Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Sunday, 7th September 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Edinburgh Evening News site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Poll says support for Scots independence at all-time low



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 30 April 2008
SUPPORT for an independent Scotland has fallen to an all-time low, a new opinion poll claimed today.
Just 19 per cent of people said they would vote for independence in a multi-option referendum on Scotland's future. Nearly three-quarters of those questioned backed keeping the Scottish Parliament as it is or increasing its powers.

But the YouGov
survey also found support for the SNP had increased since last year's Holyrood elections. And more than half said they approved of the Scottish Government's record over the past year. The findings on independence will be a blow to First Minister Alex Salmond, whose declared strategy is to govern well under devolution so people are persuaded to opt for independence.

The poll, for today's Daily Telegraph, found in a yes/no referendum, 59 per cent would be in favour of retaining the present parliament and 25 per cent would back "a completely separate state outside the UK".

But if the option of "greater powers" was added – as Mr Salmond has proposed – support for independence fell to 19 per cent, compared with 34 per cent supporting the parliament's existing powers and 38 per cent for more powers.

The previous lowest level of support for independence was 23 per cent in a survey by the Scottish Centre for Social Research last year. And the findings contrast with two recent polls which put support for independence at around 40 per cent.

However, asked on voting intentions in a Scottish Parliament election, 36 per cent said they would back the SNP in the constituency vote – up from 33 per cent in the elections last May. Labour was down one point to 31 per cent, the Liberal Democrats down one to 15 per cent and the Tories down four to 13 per cent.

In the regional or list vote, the SNP had 37 per cent support – up six points – while Labour was down one to 28 per cent, the Lib Dems up two to 13 per cent and the Tories down one to 13 per cent.

SNP deputy leader and Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon MSP said the growing SNP lead showed the party's honeymoon was continuing on the back of solid policy delivery.

And on independence, she said: "If you ask a straight question, unlike in this poll, then you will get a straight answer. The most recent poll to ask the question as it would be put in a referendum showed support for independence for Scotland moving ahead of the status quo – advancing by 16 points since last summer."

In the YouGov poll, fifty-two per cent of people said they approved of the Scottish Government's record while 27 per cent disapproved. And 53 per cent said they were satisfied with Mr Salmond and 33 per cent dissatisfied.





The full article contains 474 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 30 April 2008 4:00 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 11:28:04
We like bits of this poll. Clearly the bit on independence is accurate, but the bit about approval of the SNP government and SNP support is inaccurate.

While we Unionists totally rejected the 2 polls in April showing support for independence at 40% as those polls were flawed, this poll we accept (in part) as it is not flawed.
2

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 11:32:58
Quick Wendy force a vote of no confidence in the Government and force an election before the pollsters change their minds again.
3

Alan B,

30/04/2008 11:38:32
Why does the article not print the questions asked?

"If you ask a straight question, unlike in this poll, then you will get a straight answer."

That seems to suggest that a question was asked to get the answer wanted.
4

Alan B,

30/04/2008 11:43:01
While i support independence, there seems to be a big majority that would support more powers for the sp. By adding together those than want independence and those that want much more powers for the sp.

It would make sense then for the sp to be granted significantly more powers as a first step. The most important of those being fiscal autonomy. It would mean a proper discussion can be conducted over independence and what it really means rather than mudding the waters with the promise of more powers.

Also with fiscal autonomy and some of the other obvious powers then the scottish parliament can start making a real difference, starting with our economy.


5

oder,

Scotland 30/04/2008 11:47:55
No problem! general election scupper the nats now?
dont hold your breath! not likey to happen! labour wouldn`t want an such unfair advantage, great sporting types that Labour are!
6

brownlie,

30/04/2008 11:49:31
1 Union is blessed

Good morning - what a fine day to be a unionist.

Great news for us!! A massive 27% disapproved of the SNP Government and an even more massive 33% are dissatisfied with Alex Salmond. After lessons from HM, shortly to be released, I'm beginning to like these polls.

7

Alan B,

30/04/2008 12:00:12
#5 MyNameIsEarl

Would u trust the telegraph?

It just seems to go so much against the other recent polls.

