said.

Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP Deputy First Minister, said Ms Alexander's concession represented "substantial gains" for the independence cause. She added: "The one thing that has been made clear by Wendy Alexander is Labour's concession of the right of the Scottish Parliament to consult the people on independence for Scotland."

A spokesman for the First Minister said: "As far as we are concerned, it is the best possible birthday present Labour could have given the Scottish Government."

Brian Wilson, a former energy minister, said if Ms Alexander had made this announcement without Downing Street support, which she has not secured, then her position was probably "untenable".

Labour MSPs refused to break ranks yesterday. Of 12 approached by The Scotsman, all gave their public support to Ms Alexander and several said they would not comment in any way on the referendum issue. However, David Cairns, the Scotland Office minister, said he was "entirely at one" with Ms Alexander on the referendum issue.

He admitted the chaos over the referendum issue had meant it had "not been a good week" for Labour. Mr Cairns said: "They (Scottish Labour] have the right, as Wendy Alexander said, and I respect that right, to decide on the tactics and the timing of these issues."

Yesterday's development marked the latest twist in what has been an extraordinary week of policy announcements, confusion and U-turns within the Labour Party – played out in public, to the consternation of its MPs and MSPs.

Ms Alexander started the controversy when she made it clear that she wanted a swift resolution to the independence issue. "Bring it on," she declared.

Ms Alexander had spoken to Mr Brown on the issue before she made her announcement, but the Prime Minister had yet to make up his mind on whether to support it or not. Ms Alexander continued to push her cause all week, first by suggesting she might table a Labour bill calling for an early referendum. But, as her support for a referendum strengthened, so Mr Brown started to distance himself from it.

The Prime Minister spoke to Ms Alexander during the week but, instead of getting the support she had hoped for, Mr Brown backed away, leaving her isolated and damaged.

Ms Alexander's humiliation looked complete by the end of the week when the Labour Party issued a statement which appeared to abandon key elements of her policy. It coincided with a declaration from the Prime Minister, warning he was "not persuaded" of the case for a referendum and would do "whatever is necessary" to defend the Union.

With Labour MSPs and MPs grumbling openly about the disastrous way in which the issue had been handled, it appeared as if Ms Alexander had no option but to accede to the Downing Street line and drop the whole idea. But, after spending two days in strategy meetings with aides and liaising with senior figures in London, she decided to push on with her policy initiative, even though it was not backed by the Prime Minister.

One more little stumble and it'll be her last as Labour leader

IS Wendy Alexander finished as Labour's Holyrood leader? Not quite, but almost.

She can pull her career round, but it will need a major change of approach, better advice and a steadier grip on her party to do so.

If this furore over the independence referendum had been the first problem to afflict her leadership, she could have emerged with just a large dent to her reputation.

But it is nowhere near the first crisis she has been in – and the effect is cumulative.

She has only been in the job since September last year but, in eight months, she has lost one spin doctor and another press officer, she has become embroiled in a scandal over an illegal donation which almost brought her down and she has managed to cause the biggest policy rift in the Labour Party since devolution.

On top of that, her performances at First Minister's Questions have hardly ever been effective – and on some occasions almost embarrassing.

Not all of this is her fault. Anybody would find it tough going up against the experienced and skilful Alex Salmond, leading a government that is riding high in the polls.

The donation which caused the problems was not actually solicited by her, but by one of her colleagues and, to some extent, she has been left dangling over the referendum by the dithering of the Prime Minister.

But the central problem here is one of perception. Ms Alexander appears to stumble from crisis to crisis and so she becomes the story, not the policies she is advocating.

There is only so long that a leader can hang on once their survival becomes the story.

Her MSPs are concerned. They have started talking about the problems she is having and the very first traces of suggestions of possible replacements are being whispered.

These are, as yet, nowhere near loud enough to be an immediate threat but if Ms Alexander has any more crises, if she was to lose another spin doctor, or she was to become involved in any more financial troubles, then she would be finished.

She has used up all her political lives. One more slip and she is gone.

Independence vote timescale

THE SNP set out its timescale for a 2010 referendum on Scottish independence yesterday.

A Bill introduced in January 2010 could complete its first parliamentary stage by spring; the final stage could be cleared and royal assent granted by summer, the referendum taking place in autumn. That will be after the next Westminster general election, for which the latest possible date is June 2010.






The full article contains 1369 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
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12/05/2008 00:05:23
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karinxxx,

12/05/2008 00:05:43
well i for one am glad that it has finally been cleared up that we will be having a referendum in 2010.

