Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Wednesday, 8th October 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Edinburgh Evening News site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

House sales slump but prices 'will stay steady'



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 11 July 2008
HOUSE prices in the Capital are being predicted to hold steady over the next 12 months despite a massive 35 per cent slump in sales, according to experts.
New sales statistics released by The Edinburgh Solicitors Property Centre (ESPC) show that, despite a year-on-year increase of 2.6 per cent, taking the average selling price to around £233,000, the volume of sales saw a big drop in the second quarter of this year.

The figures have caused experts at the ESPC to revise their growth predictions released just six weeks ago. David Marshall, ESPC business analyst, said he now expects the housing market growth in Edinburgh to shrink to zero per cent by this time next year.

He added: "The risk of a downturn in average house prices in the next 12 months is now greater than this time last year, given the constraints on disposable income coming from rising food and oil prices, coupled with a predicted rise in interest rates and a lack of available credit."

According to the latest figures the average selling price of a property in the Capital rose by 2.6 per cent annually, though this came in the face of a downturn of 36 per cent in the number of sales.

The ESPC said the reduction in demand for property was particularly evident towards the lower end of the market, where restrictions on credit availability hit hardest.

House prices in the Gorgie/Dalry area have seen a fall of 3.7 per cent, while two-bed flats in Stockbridge rose in value by just over six per cent.

Mr Marshall said the figures showed it was "a buyers' market for those who are able to secure credit". He added: "As more properties come on the market, buyers feel less pressure to buy the first decent property they come across and will subsequently have greater confidence to put in a lower bid than before.

"At the moment, we've seen no evidence that sellers are feeling the pressure to accept these lower bids, but as more and more properties come on the market and competition increases, their expectations may begin to fall."

The ESPC has already recorded a drop in premiums – the difference between the "offers over" asking price and the final selling price - from 28 per cent last year to 23 per cent.

With inflation expected to hit four per cent and the cost of living on the rise, sellers may soon be forced to sell their properties at a reduced figure sooner than predicted.

According the ESPC report, the average price of a four-bedroom detatched property in the suburbs rocketed by almost 20 per cent.

Large family homes are traditionally the preserve of second or third-time buyers, who already have a significant amount of equity to put towards new properties.

ESPC chief executive Ron Smithsaid: "From the sellers' perspective, it is likely they will have to moderate their expectations on the price their property will attract. The flipside of this is that they should be able to secure their next property for a lower price than they may have anticipated.

"Although most looking to move would be best advised to sell before they buy in the current market conditions, it is wise to start viewing potential purchases early to get a better idea of how much you will have to bid and be in a position to move quickly when you sell your current home."

www.espc.co.uk


The full article contains 590 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 July 2008 1:30 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Mortgage and property news
 
1

ccc,

11/07/2008 12:08:25
If I remember correctly the predictions from David Marshall for this year have gone from about 4%............to about 2%... to about 0%...

Anyone see a pattern emerging. :)

Come on David. You know house prices are falling in the Capital already. Just get a realistic prediction out there. We all know you really expect a fall this year of about 10% in edinburgh.

You don't want to end up like Savills who have just revised their outlook for the Uk as a whole to be a 25% fall at best....

Ouch.
2

easy money,

11/07/2008 12:21:07
the only people that will get their fingers burned are the BTL panic merchants who are now off loading one bed flats (a lot of them in the Leith / Georgie ghetto's - it was always going to happen as who ever believed these were nice places to live and were worth £115k or more?!!) - for homeowners who stick it out for 2 years this whole thing will blow over - its happened before (70's & 90's)and it will happen again. All the doomsayers out there will have to find something else to get themselves depressed about on a day to day basis. in 10 years time a one bed flat in the Capital will be circa £200k and if you cant afford it then live somewhere else - simple really. I see a great opportunity for landlords once all these overated flats have been sold - back to the good ol days!
3

ccc,

11/07/2008 12:21:52
Sales volumes below for Edinburgh sales. (Numbers in brackets are comparable volumes for same period in previous year)

Q2 2007 3267(3450)- 5.3% down
Q3 2007 3092(3246)- 4.7% down
Q4 2007 2510(2979)- 15.7% down
Q1 2008 1606(1721)- 6.7% down
Q2 2008 2080(3267) - 36.3% down

Average sale price for same period:

£227
£222
£215
£210
£234


Over to you Mr Fernando.

What do these figures tell you about this credit bubble. Looks to me like Edinburgh property has just fallen off the edge of a cliff. All this at the 'busy time' as well.

Imagine what the next 6 months are going to be like..