One thing i have noticed with uk polls not regarding scotland. Is if u look at polls commissioned by the telegraph and the guardian, on similar topics, they alway have results confirming their own editorial view.
8

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:00:56
This is just too much fun.

You nat-wits must be sitting at your machines raging. Having spent weeks complaining that "unionists" reject polls, totally drooling over one isolated and solitary poll, you now are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.

Haha, the truth hurts eh? Between 1/5 to 1/4 want Scotland to be independent.

Don't you Nats just hate democracy? You all must be fuming.
9

Brian M,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:11:21
A very skewed interpretation of a skewed question
10

Sedov,

Scotland 30/04/2008 12:11:52
The vast majority of Scottish people understand that independence within the global economy is a romantic myth peddled by highly paid politicians who cannot see beyond their noses and who have taken advantage of a certain section of the Scottish population whose main motive for nationalism is that for some reason or other they hate the English. We have a devolved parliament and we need to give it more fiscal powers and which can act on behalf of all the Scottish people and help combat the rotten system of markets and capital which is failing the majority, not only within Scotland but throughout the world. Its only by uniting all working people can this be acheived and not by erecting barriers and borders. Internationalism, not nationalism!
11

BIG EYE,

Paisley 30/04/2008 12:12:04
anyone want to bet that this nonsense poll will get great coverage in the unionist press?

Anyway if it keeps Unionists thinking they are winning when they are in fact getting an absolute hammering on virtually every issue then it can only make the day after the next election all the more fun.

Surprised the poll didn't announce large gains to be made by Labour in England and Wales tomorrow but perhaps it will appear in tomorrow's paper.

The debate has moved on in Scotland all that remains to be determined is how long we give the English to strip our resources before independence happens.

Normally i would be worried about this but Unionist posters on this site are so pathetic it seems to me that they have given up the ghosts already.

Roll on elections in Scotland and those prone to Unionist bias be worried, very worried about being exposed as such when the results come rolling in.

Keep up the good work SNP
12

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 12:12:19
9. Well said! The Nats insistence on a referendum opposed by us Unionists shows how much they hat democracy!
13

AJ Fife,

30/04/2008 12:12:23
Was this another poll carried out in the Scotsman offices?
14

me150,

30/04/2008 12:13:15
Funny that, none of the usual SNP posters here today so far.

I wonder why?????

Can't handle to true position of their party?
15

brownlie,

30/04/2008 12:18:14
9 Alfred E.

Great stuff - nearly as great as your escape. I hope that this is not a ploy by the nasty nats to lull us into a false sense of security so that we just carry on being negative and plundering the poor. and enriching the rich.
16

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 30/04/2008 12:22:07
I predict more polls showing support for independence at over 40% and more suggesting it's around 20%. The answer you get clearly depends upon the question that you ask. I support the gradualist route. I don't think unionists should be crowing so soon; after all, you still have to agree what you collectively mean by 'more powers'. If Brown loses the next Westminster election - as looks increasingly likely - Wendy's commission may become Anabelle's commission. What then? What is clear from this poll is that support for the SNP is still high, whereas support for Labour has stalled, and support for the Tories in Scotland is going down. It seems the unionists posting here are all happy with that.
17

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:22:09
13 Union is best

You are democracy hating Nationalist. The majority of people do not want independence or a referendum.

What give a minorty pressure group the right to waste a countries time on referendums?

If 20% of Scots want to see donkey sancturies refurbished, but the government has other priorities with the cash. Would you support the Donkey question going to the polls?

Can all you Nats tell us why this poll is "skewed" and why it is "nonsense"? On what basis do you assert this frippery?
18

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:25:43
16 Brownlie

That would be the Labour party doing that, not the Union. I dislike Labour as much as you do, and more than I dislike the SNP.

But what do you think of the poll? Does it cause you pain to know you are in a minority? Do you hate democracy?
19

Queen D,

Glasgow 30/04/2008 12:30:43
Delighted to hear that the poll results are so low!
Lets have the real poll now!
Give us a referendum now!
Never having been polled in my life , except of course by this newspaper which refused to publish its results or the so called e-mail, I regard polls as a wasteful activity sponsored by self interested spin doctors.
Skewing results by the wording of questions has ever been the method of getting what you want!
NEVER believe a poll by the Telegraph!Or for that matter any newspaper with a not so hidden agenda.
20

Steve,

30/04/2008 12:31:34
So lets get this straight, after 2 or 3 polls showing support for indepepndence to be at an all time high....


along comes another showing it to be at an all time low!

