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Thursday, 10th December 2009

Scotland the fit? Erza pucklie new loons and quines wi' a bar or twa tae gie ye a bit laugh

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Published Date:
31 August 2007
KITTLE up yer lugs!* Doric, that distinctive dialect of north-east Scotland, could be on for a comedy comeback after years of Central Belt humorists getting all the best lines.
BBC Scotland has commissioned the first radio comedy show in Doric since Scotland the What?, the pioneering act which bowed out 12 years ago after blazing a trail for north-east humour for more than 25 years.

Producer and talent scout Margaret-Anne Docherty said: "We have never done anything like this before. Many Scots won't be used to hearing it, and may struggle at first to understand some of it. But we don't compromise the Doric."

The BBC believes its new series, Desperate Fishwives, which it describes as a break from "the usual diet from the Central Belt", will hook a new generation on the dry wit of the North-east.

Buff Hardie, Stephen Robertson and George Donald blazed a trail for Doric humour when they launched Scotland the What? at the Edinburgh Fringe in 1969. Their act, which ran for 26 years, spanned stage and TV and turned the trio into national celebrities. Desperate Fishwives can justifiably claim to be carrying that comedy torch as one of the eight-strong troupe, John Hardie, is Hardie's son.

The members of the troupe who met at Aberdeen University, formed a theatre company in 1996 and performed their debut show to an audience of 400 over three nights. However, a loyal local following meant that by this year, their appearance at Aberdeen's His Majesty's theatre drew an audience of 6,000.

In the first 30-minute episode on Saturday, listeners will be introduced to spoof chat-show host, Robbie Shepherd, who gets his own programme because he is cheap to hire - or, as he puts, it: "Nae price is muckle low fir me."

He introduces himself and interview guests with the phrase "fit like, foo ye dein?" and calls all his guests quine or loon.

In a spoof interview with Kate Moss and Pete Doherty, he tells the frequently befuddled pop star: "A'm nae surprised ye canna unnerstand fit a'm saying. A saw you earlier stotting aboot and slurrin yer words - oot o the game wi drink nae doot, ken?"

And on troubled singer Amy Winehouse, he adds: "Michty, she's a hell of a fearsome looking quine, is she?"

Other characters in the show include the "couthie Doric vampire" and bowling fanatics Archie and Davie, whose refrain is that they are just "chavin awa!" - or getting on with it.

The most successful Scots comedy products have so far come from the west coast in the form of Govan's street philosopher Rab C Nesbitt and popular sitcom Still Game. Both shows became UK-wide hits after making the jump to network television. STV's comedy drama High Times, set in a Glaswegian tower block, was last year sold to 22 countries across Latin America. It was, however, dubbed into Spanish for local viewers.

BBC Scotland hopes Desperate Fishwives will be accessible across Scotland and may even achieve that supreme accolade of any comedy by spawning Doric catchphrases.

Brian McNair, a media analyst, said: "There is a tradition of strong Scottish comedy which focuses on specifics of Scottishness. The jokes in these shows tend to take the form of laughing at ourselves, for example the Rab [C Nesbitt] stereotype, which is a knowing, self- deprecatory stance on working-class life."

Scotland the What? ended in 1995 with a final performance at His Majesty's Theatre in Aberdeen. Despite playing to audiences across the UK and receiving MBEs to mark their longevity in showbusiness, the trio were suitably modest about their act - which they once summed up as "three semi-literate Scots taking an irreverent look at their country's institutions."

• Desperate Fishwives will be broadcast on BBC Radio Scotland tomorrow at 12:05pm.

*Pin back your ears.

'EXPRESSIVE' DIALOGUE IS IDEAL FOR COMEDY


WHAT makes Doric a good vehicle for comedy? Derrick McClure, senior lecturer in the English department of Aberdeen University, has one explanation. "The dialogue is very rich, very expressive, it's been used for poetry for well over a hundred years.

"What Scotland the What? did, more than anybody else, was establish a tradition of stage humour involving quick-fire dialogue which was used to parody or gently mock some of the traits of Aberdeenshire character."

Those traits - a reputation for being insular, taciturn and suspicious of change - have long been the butt of local jokes.

That sense of being remote is summed up by one exchange in which two Aberdonians discuss the village of Rhynie.

One person ventures: "There's some folk in London that have never heard of Rhynie," to which the reply comes: "There's some folk in Rhynie that have never heard of London."

The dialect can be traced back to the 16th century. Its distinctiveness is derived from the fact that the North-east did not have good road access to the Central Belt and so developed its own linguistic traditions.

The stubborn character attributed to Aberdeenshire is summed up by another sketch in which two friends talk on a doorstep. Every few minutes, the householder says to the visitor "Are you no comin' in?", to which the answer repeatedly is: "I'm nae comin' in! I'm nae comin' in!"

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 31 August 2007 12:31 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scots language
 
1

Murray in Canada,

31/08/2007 01:29:31

This sounds good. Will it be heard elsewhere? On the net, e.g.??

2

Continental,

31/08/2007 03:15:56

you may hear it online on Radio Scotland

3

Boy Wonder,

31/08/2007 05:46:12

" ... The most successful Scots comedy products have so far come from the west coast ..."

That's because both STV and BBC are so bloody Glasgow-centric, they've pushed nothing much else from anywhere except the usual dross!

There lots of East-coast humour going on every day, but you wouldn't think it existed cos it's never on the box!

I'll take the time to remind telly bosses that the late great Chic Murray was one of the East coast's finest exponents of our humour. And there's plenty more where that came from.

4

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 05:52:15

For anyone who might be confused by the reference to "that distinctive dialect of north-east Scotland", it's worth pointing out that it isn't a dialect of English but is one of the modern varieties (or "dialects") of Scots. Scots was Scotland's language of government and state in the period immediately before the country came under UK control.

The BBC's (tacit) policy has been to restrict the use of Scots in its programmes to the the occasional comedy, and exclude it from other areas of programming. The programme mentioned above is another example of this, and it's regrettable that the reporter did not seek to ask questions about this aspect of it.

It would be good if the coming changes in Scotland's broadcasting included the release of Scots from its current ghetto of comedy and nothing else. A short daily news programme would be a good start.

5

JB2003,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 06:20:34

Colin, don't be daft. Speaking English is one of the reasons why us Scots can pretty much up sticks and work anywhere with anyone. Let's not be morons and insist on more dross like River City; a smattering of doric is fine, but a smattering is all it should be.

To be fair to you Colin, at least you write your response in an understandable tongue unlike some of the numpties who post in doric and auld Scots. We'll get nowhere as a nation if we become more colloquial.

6

Kate,

Switzerland 31/08/2007 06:44:19

Boy Wonder and Colin Wilson, both well put! JB2003, speaking English is all very well, but the local dialects and accents, both of Scots and English should not be allowed to die out. Here in Switzerland there is so much pride in the local vernacular, although modern "high German" is taught in schools and all can speak it. That is the kind of attitude we need for our own languages.

7

inter alia,

Edinburgh 31/08/2007 07:00:24

before each broadcast might it not be helpful to publish a doric-english glossary in a suitable paper [eg the scotsman]. in this way the further integration of many cultures, many faiths could well be realised.

8

Duncan in Edinburgh,

31/08/2007 07:10:27

#4 Ha! You are so determined to be oppressed that you fail to notice that no-one is actually oppressing you. This is truly the saddest form of the Scottish cringe.

9

Igor2,

Nae bad land 31/08/2007 07:19:06

Being brought up with exposure to different cultures helps develop insight and empathy when meeting others - it lends perspective - having two eyes helps measure distance, and maintain equilibrium. Those brought up in monocultures tend to assume inherent superiority or inferiority.

I have no doubt the BBC is being patronising - just think what we could have if £200 per Doric speaker was spent in promoting it. This is the total cost of the £20m new Gaelic TV channel on its own for well under a 100,000 Gaelic speakers, disregarding all the other money poured into promoting it.

Doric is very much the poor relation, but this is a move in the right direction.

10

Arthur,

31/08/2007 07:29:28

This article does not sit well with the Scotsmans policy
for this site of not posting in any language other than
English. I have had postings in the venacular withdrawn. Can't be having one rule for us and another for them.

11

CJO,

31/08/2007 07:34:35

#4 - ? You should put your own show on and see if anyone would buy it. Know yourself out, re-mortgage the house and get it on. You seem pretty positive that there is a huge audience out there just yearning to watch your brilliant new idea.

The victim within is peeping is revealing himself.

12

Montford's Jaicket,

Pegged out 31/08/2007 07:34:58

Aberdonians are "suspicious of change"? That'll be right; it's usually straight in the pocket, never to see the light of day again! :-)

Seriously, it's good to see Scottish comedy emanating from outside the Pacific (Quay) triangle - oh, and hopefully it will be a shade more amusing than some of previous Saturday noon "comedy" offerings which have been more toe-curling than rib-tickling.

13

Tweedmouth,

31/08/2007 07:35:57

The ghetto linguists live in such an unreal world. English is not 'one' language and there are dozens of dialects in England as well as in Scotland. Northumbrian and Cumbrian dialects share so many words and idioms with 'Scots' that is is quite obvious that there was a seamless transition across the Border. For example the adverb muckle is used in Yorkshire and Cumbria - any reading of North of England dialects reveals that all these dialects - incliding Lallans and Doric share more in common than they have in difference.