I don't think the EN understand the basic logic of this situation. If demand plummets, credit remains NORMAL (Because that is all it is at present - it has been ABNORMAL for the last 5 years) then prices CANNOT stay steady. They MUST fall.


:)
4

ccc,

11/07/2008 12:26:13
#2 Easy money. What an appropriate name. :)

You just don't get this do you ? What we are seeing now is a near systematic failure of the banking/credit system. This is not like the 1970's or the 1990's. This is the 1930's.
5

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 12:27:53
I've had a look at the report in this week's ESPC paper. For the last ten years or so they've been publishing a detailed report every three months which tells you the number of various types of house sold in various areas, together with their average price. What did we get this time? Nothing but a statement that (and I quote) "In Edinburgh, for example, the average price of a 1-bedroom flat rose by just 1% to £142,066 in the second quarter of 2008, whilst the average price of a 3 or 4-bedroom house rose by 3% to £316,935." That's it.

Things can't be going too well if they're not willing to tell us the details of what's going on.
6

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 12:31:10
The key statement here is:
"With inflation expected to hit four per cent and the cost of living on the rise, sellers may soon be forced to sell their properties at a reduced figure sooner than predicted."

All the rest is said more in hope than in expectation. Edinburgh is no more special than anywhere else. Now that the banks are restraining lending to sensible multiples just who exactly is going to be able to pay so much for such over priced property as we have here.
7

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 12:34:43
#5
So it appears to be a fact that a one bedroom flat here costs an average of £142,000, to be able to afford that one would need a salary of something in the region of £40,000!? (at sensible 3.5x salary multiples) I cannot believe there are still people who do not think that is overpriced and it is inevitable that prices will fall?! Idiots
8

Victoria Ian,

11/07/2008 12:35:10
Prices may drop slightly but if you don't move it makes no difference.

In 5 yrs time, they'll be a good bit higher than now. Anyone who panic sells is incredibly stupid imo.
9

easy money,

11/07/2008 12:35:56
ccc - yes, well done, there are afew more variables in the pot but all in all things remain the same - this storm will pass and Edinburgh will weather the storm...believe me, 10 years from now a one bed flat in the capital will be £200k. For those who cant afford it then tough - move somewhere else until you've saved up enough.
10

Playground Monitor,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 12:37:30
"HOUSE prices in the Capital are being predicted to hold steady over the next 12 months despite a massive 35 per cent slump in sales, according to experts."

For expert read house salesman. House salesman says prices will stay firm. Remind me, what do bears do in the woods again?

Edinburgh is merely staying in 'credit bubble la-la land' slightly longer than the rest of the UK, it's not immune just a bit behind the drag curve. Plummeting prices here we come. It'll probably take a few more lay-off among the financial whizz-kids to kick things off, that's all.
11

easy money,

11/07/2008 12:40:19
the only people that will get their fingers burned are the BTL panic merchants who are now off loading one bed flats (a lot of them in the Leith / Georgie ghetto's - it was always going to happen as who ever believed these were nice places to live and were worth £115k or more?!!) - for homeowners who stick it out for 2 years this whole thing will blow over - its happened before (70's & 90's)and it will happen again. All the doomsayers out there will have to find something else to get themselves depressed about on a day to day basis. in 10 years time a one bed flat in the Capital will be circa £200k and if you cant afford it then live somewhere else - simple really. I see a great opportunity for landlords once all these overated flats have been sold - back to the good ol days!
12

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 12:43:40
Let me get this right, easy money. Are you suggesting that in 10 years time a one bed flat in the Capital will be circa £200k?
13

easy money,

11/07/2008 12:44:50
#12 - yes
14

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 12:46:35
11#
Come on admit it, you are Gordon Brown aren't you?!

How long has he been telling us that we are in a "low inflation" economy, repeating the same thing over and over in the hope that if said enough it will become fact, whilst at the same time talking out of his bottom (as the recent inflation figures are proving).

The only way a one bedroom flat in Edinburgh will be worth £200,000 will be if salaries go up proportionately, this just is not going to happen as in our exciting global economy there will be always someone cheaper (and probably better) to employ in another country.
15

Victoria Ian,

11/07/2008 12:48:39
Easy Money- I entirely agree. In fact I would say in 10 years 1 bed flats will probably average over 200k.

10 yrs is a long time in the propert market guys- get real!

16

espc,

11/07/2008 12:49:28
#5.