Priceless.
21

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 12:31:44
15. Bit of an own goal there, as the poll seems to put the SNP ahead still, but I think I understood what you were trying to say!
22

unbiased,

In Scotland 30/04/2008 12:31:57
Where did they do this poll? North Lanarkshire - methinks. They certainly didn't ask me or anyone else I know!
23

Aesop,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 12:32:42
Maybe the next time the Daily Torygraph commissons an opinion poll on independence they should interview more people than those they spot hanging outside the pubs in Larkhall and Govan in shell suits.
24

unbiased,

Nairn 30/04/2008 12:34:46
Aesop - a telephatic moment there!
25

unbiased,

Nairn 30/04/2008 12:35:04
oops - telepathic!
26

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 30/04/2008 12:37:11
The Telegraph describe this poll as "the most in-depth analysis yet of attitudes to constitutional change" but I cannot see what the sample group was. How many people were asked? Can anyone enlighten me?
27

Andrew Murphy,

EDINBURGH 30/04/2008 12:37:59
So what? The poll states one thing but the voters will do something else.

Put it too the vote and let the electorate dicide this issue once and for all.

That after all is true democracy.

My vote is already decided for when it comes.

And it will come eventually.
28

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 12:39:48
What about the result of the poll carried out about a month ago by the Hootsmoan on Sunday?? I must have missed the result in the excitement of the English local elections. Can anyone help???
I also missed seeing Red Wendy's e-mails.
I really am slipping!!
29

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/04/2008 12:45:34
29
You're not slipping, that particular poll was abandoned because SNP HQ were caught red-handed trying to doctor the results. Looks like they couldn't use their malign influence with The Tortygraph though, eh?
30

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 12:48:07
29 Jimmy the Pie

Okay, thanks for that rant, but...

What do you think of this poll? Do you accept the results?
31

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 30/04/2008 12:48:30
Sedov* Even Marx said that before you can be come an internationalist you must first become a nationalist.

And I do mean karl not Groucho!

Anyway, I missed this poll, how many people were asked?
32

unbiased,

Nairn 30/04/2008 12:48:50
*Please enter your comment*
33

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 12:52:00
#30

That's it! You've convinced me that I have been misguided for the last 40 years. I will no longer follow the SNP line and after severely beating myself aboot the heid, I will call myself a Unionist.
My next problem is which of the glorious unionist parties should I support??

I will also never mention again the posting below.



British Pride,
11/04/2008 18:16:47
553. Whoa! Great! Such typical SNP incite. Fantastic! I only post as Highland Mighty, can you say the same you cyber-nay???
34

Grahamski,

Falkirk 30/04/2008 12:52:42
32
Marx supported nationalism? A spectacularly inaccurate interpretation of socialism. A common failing among nationalists throughout history, unfortunately.
35

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/04/2008 12:53:11
This Union is no longer fit-for-purpose, but neither does independence offer a safe and sure improvement. Happily most Scots are unwilling to jump from frying pan to fire, or to throw out babies with bath water.

We con/federalists offer a third way. Federalism works all over the planet, so why not think about it for ourselves. It's the best of both worlds as I see it.
36

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 30/04/2008 12:54:32
Re a referendum: There wont be one from Holyrood because the umionist parties don't want it, they could vote one through if they wished, but won't.

Westminster has the power to hold one,but the unionist partyies there won't do it either, all this begs the question, why not?

There is only one obvious answer, they are scared.
37

Blarney,

Cambusbarron 30/04/2008 12:55:29
Great news!!
Totally accept this result. All the other recent polls have been wrong.
Infact let's not even mention them anymore, they were obviously a silly blip.
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
Come on Wendy call a referendum now, come on, you are on to a definate winner.
Trust the poll Wendy, it's not fake, it's real, yeah like, really real not makey up real like the others recently that we will never mention again, never.
yours sincerely
A devout and unblinkered Unionist.
38

Blarney,

Arbroath 30/04/2008 13:01:41
Come on Jackie, your not honestly saying that these figures have been manipulated by a trustworthy and reliable source like the Telegraph are you?
Jesus H, some people just can't stand being shown to be in the minority.
Obviously support for Independence is merely at about 33% and all the rest, wether they have an opinion or not are absolutely against Independence. So there you have it, long live the beautifull Union with our equal partner.
39

Jimmy the Pie,

30/04/2008 13:03:13
Jackie Priest

Jackie, I've seen the light and the error of my ways. Join me as a born again Unionist. The unerring logical arguments put forward by AM2 and his friends have overwhelemed me with their passion, logic and commonsense.

