Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Wednesday, 9th December 2009

Brothers put in a geed wyord to save an ancient Scottish dialect from extinction

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date:
21 February 2007
Two brothers in eighties may be last speakers of unique dialect Distinct Cromarty dialect has died out with the fishing industry Academic plans to record 'most threatened dialect in Scotland'
Key quote
"I think other people understand it, but they don't use it. You don't hear the expressions we used to use at all now, but I think that's true for everywhere. - BOBBY HOGG

Story in full WHEN Bobby and Gordon Hogg meet up for a chat, they enter a linguistic world that few, if any, can now understand.

The brothers, both in their eighties, may be the last known speakers of a dialect peculiar to the Black Isle town of Cromarty.

Robert Millar, a lecturer in linguistics at Aberdeen University and author of Northern and Insular Scots, has described the dialect as the most threatened in Scotland.

With Bobby, 87, and Gordon, 80, perhaps the last practitioners, efforts are being made to record their distinctive twang as part of the Highland Year of Culture.

The small communities throughout the Black Isle once had five separate dialects, with the fishing people of Cromarty, Avoch and Fortrose each having their own distinct speech.

The brothers' fishing dialect is even different from that spoken in the main part of Cromarty, which is derived from Scots.

Bobby said: "It's been dying for some time and it will just die a natural death. I was brought up in the fishing industry, which has died out, and the dialect has gone as the place changes.

"It was not used by the people very much, although my brother and I speak it all the time. Others gave it up because they maybe thought it was not the right way to speak.

"I think other people understand it, but they don't use it. You don't hear the expressions we used to use at all now, but I think that's true for everywhere.

"You can hear the odd smattering of it in some of the things people from Cromarty say, but nobody really speaks it."

The fishing language still uses formal expressions such as "thee", "thou" and "thine", and words beginning with "wh" can often lose the "h" or even "wh". The phrase "what do you want?" is heard as "at thee seekin?"

Bobby's wife, Helen, said: "My husband is fluent in the Cromarty fisher dialect. I understand it, but his brother is the only other person who can speak it."

Jamie Gaukroger, the content coordinator at Am Baile, the online Highland culture archive, said he hoped to record the brothers in the next few days to help preserve the dialect.

"I was not aware until last week that there was this distinctive Cromarty dialect. It's new to me, but it's very exciting all the same," he said.

"It's important that we get it recorded while we still can. If we manage to get it on tape before it disappears, it will be a real coup."

David Alston, a Cromarty-based historian and local councillor, said: "There were two distinct dialects in Cromarty, the town dialect and the fisher dialect.

"But the fisher dialect has now almost completely gone - Bobby and his brother and perhaps only a couple of others are the only ones left."

Mr Alston said language was dynamic, with new dialects emerging all the time. "There is a natural process of dialects dying and coming to be, but it is important we record them before they disappear," he said.

SOUNDS UNIQUE


ACCORDING to the Scottish National Dictionary, the Cromarty dialect has some distinctive sounds.

When a "g", or "k" precedes a vowel, the "oo" sound can be replaced by "ee". So, for instance, good, school and cool become geed, skeel and keel.

When the vowel comes before an "r", as in ford, moor and poor, the word can be changed to fyoord, myoor and pyoor.

The "wh" sound at the start of words is often replaced by a "wu" - so which and whiskers become wutch and wuskers.

In words where "kn" is pronounced "n", this can change to "kr" - knee, knife and knit are heard as kree, krife and krit.

An "h" is often inserted or omitted from the beginning of words. So ale-house, Annie, hand and house become hile-us, Hannie, an and oos.

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 February 2007 12:12 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scots language
 
1

Jock MacSprog,

21/02/2007 02:03:42

scots is obviously just bastardised english, lets get over it.

2

www.scottwebb.co.uk,

21/02/2007 02:04:30

Two brothers in eighties........well done lads...you could teach us youngsters a thing or two :)

3

somerferg,

OZ 21/02/2007 02:15:16

Lang may their lums reek !

4

Scullion,

Canada 21/02/2007 02:21:30

The phonetics seem impenetrable-I wonder what the grammatical verb structure would be like?
Still, even though it may be only of interest to cultural anthropologists, it is an element of our Scottish heritage that must be preserved.

5

Bret,

New York 21/02/2007 02:49:45

I seriously wonder if the Doric is going down the same slippery slope?
Translated: gan doon eh wye".

6

,

21/02/2007 02:53:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 386754, Article id was mapped to record!
7

Aberdonian,

California 21/02/2007 02:59:29

"WHEN Bobby and Gordon Hogg meet up for a chat, they enter a linguistic world that few, if any, can no longer understand."

The tragedy is not the death of this dialect, but the abyssmal ignorance of English among the Scotsman's sub-editors.

8

Scullion,

Canada 21/02/2007 03:11:56

#6
Ho-ho, well spotted.

9

bill inch,

edinburgh 21/02/2007 03:15:12

They die because they they are dead get real for christ sake we cannot keep funding the past like this

10

Tatties ower the side,

Johannesburg 21/02/2007 03:41:36

Good to see the Cromarty dialect had some rules. Never been able to pin any rules down in my native Aberdeenshire Doric.
Incidentally, my wife and i will often revert to "the Doric" in restaurants in Johannesburg if we want to comment on other customers without them knowing what is going on.

11

Pete39,

Tassy 21/02/2007 05:03:58

I had not realised it, but I may also speak the Cromarty dialect. Usually when I forget to put in my teeth.

12

Chuck.U.Farley,

21/02/2007 05:11:58

#6 Read again !!!!!!!!!!!
"WHEN Bobby and Gordon Hogg meet up for a chat, they enter a linguistic world that few, if any, can now understand." (sic)

13

MarkB,

USA 21/02/2007 05:31:10

Sounds more like two old geezers and their colourful local expressions than a dialect. This fetish for language is nutty. languages, dialects and accents come and go, and five years after these old coots are buried no one will care about their quaint manner of speaking except the dreaded graduate students looking for a dissertation subject.

14

Royster,

21/02/2007 05:43:09

Sounds like a Yorkshire dialect.

15

Chaz,

Edinburgh 21/02/2007 06:17:48

>>They die because they they are dead get real for christ sake we cannot keep funding the past like this
Sad that a Scotsman (I only assume you're Scottish, being from Edinburgh) feels this way. It's a beautiful language, as is true Scots, Gaelic, etc...they're OURS. We need to keep them. They're our history as well as our future.

>>This fetish for language is nutty. languages, dialects and accents come and go, and five years after these old coots are buried no one will care about their quaint manner of speaking except the dreaded graduate students looking for a dissertation subject.
Mark, it's comments like these that people say, "Ha! Only from an American"...and it's those comments that make me feel ashamed for my own country folk. I'm American by birth, Scottish by choice.

16

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/02/2007 06:46:19

8 - Better the money spent on the like of this than on our beloved leader's military adventures.

17

Pilrig,

Livingston 21/02/2007 06:48:45

13 - re Mark, Aye only from a Yank, an ignorant one too.

