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STUC urged to widen debate on independence



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Published Date: 20 April 2008
ONE of the country's biggest unions will declare this week that it is time for Scottish independence to be considered by all political parties.
The Scottish branch of the Public and Commercial Services Union (PCSU) will call for full separation from the UK to be placed on the agenda of the Scottish Trade Union Congress so it can be properly discussed.

The call is a major embarrassment for Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander, who earlier this year set up a commission looking at the Scottish Parliament's powers but insisted that independence be excluded as an option.

Trade union chiefs in Scotland have previously declared that MSPs are "restricted" by the powers at their disposal in the Scottish Parliament. But they have never before called for independence to be placed on the agenda, as they will do this week.

The motion from the PCSU backs the decision by Alexander to set up a constitutional commission to consider more powers for Holyrood.

But it concludes: "It is vitally important in carrying out this work that all options for Scotland's future remain included for consideration."

A spokeswoman for the PCSU said: "We recognise where the debate is and we think that the STUC should take a position to consider all options, including a referendum on independence. We should consider all options."

The call is also expected to be backed by Unison, one of the biggest unions in the country – indicating that it has a fair chance of being approved.

The congress will also see the unions offer a detailed analysis of what powers should be immediately handed over to Holyrood in its current form.

A report to be put before union members states: "The general council (of the STUC] supports in principle the devolution of council tax benefit contingent on the ongoing debate over fiscal powers."

The STUC chiefs say they also support plans to give MSPs the power to set corporation tax and housing benefit.

Aside from fiscal powers, the STUC also believes that Holyrood should be given "limited further powers" over broadcasting – such as authority over the industry regulator, Ofcom. The congress also indicates that it may eventually back plans to hand over all responsibility on broadcasting to the Scottish Parliament.

A spokeswoman for the SNP said: "The STUC's ideas are a very welcome contribution to the debate on Scotland's constitutional future, in particular having all the options on the table, including independence, when discussing our constitutional future.

"It is the absolutely correct view that resources such as council tax benefit – which is integral to the funding arrangements for local government – should remain in Scotland and not be removed by Westminster, and it leaves the London Treasury and the Labour Party increasingly isolated.

"It is simply untenable for them to argue that over £400m of Scotland's money should be swiped by the UK Government simply because we democratically choose to abolish the unfair council tax and replace it with a fair local income tax based on ability to pay, or indeed any other system.

"Even though local government finance is clearly devolved under the Scotland Act, what the Treasury is effectively saying is that you can have any kind of local tax you like in Scotland as long as it is the council tax. The clear consensus view in Scotland is that this is simply wrong and unacceptable."

A Scottish Labour spokeswoman said: "Labour welcomes support for the constitutional commission, which was set up with a parliamentary mandate and aims to review the devolution settlement to ensure it is delivering for the people of Scotland. The vast majority of Scots have consistently rejected independence, therefore the commission will focus on reviewing the settlement within a UK framework."

'Smug' jibe

It is not the type of question he gets asked every day. During a web-chat with the BBC yesterday, First Minister Alex Salmond was forced to answer a query by one online blogger who wanted to know, "Why are you such a smug git?" Another asked: "Why are you such a pompous oaf?"

With a straight face, Salmond replied: "I do wish that my relatives wouldn't contribute to the programme."

He added: "I'll just have to agree to be myself – luckily that seems to be getting pass marks."

Salmond was also asked why he had not yet cancelled student debt, as promised during last year's election campaign.

He said a consultation on student debt was currently running.

Calls for Scotland to run its own elections

THE Electoral Reform Society has said Westminster should be stripped of its power to run Scottish elections.

This latest boost to the SNP comes after last year's electoral chaos, which saw the rejection of 140,000 parliamentary votes.

A subsequent report by Canadian elections expert Ron Gould said control should be in the hands of one body and that the Scottish Government would be the logical institution.

Electoral Reform Society chief executive Ken Ritchie said: "We can see no reason for the Scottish Government not having control of the Scottish Parliament elections.

"Indeed, we believe it would be an affront to democracy if the Westminster Parliament, of whose members less than 9% represent Scottish seats, could impose its will on the Scottish Parliament in this matter without having a very strong reason to do so – and we have not heard a strong reason for the status quo."