The regular report you make reference to is available on this page of espc.com

http://www.espc.com/EspcPageMedia/PropertyPriceReports/2008-Q2.pdf
17

Victoria Ian,

11/07/2008 12:50:41
#14 Liz- just read your comment. I will take a dairy note to re-visit this site in 2018 and I bet you the people who have rode the storm will be reaping the benefits!
18

easy money,

11/07/2008 12:50:46
Liz - sounds like you were born at the shallow end of the gene pool - thats a pity as you're unlikely to move up the salary scale - as always over time salaries increase and Edinburgh will continue to move ahead...also, plenty of people from down South moving up here and they have no shortage of funds - quality of life comes at a price my dear and there are plenty peolpe who are willing to pay for it...
19

Victoria Ian,

11/07/2008 12:51:55
sorry "have ridden the storm" or "who rode the storm"
20

easy money,

11/07/2008 12:53:09
victoria Ian - nice one...if you're in this for the long haul in Edinburgh you simply cannot lose...£££££!!!!! yeeeaaahhhhhh......
21

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

11/07/2008 12:56:00
Frankly there are better places to get advice on this sort of thing than some jumped up estate agent bloke at the ESPC.

22

Victoria Ian,

11/07/2008 12:56:19
#20 lol. Wouldnt go quite that far mate but see you in Monaco in 2018!
23

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 12:58:05
#18
Thank you for your kind comments. You have no idea about my salary or house owning status but you still feel for some reason you are so much more clever.

My only suggestion to you is to open your eyes and make sure you are prepared for the future. Edinburgh is no more special than anywhere else and your rapid decent into personal insults says more about your position in the gene pool than anyone elses.
24

easy money,

11/07/2008 13:00:05
next week ah'll be sitting off the end off my yacht down in Porto do Galinhas, Brazil....might take a punt on some land down there as its dirt cheap....again in 10 years i stand to make a killing....all the other characters on this forum will be clogging up our hospital wards as their negative outlook on life will have almost killed them off...
25

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

11/07/2008 13:00:09
18 I have to agree. If you said 15 years ago that a 25K gorgie flat would be worth 150k people wouldve laughed at you.

OF COURSE it's going to be "worth" 200K in ten years time ! At the very least !

Stop whinging Liz and go live your life.
26

ricky1975,

fife 11/07/2008 13:01:28
I like all these predictions about how a 1 bed flat in Edinburgh will cost 200k in ten years. How do any of you know? Have you a crystal ball? You're just plucking figures out the air so you can keep deluding yourself that the property market isn't very, very tanking badly. Face it nobody can predict prices in 10 years. The only certainty is that property prices in Edinburgh and the rest of the UK are going be hit for a long time and very hard so best fasten your seatbelts it's going be a bumpy ride.
27

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

11/07/2008 13:02:13
I'm off to Zurich next week , then Oregon San fransisco and Las Vegas 10 days after that for a month . This credit crunch thing is a nightmare , n'est pas ?
28

easy money,

11/07/2008 13:03:20
Liz - i thought you lived in the caravan park with ccc down at Silverknowes but if you actually own a house then i might just cut you a little slack...
29

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

11/07/2008 13:04:05
26 In all likelihood ricky , it will be at least that much. We have enough data to predict , altough I admit anything can happen between now and then.

PLAN FOR THE WORST AND HOPE FOR THE BEST. EG, definitely dont even think that you will pick one up for a song in 2018. If you got it wrong - buy two.
30

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 13:06:14
#16. Thanks for that. I wasn't able to find the report in the printed version, but I'm glad to see that it's available on teh website.
31

easy money,

11/07/2008 13:09:00
a one bed flat in Cramond just sold 2 months ago for £218k - its tiny and okay it has partial sea views....so, in all likelihood its not unreasonable to suggest that in 10 years a decent one bed flat will be £200k...
32

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 13:09:10
A one bed flat may indeed be worth £200,000 in ten years time (certainly that's what easy money's told us three times so far today), but in that case the question is how much will £200,000 be worth in ten years time.
33

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 13:10:02
Sorry, make that four times.
34

ccc,

11/07/2008 13:11:42
Liz.

You are trying but these people don't WANT to listen. That is the important word - WANT.

They talk about flats being 200k in 10 years. That is entirely possible. They clearly don't understand the concept of REAL house prices and value though. 200k may only buy you a loaf of bread in 10 years. Who knows....

A house in this country (At the moment) has to rise by about 5% per year simply to RETAIN it's value. Nothing else. Most people cannot understand this simple concept.

What I do find interesting is the change in attitude from many of these 'bullish' posters. It has changed to an almost 'We are better than you' attitude. Not very becoming and a clear sign they are getting really frightened. I imagine they have 'investment properties' in Edinburgh just now that they are more than a little worried about.