The nats and the 'ties of blood' natzis would have you think otherwise, but 'Scots', 'English', Northumbrians, Vikings, Anglo Saxons, Normans, Welsh and Brythonic Celts have all added their words, culture and genes to the cultural pot that is Britain. That is why English is the greatest and by far the richest language in the world - the first global language in fact. Use it and enjoy it - it doesn;t mean you have to value Doric, Lallans or Northumbrian less.

14

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 31/08/2007 07:37:03

Will they have subtitles or do they just want people to switch over straight away.

What is the point of this? Most of don't speak Doric, Gaellic or even Lallans.

It's fine for people to learn it and read and keep it alive but does it have to forced on the rest of us?

As I've said before I don't see people putting the same effort into ensuring Latin is still remembered and spoken and studied when at one point it was the lingua franca of the world. Even here.

15

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 07:38:38

Re JB2003 (#5) : "Speaking English is one of the reasons why us Scots can... work anywhere with anyone" yes, but one could say exactly the same thing about the Welsh, the Dutch and the Singaporese, none of whom are in a hurry to abandon any other languages they may also speak. One ought not to confuse speaking English with ONLY speaking English.

I write in here in SSE out of practicality because it seems the medium most likely to be understood. People who write in other varieties aren't "numpties" as long as they accept that fewer people will understand what they write. Personally I speak and write NE Doric in everyday domestic and social life, because to me SSE is a business language lacking in warmth and intimacy. It's all about using the form of language appropriate to one's situation.

I also think it's unfortunate that Scots is placed in the "colloquial" ghetto. I don't see why we can't have serious broadcasting in Scots alongside English, and if the suggestion is that this will stop us making our way in the world, I can't see any connection between those things at all.

Re #8: my earlier comments didn't refer to my own situation, so I really don't understand the nonsense about "determined to be oppressed".

Re #11: broadcasting is a service for which I pay dearly every year, and I feel entitled to ask for what I want in return. What does being a "victim" have to do with it?

16

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 31/08/2007 07:39:49

Won't all those Doric speakers be terriffied of the magic speaking box anyway?

17

1745,

Edinburgh 31/08/2007 07:42:26

#3
Oh how I agree with you.Let's have the Doric it is pleasant to the ear and preferable to that west coast whine

18

Act sensibly,

France 31/08/2007 07:44:23

Now you Glasgow and Edinburgh folks, there are other equally valid areas of Scotland. They shouldn't be ignored because you think your way's the best and don't understand the heritage of the rest of the country.

Gd for them, Doric should have a place in a modern inclusive Scotland. Why are central belt Scots so racist against Scotland's heritage and those practising it.

19

Bobo,

31/08/2007 07:52:08

Well said Colin Wilson and Kate of Switzerland. Glad to see you both tackling the agents of cultural cleansing that would have us all talking, acting and thinking the same.

20

Hambo,

31/08/2007 07:59:38

Perhaps the hostile posters on this thread should ask themselves why they are hostile to/feel threatened by(?) a single radio show in the NE dialect of Scots which they don't have to listen to and is a mere drop in the ocean of English language broadcasting.

21

Anne,

31/08/2007 08:01:28

Pleases to hear about this.
The retirement of the "Scotland The What" team was a loss to Scottish humour.
We never saw enough of them on television.
Still laugh at the mixing up of "the auld Turra' dominie" and the "Ayatollah Khomeini"!

22

JB2003,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 08:04:37

I'm from Aberdeen, I can understand and speak doric but why on Earth would you want to plow £20million into some nonsense tv station that nobody will watch?? I hated it as a kid when gaelic tv came on. It's a waste. I'd rather see a new school built than waste cash on broadcasting in dialects.

As for the Welsh, Dutch, Singaporese and Swiss, at least people actually speak those languages. Virtually nobody speaks old Scots or Gaelic (certainly nobody who doesn't also speak English) and as far as I'm concerned I see no value in plowing shedloads of cash into a largely fruitless endeavour. Like I said before, a smattering of dialect broadcasting is great - like Scotland the What? and the Desperate Fishwives, but lets not get persecutian complexes over language. I get sick of the "poor me blame the English" attitude that folks splash out all over this website.

23

Märiö äntoinette,

31/08/2007 08:09:48

Someone gave me a copy of "scotland the what" a few years bask , and I've never seen such cheaply made , "stop yer ticklin" jock" rubbish in my life.

Sorry , but it was awful. We're a modern nation, time to stop producing this rubbish.

24

Märiö äntoinette,

31/08/2007 08:11:20

"The jokes in these shows tend to take the form of laughing at ourselves, for example the Rab [C Nesbitt] stereotype, which is a knowing, self- deprecatory stance on working-class life."

Celebrating The Scottish Cringe. Bored with it.

25

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 31/08/2007 08:15:47

Every few minutes, the householder says to the visitor "Are you no comin' in?", to which the answer repeatedly is: "I'm nae comin' in! I'm nae comin' in!"

This is a joke?

26

Bobo,

31/08/2007 08:20:00

#22

The "poor me blame the English" attitude seems to be one of your own invention since there is no eveidence of it here in any of these postings. How exactly do you think the Welsh, Dutch, Singaporese and Swiss have kept their languages alive. By greetin about a tiny drop of public money being spent on supporting those languages or by speaking up and campaigning for their languages and dialects and by insisting that they and their cultures are treated with respect.

Whit a panic's in your breastie and about what? One programme for half an hour one day a week on Radio Scotland?

27

Plooble,

Arbroath 31/08/2007 08:25:00

#5 - Interesting use of the word 'we' in your post, as 'we' seems restricted in speaking only English in this world, with Scotland having one of the poorest second language rates (Scots doesn't seem to count).

I was brought up in a house that spoke Scots & still would not converse with my mother & sisters any other way. I think in Scots & doing so has made me better at English - possibly far better than those who can only speak standard (whatever that is?) English. It sounds like you would prefer us all to sound like BA flight crew saying things like 'holding pattin' or that weather locally is 'occassional shahs.'

I am sufficiently self-confident in my capabilites in English, not to seek to apologise for my ability to converse in an alternative fashion i.e. Scots (irrespective of whether one considers it a distinct language or dialect of English). I suspect the 'we' you are talking of are the central belt crowd who view Scots as either 'teuchter-speak' or not 'proper' & would only be happy when we are all sounding like Malcolm Rifkind, except on Burn's Nicht, of course!

28

AGT,

Leith 31/08/2007 08:26:46

To hear some Doric voices, visit www.scotslanguage.com and click on North East in the regional dialect section of the site.

29

Media 1,

cape town 31/08/2007 08:32:40

# Boy Wonder: GLASGOW produces the most comic genious, because of where it is situated.

Any city that has a fusion of different cultures will undoubtedly produce better comedy. Liverpool and Glasgow are examples of this, their Irish influence combined with the local humour serves up some memorable comedy. The people are naturally funnier, friendlier and better equipped to entertain.

Which is probably why Glasgow has produced most of Scotland's biggest bands and comedians, as has Liverpool in England.

There is no need to turn this into a war of cities. Both are Scottish cities and both are amazing in their own right. Glasgow is our first city, in terms of her size, her shopping, her nightlife, transport systems and music scene. Whereas Edinburgh is our glorious capital whose beauty is unsurpassed.

30

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 31/08/2007 08:34:56

"The original borders pre union shall be reinstated and Berwich on Tweed will obviously be 100% Scottish once more."

Getting ahead of yourself a tad there aren't you?

31

larsonsmum,

ABERDEENSHIRE 31/08/2007 08:35:05

Well Done the 'Flying Pigs' - as that is what this very talented group of performers are/were called, (What's happened to the name?)

Having witnessed their growth in popularity at every show from Day 1, I'm delighted to hear of this development, and shall be tuned in.

Long before forming their theatre company in 1996, they were nearly all heavily involved in several of Aberdeen's University's famed Student Shows, in fact the shows would have been nothing without them!

What's not mentioned here is the vast musical talent of many of them too + their very successful day jobs - lawyers, teachers, etc.................

'Scotland the What' flew the flag for the north-east in the comedy entertainment world, and justifiably so.

This multi-talented troup deserve to do the same - 'Ging for it loons and quins, we're a ahint ye!

32

Dumb Eye @,

31/08/2007 08:36:38

#14

There must be some wonderfully high tech equipment in Glasgow if it can show sub-titles for a radio programme.

33

JPF,

31/08/2007 08:38:20

why do people keep claiming scots is a 'language'?? Any sane individual can see it is a dialect, like the english spoken in the north-east of england for example.

I have shown passages in 'Scots' to English people, and even foreigners who speak English as a second language, and all can understand 90% of it. It clearly has no distinct structure of it's own, and is basically, at risk of offending people on here, English spoken with a Scottish accent. Why people insist on calling it a language is utterly beyond me. I understand that the EU have eventually recognised it as some sort of regional minority language, but really who are we kidding? No one has ever been taught it formally, and the few pamphlets/publications printed in it look completely ridiculous.

The English stopped talking like Shakespeare centuries ago, so why do we insist on trying to talk like Burns?

34

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 31/08/2007 08:41:03

#35 Best start running for cover now, they'll be foaming at the mouth after that.

35

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 08:41:58

Re JB2003 (#22) : "why on Earth would you want to plow £20million..." I haven't heard any figure mentioned, but that particular one wouldn't even be five pounds per head of population.

"...tv station that nobody will watch?? " And the basis for that assumption is?"