18

Mcsnagpile,

intransit 21/02/2007 07:03:12

What is the use of a fisher folk language when there are no fisher folk nor fish. At least save the fish. The local dinnae and widnae ken ra difference between a vowel an a jowel.

19

Scaramouche,

21/02/2007 07:10:00

#6. Abyssmal????? Get yir dictionary oot! An ah divnae mean yon Webster's rubbishy American effort!

If yer gaun tae hae a go at ither fowks' yaise o language, mak siccar yer ain isnae as bad .... or worsererer! (<- deliberate!!) :D

Actually, a good point is being made on whether this IS the remnants of a nearly-dead dialect or just two old codgers with speech defects kidding the Ivory-towered academics on. It wouldn't be the first time so-called intellectuals were caught out. One word ....... Piltdown!

20

dave A,

nz 21/02/2007 07:10:32

Mark* Ganawayanshyte man, as we say in Geordie land, long may our beautiful dialects exist, they make us what we are you troll of a man.

21

EWB,

UK 21/02/2007 07:15:41

This fascinating story is also reported in the Daily Telegraph today as "Brothers are last to speak dialect".

An interesting fact in the DT piece is: "It evolved when local fishermen in the town of Cromarty, on the Black Isle north of Inverness, picked up words from English soldiers based in the area in the 17th and 18th centuries."

So this area until perhaps as late as the 20th century was presumably also a Gaelic-speaking one. It is not just this Cromarty Fisher dialect that is disappearing in the Highlands.

22

MrsMac,

Falkirk 21/02/2007 07:28:59

Re: Mark B, not very considerate, are you? I am also an American but live in Scotland and tangibly appreciate the painful loss of this age and culture. Linguistics tell you so much about people and teach us their values. So, try appreciating others before slamming what's important to them. Nothing like letting our side down. No wonder Americans get such bad press. Silly boy.

23

eric,

Lothian 21/02/2007 07:32:20

I love the Gaelic bars in Glasgow ,Very freindly

24

William of Liberton,

21/02/2007 07:50:00

"When the vowel comes before an "r", as in ford, moor and poor, the word can be changed to fyoord, myoor and pyoor."

Private Eye and others used to transcribe the pronunciation of the late Tory Prime Minister, Edward Heath, with a "y" before "o" eg "tyowel" for "towel" with the "y" having something of an "ee" element in it.

Quote from Guardian, long ago:"And then - we had a nanny who did the same damage to her O and U sounds as Edward Heath. Poor mother was absolutely terrified of this, and if she did nothing else for me she saved me from having Edward Heath's O-U sounds, for which I am eternally grateful.' "

25

Richard IV,

Brisbane, Australia. 21/02/2007 07:54:34

The way you lot speak is something I miss everyday.Iknow you lot take the way you speak for granted,but all my kidz have little "Aussie accents its "No natural"! Good on the old tools for keeping it going,although my favorite is the Borders,a different one in every village!

26

Borderman,

Borders 21/02/2007 08:06:36

#11 MarkB

I'm with you on this. I find the idea of "preserving" languages ridiculous. As you say, they come and go, and are forever changing. I know some will be on your case because you're from the US, but those will be the ignorant ones who don't suppose for a minute that the US might have many obscure and colourful dialects too.

There's a Gaelic primary school in Edinburgh. I suppose its stated purpose is to preserve "our" traditional language. The odd thing is that Gaelic has never been the native language of Edinburgh. It serves the backward-looking dreams of some old fossils. Our children would be better served by learning Chinese.

27

AGT,

Edinburgh 21/02/2007 08:15:06

Read about and listen to Scots dialects at www.scotslanguage.com Starting tomorrow there will be a series of Lent and Easter readings from the Scots New Testament.

28

Alec in Chicago,

21/02/2007 08:15:56

20 MrsMac

May I look forward to you joining me in my occasional reminders to certain posters not to be 'ugly Americans'?

29

Alec in Chicago,

21/02/2007 08:19:55

24 Borderman

It's the way he phrased his opinion that I found offensive.

30

ludwig,

Greenviille, S.C./Apple Valley, California 21/02/2007 08:20:49

The Dialect is not totally dead. It can be still heard in various parts of the United States which had heavy settlements of Scots. Part of the twang of upper South Carolina and North Carolina comes from this dialect and thee and thou are still used in various communities of the United States such as the Fishermen of the Outer Banks of North Carolina and Virginia and in isolated parts of Maryland.

Unfortunately modern communications has had a bad effect on the native ways people use to speak.

31

Mcsense,

Leif 21/02/2007 08:40:19

Royster, may you burn in hell for putting your comparison the wrang wi roond!

32

eric,

Lothian 21/02/2007 08:48:27

24 hear what your saying ,But if we lose the language all together Then we are English ,We are not saying we want to ram gaelic down anyones throat,It should be kept alive

33

Expat artist,

abroad 21/02/2007 08:55:35

The comments of the plebeian few bemoaning spending a few bawbees to record for posterity the richness of a dialect, irrespective of however parochial it may be, are pathetic.
We should support wholeheartedly the efforts of the dedicated few who take on this task, as without their efforts some real Scots pearls will be lost.
The descriptive accuracy of droothy (thirsty), birl (to spin/revolve), barkit (dirty), bawface (chubby), braw (good/handsome - Swedish 'bra'), quine (unmarried woman - related to 'kvinde'- Danish), loupin (running or throbing), Teuchter (Highlander - albeit derogatory), and dreich (cold, wet and miserable) will be lost, and we the poorer for that.
In fact, what we should be doing is investing more in an all-out effort to enrich the impoverished English language before it's too late.
PS. Anyone know the origin of dreich?

34

Swilly Tisher,

Loch Maree 21/02/2007 09:05:48

Fit like , loon ?

35

Pete39,

Tassy 21/02/2007 09:07:48

No idea, but it is a pretty common Scottish word. Usually to describe the weather.

36

jennie,

inverness 21/02/2007 09:11:32

much of this fishing dialect looks as though it is closer to norse than scots - which is pretty close to old norse anyway as #31 has just pointed out

incidentally, #6, the Scotsman's subs may not be too hot on grammar but I bet they know how to spell "abysmal" ;)

37

IWright,

Edinburgh 21/02/2007 09:23:38

#31
Expat - go to http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/

A free online dictionary of the Scots language

38

Rory Claymore,

North of Dundee 21/02/2007 09:33:38

re "dreich": this word originally referred to the normal weather around the Dundee area, but now is well adapted to a description of the commentary columns of the Hootsmon. orig:"dreigeasach"..meaning "peevish"?

39

Expat artist,

home 21/02/2007 09:40:35

# That's my point. We should export our exact vocabulary. The average Englishman has to say,"Oh dear, what a cold, wet miserable day". The Scot, "Aye, dreich it is." Economical and limits breathing in the gunje so it's healthy, too.

40

heather fae the hills,

21/02/2007 09:57:38

This is a lovely article and a breath of fresh air! Being an ex-pat Cromarty lass, I know the Hogg brothers and it is good to see Mr Hogg looking in fine fettle.
19 EWB I believe some of Cromwell's men were once stationed at Lady Hill in Avoch and married local women.
There were many Cornish men among them and their dialect may have merged with the Avoch vernacular.
Sadly, they brought the Huntingtons Chorea gene with them and there is a high instance of this recurring in Avoch families even today.