Join me, you know it makes sense!!
40

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:05:18
32 Ochone

Ochone presents an interesting example of the uncoordinated logic of the SNP voter's mind.

"Even Marx said that before you can be come an internationalist you must first become a nationalist."

So if you are an internationalist you have progressed and if you are an internationalist in 2008 why go backwards?

I mean, do you not see how daft you are arguing that an internationalist country must become a nationalist otherwise it will never become an internationalist, and internationalism is the goal which we are aspiring too.
41

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:08:20
39 Jackie Priest

"Personally, I'd put..."

Another fascinating insight into the mind of an SNP voter. Receive a fact that the majority of Scots are happy being part of the UK, denial denial denial!, dive! dive! dive! um, let's used some fantasy I just made up, yes, I will believe in my fantasy, it is safe inside la-la land.

You do not offer any reasons in support of your argument the Telegraph cannot be trusted, and you didn't tell us on what basis your punt at the "truth" was made - did you ask a mate?
42

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 13:09:23
35. We in New Labour are more Marks and Spencerist than Marxist, but we feel he would have supported doubling the tax on the lowest paid, cutting inheritance tax for millionnaires and prioritising spending on nuclear WMD and wars, over services for those in need of them.
43

Blarney,

Stornoway 30/04/2008 13:09:27
Count me in, I've had enough of these SNP clowns.
Union good........Independence bad..........Union good...........Independence bad.............Union good........Independence bad..........Union good...........Independence bad.
Ahhh life is so much easier with your head up your backside.
44

Vivas,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:10:31
Doh ! Wendys already getting her moneys worth from this member of the "ahem" constitutional commission.

And as this comic has already reported (verbatim quote):

MURDOCH MACLENNAN
Is the chief executive of the Telegraph Media Group. The flagship paper in his organisation has recently launched a campaign to promote Britishness.
45

Union is Best,

30/04/2008 13:10:33
44. Good post. I hope no one looks up your posts on the poll the other week that showed independence ahead!

We Unionists believe polls are better than a referendum, when we like the poll results!
46

Geoff,

sa 30/04/2008 13:15:51
9 Alfred E Neuman :)

If this poll is to be believed this is good news! But I temper my joy-what about the poll the other day that claimed 41% in favour of independence? Maybe as I postulated-the polls are simply not reliable? Also one consistent fact emerges-Alex Salmond and the SNP seem popular as the Scottish Government and appear to be doing a good job, but this popularity is not incompatible with the rejection of their basic policy on independence. In other words they are a great Scottish government but we want to remain in the Union
47

Blarney,

Inverbottom 30/04/2008 13:16:57
Alf E Neuman for first minister, he really speaks such good sense.
What a relief that someone of his calibre is prepared to sit on here all day defending the wonderfull Union.
God bless you Alf...............sorry....I'm filling up!
48

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:26:55
49 Geoff

Individual polls such as the solitary one showing 41% are indeed unreliable.

But when you take an average of many they tend to be a bit useful. Such as the multiple polls spanning many years showing support for independence at between 1/5 to 1/4.

You have to remember with polls as well. "Will you be voting conservative?" "No." *Goes into booth votes conservative*

Independence questions are much the same. There is often a difference between what people really think and what they are prepared to admit to others.

Sometimes I just tell SNP voters in the pub that I support independence to placate them. They are often drunk and abusive, ranting and raving and sometimes threatening Englishmen with physical violence.
49

Vivas,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:27:56
I treat all polls that show upsurges/downsurges for independence with pretty much the same degree of healthy scepticism.