:)
35

11+failed,

the pans 11/07/2008 13:17:40
Even second quarter 2008 sales would be concluded with mortgages largely agreed before the mortgage famine. Mortgages continue to be more difficult and expensive to obtain. Third quarter sales, traditionally below the peak second quarter, will also reflect the underlying mortgage difficulties.
36

easy money,

11/07/2008 13:23:20
liz - funny how you're now coming round to the idea of a 1 bed flat being worth £200k in 10 years - didnt take long did it!! - sounds like you're a bit easily led (shallow end of the gene pool and all that) They will do and for those silly enough to buy them at that price in 10 years - shame on you!!
37

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 13:23:24
Easy Money reckons:

"for homeowners who stick it out for 2 years this whole thing will blow over - its happened before (70's & 90's)and it will happen again"

This isn't the 18-year UK housing cycle we saw peak in the 70's and late 80's. This is a three-generational credit cycle. This is now obvious because falls are due to lack of credit rather than high uneloyment and interest rates. It is extremely unlikely the cycle will complete within two years.
38

Foo,

11/07/2008 13:30:43
ccc - Can always count on you when it comes to this topic to be bellowing harder than anyone else about how you think you're right and everyone is wrong and why they should all just pi55 of and die.

Unless you have a crystal ball and the ear of the chancellor/governor of BOE and Gordon Brown, you can't say anything for certain.

You are as clueless as everyone else. I've heard all the rambling inane comments about how you 'analyse' the housing market *snigger*; analysts are always coy about making assertions, whereas you are not, which makes me think you don't have a clue.

I believe house prices will adjust, then continue to rise. Tis the way of things.
39

Foo,

ejinbara 11/07/2008 13:31:29
#37 what do you base that assertion on?
40

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 13:32:09
I agree with Easy Money - a 1 bed flat in Edinburgh may well cost £200,000 in 10 years time. However, whereas £200K will but you @ 420oz of gold today, it will buy < 42oz in ten years time. Your imports from China will also be 10 times more expensive.

Only one thing happens to easy money built on a credit bubble: It becomes toilet paper.

41

SS,

reason-land 11/07/2008 13:33:52
The world is de-leveraging; banks are focusing on their balance sheets; ridiculous salary multiple mortgages have gone thankfully; banks are demanding large deposits (clearest indicator yet as to where they think prices are going); inflation is rising; builders and developers are laying lots of people off - this will gradually ripple through into trades that service the builders / developers, so unemployment may take a nasty kick up; high street retailers are also likely to start lay-offs soon as consumers spend less due to high the price of necessities such as food, gas & petrol; this might lead to more distressed sellers in the housing market forcing prices down further. people re-mortgaging from previously cheap fixed rates may be refused another or offered another that they cannot afford - more distressed sellers.

Bottom line; banks want a hefty deposit these days and will lend less - this situation is here for a while. Supply will rise whil demand is non existant. Prices can only fall.
42

Liz,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 13:34:48
#36
Now I really do not get where you are coming from, where have you got it from that I am "coming round to the idea"?

Your next point is pouring scorn on anyone who in 10 years time buying a flat for £200,000 seems strange too. If you are correct and these flats are "worth" £200,000 in 2018 then why pour scourn on these people? They will be paying the "true value" of the property. I would be more cautious about buying a £120,000 flat in Gorgie just now (if anyone would lend you the money to do so without a hefty deposit) as it is likely you could end up in negative equity fairly soon if you do (and yes that does matter even if you are not moving, as if you ever come to remortgage you may find a gap between the money owed and the price of the property the loan is secured against.)
43

Oh for the banter,

bra 11/07/2008 13:38:08
CCC get back to your forum will ya
44

ccc,

11/07/2008 13:39:21
#38.

"think you're right and everyone is wrong and why they should all just pi55 of and die"

Don't think I have ever alluded to that....

"the ear of the chancellor/governor of BOE and Gordon Brown, you can't say anything for certain."

I can say there is little in this situation those mentioned above can do about it. I can also say that the biggest credit bubble in living history is going to end in the biggest bust in living history. That is nothing to do with 'knowing it all'. That is everything to do with common sense.

"analysts are always coy about making assertions, whereas you are not, which makes me think you don't have a clue."

So because I am confident enough in my knowledge of this situation to make a prediction.......that means I am clueless.

Fine. We will see.

House prices in Edinburgh HAVE to fall by between 30-50% in real terms.I am 99.9% certain it will happen.

The only questions are:

(1)How it will happen and
(2)How long will it take.