A Scotland Office spokesman said: "The Electoral Reform Society is entirely entitled to its view on the future of elections in Scotland, though that view is not universally shared."

Meanwhile, Alex Salmond will fire the starting gun in the campaign for the next Westminster elections today, claiming that a buoyant SNP can win enough seats to hold the balance of power between Labour and the Tories.

The First Minister will tell delegates at the SNP spring conference that he believes the party could claim as many as 20 Scottish seats at the next election, up from the six it now holds.

Many observers expect Gordon Brown to call the vote this time next year. Salmond will tell the party faithful in his keynote speech that, in such a situation, he would use his bargaining power to extract major concessions from Westminster.

Aides to Salmond last night said they would, for example, demand that the increase in whisky duty be cut and that the £400m council tax benefit cash held at Westminster be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

A source close to Salmond said: "The arithmetic could be very, very tight. We think we could achieve a block of around 20 MPs in Westminster. It is perfectly possible that a block of SNP MPs could be in an important position holding the balance of power."

The source did not rule out using such a position to deal with the Tories.

Salmond will use his speech today to set out how success in running a devolved Scottish Government is increasing support for independence.

However, Labour hit back last night. A spokesman said: "This is wishful thinking on Alex Salmond's part… Given that he's presided over 12 months of broken promises and cuts to public services, maybe he shouldn't take public support for granted.

"The people of Scotland don't want a Government that's more interested in talking about how pleased it is with itself. They want one that tackles the real issues that matter to them."

THE VERDICT: Leading Scots pass judgment on the SNP's first 12 months

The full article contains 1243 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Melly,

Sussex 20/04/2008 00:10:05
Slowly but surely Wendy`s old comrades are realising that the union is a dead duck and we now have a government of bright capable Scots that care firstly for Scotland. She must be wettin her breeks,
2

Jackie Priest,

20/04/2008 00:41:30
It is good to see a union showing initiative and moving with the times.
3

Senga Jean,

Scotland 20/04/2008 00:47:56
Nobody is perfect but Alex Salmond is not bad at getting gae close. C'mon big man or wee man your doing no bad at'all. Gie it laldy!
4

Edward,

20/04/2008 00:50:18
What ever happend to the Scotland on Sunday poll that was supposed to have been published last Sunday?
5

,

20/04/2008 01:01:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

democrate,

Brigadoon 20/04/2008 01:06:08
#Edward -
the poll was hugely in favour so, as you would expect, it is not going to be published.
7

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 20/04/2008 01:22:30
At last the boys are moving with the times, CONGRATULATIONS TO ONE AND ALL. INDEPENDENCE is on the agenda and will not come off untill it happens.
8

Guga II,

Rockall 20/04/2008 01:24:46
Methinks the unions don't believe that The Mouth of the South really is a "socialist".
9

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 20/04/2008 01:29:03
The Labour party in Scotland is in complete freefall. We even see their traditional core support in the labour movement telling them they are out of touch.

They better stop taking their marching orders from Westminster or they may end up with less seats than the green party.

10

,

20/04/2008 01:57:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 20/04/2008 02:05:13
The Scottish Trade Unions membership is comprised of a broad spectrum of the Scottish Workers. That means that the STUC needs to get up to date with the feelings within the general population. The polls have consistently indicated the majority support the SNP position in regard to the preferred future of Scotland.

The problem for them is generally they are sycophantic to their masters down south. Surely they should be fighting the case for an independant Scotland or face a future of declining membership. Every Scottish Union member who believes that it is time for Scotland to grasp control of its future, should complete the form that states their union dues should not be given to any political party, especially London Controlled New Labour. Every union member has that legal right, and every Scottish Person who love their Nation should exercise that right. No more exclusive New Labour Party Funding would soon send the right message to the puppets of the London New Labour Party.
12

Hen Mc.Stoorie,

20/04/2008 02:18:26
11 A better way

Rather than a broad spectrum, we need a broad rectum, supporting the SNP position
13

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 20/04/2008 02:54:59
#10 Fakie Hen Mc Stoorie

Your apperant obsession with all things anal leads to the conclusion that you are either a member of the Conservative party or a house master in an english public school.