It's all about timing, and the political and economic landscape in this country in a couple of years will be vastly different. Broon and UK-labour dead in the water. A possible UK-conservative majority looming for the next 5-10 years after that.

If the SNP keep the heid, then when *the real poll* comes, it'll be all hands to the pumps to get the desired result. Thats when the SNP - and those of us who favour independence - can hammer home the argument. But I won't be losing a nights sleep about what any poll says today or tomorrow !

50

Calum10,

30/04/2008 13:34:27
What this poll shows that the status quo is unacceptable to a majority of Scots, that only confirms other multi-option polling over the past few years.

Also this poll highlights that the SNP's honeymoon is over, in fact that period has been over for months. What this poll shows is the growing recognition by Scots that this SNP government is highly competent.
51

,

30/04/2008 13:35:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
52

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 13:37:00
53 Scottish and proud

Support wasn't at 40% last week.

It was 20-25% for years then 40% once then 20-25% again. So the trend is obvious.

The approval rating is because anyone is better than Labour. The SNP is swimming in a sea of crap.
53

DaveK,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:40:50
I haven't seen polls this heaily abused or misrepresented since World War Two.
54

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:42:01
The Scottish cringe is live and well !
55

John PM,

edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:43:08
The poll asks whether people support "a completely separate state outside the UK" this raises the idea that the Queen will not be head off state after independence. Also we will still be in the EU so we won't really be cut off from other countries.

In actual fact the United Kingdom (or Kingdoms) would remain, it would be the British state that would be broken up with independent parliaments for Scotland and England (and Wales no doubt shortly after).

I am a republican but it is a fact that when republicanism or the EU is suggested the poll figures are adjusted downwards for independence, because these issues divide the electorate.

As 'more powers' are not defined people may well be envisaging a parliament with power over defence and foreign affairs which can only happen with independence.

I believe that YouGov's methedology is flawed because it relies on people who sign up as being interested in filling in opinion polls. Such people are not representative of the public at large and YouGov's figures are often wildly inaccurate.

At the current time they are proposing a double figures poll lead for Boris Johnson in the Mayoral poll in London. What's the betting that this proves to be nonsense?

Nonethless I'm sure our unionist friends will shout about this dubious figure and (as they did recently with another rogue low poll) use it to justify ignoring everyone who wants self determination for Scotland.
56

Grahamski,

30/04/2008 13:45:41
53
Surely the only poll that counts is an election rather than a referendum. A referendum, incidentally, which the majority of our elected MSPs do not support. Why should a minority be allowed to dictate to the majority over referenda?
Let's have a referendum when the majority vote for MSPs who advocate one.
57

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:46:09
What would be the point of independence? What would change? Nothing.

We'd likely as not still be saddled with rediculously high fuel prices, the nanny state and the nazi state. As far as I am concerned, no-one stands out in Holyrood as having the bottle to stick their neck out and change anything like that.

Should Scotland get independence, life for the average man in the street would not change. We'd just carry on down the same old boring, wasteful and oppressive route that we have been on since labour got to power in 1997.

Why bother? All it would do is cost us more money---which in turn would mean higher taxes.
58

Andrew D,

Brisbane 30/04/2008 13:48:20
The Scotsman needs to get consistent.

The poll showing support was high was ignored entirely. I think it got mentioned as a by the way in another story some days later.

This one showing it is low, gets the prime spot, first story on the page, and straight away.

But consistency or fairness is not really part of this paper's lexicon. Partisan hackery however is.
59

John S,

30/04/2008 13:48:49
#51 - You are correct when you said - individual polls such as the solitary one showing 41% are indeed unreliable. But when you take an average of many they tend to be a bit useful.
The question asked was the one the Scottish Government is proposing to put to the voters in referendum with the electorate having the choice of either I AGREE or I DO NOT AGREE the actual results are:-
TNS System Three March 2008
I agree: 41%
I do not agree: 40%
Don't know: 19%
Scottish Daily Express Jan 2008
I agree: 27%
I do not agree: 44%
Don't know: 11%
Would not vote 4%
TNS System Three Nov 2007
I agree 40%
I do not agree 44%
Don't know 16%
TNS System Three Aug 2007
I agree 35%
I do not agree 50%
Don't know 15%

The I agree average is 35.75%, remove the SDE result and the I agree average is 38.66%


60

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 30/04/2008 13:49:42
So what do you know - isn't this exactly what Nicol Stephen has been saying? Yes the truth sometimes hurt (the nationalists) but it shows once again the LibDems ARE more in tune with the majority opinion yet again they just need to find better ways of delivering their message to the masses, and this usually happens at election time so bring it on.
61

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 13:52:55
#63. Maybe it would change nothing. I think it could make it easier to change things though... easier than it will be within the UK anyway.