45

I love to eat Sellotape,

11/07/2008 13:42:00
Rather unfortunate that the woman in the photo has had her left arm superglued to the wall. Cruel.
46

Foo,

ejinbara 11/07/2008 13:47:05
"I can also say that the biggest credit bubble in living history is going to end in the biggest bust in living history."

And you know this how...?
47

Foo,

ejinbara 11/07/2008 13:47:38
"So because I am confident enough in my knowledge of this situation to make a prediction.......that means I am clueless."

Yes
48

Foo,

11/07/2008 13:49:05
"House prices in Edinburgh HAVE to fall by between 30-50% in real terms"

?????????

Nonsense.
49

Arrow,

edinburgh 11/07/2008 13:49:26
a property is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. i purchased a 2 bedroom house out of town in the early '70s for £5600 and was worried sick aboput how i would pay off a mortgage of £4500, which was all the bank would allow me to borrow, having had to find the deposit. the problem now is that the banks, being greedy were lending to anyone without any real thought of them being able to repay the debt. they were depending on the purchaser to be able to trade up in a few years, pay off that 1st mortgage and take out a larger one. put a stick in that spoke and the whole thing goes t*ts up. i am fortunate that i have paid off my mortgage and have no intention of moving. so the hose prices have no real concern for me (my kids might cos if i peg out they might not get as much as they thought they might. but that is tough sh*t on them!!
my one serious concern is that the Council tax will keep going up to help pay for the indexed linked pensions of the Councillor and the employees. either that or the services will suffer.
50

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 13:50:31
I note that the bulls are resorting to the insults fairly easily nowadays, CCC. Is there any surer sign that we have moved from the Denial to the Fear stage of the crash?

Capitulation is but a few redundancies / months / low LTV remortgage refusals away!

By end 2010 (real terms):

1 bed Flats in Gorgie? £50-£60K
'Exec Flat' (stack-a-chav)flats in Granton, Pilton (call it Nether Fettes if you like) and Leith Docks: From £250K down to £75K.
Q Mile (Old RIE) - From £500K down to £120K at auction.
51

Foo,

ejinbara 11/07/2008 13:52:50
#50 - Glad to hear you work in a playground because your fictional story making ability is exceptional. The kids must love you!
52

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 13:54:35
Foo

"I can also say that the biggest credit bubble in living history is going to end in the biggest bust in living history."

And you know this how...?

If you open your eyes and look beyond the city bypass you'll see it happening all around you.
53

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 13:58:57
More experts just like those in the Evening News:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_SfxDExxUukY/R-he5fB56aI/AAAAAAAAASk/JiIYUiK914o/s1600-h/nar_rid6.JPG
54

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

11/07/2008 13:59:31
This is my prediction :-

Flats in Gorgie :- 49p buy one get two free
"Big Hoose" at Baberton :- 39.99 with a happy meal.

Guys if we could predict the future , house prices , the stock market etc then life would be a doddle.
55

The Genuine Mario Antoinette,

11/07/2008 14:00:58
The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

It just IS isnt it ? Ignore what you WANT and actually use your brain sometimes. That much is quite easy when you know how.
56

Foo,

ejinbara 11/07/2008 14:04:13
#52 I'm sure there shall be a re-adjustment of sorts, however this doom merchant is spelling the end of the world.

57

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 14:04:17
Liz thinks Edinburgh isn't special.

Edinburgh is Britain's second financial centre. It may be special after all:

http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/BearsLairHome
58

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 14:05:25
There is no particular skill in predicting a self-evident credit bubble that has been inflating since 2001. Most remotely intelligent folk could see it would burst but didn't know exactly when (it should have popped in 2005).

Likewise, seeing the consequences of a burst credit bubble does not require the skills of Mystic Meg: Pick up any economics textbook and see what happened last time, and the time before, and the time before that. Tulips anyone?
59

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 14:09:00
Easy Money hasn't done his homework:

"sounds like you were born at the shallow end of the gene pool - thats a pity as you're unlikely to move up the salary scale - as always over time salaries increase"

Japan's equivalent crisis began in 1989 and is still running. It has been in deflation for much of the intervening period and average salaries have in fact fallen.