Seeing as labour are not voting it down then there will be a referendum

yay.
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12/05/2008 00:06:53
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Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 12/05/2008 00:08:36

Aye right Weny it sounds like the mother of all retreats to me .

It's time for you to declare Independence from your masters in London
5

subrosa,

12/05/2008 00:12:32
This woman was trumpeted as having a tremendous intellect and ability. Says it all.
6

Jude The Obtuse,

12/05/2008 00:15:44
At last! The BBC has fixed the Real Player stream and I’ve seen the Politics Show.

Much as I hate to admit it, the Paisley fishwife put up a robust argument. David McLetchie was a credible performer too.

My real thanks go to Fiona Hyslop for pointing me in the direction of Annex B.

http://tinyurl.com/6aur9m

When the proposed salmonderendum takes place, the Ballot Paper will contain two choices:

“I AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with
the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an
independent state.”

OR

“I DO NOT AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a
settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland
becomes an independent state.”


Matthew 19:24 springs to mind.
7

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 12/05/2008 00:17:32
"But the central problem here is one of perception. Ms Alexander appears to stumble from crisis to crisis and so she becomes the story, not the policies she is advocating.

There is only so long that a leader can hang on once their survival becomes the story."

KEEP GOING WENDY. YOUR PERFORMANCE IN THE LAST 8 MONTHS HAS BEEN SHOCKING, AND THERE'S NO INDICATION IT'LL CHANGE ANYTIME SOON. BUT GORDON THINKS (I THINK) THAT YOU'RE "AN EXCELLENT LEADER" AND I'M SURE ALEX SALMOND'S DELIGHTED FOR YOU TO CONTINUE IN YOUR CURRENT ROLE. BE SURE TO KEEP YOUR PROMISE MADE YESTERDAY TO NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF AN INDEPENDENCE REFERENDUM IN 2010, AND EVERYONE (BAR ANNABEL & NICOL) WILL BE HAPPY.
8

Richardinho,

12/05/2008 00:18:08
hmm. forget about Scottish independence for a moment-what will the result of this new found independence of the Scottish Labour party be?
9

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12/05/2008 00:22:59
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Jwil,

12/05/2008 00:34:25
Negotiating a settlement could be a rather long process


Maybe, but the priciple will have been established and the patience of the Scottish people won't last for ever.
11

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 12/05/2008 00:38:06
Bring it All On. INDEPENDENCE HERE WE COME. Well done Wendy, what would we have done without you.
12

lachlan,

12/05/2008 00:39:53
i believe greenland (pop.less than 70,000)is soon to vote on indepedence from denmark and the danes are i understand quite suportive of the idea.yet greenland has a fair amount of natural resourses.can anybody confirm this.
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12/05/2008 00:46:06
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12/05/2008 00:48:04
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FS,

Stirling 12/05/2008 00:48:44
Ms Alexander said: "We think the people of Scotland should be allowed to speak and we will not vote down the opportunity for Scots to speak ... we think it is right that, after 30 years, Scotland should be given the chance to speak," she told BBC Scotland's Politics Show.

30 years?

Think 300 and then I might take some of what else you say a little bit more seriously.
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12/05/2008 00:56:42
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12/05/2008 01:00:59
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Senga Jean,

12/05/2008 01:35:14
Such utter contempt for the people of Scotland, All he is interested in is his salary and benefits.
19

Guga II,

Rockall 12/05/2008 03:01:01
That's very nice of wee Wendy, she's going to allow the Scottish people to have a say in their own destiny. Does she expect to be granted a sainthood for that?

Maybe she, and her political masters in London, should have another wee read of Article 1.2 of the United Nations Charter and Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

The people in Scotland have an absolute right to determine their own future, and neither Maggie Broon, The Mouth of the South, the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party, the Tories or the Whigs can stop us; not without breaching international law.