I don't see how it would cost us more money though. Surely by removing the duplication of paying our share of Westminster Parliament, our share of £20bn and more next generation Trident, British military conquests around the world, establish an oil fund a la Norway to invest in the future, reduce corporation tax to improve economic growth etc etc, we could be better off as a country.
62

Alan B,

30/04/2008 13:54:02
#56 Alfred E. Neuman

"It was 20-25% for years then 40% once then 20-25% again. So the trend is obvious."

That is rubbish. As the guy Curtis (Strathclyde uni election expert) said on tv the other night there have been a broadly even split between those wanting independence and those not wanting independence for the last 9yrs based on opinion polls.

If u cast ur mind back to the months before last yrs election the polls consistently showed more people wanting independence.

I remember scotsman headlines saying "support for independence drops" but when u read the article it showed that there was still more wanting independence it was just a percentage point or 2 less than the one a few months before.
63

lilywhite,

borders 30/04/2008 13:55:31
One would assume that Wendy Nicol and Annabelle will be screaming from the rooftops for a referendum asap.
Bring it on
64

Alan B,

30/04/2008 13:57:57
#Jimmy the Pie

"What about the result of the poll carried out about a month ago by the Hootsmoan on Sunday?? I must have missed the result in the excitement of the English local elections. Can anyone help???"

Apparently the scotsman did not like the result so the decided not to publish them. No real surprise.

65

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:00:07
#64. Ian Swanson did write a piece about the last poll (showing a majority for independence) and in it he pretty much made the exact opposite conclusions he makes here. I usually like Ian's pieces, but it seems like he is just making this up as he goes along.

#66. I agree that the Lib Dem's policy is the most popular. However, the Lib Dems could have been in coalition with the SNP if they wanted. We could have had a referendum on their preferred option AND independence. It appears to me that they area more concerned about projecting the Union than progressing their own policies on improving the way we are governed. If the Lib Dems want any credibility, they need to look capable of implementing their policy on devolution max/federalism, and the Unionist Commission will definitely not do that.
66

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:05:59
#66 Liberal for life

The biggest problem with ur party is Nicol Stephens the guy is dreadful as a leader. (if u are being kind he is to leadership what john major was to the tories or swinney was to the snp).

U say that an election would explain the lib dem message. What happened last time? (only last yr).

I cannot understand people in denial.

The lib dems have been lead up the garden path with this commission. Brown has limited its scope and it will not delivery what the lib dems want. Why did they back down so much and have such a watered down parliament in the first place.

The lib dems are so wishy washy. If they really believed in more powers for the sp they should have been making that central to their last yrs election campaign making it clear they would not go into coalition with labour without more powers.

Lets here them actually put forward something concrete like fiscal autonomy rather than something vague.
67

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:06:43
It's quite quiet today?

I would have thought this piece would have been of real interest to some of the regular posters?

The truth of the matter is that the UK is succesful and the British identity strong. There is a lot of educated and decent people in Scotland who have grand-parents that fought in the war and children who are well-educated and work down south on high salaries.

Unfortunately there are also uneducated poor people whose criminal tendency and drug-dependency has resulted in them becoming clients of the state on brew money, they have never left the estate. Their grand-parents were draft-dodgers and their children illeterate. They hate/blame the English and vote SNP, but really they just havethemselves to blame.
68

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:09:34
#73 Merouane

The lib dems did not even have accept a referendum on independence (although it would have been the democratic thing to do). They should have atleast gone into talks with the snp about a way forward.

There uk leader Campbell made a deal with his buddy brown to stop any lib dem, snp discussions. And Nicol Stephens like the poodle he is followed his master.