The real experts are starting to comment on how the US and UK have blundered into the "Japanese scenario".
60

,

11/07/2008 14:09:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 14:13:55
#39: 25 years of studying credit bubbles. I never really intended to be one, but somehow I've ended up an expert on 'em. It's really quite fascinating to have the opportunity to see one up close.
62

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 14:19:51
#48: Nonsense indeed. Average primary asset price fall after a large credit bubble is two-thirds. The BIS reckons the UK bubble is the largest in world history, so it'd be a miracle to see below-average falls, never mind lower than 50% in real terms. I reckon we're looking at 70% to 90% falls, just as in Japan.
63

Plodjfriss, Hammer of the Numpties,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 14:20:46
Thanks for the link at #53 FoFP; it actually made me laugh out loud.
64

sick of edinburgh,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 14:21:48
Arrow, what a wise sage you are. We had to find 20% of our first mortgage back in the sensible days and rightly so. It meant we were showing commitment to buying and paying for a home sensibly and within our budget. As to prices dropping between 30 and 50%, absolute rubbish. No one who has toiled to pay for and maintain a house is going to give it away. They will just sit tight until the people waiting for a price crash realise its not happening and start buying again.
65

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 14:23:28
#56: prices have fallen by 90% in parts of Tokyo. Far from it being the end of the world, unemployment hasn't even reached 6%

Just because the British are obsessed with housing, it doesn't mean that the sky will fall if house prices slide a little.
66

Foo,

ejinbara 11/07/2008 14:28:54
#62

I don't think so.

Have we had a situation, as in Japan, where money was given away at 0.00% as persoanl loans, as in Japan? Which then sky rocketed?

Also the Japanese market is completely different, people there do not buy and sell as we do. The market has always and will always be slower than ours.
67

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 14:33:55
#64

"They will just sit tight until the people waiting for a price crash realise its not happening and start buying again."

They will if they can keep up the repayments. Obviously, if they have already paid off the mortgage and don't have to move, they're fine.

Median Edinburgh Salary: £23K
Median ESPC House Price: £238K

Historical affordable earnings multiple: 3.5 x
Current earnings multiple: 10 x

It doesn't take a mathematical genius to see that many have been telling porkies about their earnings. It doesn't take much of a shift in interest rates for them to come crashing down. Some can't even afford the shift from an 'intro rate' of 5% to SVR of 7 - 7.5%. That's why there's twice as many folk trying to flog their houses at the moment than last year and it'll only get worse.
68

sick of edinburgh,

Edinburgh 11/07/2008 14:44:14
#67
Are you are saying most homeowners are chancers who have lied about their incomes?

If things are tight, people cut back and take out mortgages they can afford.

The market is awash with property at the moment because doom mongering carpet baggers are trying to scare everyone in the hope of a giveaway from sellers.
69

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 14:44:36
Hmmm, we could be looking at a complete collapse of the credit bubble. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shares (already down over 80% since the bubble broke) have almost halved at the US market open.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=FRE
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=FNM

For those who don't follow credit bubbles quite as closely as I do:

Freddie and Fannie own or guarantee half of all US mortgages, that is over 5,000,000,000,000 Dollars worth of them. They promise to pay all capital and interest payments missed by the borrowers. They have perhaps 80 billion of assets with which to do that and so are levered at around 60 to 1. It doesn't take a lot of failed mortgages to put them out of the game.
Basically they'll need a lot more money (estimates were this week 75 billion). Their shares were worth about 15 billion yesterday, clearly less today. getting the loot won't be easy.

The half of the mortgage market not covered by them was subprime. That half is now pretty much closed. Fannie and Freddie cover 90% of what's left. If they go under, 95% of mortgage markets will have closed.
It will destroy world credit markets and mortgages here will likely become almost impossible to obtain.

Think of this as Northern Rock times a million.

The only remaining question will be: how much are houses worth if they trade for only cash?
70

LVT,

11/07/2008 14:45:53
Can I just point out that 0% house price growth is a real terms fall of around 4% at the moment. Not many new landlords going to invest for that, are they? Not when they get 6 or 7% on deposit. So, their rent has to be bigger than the interest payments on their BTL mortgage. If it isn't then they have to sell, or continue to lose money.

Only first time buyers can boost this property market, and they all need at least a 10% deposit now, not to mention a masive salary just to buy a rubbish flat in Gorgie. Probably the same flat in Gorgie they are now renting for considerably less than the mortgage.

Edinburgh will tank just like everywhere else.
71

easy money,

11/07/2008 15:13:08
a tiny one bed flat in Cramond just sold for £218k - yes £218k - 8 weeks ago...

So, can someone tell me where the property crash is in this town????

Guys, you can talk it down as much as you want but with facts like the above i doubt this town will do little more than flatline for a couple of years...therafter we're heading towards £200k for a one bed in 2018.....get saving boys & girls as Edinburgh aint gonna be cheap all of a sudden....
72

easy money,

11/07/2008 15:21:35
Fernando Poo....if Edinburgh is in such bad shape then....