Which is it?
14

Willie Macleod,

Wick 20/04/2008 03:28:15
#12 Fake Hen Mac Stoorie Bu##### Off and leave decent people to discuss.Real Hen senga and others how do we get rid of this. Ayrshire Meths Miss H and others have had to put up with this.
15

haggis 10,

The Capital City OF Scotland (not for) 20/04/2008 05:06:20
Roll on INDEPENDENCE
16

terry osser,

morden 20/04/2008 05:54:18
agreed hadrians wall should be repaired and passport control instituted
17

Watson,

Irvine 20/04/2008 06:49:19
What is happening???? Scotland on Sunday without a "Bash the Nats story". I see the leader of Glasgow Council is saying that Independence should be on the agenda. Has Scotland on Sunday found a real journalist and will he/she be used in The Scotsman?
18

donald,

glasgow 20/04/2008 06:59:33
They closed down all the Scottish Union and the SCWS in the late 60's/early 70's. They also got rid of Bill Speirs in favour of right wing unionists, like Grahame Smith and are plotting to get rid of the Scottish TUC, because of the growing number of Scottish Republican Socialists.
19

donald,

glasgow 20/04/2008 07:00:12
They closed down all the Scottish Union and the SCWS in the late 60's/early 70's. They also got rid of Bill Speirs in favour of right wing unionists, like Grahame Smith and are plotting to get rid of the Scottish TUC, because of the growing number of Scottish Republican Socialists.
20

Anus (the SNP campaigner),

20/04/2008 07:10:45
Yeah, masters dahn saff and that. Get it up ye. The unions are getting clued up (like most SNP voters) on the political side.

Union is bad, Independence is different because it is not bad. SNP are good. The unions obviously have been educated to understand this complex analysis.
21

donald,

glasgow 20/04/2008 07:20:57
The Hootsman "fact" said in the foundation of the modern SNP amalgamation of the different elements that they agreed upon "Dominion Status".

Dominion Status was a unifying tactic, such as Canada, Australia, NZ, etc, to gain maximum support and unity. Irish Nationalists used this tactic at first. There was right wing elements in the 1934 founding SNP, under Alexander Dewar Gibb, from Cathcart and Glasgow University, but were overshadowed by Republican Socialists, such as Hugh MacDiarmind, Oliver Brown, Douglas Young, etc. RB Cunninghame Graham and Dr Clarke, and other founder members of the original Scottish Labour Party, before it was taken over and neutered by London. Graham and Clarke were Chair and Secy of the Old Scottish Labour Party
22

missing home,

la verne 20/04/2008 07:32:09
Senga Jean, you're ma kinda lassie!
23

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 20/04/2008 08:16:01
Q: What have the Scottish National Front, er, Party and Zanu PF in common?

A: Both require the population to keep voting until they get it 'right'; and then, no more voting please, we're too busy with our noses in the trough.
24

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 20/04/2008 08:22:10
Hear that the poll has not been published this week either.
This will be our first Sunday without the SoS and we will not be buying it again until the full results of the poll are published.
If more people feel strongly enough about this maybe we can influence the editor.
25

Tynietiger,

20/04/2008 08:30:20
#24

It's the pro establishment SoS that is delaying poll results until they get it right.

STUC still playing games as rearranged timetable so that Bendy Wendy gets opportunity to speak day after Alex Salmond.
26

karinxxx,

20/04/2008 08:38:34
the poll is not being published because it shows complete support for independence. If you want proof have you noticed that the articles are slightly less biased this week that is because the sos knows it is now alienating its readers so in an attempt to get them back on side is trying to run less labour are great articles.
27

karinxxx,

20/04/2008 08:39:46
auld twa

do what others do buy the sunday herald and read mr hutcheon. Hes great.
28

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 20/04/2008 08:57:19
If and when the future of the union is debated at the STUC, the brothers and sisters will vote for its retention. Mark my words.
29

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 20/04/2008 08:58:30
25

If you are genuine in your disapproval, you wouldn't be on this forum. Be off with you.
30

Mikey,

20/04/2008 09:04:34
Rules, ye dinnae half talk a load a keech!!!
31

Mikey,

20/04/2008 09:06:03
Larkhall will be like a ghost town on independence day!
32

Ghostman,

Highland 20/04/2008 09:06:23
This country should have been independent a long time ago.good luck but think of who will run it.Salmond is a buffoon and the rest are very dodgy indeed, Don't get carried away with yourselves.we see this gung ho attitude every time we are involved in a major sporting event and where do we end up.Catching the early flight home!
33

Linda,

Edinburgh 20/04/2008 09:20:07
Independence will get rid of Labour's dependency culture that has stifled Scotland for the past 50 years.
34

Calum Crubag,

20/04/2008 09:22:30
Will an independent country be run by the SNP? Surely an independent Scotland could chose as Ireland does.