"I'd rather see a new school built than waste cash on broadcasting in dialects." There's no question of TV licence money being diverted into education.

"Virtually nobody speaks old Scots or Gaelic " Possibly, but a considerable number of people speak modern Scots, of which NE Doric is probably the most conspcuous example.

"I get sick of the "poor me blame the English" attitude". Not been expressed in this discussion, and mentioned only by JB2003.

36

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/08/2007 08:43:09

I always thought Doric was a perversion of Viking speak. For example "Ah'm gannin oot" in Doric is very similar to "Ah'm gannin oot" in Norwegian.

Kirk is the saem there as it is here and so on and so forth. Is it right to generalise it under this broad term "Scots"?

Very interesting indeed.

37

Bobo,

31/08/2007 08:45:22

#35

Ehrmmm, most Swedes would understand most Norwegians without translation and most Danes can easily read Norwegian and Swedish and probably make a good stab at reading Icelandic too. Irish speakers can understand a lot of Gaelic; Slovaks can manage in Czech and Finns can read a lot of Estonian. But my question is why, oh why, oh why do these people not just do the sensible thing and give up their own languages and speak English instead. The world would be a much better place. It would be even better if everyone had the same coloured hair too.

38

Arthur,

31/08/2007 08:49:23

Does JPF consider himself to be an etymological expert
if so I would offer no arguement, but since I suspect this is not the case I will for the present instruct him
to awa an bile his heid!

39

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 31/08/2007 08:50:10

#39 Actually most of them are speaking English.

Not at home mind but give it time, eventually we'll all be speaking a mix of Spanish, Chinese and English and nothing else will survive.

40

Arthur,

31/08/2007 08:52:46

heh Dave frae Barra hoos yer stoorsooker and huv ye
switched it tae blaw or sumpin.

41

'Hezza,

31/08/2007 08:52:54

#35 JPF: Doric was previously a separate language, but, you're right, it is probably more of a dialect now. As for its lack of a written or formal educational tradition, come on - there are probably more languages in the world that lack your criteria than have it. It doesn't stop them being genuine languages.

As for your 'insistance on talking like burns' chat....um, have you met any locals in Aberdeen? My granpa and grandma were in an old folks home there, and the old dears used to whitter away to each other in broad doric.

I suppose you'd like everyone to speak BBC English? I think you are kind of missing the point somewhat.

42

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 08:53:26

Re JPF (#35) : "why do people keep claiming scots is a 'language'?? Any sane individual can see it is a dialect" unfortunately, like so many other issues, this one tends to get bogged down in fruitless quibbling over the use of terms and labels.

The way we use these terms is largely arbitrary. The same observation that JPF makes about Scots v English could also be made about Czech v Slovak, Norwegian v Swedish v Danish, Bulgarian v Macedonian, Gàidhlig v Gaeilge, and lots more. Linguistic classification really tells us very little about the status we ought to give to a particular form of language.

If we want to hear the news in Scots, it's entirely up to us.

43

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/08/2007 08:57:34

Dinnae ken Arthur but I'm chavin awa on the yird.

Hoo the yirdie tams whaur ye at?

44

JPF,

31/08/2007 09:01:09

39 - Bobo. I am as much of a nationalist as anyone on here, and live in the most multicultural country in europe. I hate the way English is taking over as some kind of global language, and am all for countries keeping their national languages.

However, that does not change the fact that Scots is essentially a mispronunciation of English words. To take the example above, "Ah'm gannin oot" is in common usage as far south as Middlesbrough, but I don't hear anyone telling me they speak 'Scots' down there.

Yes, Doric words are in use throughout the Grampian region, but people are speaking English, with some words from the Doric dialect inserted - not some separate language. It is identical in structure to English, but with words pronounced in a way akin to an Oor Wullie story in the Sunday Post.

As I stated earlier - I have shown passages to 'foreigners' - swedes, chinese and others, and they can understand 90% of it.

45

MacLeod,

31/08/2007 09:04:59

The flying pigs were half-time entertainment at a function I attended some months ago and they were easily the highlight of the evening.

The parallels with Scotland the What were obvious and I now see why.

Best of luck to them!

46

just,

31/08/2007 09:06:43

#4- take it you never saw the documentary about the trawler men then?
in doric and it was far from comedy.

or the documentary about the demise of the fishing industry in peterhead..

or Roisin from river city.

OK so there is not that much doric on TV...but in the bigger picture there aren't ower mony spikers o the doric twang compared to the general population. add to that that half the population of Scotland don't understand it , let alone folk from elsewhere.

and when was the last time you saw something made in newcastle that wasn't either comedy, about drink or a 'gritty northern drama'?..so its no just the NE of Scotland that gets it tight.

I second the idea that you should put your idea where your mortgage is and show us what you've got.

47

JPF,

31/08/2007 09:08:55

39 - Bobo. I am as much of a nationalist as anyone on here, and live in the most multicultural country in europe. I hate the way English is taking over as some kind of global language, and am all for countries keeping their national languages.

However, that does not change the fact that Scots is essentially a mispronunciation of English words. To take the example above, "Ah'm gannin oot" is in common usage as far south as Middlesbrough, but I don't hear anyone telling me they speak 'Scots' down there.

Yes, Doric words are in use throughout the Grampian region, but people are speaking English, with some words from the Doric dialect inserted - not some separate language. It is identical in structure to English, but with words pronounced in a way akin to an Oor Wullie story in the Sunday Post.

As I stated earlier - I have shown passages to 'foreigners' - swedes, chinese and others, and they can understand 90% of it.

48

Märiö äntoinette,

31/08/2007 09:10:11

Leaving aside those who want to claim their little local accents as languages.. Has anyone noticed how class based scottish comedy is ? Its something even the English have largely left behind a long time ago. It's all about making fun of the chavs , of making fun of those who cannae talk properly , of making fun of working class areas.

49

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 09:12:42

Re JPF (#46) : "Scots is essentially a mispronunciation of English words."

A pronunciation that a large number of people use regularly and consistently among themselves, is not a mispronunciation of anything.

"It is identical in structure to English".

It isn't. E.g. "thon's the fowk that A bocht their hoose" is a sensible statement, but "those is the people that I bought their house" is nonsense.

For anyone who's interested, there are textbooks that explain all this stuff.

50

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 09:16:00

#13

Although I appreciate what you're saying (that there are no strict divisions between language groups) there are enough differences in languages to allow us to classify them as languages in their own right.

In the case of Scots, it shares much in common with English but, linguistically speaking, it is a language in its own right and should be recognised as such.

Part of the problem with Scots is that much of the vocabulary has fallen out of use because it was progressively and often deliberately eliminated from our culture through various means (in schools, institutions, media, etc.).

But there are also phonetic differences which seperate Scots entirely from northern English dialects. Plus, there is also a strong Gaelic influence in Scots which is now recognised as being much stronger than previously thought. This doesn't apply to northern English dialects. As Dave from Barra points out, there is also a prevalence of Nordic words in Scots that doesn't exist in English dialects.

The ONLY reason we do not collectively recognise Scots as an official language is because our governments have never allowed it to be recognised as such (because they have refused to give it that status). But any linguist will tell you it's a language, simple as that.

This is something that JPF etc don't understand. The only difference between Scots and English or Italian or French is that English, Italian and French have received official approval from their governments while Scots, for obvious political reasons, has not.

Our governments have tried, successfully, to reduce the measure of difference between Scotland and England in order to implement a superficial sense of cultural unity between the two nations which doesn't exist and never has.

Language has been an important part of this stategy of Scotland's absorption into English culture. It almost succeeded but not quite. We should ensure that it is never allowed to succeed. With Scot

51

Plooble,

Arbroath 31/08/2007 09:22:13

Thon's the hing. There's ay ane wha has tae gang an haud up this auld trachelt story aboot whither Scots is a tongue o its ain or no.

Masel, I bide awa fae thon row, an am swiert ane way or th'ither tae get taen in wi'd, an hae a go at defending aither side o sic a spear.

Whit coonts i'th' end is can fowk converse weel wi ane anither or no. Dae fowk fae the same toon tak guid fae speakin sc a way wi their freens or no?
Dae fowk fae ootside like tae hear the auld way o speakin?

Of coorse, it's a michty sicht easier tae say a this than it is tae scrieve or read as wir skailin didnae tak ony accoont o Scots.

52

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 09:28:33

JPF,

Don't mean to offend, but I'm afraid you don't understand languages. There are parts of Italy where the dialects are closer to French than Italian in many respects, but they are still Italian dialects.

And, then, take Italian and Spanish. An Italian can understand written Italian easily, and vice versa, while the same is true in the context of those languages when they are spoken.

More than this, an Italian can understand Spanish better than most English would understand broad Scots.

Italian and Spanish share so much in common that, if you're saying English and Scots are the same thing, then you'll have to apply the same to Italian and Spanish.

This is only one example of many.

Now, the problem with Scots, in addition to the fact it has never been given official recognition during our union with England, is that (because of that) it has never been standardised in the same way English has. It has never been organised into a standard version like English, with standard spellings, pronunciations, vocabulary etc.

Standard English is based not on Yorkshire or Liverpudlian dialects, as you know, but on .... what?

It is based on the way that English was spoken by THOSE IN POWER. In other words, standard English is based on the way that English is spoken by the Royal family and aristocracy who were, when English was standardised, the ones in power who had the privilege of using their dialect of English as the national standard for the whole of England.