Can you explain to me why a tiny one bed flat in Cramond sold for £218k 8 weeks ago?

it completely blows all your (so called) fact and figures out the water....
73

ccc,

11/07/2008 15:22:55
#68

"If things are tight, people cut back and take out mortgages they can afford"

I never thought of that. So where is this place where people can pick and choose what they pay for thier mortgage?

I think I will dive into this property boom afterall !! I think I will go for a £12 per week mortgage. Actually may as well just make it £10 per week. Save myself a few pounds for a beer...

Please people for your own good wake up to what is going on.
74

I love to eat Sellotape,

11/07/2008 15:25:29
How do we do that?
75

ccc,

11/07/2008 15:25:38
#71 You are hilarious !!

"a tiny one bed flat in Cramond just sold for £218k - yes £218k - 8 weeks ago...

So, can someone tell me where the property crash is in this town????"

For every one of them there are 10 sitting doing sweet F all. You really need to calm down, sit back and do a bit of research. For your own good.
76

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 15:35:10
#68

I don't give two hoots if they've lied or not, it's not me that will find them out it's the interest rates.

I heard one woman on the bus bemoaning the fact that her mortgage had gone up from just under £500 per month to just under £700 and how she couldn't cope. If you've not lied about your income then you should be able absorb IR increases to @ 10% with pain, but without going bust.

If you have lied and rates rise, you're screwed. That's why sensible lenders set the multiple at 3.5.

But hey, rates will always be low and there'll always be another lender ready and waiting to give you an intro rate of 3.9% at 95% LTV won't there?
77

sick of edinburgh,

11/07/2008 15:36:41
CCC.
So sorry to be misunderstood. I meant that if the cost of living is very high, as it is at present, then people cut back on spending. Same with buying a house, people will buy what they can afford to pay back a mortgage on... or are you being facetious ?
78

,

11/07/2008 15:42:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
79

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 15:45:10
# 77

The trouble is people have bought what they now can't afford. Now they can't sell it as hardly anyone else is daft enough to buy knowing they will get it a LOT cheaper in 2 years time.

Houses are a very illiquid liability at the moment.
80

,

11/07/2008 15:49:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

,

11/07/2008 15:53:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

sick of edinburgh,

11/07/2008 15:57:41
#79

There may well be a number of people in this situation and they have been caught out but not everyone. People who have bought a house as a home and not a get rich quick scheme will sit this out and they are not going to give their homes away at knock down prices. People will always have to move and this panic will pass.
83

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 16:09:33
#82

The sitters out will be fine but the market value is set by the buyers from sellers (panic, distressed or otherwise). The market value is a function of what the last similar property sold for in the same area.

There is a lot of deleveraging still to happen and prices are only so high because of cheap, plentiful and irresponsible credit. Take that away and only one thing can happen and it'll be many years before prices crawl back up to their peak levels (if ever).
84

ccc,

11/07/2008 16:14:03
#77.

Apologies I see what you are saying. However I think many people are overstretched themselves so much they simply wont be able to pay for stuff no matter how much they cut back. They may also lose their jobs.

Just look at what happened to house prices during the good times ? Rocketed up as people thought it would last forever and easy cheap money would always be available.

Ask yourself just what is going to happen during the bad times ? Exactly the opposite. People simply wont be able to pay exorbitant prices for a simple home. Hence their price/value will fall accordingly.

Not a bad thing in the long term. Will be painful for some but that is always the case.

If people have not overstretched themselves they should be fine.
85

easy money,

11/07/2008 16:46:26
ccc. the good flats / houses in decent locations will always do well (ie. the £218k flat in Cramond) and the ghettos like Leith and Georgie will fall....
86

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 16:52:07
72: that would be because we're at the price peak in Edinburgh. I reckon we're about 6 months behind England and they're about 2.5 years behind the US.

Technically Scotland is seeing "divergence" where prices are steady to up but volumes are way down. This is a classic marker of a market top.
87

antifa,

11/07/2008 16:58:59
Fernando - you're a learned man, and are speaking sense, but tell me one thing. At a time when rents in Edinburgh have risen 20% in 12 months, and are likely to rise further as more young people move into the city but choose not to buy, will this not ensure that house prices remain reasonably high?

I mean, I could put my flat on the market now and the rents would more than cover the mortgage. Alternatively, I could change the mortgage to interest only, invest the difference in shares and expect (on long term trends) to make 15% a year, which would enable me to pay the principal off when the debt matures and pocket a tidy profit.

In this context, why should I sell for a knock-down price, and why should anyone?
88

Playground Monitor,

11/07/2008 18:00:26
"rents in Edinburgh have risen 20% in 12 months,"

My old flat dropped 10% to get tenants after weeks on the market. I'd love to see some landlord's comment on 20% increases - the city is awash with property to let!
89

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

11/07/2008 18:30:43
#87 antifa: I've been renting for years and my rent hasn't risen for the last five. That's also the experience of the many renters I meet. If anything, it's easier to find a flat at a lower rent than before.