It has always struck me as strange that the unions would want to align themselves with such an imperialist right-wing concept as British Nationalism. Time to leave it behind.

As to Wendy - she's being offy silent on Labour's 10p tax problems.
35

JimC,

Kilmarnock 20/04/2008 09:39:01
I have to agree with Bob Christie above, however I would add that if Unison are supporting a referendum you can be sure they have another agenda. I watched for years as unison officials saw their posts as stepping stones to comfy MP or MSP seats. Could this be a ploy to force a referendum before support for an Independent Scotland grows to an extent where it is just conceivable that the SNP would succeed?
36

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 20/04/2008 09:45:11
#32 Mikey

I guess, from your poor language skills and lack of reasoned argument, that you are a typical SNP voter.
37

A Voice From Scotland,

Shanghai 20/04/2008 09:47:22
The aroma of coffee has drifted into 333 Woodlands Road Glasgow, along with the dulcet tones of a fat lady singing.

Looking forward to seeing Alex Salmond destroying Labour in his speech today and leading us to independence.

The way things are going for Maggie Broon independence could be a lot closer than we think. Remember the Berlin wall......
38

A Voice From Scotland,

20/04/2008 09:55:14
#38.. Typical unionist attempted smearing. To compare the SNP with fascism is not new amongst the bankrupt unionist zoomers. Suffice to say that these tactics are what has driven the increase in SNP membership and the number of people who will now vote for an independent Scotland, so thanks for that please keep it coming.

As to reasoned argument, where is the unionist reasoned argument? You never had one. So all you have left is propaganda, rhetoric, and cringing sneering, all done from fear. As I said bankrupt words from a financially and morally bankrupt Labour spin machine, begone begone there are windows to lick.
39

brownlie,

20/04/2008 09:58:46
38 Rules etc

Quite right, rules, the nats should post reasoned arguments like your post where you refer, without giving reasons, to the nats as national front and Zanu etc. That really baffle the nats with your wise and balanced rhetoric.
40

It wassnae me,

20/04/2008 10:03:24
Independence would be great if Westminster are prepared to agree to hand over public services in a fair and equitable way. My fear is they won't. We will get stitched up from day one. No Council Tax Rebate, no Block Grant, no NHS, no Social Security etc. The SNP have been a breath of fresh air but no one within the administration has explained how independence is going to work and how this new country is going to be funded. The current system may be bad - but what is proposed could be a lot worse i.e. higher tax and lower public services.
41

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 10:05:19
41. On reflection, I think we Unionists would prefer less talk of election debacles and breaking electoral law! I think this will only invite Nat-types to mention Labour's admitted 120 breaches of electoral law, illegal donations, sleaze, Jersey, DRS, and that silly old judge who said Labour party election fraud "would grace a banana republic".

42

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 10:10:53
41. On reflection, I think we Unionists want to see less talk of control freakery or the SNP being Tories, because some Nat will just bring this up...:

"Brown, according to Sir Menzies Campbell's autobiography, tried to cobble together a third Labour/LibDem coalition deal. He also tried to block Alex Salmond's path to becoming first minister by suggesting Labour MSPs vote for either LibDem leader Nicol Stephen or Tory Annabel Goldie for the top job."

43

brownlie,

20/04/2008 10:11:02
43 UIB

Good morning

Surely the judge said "would disgrace a banana republic"?
44

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 10:16:33
45. Ah, Brownlie, yes, (I was changing Highland Mighty's nappy there, so was distracted) - yes, indeed, the judge in the election fraud and corruption trial said that Labour Party election fraud "would disgrace a banana republic" - so on the whole I think we Unionists should steer clear of Zanu PF/ election debacle slurs on the SNP until people have forgotten that and all the hoo-hah around illegal donations.