Listening to the Hoggs talking is like hearing the sea wash over pebbles! It is a joy to hear.

41

Yane,

melbourne 21/02/2007 10:09:46

Do any of you know the word & how to spell the word "oose" -- that's how it sounds -- meaning the fluff & dust under the bed? My mum used the word to one of her Australian friends & she was taken with it cos it sounded exactly like what it described!

42

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 21/02/2007 10:16:55

Even in this article about the dying of tradition some nutcase (yes, you #5 Voldemort) manages to piggyback the usual claptrap about how we're going to be taken over by Muslims and it's all the fault of the "left PC", whatever that is. What has speaking a form of Scots got to do with that?

43

1969 , In the Sunshine,

21/02/2007 10:17:46

Jamie Gaukroger , put at least some results here ( or somewhere similar).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Extinct_languages_o...

Anybody know the derivation of such great Edinburgh slang as "ken" "dreep" and "shan" ?

44

just another expat - detatched from reality,

21/02/2007 10:27:21

#39 I think you have the right spelling, or at least an acceptable one (there may be alternatives). The word is thought to be derived from the old Scots word for wool. Here's a link to a (probably not authoritative) Scots dictionary.

http://www.britannia.org/scotland/scotsdictionary/o.shtml

45

heather fae the hills,

21/02/2007 10:34:20

41 I think "shan" derives from the cant. I'm not familiar with the context of the word as spoken in Edinburgh but it is used a lot in Dingwall. "Shanness" is used to to express shock or dismay.

46

PaganScot,

Nagoya, Japan 21/02/2007 10:40:41

re 6 and 7. Did anybody NOT spot it?! Beautifully phrased though! Well done.

47

AJ,

Fife 21/02/2007 10:47:56

Does anyone know why Fifers use the term - shahoorsur or yahoorsur?

I've used this all my life, but I'm unable to clarify what the origin of the above saying is.

Please, please can anyone help a troubled and confused Fifer!!

48

G,

dundy 21/02/2007 10:52:48

My brother and I used our own language to prevent others (mainly adults) understanding what we were saying - it was mainly backwards English with a few codenames for particular people

Can I have a Culture Grant to study it?

BTW I agree with #40 - remembering our past is something that the left PCers have led the line on - the Cromarty folk are as mush a minority as the Muslims were!

49

,

21/02/2007 10:55:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
50

heather fae the hills,

21/02/2007 10:55:41

AJ Just as wee laddies come equipped with genetically programmed car noises, I think this also applies to the Fife "yahoorsir".
I thought it was "your whore, Sir" the first time I heard it.......

51

,

21/02/2007 10:56:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
52

,

21/02/2007 10:59:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

,

21/02/2007 11:00:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
54

AJ,

Fife 21/02/2007 11:03:25

HC,

What your research proves is that I'm the only Fifer,from the wrang side of the tracks, that has a computer!!

btw, I was in the GTF last week and I haven't stopped scratching eversince!!!

55

AJ,

Fife 21/02/2007 11:10:21

Heather,

That was my understanding, but why?? I know Methil had a substantional number of "women of the night", but this was probably the only area, apart from Rosyth, Kirkcaldy and Lundin Links!

btw, how is your battle with the arch 'Hoor', the Earl of Mansfield, coming on?

56

AJ,

Fife 21/02/2007 11:10:52

Substantional!!!!???

57

AJ,

Fife 21/02/2007 11:17:14

HC,

Apologies - GTF should be GFT(Glesca Film Theatre)

:)

58

PaganScot,

Nagoya, Japan 21/02/2007 11:26:11

#47 Chuck. Number 6 is right and so are you. #6 is quoting from the paperboy@nevis.scotsman.com e-mail, whereas you're quoting from the net article.

59

Mine's an.80 bob,

Edinburgh 21/02/2007 11:27:18

I bet the brothers can have have those rocks taken out of their mouths so even we can understand them.

60

AJ,

Fife 21/02/2007 11:34:56

HC,

It was a film called Finding Bob McArthur - only on fur wan night! It wiz part of the Glesca Filim Festival!

It is a independantly produced filim and aw the actors worked for free - John Stahl and Maureen Beattie were amongst the cast!

61

AJ,

Fife 21/02/2007 11:54:11

HC,

It was only on for one night - a world premiere!! I think they were still in the process of tidying up the production! There was a question and answers session, chaired by Alan Hunter, at the end of the screening and it was clear they wanted to edit further.

The Piaf movie sounds good and I've downloaded some of Piaf's finest songs on to ma Ipod. So I'll be set up for the film!!

62

Expat artist,

abroad 21/02/2007 12:02:27

# 41 Ken is quite common, like the old song " Do ye ken John Peel?"
Origin: probably Scandinavia, definitely Danish, where the verb to know is 'at kende'.

Thanks for the websites, very civilized.

#54 And, Wee Berty with his excrement fettish:
all good Anglo-Saxon words, early English to you, which you just about manage.

63

Apoplectic Insouciant,

Abz 21/02/2007 12:10:40

*46
Peggrfeggct meggust begg freggom Feggorfeggar

64

Am Baile,

Inverness 21/02/2007 12:11:49

#41 - The interview and conversation, once recorded, will be available to listen to and download from www.ambaile.org.uk

65

IWright,

Edinburgh 21/02/2007 12:33:17

Sad to see the same old misconceptions and basic lack of knowledge about the Scots language. This is what happens when we don't teach our own culture in our own schools.
The best resource for individual words is the one I linked earlier: http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/
For an understanding of Scots and its history try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_Language

66

Lianachan,

HIghlands 21/02/2007 12:49:39

Many of the examples of pronunciations in the article are strongly reminiscent of Norn.

67

Joe the Mod,

Bathgate West Lothian (origin. Glesga no Gleeska) 21/02/2007 12:59:39

Ma Ma wid send me doon the lowbae(lobby) tae the scullery tae get a jeelyjar oot the press fur the saturday matinee at the flicks. Wan dae I drapt it oan the road it smashed oan a stank(drain) an a ran hame greeting bee baw!

68

Calum Crubag,

21/02/2007 13:03:06

#11 - typical thick Yank.

#16 - Yeah Gaelic was the language of Cromarty too not so long ago and both Gaelic speaking travelling people and fishers had their own verisons of Gaelic.

True too that Gaelic was once spoken in Edinburgh. Different lingustic communties either mixed or existed at different points but there's ample evidence to suggest lots of Gaelic communities in the Lothians and Borders between 1000 and 1200. In Edinburgh we have names like Calton (Hill), Craigmiller, Corstorphine, Craiglockhart, Craigentinne, Ardmillan etc.

Watson's authoritive Celtic placenames of Scotland actually gives more Gaelic names in and around Peebles that Brythonnic ('old Welsh').

It's actually useful to learn Gaelic as you can see how much of an influence it had/has on our culture and history. Without it, you lose loads.