The only way Broon could try and stop us is by emulating that other fat imperialist pig, Churchill, and sending in 10,000 English troops and tanks against the people of Scotland; and I don't think even Broon is stupid enough to try that.
20

Castaway,

12/05/2008 03:18:33
#22 Guga II, Gordon Brown has vowed to do "whatever is necessary" to preserve the United Kingdom and Gordon Brown won't let the Union split.
In 1707: Lest the Scots were not entirely persuaded, propaganda was used and military pressure was brought to bear. Troops were moved to the border in an indication of England's willingness to use force if the other methods failed.
21

somerferg,

perth 12/05/2008 04:23:17
Spot on Guga II
22

Soon to be returnee,

Highlands 12/05/2008 05:08:45
I have a question. If Scotland becomes independent, what happens to the national debt? I can only assume that a portion of it must come Scotland's way. How will they work out how much? Will they use the same flawed calculations as used in the Barnett formula? If so then out of 45 trillion our slice would be single digit trillions. Any attempt to foist more on Scotland would show how unbalanced the current situation really is. If that turns out to be the case, would Scotland have a case for a law suit against England? All I am saying is that the path to independence is anything but straight forward and quick. But, any journey starts with the first step....
23

Dooogie,

Highland 12/05/2008 06:24:25
The "Unionist Canutes" are now up to their necks in the rising Independence tide and still trying to command it to go back. How embarassing for them!!They will soon be like beached whales.
24

steve 1511,

aberdeen 12/05/2008 06:59:50
you can put a red rosette on a monkey and get people to vote for it,you can put a red rosette on the corupt liar wendy the eeejit alexander and people will vote snp.
25

gus1940,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:11:56
It's amazing what barely a year of an SNP administration can do (even a minority one).

In the preceding 8 years of Lab/Lib administration they could have held a referendum and it was never even mentioned.

Suddenly Scottish Labour now say that Scots are being denied the right by the SNP to express their views on independence.

26

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12/05/2008 07:12:37
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12/05/2008 07:13:58
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12/05/2008 07:15:45
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Ubi,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:28:25
One of the biggest issues in Scotland's history and Labour might abstain? Speaks volumes.

Are politicians elected to opt out of the decision making process?
30

haggis 10,

12/05/2008 07:30:29
The Free Citizen Teddy Roosevelt Quote "Any nation that Gives up its Independence deserves all it is given" Unquote
31

Proximaking,

Dundee 12/05/2008 07:33:27
#1 is correct it's the red rosette on a monkey syndrome. All you needed to get on in the Labour party was the backing of a bunch of loonies who long ago probably from as early as the 1960's weren't in it to help the people but to help themselves. We see this all the time, for "protect our public services" read "keep our gravy train running". And these are the very same people who still vote in the back rooms for the likes of Wendy and company. No wonder the Scottish parliamentary crowd all support her, they came from the same corrupt "elite". It is time we lifted some more stones in Scotland to see what is hiding there. Why does Dundee for example need 50% more council employees to do the same job as others elsewhere do? Why does Glasgow council need twice as many council employees as the most efficient "large town with problems" council in the UK? Incompetence and mutual back scratching that's why. At last Labour are being challenged in Scotland, and not a moment too soon but until these apparatchiks start ending up where they belong, in front of a court for maladministration I won't believe a word of what Alex Salmond says either. After all it seems he isn't above a bit of back scratching himself. lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
32

C U Jimmy,

East Ayrshire 12/05/2008 07:39:06
With friends like the Wendy and Brown gang...who needs enemies.
33

Red Tower,

Dunoon 12/05/2008 07:48:17
Wendy is Gordon's divining rod in Scotland. Wendy is telling Gordon that Scots will overwhelmingly reject separation in a referendum called now. Polls seem to suggest she is right. So she pressures Gordon to set up a referendum virtually immediately. Gordon however , in spite of all this, says, no. Now if Wendy calls Salmond scared what should she call, Gordon?
34

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:48:29
On TV at lunchtime on Sunday Wendy told us that her boss Gordon Brown says that she can do anything she likes in Holyrood to discredit the SNP !
He is so magnanimous.
35

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 07:52:31
Oh is she still in the job, that's a surprise. This must have worked.


http://tinyurl.com/5agcwt
36

Phil C,

12/05/2008 07:55:10
I'm a wee bit suspicious of all this, but have to admit that Wendy has risen tenfold in my esteem. Is it a trojan horse for Labour in Scotland? I don't think Daft Gordy is clever enough for that, but something's up. Whatever it is, I don't expect a problem-free ride for the referendum bill!

A two-option referendum is the only clear and democratic way of asking the people whether they want independence or not. The proven undemocratic and unelectable Fibdems and Tories should be taking a good look at themselves now too. The unionists who u-turned en masse with Wendy, who jumped up and down about 'bring it on now' now and the 'fear' of the Nats also need a decent mirror to see the error of their ways!