45

Pomodora,

Gravesend 20/04/2008 10:18:37
Ho Hum; How the Scots love to talk..just talk..about Independence. But keep dreaming and maybe someone will write a song about it and revive Vera Lynn to sing it.
46

brownlie,

20/04/2008 10:23:58
47 Pomodora

Very wise and sensible contribution to the unionist cause. Keep it up.
47

Jim P,

Netherlands 20/04/2008 10:53:42
Eddie Barnes still can't get it right. "Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander" says he.

Wendy is the leader of the Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament, no more. She doesn't speak for the membership, has no power over the unions and answers to her boss in London.
48

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 20/04/2008 12:09:53
24 Rulesbutnosolutions

I see drawing analogies is not one of your strong points.
49

Lauwrie,

London, England. 20/04/2008 12:14:41
"It is simply untenable for them to argue that over £400m of Scotland's money should be swiped by the UK Government --"

Bearing in mind that Scotland has swiped upwards of £75 billion of England's money, not including interest, since 1976 , its highly tenable.
50

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 12:17:36
52. Well said. Scotland has swiped £250 billion of England's oil and gas revenues since 1982 as well!
51

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 20/04/2008 12:21:20
Like most sensible organisations this trade union recognises that the uncertainty in Scotland regarding the neverendum debate instigated by the nationalists should be brought to a head sooner rather than later.

Lets call the SNP's bluff once and for all - put the pros and the cons to the people and then have a Yes or No vote on so-called independence.

What is essential is that for the vast majority of Scots who find politics and the constitutional arguments a big turnoff, the politicians here in Scotland and the rest of the UK need to stop all this navel gazing and get on with making proper decisions about the issues that really make a difference to people lives on health, educuation, and our local economy.

The fact is that we are all northern Europeans with a shared need to develop within the EU structure and if we don't now see this "bigger picture" our whole interlinked economic and social framework will become second rate in comparison to the emerging global giants such as China, India as well as the USofA.

Sad supporters of narrow mined nationalism are traitors to any nation and its longterm well being.
52

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 12:26:57
54. As a British Unionist and strident supporter of the Bristish Nation I find you last paragraph offensive.
53

European Scot,

20/04/2008 12:45:40
54 Liberal for Life

"The fact is that we are all northern Europeans with a shared need to develop within the EU structure and if we don't now see this "bigger picture" our whole interlinked economic and social framework will become second rate in comparison to the emerging global giants such as China, India as well as the USofA."

You are absolutely right.
Yet you can't see an Independent Scotland working successfully within this European framework.
A Scotland that is able to represent itself as any of the other smaller nations do within the European Union.
You fall back to your Unionist, British standpoint, immediately removing the opportunity for Scotland to speak for itself, vote, influence, discuss, whatever.
Do you really prefer to see it as a silent partner within Europe represented by the UK.
I would rather have Scotland directly connected to the European Union and the UN. It would be far better to conduct business face to face, rather than through Westminster representatives.
An outward looking Scotland dealing not only with Europe, but also the rest of the World.
You don't need a Union within a Union.
Better individual countries get on with business on their own terms.
As for your comment about narrow minded Nationalism, that would include the British variety, so favoured by one Gordon Brown.
54

Calum Crubag,

20/04/2008 13:33:46
#54 - Liberal for life. I agree. Nationalism is ALWAYS bad as exemplified by Mandela's terrorist ANC. Not to mention the evil Ghandi. Similarly, Ireland should be forced to rejoin the UK as their maintenance of an independent nation is sad and narrow minded. The USA too should apologise for their narrow-mindedness is fighting to be 'free' from London rule.

Next step - outlaw offensive nationalist nonsense like God Save the Queen, Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Brittania. Ditch the Union flag too. Why should Brit Nationalism escape our Liberal wrath?
55

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 13:51:51
57. Rubbish, Liberal for Life, and myself, as Brit Nat Unionists, fully support independence and self determination for Kosovo, East Timor, The Czech republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania and many other places.