I have the cash to buy a house. Instead I rent one. There's money left over from the interest on the cash after I pay the rent. If I tried to buy where I'm living, I'd need at least half again as much cash.

If you really can pay a mortgage (and insurance, repairs and amortised transaction costs?) out of collected rent, then ensure your tenants never read anything by me.

The credit crunch has and will continue to drive bear stockmarkets. The correct play in a debt-deflation is to liquidate assets, pay off debt, and hold cash and gold, but I'm not an IFA and so I'm not allowed to advise you.

You ask why should anyone sell, and it is a key question.

The financial intermediaries and builders are laying off staff. Right now folks are switching frm home equity extraction to credit cards to fund living beyond their means. It can't last. retailers have massively overbuilt in response to the credit bubble. When people run out of credit, or start to feel the fear, that will reverse. Retail is very labour-intensive and lots of people will lose jobs.

They'll join others unable to pay their mortgages, or who can't remortgage when they need to. They'll be forced sellers. It's the marginal seller, and not the guy sitting tight, who sets the price for the street. Prices will ratchet down and cause new banking problems and further restriction of credit. Price falls will also increase the size of required deposits for mortgages as the banks seek protection for themselves. In the end credit will neither be offered nor sought.

There's plenty concerning how debt-deflations work on the web. Better still, read Kindleberger, Shiller or Skeane. These cycles have structure and the folks who understand this will be far better prepared for what's coming.
90

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

11/07/2008 20:01:05
the truth is nowhere near as bad as it people forecast
91

Vaccav,

Sydney and Edinburgh 12/07/2008 04:06:09
I'm a bit late into this debate but my tuppenceworth is:

Here in Sydney, we've had 4 years of 'falling' house prices. The market was very definitely a 2 tier market. In areas with lots of new-builds and poor infrastructure, poor transport, a long way from the city ............. there the prices have fallen 30%+ in 4 years. On the other hand, in areas with 'traditional' housing, with good transport or which are close to the city prices have remained flat or have actually gone up. The 'average' price for all houses has gone down about 10% over 4 years.

It would seem possible that the same will happen in Edinburgh - all the new builds down at leith will be in trouble and will be down a lot. But flats in central edinburgh (new town, old town, tollcross, newington, bruntsfield, marchmont, haymarket, etc) could well stay flat for the next few years.

vaccav
92

Vaccav,

Wollstonecraft 12/07/2008 04:18:12
The other thought i had was along the same lines as Anita. I invest in buy to let property and over about 15 years I've built up a portfolio. I may buy more becuase of the following logic:

If property prices go down and rents go up then my yields will improve. I have been getting yields of 5% to 6%. But if that goes to (say) 7% - 8% then I will make a profit each month. I think there's lots of other substantial buy to let guys out there like me who will do the same. Those of us who've been doing this for a while have income and equity that make us a good customer for the banks.

I think that investors like me will put a 'floor' under the market. If the gorgie flat falls from 120k to 90k - i will be buying as the yield will be 8%+. It's hard to see that it can fall to 50k if people like me will buy.

Of course, I do feel for the FTB's who haven't been able to buy or have only just bought, or who are now too scared to buy. I was lucky when i started 15 years ago and my comments here are not intended to offend. The best advice to those guys is knuckle down and watch the pennies. We've all been there and done that.



93

ccc,

12/07/2008 06:29:00
#91.

Yields - Do you include interest that would be paid to you if you put your deposit in a bank account ? Most 'investors' do not. That is because most do not have a clue.

Gorgie - For someone to buy a flat in Gorgie and get any sort of + yield the price would need to be about 60k. If you bought at 90k for an 'investment' you would make Zilch. In fact it would cost you.

Your mortgage alone will cost you about £550. Never mind all the other costs. Your rent will be £525 if you are lucky.

Rents will not rise by any great amount. They simply cannot. I can't be bothered explaining.
94

Vaccav,

Wollstonecraft 12/07/2008 08:58:17
Hi ccc,

The normal way the industry measures yields is gross rental divided by market value. So - no - interest forgone (ie opportunity cost) is not included in yield.

I acheived a yield of 6.1% on a Dalry property purchased 18 months ago. That would not provide a positive cash flow at the moment as most fixed rate mortgages are about 7%. But, if you do the maths then a 25% drop in the value (eg from 120k to 90k) will result in the yield increasing to 8%. With