The SNP's approved manifesto commitment remains the best and only fair option. Bring it On! The SNP still have a hell of a fight to persuade enough 'can't be bothereds' to change from their natural choice of the status quo, but change they must for the sake of their country. The one indisputable loser in all this is Westminster Labour.
37

Stephen101,

Big brain Wendy, or what? 12/05/2008 07:59:10
Remember when Wendy was 'campaigning' to be leader we had loads of guff about what a big brain she had and her work as a 'management consultant'. I didn't believe it at the time, and I definitely do NOT believe it now.

Who was this management consultancy role with, for how long, where, and what clients did she work with?

Come on Wendy, let's see the evidence or was all that just another little porky on the road to greatness?
38

JayJay,

Right here 12/05/2008 08:08:57
Despite all her travails, the sheer brass neck of the woman never disappoints.
In March, when questioned on the issue of a referendum, she claimed to be "not that kind of girl". Last Tuesday, when questioned on whether or not she had the agreement of Gordon Brown to pursue this absurdly opportunistic strategy, she said three times that she absolutely did.
When you find yourself unable to remember the last great big whopper you told, you clearly are is some considerable trouble. To claim that your Damascian conversion is because "you have listened to the people of Scotland" when you come with a reputation for arrogance beyond measure, and an inability to listen to anyone other than the voices in your head, pours scorn on the very people you claim to represent.
Those Labour members who allowed this bombscare to take over, unopposed, because they feared telling Gordon that his annointed one was a liability should feel very proud of their work today. This is what happens when cronyism rules.
I just wonder what she has to do to either resign or be sacked. Mind you, given that she has awarded herself 10 out of 10, she has a long road back to the real world.
39

Stephen101,

And as for Wendy's future? 12/05/2008 08:11:08
Of course this silly conceited pompous wummin is on her bike, but only at a time that makes it look reasonable, Gordon won't just sack her. That smacks too much of a decision.

But please Wendy, cling on for as long as you can. You have stimulated my thirst for political news. Daily I look for her latest activity which results in 'how stupid can anyone be' from me, but she is funny, big time.

Who needs happy pills when Wendy is around?

Taking on big Eck at First Minister's questions is class. Hopefully a DVD set will be produced after she goes. I will be watching it in 20 years time with tears rolling down my cheeks. Last week as she sat there with the 'will the ground open up please' look on her face was top drawer stuff.

Hang on in there Wendy, we are loving it.



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12/05/2008 08:17:18
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Iain green,

12/05/2008 08:18:07
Wendy agreed not to "vote down" the bill.
She didn't agree to support it.
Sounds like abstention territory to me.
Also, her support is not a "blank cheque", so she reserves the right to oppose if she doesn't like the question. Which of course will be precisely what happens.
On the bright side, however, her hectoring and frankly dishonest performance on TV yesterday may have reassured Labour in Scotland that she can ride this one out.
Good news for all the other parties; but not for the union.
Wendy's reputation for intellect appears built on her habit of browbeating critics and ignoring other people's questions.
In this event, she's intelligent only by Scottish Labour standards, not by any normal benchmarks.
42

Bob Christie,

12/05/2008 08:31:36
It has only taken a week for UUWendy to get onside the referendum campaign. Given there are two years before that referendum takes place, and that Broon has thrown her out of the Liebour ganghut, I am confident that Eck will have Wendy voting YES for independence!!!!
43

jj veritas,

12/05/2008 08:51:10
Prescott and Cherie Blair have just admitted in their books that Labour leaders lie to the public through spin. So why should we believe the leader of Labour in Scotland?
44

kimba,

12/05/2008 08:53:57
Scotland and Ms Alexander won't have to wait that long,THERE WILL BE A GENERAL ELECTION LONG BEFORE THEN!
45

Ctinj,

Alloa 12/05/2008 08:54:33
I think the SNP should bring forward the vote, like to next week as I think they are guaranteed to win. Wendy has done more to promote independence that the SNP could ever have done.

Well done Wendy (and just in case she or Labour think I will forget their blumdering incompetency in 2010, I can assure you I won't - your fate is sealed).

I have voted labour right up to the last election that they lost, and they lost that because there is not a member of their party that is capable of tying my bootlaces, let a lone run our great country.
46

Jimmy the Pie,

12/05/2008 08:57:36
I suppose all this means we won't get a look at Humiliated Red Wendy's e-mails then???
47

fresian,

dubai 12/05/2008 09:06:28
Upon a hill there stood a coo,

along came salmond.