At certain points in history, Scots was the official language of Scotland (as it was used by those in power). But as those people in power in Scotland began to lose it because of England's influenc,e so Scots was never standardised in the same way.

It's all very interesting stuff, and very complex. Langauges are not distinct in practice but only seem so when they are standardised. Languages overlap and integrate and exchange words and phrases and other such t

53

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 09:29:02

I mean an Italian can understand written Spanish! obviously.

54

Nìall,

Edinburgh 31/08/2007 09:29:54

JPF (#46): "However, that does not change the fact that Scots is essentially a mispronunciation of English words."

You've never heard of The Great Vowel Shift, then. Put simply, several hundred years ago, pronunciation changed in the south of England and this change moved rapidly northwards, but stalled a small distance north of the Humber. If anyone's mispronouncing their words, it's the English.

As a teacher of English as a foreign language, I'm rapidly discovering how different Scots and SSE are from "Standard" (ie English) English.

Take for example "It needs fixing" vs "It needs fixed". As native speakers we can understand both as equivalent, even if we've just heard one of them for the first time, but a learner doesn't understand anything they've been taught, so it's difficult for them to understand Scottish people.

If Scots, in all it's diversity, was properly taught and used in Scotland, we would be able to teach Standard English as a second language.

I'm of the opinion that all Scottish schoolchildren should be at least tri-lingual by P7: in English, Scots and Gaelic. It won't happen for twenty years or so, but it could happen.

55

larsonsmum,

ABERDEENSHIRE 31/08/2007 09:30:25

#47 and I (#33) seem to be the only ones 'speaking the same language' (pardon the pun)and not taking this story way too far in a completely unintended direction. Who thinks their postings are relevent?

56

Nìall,

Edinburgh 31/08/2007 09:38:43

Further reading:

Published by Birlinn Ltd:
The "Dash o' Doric" series

Published by the Saltire Society
Why Scots Matters, J. Derrick McClure
A Scots Grammar, David Purves

Published by Polygon/Edinburgh Uni. Press
The Grammar Broonie, Susan Rennie & Barbara Robertson

And of course, the Dictionar o the Scots Leid is on-line at
www.dsl.ac.uk

57

Boy Wonder,

31/08/2007 09:45:56

31. Media 1, cape town.

Glasgow is our first city????? You'll originally huv been a Weegie then? Cos it's only that lot think like that about it.

As we say here in the east ... away an' cuddle mah humph!!!

Edinburgh is the First City and has been so for CENTURIES before Glasgow was even a wee cluster o huts roond the Clyde!

As for comparisons between the two in modern times ... you've obviously lost touch with reality, with being in South Africa for so long.

58

iainruadh,

Cloven 31/08/2007 09:49:42

Strange how a relatively innocuous article raises a stream of self loathing and self deprecation from the, presumably, Unionist lobby. What is called "Doric" itself a pejorative term is simply a dialect of Scots and not radically different from other Scots dialects eg "fit, far and fa" instead of the souther dialects "whit, whaur and wha", the na negative verbal ending instead of nae etc. Apart from the creinge factor, the insularity of the RP brigade is sad.

Would they argie that Dutch and Flemish are just dialects of German and should be eradicated, or Norwegian a dielect of Swedish when Scots and RP English bear the same relationship. Or would they accept that English itself is basically a dialect of German with an extensive French vocabulary.

Interstingly, when the Nazis were considering developing a simplified form of pidgin German for the occupied countries, they realised that there already was one - aye English.

I was brought up in a Scots speaking community with a smattering of Gaelic from the other half of the family and spent most of my school life being regualry belted for "persistent use of slang" by English supremicist teachers. In reality, my natural multilingualism made it much easier for me to learn and use other languages.

The snobbishness of the English supremicist wannabees is based on a deeply entrenched inferiority complex and would be pathetic were it not for the massive damage that their narrow-mindedness has inflicted on generations of Scots and Gaelic speakers and on our cultural identity.

The Gaelic proverb "Tir gun canan, tir gun anam" - "a country without a language is a country without a soul" says it all.

59

Brebsy,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 09:50:24

As one of the writers of the show, can I just wade in here to say I am enjoying the debate this story has sparked? Speaking personally, whatever one says about the merits or otherwise of Doric as a language / dialect / whatever you wish to call it, I have always found it has an expressive quality and a natural humour, and I've consistantly found it makes lines 'funnier' than the same ones written in English...

60

JPF,

31/08/2007 09:52:07

59 - good to see that the eternally parochial scots are still able to turn a thread about language into a 'My-town-is better-then-yours' thread.

Pathetic.

61

Yane,

31/08/2007 10:00:54

#50 Yev gotta be jokin Mario — I can't think of an English comedy show that doesn't have some class based humour. I reckon it's world wide, well in everything I've seen, can't claim to have seen comedies from every country.
The only time I've ever seen subtitles for something Scottish was in the movie Sweet Sixteen & that was cos of the broad accents the characters had, not cos of the words they used.
#53 That was great!

62

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/08/2007 10:04:42

Yane

They used subtitles for that TV program they filmed about the North East fishermen not so long ago (same difference I guess for you).

They also put subtitles on Trainspotting, even for the Scottish audience (remember to "club" scene?) same difference again, I guess.

I've seen subtitles for Dotaman though....

63

JB2003,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 10:04:46

Here 'we' go then

22 - the poor me blame the English attitude is demonstrated almost every day whenever an SNP/Labour article is published and surfaces constantly. The post I was replying to hinted that the aglofication of the way we Scots speak is a crime and hence in my opinion it falls into that category. I read these comments every week day so I'm afraid I do know what I'm talking about on this although i'll admit it's not greatly prevalent on this article.

27 - I was talking about the Scottish nation. I am Scottish too, hence I use the word 'we'. If you read the other posts, you'd see I'm an Aberdonian and a Scotsman and perfectly qualified to talk about doric, not that you need to be qualified anyway as 'we' all have an opinion.

37 - no. 9 mentioned £20m. Read other people's posts, not just your own. In terms of viewing figures for a Gaelic tv station then, unless you've done detailed market research and can prove the contrary, my opinion is as good as anyones and I don't know anyone who would set their video for it. Re: the doric point, are you now saying you want a doric language tv channel?? And last point is answered above.

64

JB2003,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 10:06:10

*anglofication

65

Yane,

31/08/2007 10:10:06

#65 Trainspotting - in the movie? I don't remember that. Saw the play here in Melb. No translations needed for the audience here!

66

Media 1,

cape town 31/08/2007 10:12:04

#59 Boywonder:

Not at all. I am proud of Edinburgh. Not many cities can boast the beauty that our city has.

From Stockbridge up to Queens Street and beyond to George Street, Rose Street and Princes Street. From our West End to Calton Hill and then up our mound to our castle and the Royal Mile. From Holyrood up Arthur's seat there is just an abundance of beauty and I for one am proud to say I am from Edinburgh. Our tours of the castle, holyrood and all the other glorious places people can visit are second to none. Our festival is the largest arts festival on the planet, we are a top European city. But we are NOT Scotland's first city, just as Canberra is NOT Australia's first city.

Glasgow is a big city mate. Their shipping history is world renowned, their transport system is larger both above and under ground, their music, nightlife and restaurant experiences are 2nd to none in Scotland. Their football teams are famous the world over, their friendliness is astonishing, their Charles Rennie Macintosh architecture is sublime, their art gallery is one of the most exquisite I have ever seen, their west end is hip and trendy, their university building is WOW! And the grounds surrounding it are spectacular. A Capital city like ours has the beauty and the parliament, a first city needs the transport systems, the busses, the taxi's, the subway and the major train stations. It needs an abundance of clubs, both dance, trance, 80's and everything else. It needs shopping and restaurants and they have all that.

So whilst I am proud to be an Edinburgh lad and pleased that my city is the capital of Scotland, I am equally proud to say that I am Scottish and pleased that Glasgow is our first city.

67

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/08/2007 10:13:19

Yane

Aye, especially the film version for outside the UK English speaking market. Trust me, was taken aback myself!

How do you subtitle a play?

68

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 10:18:11

Re JB2003 (#66) : even when it's implied that something is a crime, that isn't the same as blaming the English for it.

The idea of a separate Scots-language channel hasn't been suggested, so the comparison with Gaelic and the cost of a Gaelic channel doesn't really apply. Personally I wouldn't expect a Scots-language or NE Doric channel. A worthwhile beginning would be a specific Scots-language *service* that was carried at particular times of day, just as e.g. in the late 80s and early 90s the Gaelic programmes were on Radio Scotland, on VHF only, between 18:10 and 19:30. Although I wouldn't expect a specific service for NE Doric, I'd expect its speakers to have a signifcant role in delivering the general Scots-language service.

69

Yane,

31/08/2007 10:18:53

#70 In opera they do. I think it's "surtitles". (I'm sure someone will correct me if ahm wrang!) On screen above the singers.

70

JB2003,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 10:27:40

71 - you're talking about the anglofication of our language. A reader taking an objective opinion would read your comments as a barbed comment about anglofication of Scotland, which is pretty much blaming the English.

I didn't actually specify what type of tv station but my comment was really a response to no.9. Frankly I like our tv the way it is with the odd good Scots programme every now and again. I think any form of scottish dialect or gaelic service would be a waste of resources. Why don't we use that cash to teach our kids useful languages like French, Mandarin, Russian, Japanese or American.