However, we can have no truck with independence or self-determination in Scotland as that would be disruptive to our British Nationalism! British Jobs for British Workders! Onward the Union!
56

Cockhungrycumbucket,

20/04/2008 14:41:46
Independence makes me hot!
57

Can-Scot,

Pickering 20/04/2008 14:51:04
The STUC can discuss all they want, and indeed they should.

However they must acknowledge that, ultimately, this is a matter for the Scottish people AT THE BALLOT BOX!!!

Rob.
58

Mikey,

20/04/2008 15:11:55
Rules, I converse with you in one sentence becuase you're a unionist and more than one sentence would confuse you.
59

A Voice From Scotland,

Shanghai 20/04/2008 16:56:46
#54. The numpty unionist clan had their chance to vote down Salmonds budget and just could not find the spine to do it as another election would have seen them of for good.

Spineless supine lick spittles the lot of you, that has been the story of unionism. Supreme deference to your Westminster bosses, doff the cap, bend the knee, yes Sir no Sir three bags full Sir, we are but thick Scottish peasants not fit to govern our own country, here sir take my taxes and hand me what you think I am worth.

Your Westminster mistress awaits you to walk all over you with her jack boots and grind your nose into your own filth and you love it, you get of on it, you poor sad masochists have betrayed your nation through fear, now back to your wet bed you coward, nanny has a good thrashing for you.
60

Eve,

Scotland 20/04/2008 17:04:32
#59: What!!! Youer a meber of BNP!!!!! Aren't you!!!!


61

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 17:16:34
64. Certainly not you SNP loon with 1` exclamation marks in one line. I, like all Unionists, campaign for the British Nation!
62

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 20/04/2008 17:31:33
Independence will never be given by Westminster the MP,s there will cling to power as long as possible simply to protect their large salaries their large pensions their large expense accounts etc etc. whilst the Labour party are in disarray in Scotland and England the time is right for the SNP to not only get more seats at Westminster but to seriously try to liase with the large population in England who want independence too.Remember divided we fall united we win
63

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 20/04/2008 17:32:29
sorry forgot to mention their own egos
64

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 20/04/2008 17:35:05
SCOTLAND INDEPENDENCE NOW
CASEY PURVIS
65

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 20/04/2008 17:36:00
#65 Union:So why act like one?

Would love to sit in type but my beepers going!!!!
66

Brian M,

Edinburgh 20/04/2008 17:36:03
The unions should stay out of politics.

They are there to assist their members at work, and they do a sterling job.
67

Agent 99,

20/04/2008 17:36:39
[65] You are deluded. "British Nation" is an oxymoron. That has been proven time and time again here.

I suspect you're just a johnny come lately or perhaps AM2 on a rough night. Either way, you lose.
68

McX,

20/04/2008 17:40:09
#66 Raymond, do you no longer want to be British?
69

Eve,

Scotland 20/04/2008 17:42:16
#68 CASEY PURVIS: You can say that again!!!
70

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 20/04/2008 17:44:07
#72 McX: Whats that?
71

Eve,

Scotland 20/04/2008 17:46:03
Sorry coundnae rested that!
72

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 17:46:52
69. In what way, Eve (!!!!!!!!), did I act like a BNP member?
73

Eve,

Scotland 20/04/2008 18:02:10
#766 Union: So sorry, I should have explained!!!

You said this typical BNP slogan, which most people in Scotland including me know this:
"British Jobs for British Workders" I know that Gorden Brown has said this in resent months BUT some things he says does sound a wee bit BNP at times.

You also said: "fully support independence and self determination for Kosovo, East Timor, The Czech republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania and many other places."
Not a directly saying of the BNP BUT most creaintly goes with they purely Brittish cruel/guff campaign so to speak. It has a hint of I don't care what happen out side this group of ilands and also shows a need for wanting to control everything that is possible to control within these ilands.

I'm sorry for being so quick to label, would you like some freshly bake wholemeal bread. mmm yummy nutrious and no long out of the oven.

74

brownlie,

20/04/2008 18:03:07
63 A voice

So can we take it you favour the status quo, then?
75

brownlie,

20/04/2008 18:07:45
77 Eve

I think you should carefully read previous posts by Union is Best before you draw conclusions!!
76

Eve,

Scotland bonnie Scotland 20/04/2008 18:16:09
#79 The Spook in Leith: What post exsacly? I've read 59 again and it still has an elment of bigotry in it!!!
AND how much slower am I supose to read?