Its no there noo!
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James.com,

Clifton 12/05/2008 09:12:39
This is clearly spin.....Gordon doesne have any friends.
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12/05/2008 09:14:15
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dude,

wishaw 12/05/2008 09:16:04
How's this for an annihilation of the Alexanders

I don't know if Wendy Alexander is the biggest problem Labour faces – but ,after the last week, I do know Wendy Alexander is not the answer.”

It is the latest – and almost the final – twist in the sustained, most public self-destruction of a brilliant and fundamentally flawed woman.

Even her enemies admit that Alexander is “probably the brainiest" of Scotland's MSPs, who got a scholarship to Vancouver and holds a degree from INSEAD – a hot-house college for European high fliers.

Born in Glasgow in 1963, she is a daughter of the Church of Scotland manse: her father, Rev. Douglas Alexander, was an old friend of Donald Dewar and conducted his funeral with a chilling, oily self-possession. Her younger brother, Douglas, no less elevated by contracts and patronage, has also attained high office but – as was evident even at that funeral service – someone who knows them well tells me soberly, “These are not nice people.”

Neither Wendy or Douglas served any apprenticeship in public service. But they had Donald Dewar as a mentor and, by signal natural cunning, they were hoisted up the pole while maintaining most gracious relations with both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

Yet both have achieved pitiably little for real people, despite years in office. The Alexanders are not statesmen; not legislators. They are schemers, facilitators, backroom boys in ruthless election machines: consuming political ambition allied to entire moral vacuity.

Both have a stunning inability to take any responsibility for their actions, something which – in a wider constellation of symptoms – is a hallmark of the psychopath.

Though indubitably the man responsible for Scotland's electoral debacle last May – when postal chaos, incomprehensible ballots and technological failures disenfranchised some 140,000 Scots – Douglas Alexander could offer the Commons only blustering self-justification in what should have been a career-ending
51

Alan B,

12/05/2008 09:16:18
While the critism seems to focus on Alexander it seems that brown is the main problem. First of all Alexander is right as about having a referendum (although i do think she should have said so from the start of her leadership). Part of her problem is that she has no charm. Secondly it has exposed brown as a liar. It is obvious he has backed her strategy and then has bottled it leaving her exposed. The sooner labour dump him the better. With all the back stabbing currently going on in with labour in westminster it exposes a moral vacum in this party.
52

dude,

12/05/2008 09:17:09
performance.

Widely blamed for bad counsel in what has proved the defining disaster of the Brown premiership – the general election that wasn't – his star has been waning ever since. Both the Paisley duo – not least because of the circumstances in which they rose without trace – lack any meaningful political base. Loathed by their peers, resented by the grass-roots, they owe all to the favour of great men and their prospects perish with them.

But his big sister is the more flawed of the two, and the more vulnerable. Wendy Alexander is not “Scottish Labour leader”, but merely leader of Labour MSPs at Holyrood, her mandate all the less credible as she was elected unopposed. And, though every bit as arrogant as her brother, her core political instincts are appalling. Besides, at bottom, Wendy Alexander is a quitter.

Off to Glasgow University to study medicine, she switched to a much less demanding course in history. When Henry McLeish fell, Wendy Alexander launched a bid for the Scottish leadership, luring many gifted MSPs and Executive ministers out in her open support – then, two days after the campaign began, simply aborted it, leaving them helplessly exposed to Jack McConnell's meanly executed revenge.

In May 2002, Wendy Alexander – buried in assorted Executive responsibilities, but chiefly Minister for Enterprise – suddenly and mysteriously resigned from government, badly damaging fragile Scots business confidencer in a Labour administration.

She fought the 2007 poll on a platform of strident, uncompromising Unionism – then, assuming the leadership, found she believed after all in the extension of devolved powers. She tabled a Labour motion against the SNP Budget – and then ordered her colleagues not to vote for it.

When she finds herself in times of trouble, Wendy simply disappears. Damaging as the protracted scandal over her dodgy campaign-finance was in itself, her inability for many weeks to face either a microphone or a camera all but doom
53

dude,

12/05/2008 09:18:23
doomed her leadership from the start. In recent days, too, she has popped down burrows like a frightened rabbit.

Wendy Alexander is not easy to work with. Several spin-doctors have in recent months “left abruptly”. Another, a coarse buffoon who should never have been appointed, had to be sacked after vile, tired and emotional remarks about Alex Salmond.

A woeful lack of people-skills, abrasive ways and a fondness herself for crude language – allied to patronising, sometimes heated harangues – quickly became evident even under Donald Dewar. “In Wendy's world”, snapped a colleague, “everybody else is in Primary Five.”