69

Calum Crubag,

21/02/2007 13:07:18

Beagan a bharrachd...!

This story is part of Scotland's history so why shouldn't it be recorded? Does history just have to be kings and queens?

Funny too how the people, usually reactionary right-wingers, who 'stand' for traditional British life and values (??!!) are usually the ones who decry support for our ancient 'British' languages? Similalry, 'support' for rural communities doesn't extent to crofters, presumably because there's no fox hunts in crofting communities? Nach neonach sin?!

70

Calum Crubag,

21/02/2007 13:11:32

I Wright, why not visit a school and see for yourself. The kids i know speak Gaelic, know Burns, could tell you about Picts, Wallace, the Clearances and Scots regiments in WWI.

as far as i know...
ken - from German kennen: to know
shan - from Gaelic sean: old, useless

71

Dougie, Edinburgh,

21/02/2007 13:13:17

24. Borderman
Why do you the Chinese language is so relevant to Scotland that Scots children should spend the many years required to learn it?

There's one Gaelic primary in the whole of Edinburgh. It’s hard to get a place there because it’s so popular. Presumably you'd rather it was a madrasah instead. I don't know why you think Gaelic was never spoken around Edinburgh. What do you think the etymology of Balerno is?

72

IWright,

Edinburgh 21/02/2007 13:17:27

#79
Calum - I have! Its true, things have improved recently about teaching our history and culture but I did Burns at school and that was it! Even now though, there is very little done compared with what is needed for Scots to understand their fantastic cultural heritage. I was referring to the Scots language mostly, and though the primary schools in particular have taken positive steps its still far too little and very patchy.

73

Dougie, Edinburgh,

21/02/2007 13:28:54

78. Calum Crubag
As a "reactionary right winger" myself :) I'm not too sure about your theory - the greatest enemies of Scots and Gaelic seem to me to be from progressive liberals who can only see the value in something if there's money in it - like poster #24 who thinks learning Chinese is more important

Ach co-dhiu, tha e uabhasach math gu bheil sibh smaoineachadh gu bheil clann Albannach ag ionnachadhd ar eachdraidh gu math an drasd :)

74

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/02/2007 13:37:25

Gaelic has actually made a big contribution to the English language - many common phrases or words have Gaelic origins. My favourite is probably the origin of the derogatory term "jessie" (as in, "you big jessie").

75

EWB,

UK 21/02/2007 13:57:06

Thank you, Heather fae the hills #38, for your point of information about the Cornish men among Cromwell's soldiers.

Until Dolly Penthrethick died in the early 18th century, the Cornish spoke their own version of P-Celtic (Breton, Cornish and Welsh). I wonder if remnants of that ancient language survived in the Cornish-English dialect that these soldiers employed in Cromarty.

By the way, Zoom #72, it was a form of Welsh (Brythonic Celtic) that was spoken in the South-West of Scotland (Galloway) and the Lake District, which for a time belonged to Scotland for many centuries. Q-Celtic (Goidelic) was never spoken in the whole of Scotland and it was the language of invaders.

Has anyone any idea of the nature of Pictish?

76

commonsense,

Fife 21/02/2007 14:00:51

Aye, Latin's nae whit it wis.

77

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/02/2007 14:02:30

#84 re: Pictish

Download (freely and legally) "Language In Pictland".

http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/2081/

Pictish is most likely to have been P-Celtic.

78

Frodo the Scot,

middle earth 21/02/2007 14:22:30

Save the dialect spend whats nessessary
no questions asked. If the corruptors in Embra can GIVE AWAY millions to ILLEGAL aliens then I say SAVE THE DIALECT FOR go-- sake its one of the few real Scottish traditions left.

79

EWB,

UK 21/02/2007 14:32:33

Thanks, Lianachan #86. I'll visit this website.

If Pictish was P-Celtic, then this refutes Zoom's claim #72 that Gaelic was spoken all over Scotland.
Was Pictish then Scotland's original language and has Gaelic as little right as English to this claim?

You probably know the other contribution of Gaelic "is math sinn" (that is good), which evolved into "smashing" as in "braw", "great".

80

Wheesht the noo,

Croydon 21/02/2007 14:35:31

Re: 'shan' - when I was at school (just outside Edinburgh) it meant 'unkind' or 'cruel'... e.g. if someone did something nasty to another pupil they would often be told 'that's shan' by onlookers. Sometimes with big smiles on their faces, enjoying the spectacle...

81

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/02/2007 14:49:20

#88 EWB

There would doubtlessly have been various dialects, exaggerated accents if you like, but placename evidence suggests a pretty widespread use of "Pictish". The Ordnance Survey website acually has some good information, and maps, of language distribution from placename evidence.

Gaelic, though, was indeed at one time spoken all over Scotland. Pictish has been dead for a long time, and there isn't much left in any form. It's difficult to distinguish Pictish placenames from Cumbric and other Brythonic ones, especially in the south of Scotland.

82

888,

Singapore 21/02/2007 14:56:07

If it were not for the beauty of the Scots language, Robert Burns may never have been inspired to write. The two gentlemen in question should be respected for both their knowledge and their link to our past and as such that knowledge should be fully documented without question. The ignorance as expressed by some of the above is a sad reflection of modern day society.

83

Media 1,

cape town 21/02/2007 15:15:48

All good things come to an end! !

84

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/02/2007 15:30:34

Something I forgot to say to EWB in #90

Gaelic was widely spoken, indeed was the main language, in south west Scotland until around the middle-ages. It did displace the earlier Brythonic languages you mentioned, though.

85

Carol S,

England 21/02/2007 15:31:46

Re:#79 Kids in Scotland are at least learning about their own past and culture in history lessons, even though you pick out the anti-English bits! Children in England haven't a clue about any English history these days.

86

Sawney Beane,

Glesca 21/02/2007 15:33:50

#84 EWB

You are actually quite wrong to believe that Gaelic was not spoken all over Scotland, especially in the south-east of Scotland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galwegian_Gaelic

For everyone else. Here is a very interesting map showing the ethnic/language divisions of Scotland around the 11th century. I found it most interesting.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/SCOTLA...

87

Sawney Beane,

Glesca 21/02/2007 15:36:29

Oops.

Correction, I meant south-WEST of Scotland.

88

Ally Palmer,

Inverkeithing 21/02/2007 15:50:23

OH THE BANTER!

89

Dougie, Edinburgh,

21/02/2007 16:16:03

95. Sawney Beane
It seems the south east borders were never Gaelic speaking and the map you uploaded agrees that at least at this time it was Germanic speaking. Since the pre Germanic language was most likely P Celtic and Germanic (ie. Scots) advanced westward after this time, it does seem unlikely that in this corner of Scotland at least, Gaelic was never widely spoken.

This doesn't invalidate your wider point of course it's just a minor qualification :)

90

Marie H-P,

USA 21/02/2007 16:24:43

Mark B just demonstrates the prejudice against dialects in the USA. In the US, a New Jersey accent , or Bronx accent and dialect/ word usage mark the speaker as uneducated and ungrammatical, and a Southern accent marks the speaker as "just a little slow"(in the head, that is).