I don't speed read, cause of the dyslexia. I'm no speeding 30min analising the post. NOT when I've got an application form to fill out.
77

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 18:16:44
77. Good grief Eve!! I quote Gordon Brown, our most British of Prime Ministers of this British land, calling for "British Jobs for British Workers" and you label me some kind of BNP reactionary? For shame!
78

European Scot,

20/04/2008 18:19:24
81 Eve

UIB is a vitamin beneficial to people who enjoy Independence.
Those who suffer from a Unionist complaint can find it gets under their skin, causing severe irritation.
Blemishes break out on the surface, usually red, white and blue.
Occasionally there may be displays with an orange tinge.
Nothing for most of us to worry about though, the prognosis is a healthy one.
UIB contains a lot of Iron / E.
79

Eve,

Scotland 20/04/2008 18:22:15
#80 brownlie: Whats way everyone to day. Why are you and spooks ganging up on me!!!

I always read carefuly can't read any other way!

I've read a few of the poster post before and most have came across as bigioted.

It's very hurtful to put pressure on a dyslexic to read on your demand. I personaly find it more difficult to read when people put an urgent demand on something to be read.
80

European Scot,

20/04/2008 18:33:31
84 Eve

Union is Best is not to be taken at face value, there is real irony in his posts.
All is not what he seems.
We're on your side.

86 The Spook in Leith

Cheers
81

brownlie,

20/04/2008 18:33:41
84 Eve

Nothing at all wrong with your posts - I enjoy them immensely!!!
82

Union is Best,

20/04/2008 18:41:11
88. Never mind that nonsense. Alfred E/ Ciderman's second lobotomy reversal operation has gone wrong (i told you we should just have used ECT), need you to cover the opinion column on Salmond, I have to pop out and get Jackie another two fish suppers (am I alone in suspecting she may share something in common with Prezza?)
83

Eve,

Scotland 20/04/2008 18:49:58
A ken just so Union is Beast is on the the reason story. It's so funny that there beging to have the same arguments on that page too BUT way diffrent folk.

Anyone know why you can only be log in to one of the stories this one or that one!!! Maybe it's just my problem.

Oh and does anyone no why I've got a window of the times about Beaver and whats way it? Cause I got a wee bit distracted with ma baking, the day. What way the beeper going off every so often.
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Eve,

Scotland 20/04/2008 18:54:07
What!!!

I've got plenty of freshly made wholemeal tea loaf, it's yummy BUT filling.

Helps better for you than that deep fryied noncence. that reminds me that the debate on Scotlands food ends this week and I anit said any thing on it yet!!!

85

brownlie,

20/04/2008 19:33:50
89 Union is best

Sorry - can't oblige. I am at the moment trying to convince Eve that us unionists are nice people. Just because we treat the Scottish Electorate, especially the poorer ones, with complete disregard and contempt does not mean that we deserve to be hounded by the nats who appear to be getting more numerous by the day despite what Highland claims.

PS I hear his piles are giving him gyp and he's not going to hold his famous grouse parties this year.

PPS I still have not forgiven the spook for his comments last week about Jackie's folds.
86

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 20/04/2008 20:14:01
*72McX
I have not felt British for some time . I still believe however that the UK Nations can be independent inall matters, probably with the exception of defence but even then I would love to be neutralan d free fromthe EU.
I believe we can all be succesful and because of our history we would support each other when necessary
87

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 20/04/2008 21:23:04
#55,56,57 et al - the key words in my post re nationalism are "narrow minded" and your posts show you are guilty of exhibiting the kind of behaviour I find repulsive.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the desire to main a cultural identity but when taken to the extremes and even the Irish took it to the extreme in my opinion, then the very embodiment of narrow minded nationalism as I would define it is utterly offensive and reprehensible. Scotland is a fully democratic entity and is FREE at the moment. We are not under English rule nor are we threatened by imminent invasion by our allies in the union of the nation states that comprise the British isles. All this hot air from the SNP supporters is nonsense and I'll keep repeating the fact it is narrow minded nationalism until common sense prevails once again.