She could treat civil servants abominably. And, after Dewar's death, she behaved with open insubordination. Wendy Alexander flatly refused Henry McLeish's orders to take responsibility for Scottish Water, saying she was “too busy” - throwing, apparently, an astonishing tantrum, and passing over the opportunity to do something both meaningful and vital.

This is a woman so damaged – so out to lunch on the priorities and values of ordinary Labour voters – that she not only decided to prioritise the repeal of Clause 2A – repellent but largely dead-letter legislation that forbade in local government the “promotion of homosexuality as a pretended family life” - but carolled it from the rooftops, announcing the move to cheering gay-libbers at Glasgow University in 1999.

What could have been accomplished discreetly became an all-out civil war in public morals, fuelled by the irresponsible - provoking attitudes and advertising that truly frightened ordinary gay people and shook newly devolved confidence to its core. Clause 2A was abolished, but close Labour colleagues never gave Alexander the same place again.

And there is, besides, overweening vanity. Those daft donations were solicited – and both British electoral law and Holyrood standards were explicitly broken – because Wendy Alexander had to have a “proper campaign”.

She could have to
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12/05/2008 09:19:40
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Alan B,

12/05/2008 09:27:36
#dude

"Even her enemies admit that Alexander is “probably the brainiest" of Scotland's MSPs"

She was sold as labours brainiest rather than scotlands. Thing is when u hear statements like that or "do not suffer fools gladly" it is alway to make up for some other problem, generally that they have difficultly getting on with colleagues.

She was a medical school drop out apparently. Does that not make Sam Galbraith a labour msp brainer as he actually was a qualified doctor. Or all the other lawyer msps who actually completed their degrees.

From the perspective of only seeing her on the tv she has displayed little to show she is a cut above the rest. In a any government position she has held she has not exactly performed well.

Was her smart successful scotland thing a success. Even she slagged it off later on. Although like many who fail slagged of labours implementation for the failure rather than her own strategy.

Also did the letter she sent the Sillars (ex snp) slagging of labour, show any sign of intelligence.
56

Cam3,

12/05/2008 09:31:02
Comedy gold - this is HILARIOUS and sums up the recent LIES and IDIOTIC meanderings by Wendy Alexander and her party:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3904917.ece

Read. Enjoy. Bring some popcorn.
57

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 12/05/2008 09:32:22
To all those numpties who think it's the height of wit to make fun of Wendy Alexander's physical appearance: is Alex Salmond an oil painting? No, but then he's a man isn't he, so appearance doesn't matter? Don't fancy your version of an independent Scotland if you judge people (or should that be just women?) on how they look.
58

Prof,

12/05/2008 09:34:27
Will Bendy Wendy bring in a referendum, - yes no, err.
Does Gordon Brown support her on this - yes, no, err.
Should Bendy Wendy resign over taking an ilegal donation -No, yes, err.

However when asked to mark her perfomance so far - Bendy Wendy modestly replied 10 out of 10.
59

danielrober,

12/05/2008 09:34:44
I was hoping for a sensible vote after the Commonwealth Games allowing a 'proper' assessment of Devolution and the 1000 plus other important details.
60

M & S loyal,

Lochwinnoch 12/05/2008 09:39:52
Wendy has as we say in Scotland "A rare mooth for coolin' soup" but not much use on the political front.
61

Agent 99,

12/05/2008 09:40:22
[45] Iain: Wendy's reputation for intellect

Where did all this originate? As far as I recall the reputation was something talked up by the pro-Labour press. Where is the evidence that this woman has what it takes above the neck?

I'm reminded of the classic urban myth when considering Alexander's intellect (or lack thereof). Everyone claims to know someone who can substantiate it, just like the rat tail in the hamburger. No one however, is willing to admit that they personally have experienced it.
62

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 12/05/2008 09:45:13
That's you #65 (see my comment at 62).
63

Filosofo,

Kirkcaldy 12/05/2008 09:45:46
#7, Jude The Obtuse;
'Matt 19.24 -"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a ricj man to enter the kingdom of heaven" springs to mind'?
Would you care to elucidate?
64

Methalions,

12/05/2008 09:46:34
7
Jude The Obtuse,
12/05/2008 00:15:44
"At last! The BBC has fixed the Real Player stream and I’ve seen the Politics Show."