The prejudice is so pronounced that the many telephone intensive businesses located in the southern states send their employees to "accent reduction" classes so customers don't complain about "stupid-sounding" customer service representatives.

Although we live in Michigan, my daughter attended university at Georgia Tech in Atlanta and now lives and works there. She makes a large effort to not not aquire a southern accent or manners of speech.

91

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/02/2007 16:25:03

#98

Gaelic was widely spoken for a time in west Lothian, in and around Edinburgh and in a few other places, but it was never the main language of the area.

92

Miss Jean Brodie,

21/02/2007 16:31:12

Cum awa the Picts!

93

Sawney Beane,

Glesca 21/02/2007 16:53:36

#98 Dougie

Yes, you are right that Gaelic may have not been widely spoken in the South-east of Scotland, but there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Gaelic WAS spoken there.

This is due to some placenames in the south-east of Scotland which obviously originally from Scottish Gaelic or Gaelicified versions of the orginal place name i.e. Melrose, Kelso, Innerleithen, Kilbucho, Auchencrow etc, are among a number of these placenames.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melrose%2C_Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelso,_Scotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innerleithen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilbucho
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auchencrow

So the point still stands that Gaelic was once spoken ALL over Scotland.

So, whatever the size of influence in certain areas of Scotland, this really means not a whit of difference to this patent fact.

94

Yowser,

Edinburgh 21/02/2007 16:55:38

Shame on you #6. You're clearly not very good on detail you numbskull! Apart from spelling abysmal wrong, you've not read the Scotsman correctly and in doing so have completely changed it's meaning.
Go and stand in the corner or stop watching too much t.v. and chomping on cheeseburgers!!!

95

,

21/02/2007 17:26:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

,

21/02/2007 17:43:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

Byron,

Redwood City, California 21/02/2007 17:46:00

#11---Knucklehead. Don't embarrass the rest of us over here. What you said was just some stupid venting. Show some respect and stop trying to cause angry dialogue just to get your rocks off.
#99---interesting point. My family comes from Scotland (way back when) and migrated to the south before heading west. Accents have always been looked down upon here. I believe it's "uneducated" roots of the prejudice come from the New England area where only the old English aristocratic settlers were based and looked down on all the other immigrants from Scotland, Ireland, and other parts of Europe.

98

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 21/02/2007 17:48:26

The Babel of the Tongue has cometh at last.

Was foretold in Revelations.

99

scotspatriot,

ahint thon curtains 21/02/2007 18:04:37

Ah've nae hid time tae protract ower a yer scratchins bit ah've glowered at enuch tae tell ma that some o ye's seem tae be scunnered enuch tae cas derision on yer ain mither tongue.

Shame on ye's.

100

Doh,

21/02/2007 18:05:05

Better they spend some money recording these two old codgers than wasting money producing this nonsense

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/inde...

gonnae no dae that

101

lilleth,

Borders 21/02/2007 18:05:55

At the end of the day Scots and English are the most wonderful languages, containing the most fantastic dialects, it's lovely to be able to tell where someone comes from by the words and dialect they use. To me what makes them both so fascinating is that they are composed of many words and habits that have been absorbed from other cultures and countries, and show the rich diversity of the people and history of this land. it is horrible to lose something so valuable and people should hold on to their identity.
Someone mentioned the lovely Borders dialects, great but you won't hear it very often in anyone under 40, the whole thing having become a homogonised watered down version of TV weedgie, due to several of our local estates becoming sink holes for overspill. oh the joys of speaking to my uncle with his lovely lilting Gala accent.
Growing up in the somewhat less salubrius parts of Edinburgh with a Scots mum and English dad I was forever being told by my dad to 'speak properly', then you just get bullied for being 'posh'.
However I think theres room for all accents and dialects, like most folk in Scotland I have my 'posh' telephone/business voice, and the way I speak to friends and family, which doesn't mean I'm ashamed of the way I speak just that I have concideration for someone who won't have a clue what I mean by peelmerk, donnert, gundi, siver, baufin, gliff, mingin , or that when I mention a heel I'm talking bread not feet etc.
Just be greatful we can change and adapt our language and don't have some college of stuffy proffessors like the French who decide whats acceptable and whats not.

102

scotspatriot,

ahint thon curtains 21/02/2007 18:12:18

fitidhedee?

Now thats Doric.

103

James1480,

Mississipi, USA 21/02/2007 18:14:40

#11 MarkB may sound like an intolerant, ugly American, but the boy spells color with a "u".
Ain't no American he, unless naturalized.

104

Haggismaker,

21/02/2007 18:17:39

"So the point still stands that Gaelic was once spoken ALL over Scotland."
Not in Shetland, where there is still a glorious mix of Norn, Scots, English and (arguably) French.

105

Haggismaker,

21/02/2007 18:21:32

112 - Foo's yer dyen? Fit leik?

106

scotspatriot,

ahint thon curtains 21/02/2007 18:22:10

Aye, aye loon, chavin, aye pickin.

107

scotspatriot,

ahint thon curtains 21/02/2007 18:24:32

115
Aye, aye loon, chavin, aye pickin.

neeps aye growen in straicht dreels

108

Geoff,

South Africa 21/02/2007 18:40:35

Bobby and Gordon-wonderful old gentlemen from a less complicated age. Sadly we are losing dialects and accents in the British Isles to Internationaltechnospeak English-especially in the heavily populated London conurbation when little regional accents have melted, in my life time into a horrible flat dull southern English.Many of my older friends could pinpoint accents to villages a few miles down the road from where they lived.We will be poorer for the loss of these mini cultures

109

Faye,

Scotland 21/02/2007 18:47:24

Ya tak thaw rooad tae get tae granny's heilan hame!

That was the language ah wis faced wae when ah happened to ask for some directions frae a local from Peterhead or wis it Peterheid in Aberdeenshire?

The accent was lovely, the warmth genuine, the people friendly but as a Scot, ah wiz left standin no sure of whaur I wiz!

Save these dialects so we can hear them, even if it is in a local museum.

110

ThePeter,

Glasgae 21/02/2007 18:51:25

People who never lent to speak English properly so they pretend it's a dialect....

111

scotspatriot,

ahint thon curtains 21/02/2007 19:06:02

ThePeter
Maybe you should learn to spell correctly?

Mmmmmm.........

112

MarkB,

USA 21/02/2007 19:08:51

"#11 MarkB may sound like an intolerant, ugly American, but the boy spells color with a "u".
Ain't no American he, unless naturalized."

Actually, I used the British spelling consciously - when in Rome, and all....