71

Riley Hamish,

EDINBURGH 31/08/2007 10:30:49

As a central-belter, I came late tae the appreciation o' "Scotland The What?"
WONDERFUL......ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL !!!

.........will we ever see their likes again????

72

Zakk,

Abredeen 31/08/2007 10:36:31

Reminds me of the time I went into a green grocers and asked for a green pepper only to be informed that the newsagents was next door.

73

Yane,

31/08/2007 10:40:15

#73 I don't know what to say JB2003. You honestly see no benefit in promoting your own dialects & languages? Besides, this thread began cos of an article about comedy. Kids, like everyone else, need a break from havin their heads stuffed with "useful" stuff don't you think?

74

MacLeod,

31/08/2007 10:43:06

69. Well said! And lets not forget that Perth was actually our first first city. It's just a question of time.
:-)

75

JB2003,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 10:48:04

76 - No, I don't see a benefit in funding a channel which in my opinion nobody will watch.

Not sure what your point is about the "useful" stuff but I take it that you wouldn't put anything useful on a Scots language and dialect channel. I would rather our kids learnt more languages as I certainly feel limited by it now and wish schools followed the continent and far east by teching foreign languages from an earlier age; i'd certainly rather that.

76

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 10:50:47

Re JB2003 (#73) : that wouldn't be an objective opinion, but an invention. English people in general have no great interest in what goes on in Scotland, nor is there any great reason why they ought to have. Events here are the responsibility of our own leaders and, ultimately, us.

As I've mentioned before, there's no question of TV licence money being diverted into education. The question is simply over what programmes will be made. If JB2003 doesn't want programmes in Scots, that's an opinion to which s/he's entitled, although naturally I'd prefer the broadcasters to give precedence to the opinions of people who live in Scotland and pay the TV licence here.

77

Rob - Honest Toun,

31/08/2007 10:53:31

It wisnae the English. It wis the Liberals!
The Liberal government's Scottish Education Act o 1872 threapit that frae then on, the only language alloued tae be spoken in aw Scottish schuils wis tae be the English language.

They cuid hiv went for bi-lingualism but they chose linguistic cleansin insteid.

78

,

31/08/2007 10:56:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 923524, Article id was mapped to record!
79

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/08/2007 10:57:02

Yane @72

Oh right! Thanks for that, I learned something new!

In the words of our last greatest bard - Rab C Nesbit "Aw ra best big man!"

80

JB2003,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 10:57:11

Calm down Colin, there's no need to get upset.

I didn't say anything about English people, I said anglofication and I talked about an anti-English attitude. I know that the English don't care what's on tv in Scotland and I know that there isn't a tv conspiracy against us; in fact the English are more worried about the over-representation of Scots in UK and English programming.

On the tv channel front, again referring to no. 9, he talked about £200 per doric speaker. He didn't mention how to fund it. Lastly, just because I'm in HK doesn't mean I don't live in Blighty, pay my tv licence or have an opinion worth noting. I note your opinion and I disagree with it. Life goes on....

81

Yane,

31/08/2007 11:03:21

#78 Och I'm no gonna get into a debate about telly channels. I agree with you about learning more languages. I really wish that had happened here too. But Gaelic is also a language (as you know). Very amazing & difficult it is. Alas, my dad only taught me disgusting phrases & obscenities in it! I said to my mum once — there's something inherently funny about the Scottish accent & she said — doent yoo be so bloody cheeky!

82

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 11:10:32

Re "Calm down Colin, there's no need to get upset."

I thought I was just having an interesting and straight-talking discussion, on an interesting and important subject. I'm surprised I gave anyone the impression I was upset.

83

John McVey,

Thailand 31/08/2007 11:19:15

Ye ken we talk funny?
Aye?
Well whit aboot we pit oan a TV show n' talk the same wuy only mair dafter - that wid be dead funny!
But we kin hear that type o' talk in places like the local supermarket so whyz it funny?
Cos its own the telly dafty!
Oh aye ... BRAIN DEAD!

84

Yane,

31/08/2007 11:25:04

#86 Och I wasn't trying to be offensive — I had #61's comment about a natural humour in my mind when I wrote that.

85

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 31/08/2007 11:34:33

Alex Salmond understands us. Nicola too.

Because they know the reality of standing on the deck of a Peterhead trawler.

Alot of things we don't find very funny; in fact 99% of fatuous pronouncements from the British Governent, Ben Bradshaw in obnoxiousness, and eco-facists in general.

Rabbie Shepherd is OK but spare us any more of the ultra-couthie.

86

Hambo,

31/08/2007 11:38:00

Hostility is normally a response to a threat, so what is the threat of a half hour radio show in Scots as reported in this article?
It isn't the show itself since it's easy to not listen to it. What is is about Scottish culture that Scots are are hostile to it and why?
A person liberated from hostility to/a fear of their own culture is a dangerous thing for they will go on to liberate their country.

87

Calum Crubag,

31/08/2007 11:50:47

#5 - so folk in Hong Kong can't speak their own language AND English. We Scots should be proud if we can speak English, keep Gaelic and maintain the other dialects.

88

Vincent W,

Edinburgh 31/08/2007 11:57:42

If I can understand it then no doubt it will make me laugh, if I can't then it won't - not very complex is it!

Put it on the box - see what the audience response is - and if it's success good on you!

All this knicker twisting over loanguage is really very very sad. Having travelled over all of Britain I find each area proud of their differences and rightly so, but for crying out loud there are more important issues. 89 posts on whether doric is a language or not and elsewhere there are less than a dozen posts on really important issues

89

Memyself&I,

31/08/2007 12:03:25

Why bother.

90

Vincent W,

Edinburgh 31/08/2007 12:04:33

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

91

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 12:15:28

#8 Duncan - "Ha! You are so determined to be oppressed that you fail to notice that no-one is actually oppressing you. This is truly the saddest form of the Scottish cringe."

One country eradicating another country's linguistic heritage is an act of oppression which we are entitled to complain about, cringe about and do something about, like many people, but not you, are doing now.

You are an apologist for a country who never had the right to interfere with Scottish culture or politics to the extent that they have. They tried oppression by force and got beat. So they tried oppression by other means that have to a large extent succeeded. You are proof of the fact that they have to a large extent succeeded.

But, given your obvious loathing for Scotland (including its marvellous linguistic particularity), I suspect you couldn't care less. This appears to be something of a characteristic among many unionists who seem to actually take a perverse pleasure in ridiculing Scottish things, like the language for instance.

I don't know of any other country where a large section of the population are given so readily to devaluing the culture of their own country.

92

Vincent W,

Edinburgh 31/08/2007 12:28:00

#94 zoom - honestly you are so far up your own rear end it's scary. There are dialects and accents across the whole of the UK (even in Englandshire!!!!!) which have been subsumed by standard english. It's not an anti scotch thing - it's just as people travel more (as clearly you haven't) language tends to become more standardised.

Do you think that all the famous Scots who made their name worldwide would have got very far speaking Gaelic? For centuries people have tried to standardise languages to promote understanding - that's why for centuries latin was the vehicle.

Jeezie peeps - talk about chips on shoulders!!!!!

93

Nìall,

31/08/2007 12:44:55

"One country eradicating another country's linguistic heritage is an act of oppression which we are entitled to complain about"

It was not "them" them, it was "us" them. The great minds of the Scottish Enlightenment somehow decided that Scots was bad English (and Gaelic was just plain bad) and given that these people ran the unis, our education became institutionally biased to a foreign language.

Scotland created the myth of linguistic unity -- you can't blame the English for believing us. (After all, monolingualism significantly dulls the linguistic faculties!)

We were the problem, we must be the solution.

First step: the news on the telly.
Two small changes that would make all the difference:
1) Stop saying "Scoddish" and start using the glottal stop ("Sco'ish"). That's how we pronounce "Scottish" here.
2) Pronounce your R's. It's "Falkirk", not "Falkeuuk".

94

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 12:51:16

#95
You don't know what you're talking about, on several counts, which is why you're the one with your head where the sun don't shine.

1) I've been travelling and living abroad for the past ten years. You say that as people travel more language becomes standardised. WHat the hell is that mean tot mean? Nothing, as far as I can tell. It's gibberish.

2) Scots is a language, not a dialect, that has, to some extent, been subsumed by standard english. In this sense, it differs immensely to the eradication of regional English dialects by a national standard English language.

3) You clearly know nothing about history, let alone linguistic history. If you did, you would know that Scots has been discouraged and deliberately eradicated in a variety of ways and on a variety of levels.

4) For centuries, people (not people, actually, but PEOPLE IN POWER) have tried to standardise languages. And failed. Now we realise that they were wrong to do so because it means the disappearance of one of the most prized cultural assets of any country, region or geographic area in the world. And, yes, you should also note that these attempts have largely failed, except in France, given that dialects are spoken just about everywhere you care to go in any country.

Plus, Latin was the language of the rich, aristocratic or educated classes who were always a huge minority. Your average Joe didn't speak Latin, just like your average Joe doesn't speak any "standard" form of any language today.

5) You're trying to tell me that Alexander Flemming wouldn't be famous for discovering penicillin if he'd been a Gaelic speaker. What kind of dumbass rubbish is that? Since when has language prevented people from becoming famous for the famous things they do?

Jesus, Vincent. I'm afraid you go into the "apologist/I don't know what I'm talking about" category with immediate effect.