It would be very easy for the 2 parties to put off a discussion on an independence referendum till after they achieve fiscal autonomy. That would have most likely suited both sides.
69

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:12:50
#Alfred E. Neuman

"The truth of the matter is that the UK is succesful"

If you think scotland has been successful within the uk, u have very low ambitions for ur country and its people.
70

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:15:47
#63 "What would be the point of independence? What would change? Nothing."

So it is crap now, but we should not try to do anything about it. Nothing like being ambitous.

Why do u think other small countries can do so much better than us? Do u think we are uniquely incapable.
71

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:16:22
77 Alan B

Why?

What can I achieve within an independent Scotland that I cannot as part of the UK?

You can assume for these purposes I excel at advanced maths, physics and engineering?

Build a channel tunnel? No

Build a Sky-scraper? No

Get involved in advanced research? Less likely

Oxfords motor sport industry? Less likely

The list is endless.

If you are a parochial failure who needs the oil for a boost to the old brew money? Yes! But do we class that as ambition?
72

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:18:31
#75. My grandparents fought in the war. I am well educated and previously lived "down south" (although the salary wasn't particularly large). What's your point?

#76. Yes, spot on. And that little episode sums up why even Lib Dem style federalism won't be enough (although it will be a good next step). Even within the Lib Dem party structure, we have a Scottish leader who can be dictated to and manipulated to preserve the interests of the UK party.
73

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:22:48
Grahamski "Let's have a referendum when the majority vote for MSPs who advocate one."

u do not really believe in democracy do u? u must support labour.

The whole idea of a referendum is to let people decide an issue. It is used generally round consitutional issues rather than following the party line.

The problem with referendum in this country is the labour party who have used them for party polical purposes. Blair would use it for the eu constitution as he might lose an election. Not for the improving democracy. Then they decide not to have a referendum on substantially the same treaty because they have realy won the election.

Referendum should not be used by governments to implement their own policies but to give the people a real choice over issues particularly constitutional ones.

Personally i like the way the us does it where, the people can call for a referendum that by passes the politicians. Direct democracy is a far better way to decide issues that dumb politicians looking out for themselves.
74

John S,

30/04/2008 14:24:00
#75 - The truth of the matter is that the UK is succesful, I agree with you.
The Adam Smith Institute - April 27, 2007
The paper, “Independent Scotland: The Road to Riches,” It examines the comparative performance of Scotland and England, finding that from 1992-2004, Scotland’s gross value added grew at 4.7 percent, compared with a UK average of 5.4 percent, giving Scotland only 87 percent of the UK’s growth.


75

homerule,

specific quay 30/04/2008 14:24:56
Worst UK house price slide since 1996 raises negative equity fears .....from todays torygraph ie 1%
This is why we want away from the doom and gloom of the uk and tory press and media......

Its great they,as always, dont know what is happening in the real world.....
76

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/04/2008 14:26:53
#77. An independent Scotland can take action based on the wishes of the people of Scotland. That's something that a UK government will not do.

The Parliament of an independent Scotland will more accurately reflect the votes cast. The UK is unlikely to change its system where the party with 35% of the vote has complete authority.

As for the other stuff you mention, in theory, everything we could do in an independent Scotland, you are right, we could do within the Union. But so many of these things are not happening. Because the money is not there and because the political will is not there at the highest level of government.

That is what needs to change.
77

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:31:15
#79 Alfred E. Neuman

I know u try to do the wind up thing. But try no to play dumb.

"Why?"

Scotland has had low economic growth of less that 2% (avg) over the last 10, 20 and 30yrs. (The uk as a whole has done much better.)

Teh countries specified beloow all done better gdp ppp that the uk. And scotland has grown less than the uk.

Luxembourg, Norway, Cyprus, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita (imf)







78

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:31:25
82 John S

You sound angry and your point is stupid. Two facets that are often seen in the same person.

I said the UK is successful and tried to prove it wasn't by comparing to countries of the UK with each other? I mean where to begin?

Firstly, if you want to prove the UK is not a success compare it with more than one other country not in the UK. Heavens above man, you have been indoctrinated by the cult of Salmond. Just shouting random and irrelevent things because it supports your believe you have been robbed.

Secondly, you must demonstrate that the 0.7 difference is down to the UK is you want to be taken seriously. I submit the difference is down to Labour-led Glasgow, England isn't as bogged down as Scotland with Birmingham/Liverpool.