A few notes: the anti-American bigotry comes out rather quickly, doesn't it? It's always interesting how people expose their own failings in their criticisms of others. I made a criticism of the romanticism of language that had no national content, yet the yahoos rise to a bait that only exists in their own small minds. If nothing else, it exposes a profound insecurity, don't you think? The truth is, by the time people start setting up schools so save a language and run about the countryside with tape recorders to do their "oral histories", the game is already lost. Language needs community - by definition. We aren't talking about a painting here, or folk songs. Two old men may still be capable of speaking what once was a dialect, but the dialect is already dead. And I didn't kill it - you did. You, Scots, or at least some of you, stopped using it in your shops and kitchens, and it died. RIP.
As for me, my distinctive Boston accent, so amusing to friends from across the country, is dying a swift death in its own home. I could walk for hours in my old neighborhood and not hear the dropped "r"s of "pahk the cah". The streets are now full of Dominicans, African-Americans, lesbians who came for college and settled, and not an Irish-American to be seen. Do I care? No more than the people who came before the Irish immigrants cared about their replacements. Times change.
Making a fetish of quaint manners of speech would me more impressive if you were actually going to learn them and use them every day with your children. Turning two old men into Scots-Disneyland is just silliness. They had their time and lives, and you have yours.

113

Dougie, Edinburgh,

21/02/2007 19:21:35

102. Sawney Beane
If you mean Gaelic being spoken in the SE Borders but not as the main language then I accept your point. Good links BTW :)

#114 raises an interesting point - I don't know about Shetland.

99. Marie H-P, USA
What you say about regional accents in the USA is the same in Britain. A lecturer did an experiment whereby he delivered exactly the same lecture to different classes using various accents and the students were then asked to rate how knowledgeable the lecturer seemed. Their response was very positive when he used a RP (BBC English) accent and worst when he used a Birmingham accent. In Edinburgh especially, speaking local Scots is seen as uncultivated.

114

Don Balya,

Bridgeville, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. 21/02/2007 19:24:05

We in Western Pennsylvania are often made fun of for our accent, but we all would hate to see it disappear. It is robust enough right now that that does not seem likely. I hope that at least this Cromarty dialect can be recorded. It seems unlikely that it will survive, though, more's the pity.

115

Auld-Farren,

21/02/2007 19:24:37

In the end it's not the words--it's the music of the speech that falls so deft and sweet upon the ear.

If someone long ago hadn't seen fit to preserve Latin, Gaelic, and Scots we'd have no access to the fabulous wealth of human thought and feeling that has come forward to us through the written word.

Otherwise, we might labour under the illusion that modern man created the world and all that in it is.

116

Lianachan,

Highlands 21/02/2007 19:35:55

#114 Shetland hasn't been part of Scotland for long, in the scheme of things. The first recorded name for Shetland, used in Irish records, is "Innes Cat" - suggesting the same inhabitants as Caithness and Sutherland at that time.

117

Joanna (really),

21/02/2007 19:41:42

I haven 't heard anyone roll an R in Edinburgh for 10 years. Now that's a loss.

118

CountessK.,

London 21/02/2007 19:52:55

I'm Bobby Hogg's granddaughter, and I can confirm that they really do speak like that. I remember hearing Grandad speaking to friends and his now deceased sister in the old dialect, and although I couldn't begin to speak it myself I could make a wee bit of sense of it.

He calls my 7-month old son his 'wee cheelakie' (I have no idea how to spell that so I've just reproduced roughly how it sounds), if that makes any sense to anyone here?

119

Joe American,

US of A 21/02/2007 20:17:28

To Mark B--

Thanks for keeping alive the Ugly American steroetype, ya ignorant 'ank. Please stay home, with your kind. And best of luck to you--I'll take my fries a little more done, please.

120

Liz T.,

bellingham,washington,usa. 21/02/2007 20:26:10

Experts in languages are hopefully recording their voices and taking lots of notes, and their stories. Languages along with their cultures are dissapearing all over the world, and it is a tragic loss for us all. We need to go into the future with a strong connection to the past.

121

Derick fae Yell,

21/02/2007 21:01:40

Dreich

Origin: from Middle English dreig, drih (enduring), [as in dree] possibly from Old English dreog. Related to the Old Norse drjugr - lasting.
- Suddron 'drogue' has as similar feel - as in being a drag, a thing that slows you down

I DO laek dis idea dat Gaelic wisna widely spoaken ida Belto Centrrallo an da Boarders. A peu eccentric ta use if fur sae mony plece neems dan!!

Kirkintilloch
Kirk (scots - Kirk) an tulach (gaelic 'on the hill').
Meikle Bin Miekle (scots) Ben (Gaelic)

An dat, bernes, is macaronic.

au revoir fae un home des Isles de Sheltlandes

122

CANUCK,

TORONTO -CANADA 21/02/2007 21:25:05

NO 41 #

Re " dreep it"

Growing up in Nehaven (between Granton and Leith we were know as "Bow Tows) as boys we used this expression quite a lot.

When you climbed a wall and had to come down you could either "jump it" or "dreep it."
Dreep it - meant that you turned around facing the wall and lowered yourself till you held on only by your fingertips and then let go

You do this only if you were "feart"

123

Becca D-H,

Nevada, USA 21/02/2007 21:27:00

I thought this was absolutely fascinating! We honeymooned in Ireland last fall and I was completely taken by the different dialects and the linguistic history. Apologies on the behavior of my countrymen- we're not all ignorant, dismissive wanks.

124

,

21/02/2007 21:49:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
125

Joseph,

Surrey 21/02/2007 22:01:15

Reminds me of when my sister lived down here. When asked by a rather supercilious Englishman if she always rolled her r's, she replied, "No aw-ways, jist when ah wear high heels!"

126

AngusMor,

God's Own Island 21/02/2007 22:02:29

Kirk is from the nordic word for church, not a Scots word.

127

Deeds,

haeme 21/02/2007 22:33:15

31.
dreich - dorch - dark, dull

128

A "Dirty Dago",

Italy 21/02/2007 22:37:08

Sad that theScotsman's "English" is none the simpler understood...... surely your headline ".. a linguistic world that few, if any, can no longer understand." means, in English, a linguistic world which only a few do not understand = normal spoken English?? and this, one presumes is the antithesis of what the writer intended to say.

Perhaps the Scotsman staff should take lessons from the Hogg brothers?

129

wattie>x 1,

21/02/2007 22:37:48

Being over eighty years old myself, I spent most off sixty four years of my life living down south, as my late wife was a wonderful little English lady, but, my Ayrshire dialect and Scottish birthright were too remain forever sacrosanct to me.
I have always felt strongly about the preservation off dialects wherever they originate from but, obviously those from Scotland, are top of my list. My own family were all born in Scotland; whenever my late wife became pregnant, off went a letter to my old mother asking her if it was all right for us to come on holiday for a month. After the first letter, she knew when she received further requests that
another grand child was on the way. I have four sons, the eldest being sixty and my daughter the youngest, fifty two, and always converse with them in broad Ayrshire dialect, although they speak good English. It really saddens me to see how fast our national dialects have been polluted by Yankee slang when listening to our younger generations.
One *auld* Ayrshire word *BRIT* meaning brute; is now commonly used today since being hijacked to mean a resident off the disunited UK; and I deeply resent when I am being termed a *BRIT*. Another word *Jock* I resent being termed; as this was our word for John and not a Scot! I believe Dennis Law, the well known footballer, followed along the same path as I did, with his family being born in Scotland; although I am open for correction on this one!