95

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 13:13:23

#96

That's the classic apologist reflex - blame Scots for Scotland's ills and forget the fact that England spent a lot of time and effort interfering with our business.

How is it you think that "enlightened" Scots came to the conclusion that Scots/Gaelic = bad, English = good. It's because the English said so, told them so, and forced us to think so.

English was associated with civilised, enlightened, while Scots/Gaelic was associated with barbaric and backward. Why is it that Scots themselves began to see it that way? All on their own? No.

Such a thing wouldn't have happened without the influence and coersion of England. To say so is simply hiding a truth. It is PC nonsense to try and revise the history of England's negative influence on Scotland.

It really bugs me that people are trying to exonerate historical England because they are scared that, by pointing out the things that England actually did, they will be perceived as racist or some stupid thing.

England has had a terrible influence on Scottish culture. That's a fact. That's why Gaelic is an almost extinct language. That's why we're not writing these posts in Scots. Scots didn't destroy their own languages by themselves. I would go as far as to suggest that it would be humanly impossibile for a country to destroy its own language.

For me, England's negative effect is pretty much irrelvant today given that, as you say, we're in a position to take matters into our own hands.
But what happend happend the way it did and trying to say otherwise is sugar-coating history in political correctness.

But England shouldn't necessarily be singled out as the bad guy in all this. It was one bad guy among many (the Russians, French, Germans, Belgiums, Spanish etc all engaged in similar stuff. Scotland would have done the same against England if we were the ones with the massively bigger population. It was the way of the world in those days. But not now).<

96

Not A Unionist or Nationalist,

Dundee 31/08/2007 13:29:26

I don't know why people liked "Scotland The What?" - completely unfunny turgid crap.

97

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/08/2007 13:30:21

Tell me. Name one one famous Scots who influenced the world who spoke Gaelic as his/her only native tongue?

98

Pilrig.,

Livingston 31/08/2007 13:42:47

Viva North Britain !

99

Pilrig.,

Livingston 31/08/2007 13:48:51

We should be able to speak our everyday speech without some teaching/ white collared f@nny telling us it's worthless. I write in English and speak in Lowland Scots. Yet the latter for many of our social and educational masters is nothing more than slang. For example a couple of years ago, a witness at a sheriff court trail answered with 'aye' rather than 'yes'. and the retard of a sheriff pulled him up for it !
Who appoints these clowns ?

100

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 13:50:11

#100

James Macpherson, who wrote the notorious poems of "Ossian" which were tremendously influential throughout Europe of the 18th an 19th century. Napoleon used to carry a volume of the Ossian poems around with him for inspirition, for example, while their influence on the Romantic period is immense.

All rather fascinating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Macpherson

MacPherson was probably the most famous literary figure of his day and is now unfairly denigrated for having fabricated the "translation" of the Ossian poems from original poems which never actually existed. Read the entry above for more. This was actually a clever ploy which has been used in various ways by many authors to give their work a sense of credibility which fiction, by its very nature, doesn't have.

Other more celebrated Scottish writers like Walter Scott, James Hogg and RL Stevenson did a similar thing by writing "fake" documentary passages in their novels to give them an additional sense of realism.

St Columba is another famous Gaelic speaker. As was the first prime minister of Cananda who's name I forget. Sorley Maclean, one of the greatest poets in any language of the 20th century.

Gaelic speakers. All famous. There are probably many more, and certainly more from Ireland.

Given the relatively small amount of Gaelic speakers who have existed both in the past and present, the ratio of famous Gaelic speakers is very high.

101

Märiö äntoinette,

31/08/2007 13:50:43

TO go back to the article I'd just like to agree with 99, it was freaking awful. And this doesnt look much better. I hope it only gets shown on BBC Aberdeen , if there is such a thing. I don't want it on my screen.

102

Pilrig.,

Livingston 31/08/2007 13:52:00

91- why the **** are you posting on this threid if there are what you regard as more important matters on other threids ?

103

Media 1,

cape town 31/08/2007 13:52:28

Speaking about Scottish enlightenment, look no further than Hume.

The man was a genius, and he understood and accepted the strength and benefit of the union.

One Scotland, One England, One Union!

Proud to be Scottish, Proud to be British

104

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 13:56:23

#100

And, of course, one of the most internationally famous Scottish bands around today are Capercaillie, who are Gaelic speakers singing songs in Gaelic.

In actual fact, they are one of the most successful bands specialising in traditional music that the UK and Ireland has ever produced.

105

VincentW,

Home 31/08/2007 13:56:29

Gosh - zoom you do get cross. When I've got time I'll agree with the sensible bits. But as Barra Dave wrote 'Name one one famous Scots who influenced the world who spoke Gaelic as his/her only native tongue?
Certainly Flmming (sic or is that the gaelic spelling?) didn't.

Latin was used by medics and scientists for years so that they could understand each other

106

VincentW,

Home 31/08/2007 13:58:37

sorry Flemming!

107

Pilrig.,

Livingston 31/08/2007 13:58:56

106 Media - Hume wasn't proud to be Scottish, in fact he regarded his national language and culture as something of an embarrassment

108

Twister,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 14:04:19

Having watched the Pigs for years, I can say that they have gone from strength to strength and deserve very much the interest in their material from outside Aberdeen. If it's not your thing, don't tune in! Oh, and "Mario Antoinette" - it's a radio show. So no, it won't have subtitles or be "on your screen" so you can rest easy. Try reading the article first...

109

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 31/08/2007 14:10:21

I don't have a problem with Scots. It's my main language for speaking and writing in. Or French. As a rough figure I'd say 5 words of Scots express far more than 8 works of English. So it's my preferred language in the dynamic world of shipbuilding. I have absolutely no problems communcating with Koreans.

I can speak Gaelic and Finnish too but not very well.

Is there a problem with Alex Salmond's politeness and civility? For he can address a meeting of Peterhead fishermen and dock workers, or a meeting of City of London financiers and make his points clear in the language spoken. We see no need for Scots to be spoken in the Palace of Westminster. But at home we do.

110

Twister,

Aberdeen 31/08/2007 14:13:50

Having watched the Pigs for years, I can say that they have gone from strength to strength and deserve very much the interest in their material from outside Aberdeen. If it's not your thing, don't tune in! Oh, and "Mario Antoinette" - it's a radio show. So no, it won't have subtitles or be "on your screen" so you can rest easy. Try reading the article first...

111

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 14:19:44

#108
Gosh, I do, don't I?

Here's a tip, Vincent, about using internet notice boards. Look at stuff that people post before posting some smug remark like

"But as Barra Dave wrote 'Name one one famous Scots who influenced the world who spoke Gaelic as his/her only native tongue?"

or

"Latin was used by medics and scientists for years so that they could understand each other"

You mean, medics and scientists like the ones who were part of the educated classes I referred to above?

Latin was useful and has now been replaced by English as the international language. The fact that English is the international language doesn't mean that all other languages must die.

112

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 14:32:40

#106 and #110

David Hume wrote:

"I am apt to suspect the negroes and in general all the other species of men (for there are four or five different kinds) to be naturally inferior to the whites. There never was a civilized nation of any other complexion than white, nor even any individual eminent either in action or speculation. No ingenious manufactures amongst them, no arts, no sciences. On the other hand, the most rude and barbarous of the whites, such as the ancient Germans, the present Tartars, have still something eminent about them, in their valour, form of government, or some other particular. Such a uniform and constant difference could not happen, in so many countries and ages, if nature had not made an original distinction betwixt these breeds of men. Not to mention our colonies, there are Negroe slaves dispersed all over Europe, of which none ever discovered any symptoms of ingenuity; tho' low people, without education, will start up amongst us, and distinguish themselves in every profession. In Jamaica indeed they talk of one negroe as a man of parts and learning; but ‘tis likely he is admired for very slender accomplishments, like a parrot, who speaks a few words plainly."


Spoken like a true unionist.

113

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 31/08/2007 14:38:42

-- Barra Dave wrote "Name one one famous Scots who influenced the world who spoke Gaelic as his/her only native tongue?"

This is a hard one to call. Goethe writing in a minority dialect called German gave the sudden insight to Nikola Tesla to create the alternating motor and our 240V system that's powers this board.

Surely there is only one native tongue as you were born? Our international language of scientific american english is rarely spoken in the UK. Or read. The common dialect is East-Enders slang which is the language of criminals. All slang is.

114

Boy Wonder,

31/08/2007 14:45:11

#69 & #106. You can bang on about Glasgow as long as you want ... far as I'M concerned ... that's only your opinion ... so it doesn't count!

As for Hume ... the man was an out and out blackguard! Him and his "friend" Adam bloody Smith! Pair of self-seeking wannabes, who wrote as English appeasers!! If there's a Hell, they're both there!

115

VincentW,

Hame 31/08/2007 15:07:01

Zoomie

1) You will find across Britain that local accents, dialects, languages and words are dying out. I came up from Englandshire many moons ago and words that were common parlance have not been passed to my kids an dwhen I got back to my roots I find those kids don't use them either. We naturally tend to conform to a single type to aid understanding. Not gibberish - fact!

2)"Scots is a language, not a dialect" - I can't argue because I don't really know the definition of a language vs dialect but I do know talking to older scots that words and phrases common 40 years ago are no longer understood by their grandwains. The language is changing - it's a living culture. And as a minority culture it will always lose out when the minority want to be understood by others.