I have just tried it - nothing.
65

European Scot,

12/05/2008 10:01:39
69 Methalions

Good morning Methalions I've had the same problem over the last couple of days.
Is it a problem of copyright ?
The BBC not being able to release their product to foreign countries because of sales agreements on News material etc.
66

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:02:19
For heaven's sake, Scotsman, get your sub to sort that headline out.
67

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:04:43
Soon to be returnee (25): "I have a question. If Scotland becomes independent, what happens to the national debt? I can only assume that a portion of it must come Scotland's way."

Nobody knows: there's no real precedent, nor is the division clear. I've sometimes discussed this with economists at the Treasury and the BofE, without any clear conclusion arising. One obvious possibility would be division along population numbers, but this also rests on the citizenship decisions once Scotland splits: we English form some 10% of Scotland's population, whilst there may be as many as 750,000 Scots in England. Further, there is also the argument that historic economic contributions should be considered, going back to the formation of the Union and correcting amounts to the modern equivalent -- on this view the Darien debt would be reassigned to Scotland, converted to its current equivalent, say. There is then the immediate question of Scotland's creation of a new central bank and currency. There is also the big question of division of assets, of course. If Scotland claims that UK assets in England belong, in part, to Scotland, then there is the automatic consequence that UK assets in Scotland belong, in part, to England -- this would obviously lead to wrangling where oil is concerned. One easy solution would be an entirely clean break: Scotland begins afresh, with no UK assets (other than those on Scottish territory) and no UK debt.
68

brownlie,

12/05/2008 10:05:27
62 Privateman

Quite right - they even make fun of the elegant and lissom George Foulkes whereas we unionists never call Alex fat or smug.

69

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:05:43
Does anyone have a link for The Politics Show Scotland on iPlayer? It doesn't even show up for me - every other region does, and the Scottish one is usually there okay, but there's nothing this morning.
70

AJ Fife,

12/05/2008 10:06:10
wee wendy must be becoming a good dancer - she's getting plenty of practice, dancing to Mr Salmond's tune!

However, the truth is, wee wendy will be booted oot very soon and the Scottish Labour Party will do a U turn on the U turn!

71

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 10:08:42
#56 I'm with you on this one Alan.

It seems clear to me that Brown must have given at least some sort of tacit support to this and then his bottle crashed. I'm just glad she's decided to stand up to him and not resign like some of the eejit Labour MPs want her to do.
72

Jimmy the Pie,

12/05/2008 10:13:54
Does anyone know the majority that despicable David Cairns is sitting on???
73

Methalions,

12/05/2008 10:16:11
71

The rogue apostrophe looms yet again.
74

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:21:21
Alan B (60): "She was a medical school drop out apparently."

IIRC she changed subject to history, rather than dropping out, and completed her degree. Medics spend long arduous hours working, but it's not clear to me that historians are less intelligent.
75

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/05/2008 10:22:30
It could be worse - they could have put - "It's all you'res".

;)
76

Methalions,

12/05/2008 10:27:16
74

Got it eventually. Go to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/politics_show/regions/scotland/default.stm

Click on "Latest Programme". Before you watch, go to the bottom of the screen and select "Change how I view or hear this". Ensure you select "Real Player" or it won't work.
77

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:30:09
Methalions (78): "The rogue apostrophe looms yet again"

It could be worse: we could be reading "The Scot'sman" . . .
78

A Friend of Alternative Mighty Mario Voltaire,

12/05/2008 10:31:29
#74,

The Politics Show

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/default.stm

> Scotland > Watch

If that doesn't work for you . . .
79

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:34:44
#83 Thanks - for some reason it's only available as a Real stream rather than via iPlayer or Windows Media, which is presumably why it doesn't show up in the iPlayer search.
80

BIG EYE,

Paisley 12/05/2008 10:37:44
Unionists arguments get more and more desperate and easier and easier to refute.

The latest is that if the Scots want Independence they can vote SNP? they did last May and that is why Scotland has an SNP Government.

Ah then goes the cry they are only a minority government (this to be used at all times except when attacking the SNP for not implementing all their policies) and therefore have no right to push through a referendum.

Has nobody told them that Gordon Brown runs aminority government with nothing like 50% support among the UK eletorate.

Ah but he has a majority of seats. Yes he has, the system used allows minorities to end up with absolute power but a minority in real terms he remains.

Niether government should have the power to decide Scotland's future....hence a referendum that allows Scotland's people to determine the future.

It is pointless to oppose this and the Tories and Liberals will be sacrificed, along with the Labour Party at the next election if they continue to do this.