So long as we have our largest city dominating Europe in gang-warfare, murder, drugs and brew money we will always be shackled.
79

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:33:16
#Alfred E. Neuman

"What can I achieve within an independent Scotland that I cannot as part of the UK?"

For u personally, hopefully better community care.
80

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:36:53
87 Alan B

Thanks for that, but can you answer the question? I submit you cannot. I submit you are brainwashed, your arguments are froth, accusations glib.

Please tell me what people can do in an independent Scotland that they cannot do as part of the UK?

You just hate the English becaue daddy blamed them for his circumstances?
81

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:37:12
#86 Alfred E. Neuman

So ur contention is scotland is doing crap but it is inevitable because of glasgow. At we least u have admitted scotland has been doing crap economically.

The only difference i can see between us on this issue is i think we can do something about it u have given up.
82

John S,

30/04/2008 14:38:41
#86 - I was supporting you when you said "the UK is successful" and showed some figures to help you prove your point.
83

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:41:49
#88 Alfred E. Neuman

if u had read the thread i had made a serious reply to u in #85.

Also indpendence has nothing to do with hating england. That is just the dumb labour defence of the union as they, like urself cannot actually come up with any tangible argument.

I lived in england for about 9yrs over 2 different periods. So u really are clueless. Independence is about whether scotland can do better. Can be run better.
84

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 14:42:27
Logically, support for independence correlates pretty well with support for the SNP. This poll indicated 36-37% and the next most recent poll said 41%.
85

brownlie,

30/04/2008 14:43:22
Alfred E.

Alfie, your medication is wearing off - seek help immediately.
86

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 30/04/2008 14:44:28
#18 Alf

How do you know what the majority of the people want?
87

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 14:44:52
No great surprise. We Scots know on which side our bread is buttered.
88

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:45:07
Alfred

Can u actually try to put ur serious hat on and give put forward an economic argument for the union based on the fact we have done so crap within it over the last lot of decades.

I notice the typical unionist side step is to say the uk is doing well as a whole. Neat polical trick but does expose the limitations or ur own beliefs about the success of the union.
89

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:45:45
Alan B (Famous Rik Mayal political character?)
Jackie Priest

You cannot answer the question, you cannot give an example of one thing that I can do in an independent Scotland that I connot do withint the UK.

Can you name one thing, just one? I sumbit you cannot and have been brainwashed.
90

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 30/04/2008 14:47:13
I just held a poll outside labour headquarters and the result was 100% against Scottish Independance. I held the same poll outside the SNP headquarters and not surprisingly they voted 100% for Scottish Independance.
91

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:47:25
95 Conboy

Every election in Scotland has never returned enough SNP ministers to pursue the independence aim. Alex Salmond acknowledged that in 1998. Ten years on and you're still not up to date.

What do you hate more democracy or the English?
92

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:48:52
99 Banana Heid

Your imaginary poll had these results.

Labour HQ For 10% Against 90%

SNP HQ For 70% Against 30%


A lot of main party voters want independence, likewise a lot of SNP voters don't want independence.
93

Alan B,

30/04/2008 14:51:13
Alfred

It is u who is not answering questions and side stepping issues with dumb questions. No-one is saying using ur example that independence is about building tunnels.

Economically it is about whether we can create better living standards for scotland. More and better jobs. Be a richer society etc.

I understand ur question. And it translates into ur are doing quite well for urself so it does not matter if others aren't. Or alternatively u just have few ambitions.
94

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 30/04/2008 14:51:47
When it comes to the crunch, the Scots (as always) will vote according to the money they have in their pocket now, and the money they think they will have in the future. And the result will be "no" to independence.
95

brownlie,

30/04/2008 14:53:52
98 Alfred

The nats could probably say that in an independent Scotland they would not waste money and lives in an illegal war on a country that presented no threat to Scotland. They could also point out the money wasted on nuclear weapons that can never be used.
96

Alfred E. Neuman,

30/04/2008 14:54:52
102 Alan B

Do you know how to create more and better jobs? Can you demonstrate what impact independence would have on that?

Better living standards? Same thing?

Richer society? We can v