130

Deeds,

haeme 21/02/2007 22:55:39

139.
should have gone to specsavers mate.
try again

131

Deeds,

haeme 21/02/2007 22:57:12

or me. sorry. post was for 138

132

TREV,

Poland 21/02/2007 23:01:43

I've known Edinburgh girls roll their r's but maybe it was th effect of their stillettoes.

#41 Ken is a from the Nordic/germanic "kennen". In modern German you'll find words like "Kennen" : "to know".

This is also perhaps where "canny" comes from, and 'cunning'.

Also words like "gan" (maybe nearer to Northumbria) from Germanic 'gehen' 'to go'.

"Bairn", Scandinavian "Barn" for a child/baby

133

TREV,

Poland 21/02/2007 23:04:15

When I was at Glasgow University one la became the first person in 500 years of the uni's history to complete his entire degree in Scots (and Gaelic, I believe).

Ironically the uni authorities only permitted it by recognising Scots as a 'variety of English'

134

TREV,

Poland 21/02/2007 23:04:26

When I was at Glasgow University one lad became the first person in 500 years of the uni's history to complete his entire degree in Scots (and Gaelic, I believe).

Ironically the uni authorities only permitted it by recognising Scots as a 'variety of English'

135

Fifer in exile,

Staffordshire 21/02/2007 23:19:47

Goodness - I've nevee seen so many posts on a topic - how we all love our language.

Will anyone out there give me a £xxxxxxxxx grant to record the 400 natives of Wolverhampton that work in our factory? Their's is a very obscure dialect known as 'yam-yam' and every bit as colourful as that on Cromarty. The problem is that is has no romantic connection to a picturesque location in a declining population - so it is looked down upon as being used by poorly educated, working class people. This was probably true of the Cromarty dialect many years ago.

Our factory is like a little microcosim of the United Nations under one roof with not only local Wolverhamton dialect but a generous helping of Asian, African and Easter European all adding to the mix. It's a lot of fun!

My mother was from Buckie and spoke Doric; my father was from Fife - I was born in Fife but moved to a coal mining village in Staffordshire whilst still at school. As a result of wanting to fit in with everyone, I quickly acquired a knack of sounding like the person I was talking to! And I have excellent auditory discrimination and can pinpoint accents fairly accurately within a few miles.

All our accents and dialects are brillian fun to live with - the snobbery around them is hillarious!!

But they will always be changing and although it's fun to preserve a recording, it's just a passing amusement.

Oi ay got nothin moore to say on the matter. Terrarabit.

136

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 21/02/2007 23:47:18

Very interesting topic and some good comments. One point that everyone has over looked while discussing the Gaels and the Picts is, prior to the Gaelic language being spoken Welsh was actually the language of the Britons and was spoken as far wide as Lanarkshire. Paisley and Govan are actualy from Welsh origons.
There is a small church in Govan, that is not very well publicised that backs this up. Under the floor there are some very old stones written entirely in Welsh and pre-dates the Gaels.

137

AJ,

Fife 22/02/2007 00:04:49

Could "yahoorsir" be Pictish?!!

138

DMF,

Minnesota, USA 22/02/2007 01:07:50

How about this--you stop calling us "Yanks" and we'll quit with the "Brits". Deal?
Also, calling us "Ugly Americans"--well, how '60s of you. And boorish. Writers who seem to think that all Americans are insensitive, illiterate running dog capitalist pigs, without education or grace, well, that is off-putting. Perhaps we are all or some of those things, but the name-caller is the one who comes across as ill-bred. Consider this, also: if the Americans reading "The Scotsman" are not entitled to have opinions, you'll just have to block our access to your paper. If we are so awful, then by extension so must your paper be, as we awful ones have CHOSEN to read it. Guess it is just another example of the bad taste of Americans, hmmmm? I cry to think how parochial beloved Scotland has become. O woe.

139

Yane,

melbourne 22/02/2007 01:31:51

#148 I am sure you are very sensitive, literate & gracious.
But you might have to demonstate it in another post.
(Mibbee try holding back on slagging off the Scots)

140

Lianachan,

Highlands 22/02/2007 01:33:56

#146 Welsh was one of several Brythonic languages spoken across the British Isles. With the possible exception of Pictish, they share a common root, called "British", and are pretty similar. Welsh was ONE of the languages spoken by Britons, not THE language spoken by Britons. Are you talking about Old Govan Church? It's pretty well known, actually, and extremely interesting for a variety of reasons - viking graves, hogback tombstones, etc... Poetry in Old Welsh, dating from the 9th /10th century has been found in Scotland, but that doesn't neccessarily mean the language was spoken by the populace at large.

141

The Gorm,

Cda 22/02/2007 03:01:56

Just for accuracy Scottish isn't a language it is a corrupted version of English (as nice as it is).

142

West Texas Phantom,

San Antonio, Texas 22/02/2007 04:00:44

#11 Mark B is obviously a young kid with aspirations of becoming a troll. Since Yahoo closed their news comment feature, all the trolls have desperately sought other forums for their witless comments designed to sow strife and dissension.

The best response to a troll is don't feed him!

143

Cheryl,

22/02/2007 04:15:56

#99 - Isn't that the truth. No one makes jokes about people in the northern states being stupid and inbred, at least nowhere near as much as the South and Appalachia and New Yawkers certainly get slammed for being rude and impatient. You make an interesting point about how the prejudice might have developed.

#111 - It is not a waste of time to try to preserve the dialect. Its value is not in how many people it's of use to and how many speak it, it is that the dialect is a piece of Scottish history and culture and deserves to be taken as seriously as any other dialect. Recording it is not only of use to graduate philology students. It's also a very useful tool for historians, sociologists, anthropologists,archaelogists, and genealogists. It has immense value.

144

Wil,

SW Pennsylvania, USA 22/02/2007 05:43:23

Don #124:

Don, let them scoff at our Pittsburghese and our SWPA tongue! I bet If some Gaelic speaking Scots came to visit us they'd be pleasantly suprised to hear some of our words and phrases!

Let's not be nebby and red up the hahse!!!

God bless Scotland! See you'ens in October!

145

Thistle06,

Canada via Greenock 22/02/2007 05:49:55

"Just for accuracy Scottish isn't a language it is a corrupted version of English (as nice as it is)."

I've always considered that rather than Scottish dialects being corrupted or bastardized versions of the English language that they are more each area's interpretation of a language that was required to be learned in order to be involved in the ever expanding trade and travel world of days gone by. Hence some 'misunderstood' pronunciations have thankfully lingered, let alone some orgins having nothing to do with the English language at all.

Having been brought to Canada at a very young age I was fortunate to have been raised within a close knit Scottish community and with very strong Scottish traditions including the spoken word. So much so that my son and my neices and nephew continue to speak them on a regular basis. If there is one thing that as an ex-pat I am strongly aware of it's that if we don't keep our heritage strong and pass it on it will simply die off. My mum and dad still sound as if they just 'stepped aff the boat' and taught us to never forget where you come from or in my mum's words 'just because you get a new pair a' knickers don't forget the auld yens'. One of the reasons I love this site is the steady flow of patter from some of the regulars. Can you imagine Glasgow folk chuckin their way of speaking in order to 'correctly' pronounce a word? As the Glasgow Patter song says 'If ye cannae talk proper ye better shut yer trap'. I'm quite certain it's referring to keeping the patter ALIVE!