3) All languages and dialects were discouraged - that was the received wisdom of the day. Revisionist historians are aplenty amongst nationalists. As travel became easier then it would be natural to try and ensure all peoples understood each other. Also the leaders/powerful would naturally prefer their language to be dominant - thant's life.

4) "For centuries, people (not people, actually, but PEOPLE IN POWER) have tried to standardise languages. And failed." Oh right so that's why English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world and that nowadays nearly all the people of Britain can understand each other when 200 years ago they couldn't!

"Plus, Latin was the language of the rich, aristocratic or educated classes who were always a huge minority. Your average Joe didn't speak Latin, just like your average Joe doesn't speak any "standard" form of any language today." your average Joe didn't need to understand latin as he didn't travel much and spent most of his life in one village doing one job. Learned people quickly realised that to spread ideas they needed to communicate across the world.

5) "You're try

116

Media 1,

cape town 31/08/2007 15:11:58

#115 Zoom2

I guess it depends on what you base his words.

For instance, it is no secret that white men cant jump, and to say as such is hardly racist. White men cant dance either, nor can they run very fast.

Would it then be racist to suggest that Black men cant invent? Is it racist to say that the Scots are tight or the Americans obnoxious and loud?

I guess we need to ask ourselves a few questions about the world we live in.

117

VincentW,

Hame 31/08/2007 15:25:43

Zoomie et al

The basic fact is I've come to Scotland by choice. I love the place, I love the culture, I do as much as I am able (and a damn sight more than most Scots) to keep the culture alive through music song and dance, I try hard to understand the language - Burns, Doric etc, I never dissaude my kids from talking in dialect and generally try hard not to offend.

But what hacks me off of is the nutters who harp on and on about history and how the English did that opr are doing this. Mainly because I am not responsible and a lot of it is contrived, revisionist and false.

The rise in English nationalism is largely the result of pedants like you who instead of celebrating culture continue to witter on and on about how badly done to you are. STOP COMPLAINING AND CELEBRATE -THEN PEOPLE WILL LISTEN AND FOLLOW. Continue with the bile an dyou put backs up - to your ultimate debt.

118

Zoom2,

31/08/2007 15:47:33

Vincent,

I'm not being a nutter when I point out that England invaded and attempted to colonise Scotland by brute force at various points in history. This is fact.

Nor am I being a nutter when I point out the negative impact of England on various aspects of Scotland's cultural inheritance, which includes language. This is also a fact.

And if I perceive that England is having a negative effect on my country, which it is, then I can witter about it as much as I like. I don't give a damn about the rise of English nationalism.

And it's because of people like me (or, more to the point, of people like Burns) who witter on about "A parcel of rogues in the nation" or whatever that people like you have something left of Scottish culture to celebrate.

You ought to be thanking not arguing with me.

119

VincentW,

hame 31/08/2007 16:14:59

You live in the past.

In the words of the Irish song 'What's done is done.'

Celebrate your culture and my culture - as I do - don't berate me for what my forebears did to your forebears as I don't berate you for what yours did to mine.

I still hope the programme is a success though - don't you?

120

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 31/08/2007 16:29:17

-- There never was a civilized nation in Africa.

David Hume was writing from the collected knowlege of his time which was very scanty. One might say that there has never been a cililized people in Florida tho apparently there was once, and there are the ruins of their cities to investigate.

Scots is a language for it builds ships!

English as spoken commonally in the UK doesn't rate even as a dialect. It is slang, jargon, spin and it is only criminals, in their very limited outlook,that speak this way. For they know no better. It's always me me me , and money-for-nothing, a directorship, a peerage, yes please.

Man will LIVE or perish as a non-social species which is how English are perceived in the world. Anti-social more like it as you can see if you're unfortunate to be in an English town on a Friday night.

121

bluepict,

Union falls 31/08/2007 16:38:40

As a Moray Quine, I plan on tuning in! Well done!

I give my full support toward the revival of Scottish culture in Scotland,especially Gaelic.

English culture as fine as it is belongs in England.

122

VincentW,

Home 31/08/2007 16:47:54

Bluepict - log into the lochgoilhead fiddle festival and see how cultures can be co-celebrated and don't be so narrow minded!!!!

123

VincentW,

Home 31/08/2007 16:50:43

Methalions - BRILLIANT THAT'S MORE LIKE IT!!!!

124

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 31/08/2007 17:03:34

Extrapolating from data, by 2010 Dundee will consitis entirely of wild witchie woman and horrid dog-men. I don't do anythig smaller than a collie or bigger than a rottie but anything bigger or smaller is certainly likely to be SCUM. We'll make exceptions for terriers and Jock Russel.

I don't call't comedy; I call it pish!

125

BigWullie,

The Hielans 31/08/2007 17:49:57

Well done Colin Wilson, Nìall, Zoom2, Iainruadh and the rest who can present consistent, informed arguments under a barrage of monoglot English hatred.
Aye an guid luck tae Plooble an aw at daurs tae scrieve it!
To only speak English is a handicap. Intellectually, socially, culturally, economically, ecologically it's a handicap.

Like Iainruadh I was brought up in a Scots speaking community but from a Highland backgound.

As an adult I was able to build on the repertoire of Gaelic phrases I got at home as a child.

As a child and a teenager I made every effort to learn Scots and was repeatedly thrashed and humiliated for speaking it at school but I kept to it and wouldn't give it up.

As an adult I have learned the hard way that when going for a job or when stopped by the police, speaking Scots will lead to trouble, speaking English will not.

I have therefore again and again abandoned my Scots because I would, even as an adult, maybe especially as an adult, be punished for speaking it.

Most of us do that. Some brave souls don't. I am quite sure that there are many many folk in jail or jobless because they determinedly keep to their language.

My Gaelic and my Scots have given me access to other cultures in ways that English just can't or rather doesn't.

I have been to Ireland and enjoyed beautiful weeks of conversation in Gaelic. It's very different from Scots Gaelic but not so different that it can't be understood quite easily after a wee while. My Gaelic made it easier for me to learn French and Spanish because there are so many similarities between the Celtic languages and the Romance languages.

I have been all over the Netherlands, to Holland, Fryslan and Belgium and I have enjoyed wonderful conversations there with people in their own languages because my Scots gave me enough of a start to be able to see that the various languages spoken in the Netherlands are very similar to Scots. They are very s

126

BigWullie,

The Hielans 31/08/2007 18:05:52

I am stopped by the police or being interviewed for a job I will back down and speak English because I don't like the jail and I need to work, so, in my own country I will not take the risk of speaking my own language.

That is the situation that several million Scots face. It's so wrong, so totally completely and utterly wrong that it is difficult to understand how it can go on and on, day in day out without people even acknowledging it.

Great that Radio Scotland are positive about doing something in Scots, even if it is a stereotyped comedy slot for 'Doric' (why don't they dump the 'Doric' lable? It's Buchans or Aiberdeen or jist 'Scots').

Pity that the BBC don't offer ordinary Scottish people the chance to have their opinions heard. They aye seek oot very definitely English speaking people, indeed, they seem to prefer English people. I've seen them actually doing that, waiting to get somebody English to interview. What guidance do these interviewers get? Are they told to avoid Scots speakers or do they just take it on themselves?

For the thuggish Anglocentrists who enjoy their hommage and bondage to ignorance, consider your poet-god Kipling's question "What do they know of England who only England know" and think about "What can you know of English who only English know?

It is obvious that your access to the world is restricted by only speaking English. Do you not see that your own understanding of English is much poorer for your not knowing any other language?

127

Riley Hamish,

EDINBURGH 31/08/2007 18:18:35

#92 MEMYSELFI

Mush...............don't bother.......it'll be faur to muckle fur yer seized up brain.............jist get back tae Eastenders and x Factor and let the rest o' us revel in a wee bitty cult-yur innat !!

128

VincentW,

Home 31/08/2007 19:15:43

wullie - I'm truly sorry about your experiences, that is totally wrong. Please do not blame all English as that's simply not fair.

I was brought up in England and always taught total respect for all people as were all of my friends and family. Many, if not most, english people are or were the same. My knowledge of German and French did help me in the way you describe. But don't denigrate english as a language.

As I said above I think we should celebrate the diversity of culture available to us in Britain, in Europe and in the world. 'what's done is done, what's won is won, what's lost is lost and gone forever'.

The problem is by lumping the sins of our forebears on each other we walk about with resentment. Forget it and recognise what's good in each others cultures and celebrate. Move on........

129

The 'Menace',

'Edinburgh',, 31/08/2007 20:50:12

# 69...Here's takin' mah hat off tae' ye'Pal,Like
yerself',ah'm fae' Glesga',born,n,bred,in
the Gallowgate,n,then Parkheid,after ah got
married!,worked in the Meat Market,n,'took'
a wee lend o' Liver,n,Tripe,still warm,hame,
maist days,n,shared wi' mah neighbours,n,
Fish,n,Chips,at 11 at night,n,rolls oot the
bakers!,Scaffie's wi' lamps on their heids,
shoutin,n,carrying baskets,mind Ye',oot,n,
intae' the Bin wagon,....Them!..wiz the Days
,n,Peas,n,Vinegar,oot the Caf'e!,Aye!,Great!

130

Angus Lindsay,

Hong Kong 31/08/2007 21:20:45

#13. Tweedmouth

Good points which will be lost on those ignorant of Scots-English linguistic intermingling. I've lived in Tyneside, Teesside, Wearside and Cumbria and am aware of that shared vocabulary.