Scotland needs democratic government and the SNP at the moment seems to be the only party that can secure this.
81

morris,

edinburgh 12/05/2008 10:41:24
25

Any fair minded person would recognise that a division along the lines of population ,ould be the only fair way to do this.However there will be lengthy negotiations for sure,with both sides seeking the best deal,and I doubt that Westminster can be trusted to accept a reasonable settlement without a major fight.The real problem is the oil which remains in Scotland's sector of the North Sea(it already exists)which will then become revenue payable to Holyrood only,and since Westminster has collected some hundred plus billion or thereabouts to date from the North Sea,tiny Scotland would gain significantly with this level of injection into her economy (5 million people) whilst it would slightly reduce the economy of the "Other part" (England Wales and Northern Ireland)by the same amount,but this is a much larger economy of course so its effect would be dampened considerably.Nevertheless Scotland is the undisputed winner here.

What is for certain is the position of Westminster will not be a co-operative one! They cannot afford a fair settlement,but international intervention may be inevitable and advantageous to Scotland in certainty according to all the questions asked in the UN and EU despite what Labour would have you believe.The Labour Party has lied consistently to Scotland for the last forty years.The question we have to ask ourselves in the case of each individual is why ?
Is it because they knew the Labour Party was lying?That makes them guilty of being Quislings on a Gravy Train lining their own pockets.
The other possibility is they did not know.That makes them IDIOTS!They claimed they knew what they were talking about!
Which kind of Labour MP do you have? A liar or an idiot? He must be one of the two and probably BOTH!
82

Methalions,

12/05/2008 10:41:42
84

...then download Real Player or Real Alternative.
83

Saul Tyre,

Germany 12/05/2008 10:42:33
If Scotland votes YES in the referendum (and it's looking increasingly likely), Wendy will claim she gave birth to an independent Scotland. Right now she's in Labour.
84

kimba,

12/05/2008 10:44:38
Seems the nats are out in force this mornings,must be afternoon signing at the dole office!
85

Son of Loki,

The Dark Side 12/05/2008 10:48:55
Is there a competition on to take the most awful picture of Wendy Alexander?

It's a close one to call with all that's happened recently but today's pic is priceless. If you turn the picture upside down you get another face!

Stay alive people, it's the only way to live, or so dad says

Loki jnr
86

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 12/05/2008 10:49:43
#89 Excellent point. I have now entirely changed my view on independence, and wish to support the Union.
87

kimba,

12/05/2008 10:50:00
Maybe you should all read the Telegraph;Brown says "He will do whatever it takes to preserve the union"
88

Methalions,

12/05/2008 10:50:40
91

He he he
89

Gill,

Perthshire 12/05/2008 10:52:51
Labour needs Wendy like the title of this story needs the apostrophe in YOURS!

Get a grip - Labour AND Editor! Mindnumbingly mortifying behaviour BOTH.
90

Gill,

Perthshire 12/05/2008 10:53:42
PS - Did Kimba write this headline, perchance?
91

Fairfax,

12/05/2008 10:56:16
morris (85): "They cannot afford a fair settlement,but international intervention may be inevitable"

By "They" and "Westminster", you mean England: please say so. As for England being unable to afford a fair settlement, please remember that we have a trillion pound GDP: our yearly spend on incapacity benefit alone in England has exceeded income from oil in recent years: both are around the 1% level, in relation to English GDP. I suspect that England will simply propose a clean break: essentially all UK assets in Scotland become Scottish, all UK assets elsewhere remain with the "rump UK", whilst Scotland begins afresh with no share of the UK national debt. The alternative would lead to endless wrangling: for example, if Scotland petitions for, say, 10% by value of UK assets in England, then England would petition for 90% of UK assets in Scotland. Still, it's all up for negotiation.

92

kimba,

12/05/2008 10:59:37
GILL. Doen't forget to sign,your dole will be stopped if you don't!
93

Jimmy the Pie,

12/05/2008 11:02:06
92 kimba

"He will do whatever it takes to preserve the union"

Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon will soon only be able to vote no in a referendum (assuming he meets the residential qualifications).

He will be nothing but a bad memory soon.

94

JCA REID,

Annan 12/05/2008 11:03:40
If this referendum is held it will be worded in such a way to split any "FOR Independence", so that the status quo will remain. In 1999, Australia had a referendum to vote on becoming a Republic. The wording of the options resulted in the status quo to remain because the people wou