Aw the best!

146

maryalexberni,

munich 22/02/2007 07:18:59

"words that few... can NO LONGER understand"?????

147

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 22/02/2007 09:05:07

Thistle06, could'nt agree with you more. Scots is more bastardised by English than the other way around. Scots was once the official language when Gaelic became unfashionable, mainly after the union of the crowns and James decided he was off-ski down south.
There are many words that has nothing to do with English.
For me the word "Dreich" is the most discriptive of them all which again with no English equivelant.
Other words, Scunner, flit, sleekit, sonsie, breenge, gallus, graith, keir are to name a few words still used by millions of Scots each day especially in the north east where Scots is stil alive and well.
English and Scots are two different branches of the same root language, as Danish, Norweigian, Swedish and Icelandic are of the same root language.
After all, had the Spanish defeated the Portugese many hunderds of years ago one would argue that Portugese was merely a dialect bastardised by Spanish.

148

Heilan laddie,

Inverness 22/02/2007 09:15:48

Just example of a passage written in Old English and then in Scots from the beginnings.

Ongeredae hinae god almehtig
tha he walde on gulge gistiga
modig fore alle menn
afhoc ic ricnae kyninge
haelda ic ni dorstae

This is Olde English from the seventh century. The two languages branched off.
The same verse in Scots reads

Girded him then God Almichty
gin he stepped on the gallows
for aw mankind - strang willed
wiout fear. I held the Heich
Keing, Lord o Heiven.
Bou me doun, I daurna.

149

Friend-at-large,

22/02/2007 09:29:29

Thanks to all who have posted to share their experiences and knowledge. It has been great reading these posts.

As a ten-year-old I was so charmed by the beautiful and warm voice of a classmate's Scottish mother (present for a school drama production) that I wondered why he was such a naughty boy. And this was my impression when she was chiding him for something he'd done.

Does anyone know anything about the origin of Gaelic songs? The music is soothing to beasts at zoos. I sing Gaelic songs when some creature looks depressed and when there's no one around.

150

Scottie,

22/02/2007 10:29:13

Interesting article and replies! I hope that their immediate family and friends are encouraged enough by the responses to learn some of the dialect/language themselves and then it won't dee oot!

#6: yes, nearly as bad as the abysmal spelling or typing of some posters.

#9: ca canny potatoman, some of us can understand it! And commenting on other people is very rude anywhere.

151

Glenhuon,

New South Wales 22/02/2007 12:05:17

Having read through the posts on here brought back fond memories of my earlier days. I could tell as soon as someone spoke which local village they came from as the dialect would vary within a couple of miles. I was born and brought up in Midlothian, but travelled through the borders and the difference in each town was remarkable. Nitten, Gorebrig, Dalkeith and Bonnyrigg all had their own way of speech and the same for Gala, Hawick and Lauder.
In later years the dialects of Aberdeen, Peterhead, Frazeburgh, Wick and Oban sounded so different but were there to be learned, and I still use some of the words. The northern isles of Orkney and Shetland have a toungue all of thier own, more Norse than Scots but still music to the ears. The western isles, with the lilt of gaelic even in the pronunciation of english was something else. Definitely something to be preserved. Don't rubbish your dialect, it is something to treasure, it makes you and where you come from unique, be proud of it.
Having lived in Australia for the last 25 years and being told that Australians do not have an accent, regional or otherwise, I must say B******t, there is a difference between Western Australians, Victorians and Queenslanders that is obvious to anyone who cares to listen. the words are the same but the meaning varies from place to place. Dialects in the making ? Hopefully Yes :)

152

Scotian,

Ile Royale 22/02/2007 12:09:46

Most enjoyable, sometimes hilarious, pursuit of the mither tongue.

I like the new dialect from over the pond "honeymooned".

I thouight it worth mentioning that the language of the Gael would have taken a hundred years or so to infiltrate all over Caledonia after the sixth century colonisation of Argyll. The language of Strathclyde was presumably Cumbric (Welsh) & Brythonic before the invasion (and, indeed, after).

Another couple of points: Kirk appears to be common to a few European tongues, but according to OED it began as Anglo Sax, circe (Church)

Ken is also Anglo Sax, cennan.

The Scots language grew in the same way as O.Eng and M.Eng did. Its worthy of note that Scots Statutes were written in the Scots language while English Statutes were written in Norman French for a couple of hundred years in medieval times. It is an Anglo fable about Scots being a curruption of English. I suppose we can say that English is a Sassenach deviation of Scots, considering historical use.

Slainte

153

Glenhuon,

New South Wales 22/02/2007 12:24:32

BTW if you can find a song by Archie Fishers sister Ray, called "Listen To The Teacher" it says it all. :)

154

McCalley,

Appalachia 22/02/2007 14:51:42

Best of health to the brothers Hogg! I'm proud of my heritage and know far too little about my ancestors from Scotland.

155

TREV,

Poland 22/02/2007 16:19:40

It's worth remembering that England also has loads of dialects and until the printing press was invented local regions usually wrote in their own variety.

Even 'standard English' is a relatively recent invention.

To suggest Scots is a bastardised form of English is to suggest that all English is based on the Oxford dialect and that was the oldest and most original (which is moo moo poo). 'English' English just got standardised first.

There's also the old saying; "A language is a dialect with an army"

156

Thistle,

US 22/02/2007 18:05:45

Cheers to the Americans who verbally skelped MarkB (#11) for his ridiculous remark. People like him give the rest of us a bad name, but fortunately he is in the minority. Though I must also take exception to pilrig's (#15) usage of the word "yank" in reference to ALL Americans and yes I understand where the term comes from and why. However, as a Southerner, born and bred the term is quite offensive. Also to lump us all into that same "typical of a Yank" category, is like sayin that all Scots are penny-pinchers or any other stereotypical comment. Like Thistle6 (no relation) ;-) I come from a very rich Scottish heritage, one of which I am extremely proud. So God Bless those two dear auld men and the people who are helping them keep their heritage alive for future generations. We are all a sum of our ancestors and should embrace the past as much as we embrace the future.

157

JKuusenjuuri,

Athens, Georgia USA 22/02/2007 18:20:41

I can't claim any knowledge of Old Scottish or Gaelic as a second-generation American of Finnish ancesty, but I do hope we are not losing a grip on English as well. The kicker in the headline on the home page ends with "that few can no longer understand." This has the effect of a double negative: It should read "..that few can ANY longer understand."
In any case, I am all for native cultures and languages being preserved. I have been to Edinburgh and Glasgow once and loved them, by the way, especially the Festival!

158

Borders Girl in Oz,

Sydney - Australia 22/02/2007 22:31:26

I come from the Borders where there are many different dialects. Even though I live in Australia I strive to keep my accent alive - it's not so strong anymore (as I have to make myself understood) but it comes back full strength after a conversation with a relative.

I hope that everyone remembers where they come from, no matter where they choose to live. Never forget that or your language.


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.