I get browned off though with the notion that Doric (so-called) is exclusive to Aberdeen and Buchan. The very same lingo is the spoken currency throughout Angus and Perthshire. Aye, and Fife too if we are being generous.

Re the topic: why is it that Glasgow- and Edinburgh-centric mouthpieces treat this subject as only being fit for comedy?

Worse are these cringeworthy societies south of the Tay purporting to promote the Scottish language. All business conducted in English or a quaint version of poetically-licensed kailyard Scots that is not spoken anywhere on the planet. Not quite the everyday Scots we were forbidden to speak in school ...

131

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 31/08/2007 23:44:43

Zoom2

Oh my God!! Just read wiki entrant. please, start again. Let me know what famous gaelic speaker had major influence over modern World events, James wasn't it. Jesus!

Try again, if that was your best effort, long way to go....Telford had more influence and he didn't speak a word of Gaelic....

132

McHoot,

Bellbowrie Qld Australia 01/09/2007 01:31:45

If it's genuinely funny do it and add sub-titles for those who want to learn/understand it. In fact I'd like to see Dunnie and my documentary on the perils of the farting belching moose and the hairy-nosed wombat be narrated in Doric with sub-titles.
The Solomon Islanders speak pidgin in their Parliament which is delightful - and amusing. Wouldn't it be great if the Scottish parliament spoke in Doric? Might be more fun, eh?
Lang may yer collective lums reek and may yer teacups stop having storms in them.

133

jross,

western australia 01/09/2007 02:16:45

What a rammy!! I write as a former fan of Scotland the What? which I first heard in 1975. Although brought up in Edinburgh I could understand them and considered their humour brilliant. To know that these young folk will continue where Scotland the What? finished off is great news to me. I have just returned from a visit to Scotland and was pretty shocked by the accents I heard on Scottish TV - where did they come from?? On another comment - where did the idea come from that Glasgow is Scotland's first city? Edinburgh has always held that position and always will!

134

jross,

western australia 01/09/2007 02:22:53

What a rammy!! I write as a former fan of Scotland the What? which I first heard in 1975. Although brought up in Edinburgh I could understand them and considered their humour brilliant. To know that these young folk will continue where Scotland the What? finished off is great news to me. I have just returned from a visit to Scotland and was pretty shocked by the accents I heard on Scottish TV - where did they come from?? On another comment - where did the idea come from that Glasgow is Scotland's first city? Edinburgh has always held that position and always will!

135

The Pict.,

Canada 01/09/2007 03:21:50

The FACT is that Scots is spoken in Scotland and people from other countries including England do not understand it. Don't forget that there really is NO SUCH THING as English. The so-called English language came from LOW German ( an unwritten language ) and when the Anglo Saxon language came along the total mish- mash was called OLD English by the English.

So you who are ashamed of your language 'Scots' and would rather speak Low German should learn about 'Scots' and of course Gaelic and ask yourselves " why are you not proud of your OWN languages"

Is it the same old ' ah canny dae that ?' Get of your behinds and say 'ah can dae it' an' dae it!
Slainte'

136

Lewisman abroad,

Oman 01/09/2007 05:09:07

The BBC & Comedy Club exec's are 100% Weegie minded and that's why we get fed on a Scottish version of Eastenders humour & Drama....
Scotland is not that big a place to tour and if anyone who typed the cach above had bothered in their day to do so and take in a show in Stornoway, Wick, Inverness, Aberdeen, Fort William or even Oban in the past 3 years they would have been enlightened at the very least.
The weegies are bumping their gums that the Gaelic community are getting a TV station.... Brilliant.... Like the old statement... what's the difference between Glasgow & Yoghurt? If you leave yoghurt long enough it might develop a culture! It might even smell better!
No what ah mean no! Quality man.... quality

137

Rankbadyin,

Palmerston North, New Zealand 01/09/2007 05:09:43

There was a TV documentary recently (about a wee Glaswegian laddie who thought he'd had another life on Barra); it was braw - he called himself a "Barraboy". Of course we know he was referring to Barrowland in Glasgow - I just bring it up to make the point that language is always alive and developing. When I was wee, staying wi' family in Orkney, I used to clean oot the byre; I told Orcadians about this recently and mentioned stepping in sharn; they didna ken whit a was sayin' - another "senior citizen" (new language term?) had tae advise me that sharn was unknown nowadays (I thought they must have found a new method uv keepin' the smell doon?), then said "we ca' it coos***e noo." I suppose that demonstrates that some valuable parts of language die too. In America (where I spent many years) the rush to introduce new language (usually for marketing purposes) would mak yer heid dirl. I sympathise with those wanting to maintain the old expressions in order to sustain their culture. Here in NZ there's an effort being made to preserve the Maori language. I think it is great to attempt to hold on to old values and allow folks to keep warm feelings for things past. We CAN do that to an extent (after all, Walter Scott and Burns used both forms of Scots). But I'm afraid - when the coos***e hits the proverbial fan - we'll be well advised to be learning Chinese!

138

Lewisman abroad,

Oman 01/09/2007 05:10:55

Oooooh, the Weegies or central belties are out in force the day eh? The min anything outside their foxholes gets a bit of attention or recognition that it's worth something, the south west wind blows!
The BBC & Comedy Club exec's are 100% Weegie minded and that's why we get fed on a Scottish version of Eastenders humour & Drama....
Scotland is not that big a place to tour and if anyone who typed the cach above had bothered in their day to do so and take in a show in Stornoway, Wick, Inverness, Aberdeen, Fort William or even Oban in the past 3 years they would have been enlightened at the very least.
The weegies are bumping their gums that the Gaelic community are getting a TV station.... Brilliant.... Like the old statement... what's the difference between Glasgow & Yoghurt? If you leave yoghurt long enough it might develop a culture! It might even smell better!
No what ah mean no! Quality man.... quality!

139

Nìall,

Dùn Éideann 01/09/2007 09:52:21

Dragonhead, #154 "Many Scots cannot communicate in the main lingua franca of everyday life, which is English, like it or not. What advantages is being able to speak Gaelic going to magically bestow upon them?"
Linguistic awareness. Monolingualism is a straitjacket on linguistic expression. It is precisely *because* they are monolingual that many undereducated people are unable to communicate clearly with people from outwith a 50 mile radius of their hometowns. Whether we're talking accents, slang or dialect, people talk differently everywhere. Uniform "standard" languages are essentially mythical. Second language learning helps people develop awareness of factors like word formation and appropriacy of register. It was learning French and Gaelic that finally allowed me to distinguish my English from my Scots.

Now, why should we be multilingual in Gaelic, Scots and English rather than English, Urdu/Hindi and Chinese? Without explicitly teaching Scots it is impossible to teach a Scottish child "proper" English as a children simply will not accept being told that they speak "wrong".

140

d.j.,

01/09/2007 15:53:44

Why is it that with some 600+ English language Channels to choose from in the UK it still is not enough for the English speakers on this site. How many programmes can they watch or record at the same time. Finally, how good are these programmes and should they be made using my money.

141

d.j.,

01/09/2007 16:36:31

# 155
The main advantage to speaking Gaelic is that there is no question as to whether you are Scottish or not, as it informs you through the litrature, the songs, the history, that you are a seperate entity without question.

Moreover it gives you the opportunity to grow and retain a seperate identity without interference from others if it is wished. Be it food ,dress, ideas, artistic, modes or anything else.

Having the same language as your neighbour especially if it is a major one as English is, rarely enables any kind of seperate development to occur.

Empires are build on sameness never seperateness that is, other than minor and unimportant detail.

142

Exiledlassie,

01/09/2007 20:27:20

As a Glasgow quine, who was beaten for speaking Glaswegian, I am DELIGHTED to hear of ANY increase in local dialect usage. Doric was once spoke, albeit in slightly different form, in all of non-Gaelic speaking Scotland. If you don't like it turn to another channel.

Our languages are a vital part of who we are as a nation. Gaelic and Doric need supporting not bashing. Since when did English become a language Scots spoke proudly? It's a foreign tongue for pete's sake!
Speak it well, by all means, just as one might French or Italian, but learn oor ain leid an a.

143

Malc - Beast O' The Moor,

workin' 07/04/2008 11:58:55
I don't have time to read all the posts here so maybe someone
has pointed it out already but I'm amazed at so many ignorant
posts - Scots is also termed Scots English. Why? Because
it's also derived from Anglo Saxon (in fact it's closer
to Anglo Saxon than English due to a lesser influence
from Latin tongues). The Angles and Saxons invaded England
and their language dominated. It made it's way north and
became established in Scotland and over the years has absorbed
words from Gaelic, Scandic tongues and no doubt anything else
being spoken. While Anglosaxon developed in to English in England,
it developed into Scots English in Scotland but due to national
broadcasting and the educational system the variety spoken
in Scotland has been brought closer to English. Why do we
say Kirk instead of Church? Because the Anglosaxon word (and
not surprisingly the modern German word too) is Kirk.
As a people we are less Germanic than the English but the
Scots speakers (I guess not the Gaelic as a first language people) or more Germanic in their language. Cool huh?
Also, Gaelic is on the latin side of things. None of it
should be "suppressed" - bah, got to get back to work now.
If any of the above is less than spot on, then please do let
me know :)

 

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