Outwith their independence agenda what exactly defines the SNP anyway? Nothing! End of story.
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Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 20/04/2008 21:54:59
The police search for a 'reasoned unionist case' is about to be given up. It was reported missing some time ago and there are no clues as to its whereabouts.

A police spokesman said they had received one anonymous phone call and the caller said they saw it being abducted by people they described as "dangerous and shifty looking".

The police have warned that no-one is safe in the country whilst they are at large.
89

Hamish Scott,

20/04/2008 22:03:54
#97
"Outwith their independence agenda what exactly defines the SNP anyway? Nothing! End of story."

Well spotted!
90

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 20/04/2008 22:08:34
#98- Aye, sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me.

You exemplify the diametrically opposed views that I am happy to disagree with for ever and a day. When you are lost for sensible argument you resort to insult - typical !
91

European Scot,

20/04/2008 22:10:55
97 Liberal for Life

" the key words in my post re nationalism are "narrow minded" and your posts show you are guilty of exhibiting the kind of behaviour I find repulsive.

As for your comment about repulsive behaviour, well I can honestly say, that is not something I have ever been accused of in my entire life, so there must be a rather large question mark over your judgemental powers.
If Scotland is 'FREE' at the moment perhaps you could explain why so many of its 'powers' are reserved to Westminster.
You could also point out exactly where 'FREE' Scotland sits at the UN or at the European table, I must have missed it.
You are so critical of 'narrow minded nationalism', yet are quite happy to defend all things British, as if that for some reason isn't nationalism.
Is this what you call common sense prevailing ?
Finally your last little gem.
" Outwith their independence agenda what exactly defines the SNP anyway? Nothing! End of story."
If this is what passes for carefully considered, and reasoned argument, then again I must have missed something.
92

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 20/04/2008 22:17:16
I think it is time we nationalists considered our position for when England votes Tory at the next general election.

Labour will elect an English leader and the Tories are largely alien to Scots anyway. This is an opportunity to effect another tranche of Labour votes to the SNP. Who will stick up for Scotland under a Tory London government? A no brainer!
93

danielrober,

20/04/2008 22:21:48
Interesting.
94

Jackie Priest,

20/04/2008 22:49:41
#97

To say that the desire for independence is narrow-minded is to condemn all the countries in the world who actually have independence to a status of stupidity and backwardness that is obviously more a measure of your own narrow-mindedness than anything else.

Of course, your silly little use of the allegation is an exhibition of your own narrow-mindedness given that you only apply it to Scotland and to no one else alone. (You are incapable, in other words, of thnking about Scotland in global temrs rather than in terms of the UK only, which is eaxctly why it is unionism that is narrow.minded, not the desire for independence).

You are a fine example of the hypocrisy of unionism which applies a particular value-judegement to Scotland while not even thinking about applying the same value-judgement to any other country, such as those, the majority, who already are independent and will remain so for all time.

The whole argument for the union is grounded completely in these kinds of hypocritical assumptions which are, finally, being exposed for what they are, which is exactly why indpendence for Scotland is now happening.

In short, you apply one rule to Scotland and another rule to everyone else. And this, by definition, is hypocrisy.

I live in Switzerland for the time being, but will return to Scotland when it's independent. Are you telling me that the insistence of the Swiss to remain independent of all other countires, even to the point that they refuse to participate in the EU, is a measure of their narrow-mindedness?
95

,

20/04/2008 23:08:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

Angus Ogg,

20/04/2008 23:39:51
Last post!
97

,

20/04/2008 23:47:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
98

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 21/04/2008 11:09:30
Electoral Reform Society chief executive Ken Ritchie said: "We can see no reason for the Scottish Government not having control of the Scottish Parliament elections."

We can see no reason why a foreign power should control the rigging of our vote for our independence.

Yer jist waanting tae stay rich eh?

99

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 23/04/2008 09:22:26
114 Cough Cough, I missed the double negative there......thats what I get for rushing things, apologies.

What would be interesting is what measures of the previously unbalanced voting (pro union) system will be made. Ridding our selves of block voters (owners of multiple addresses), don't know votes counting as 'no' votes and so on.
100

Rodger the Leith lodger,

edinburgh 24/04/2008 21:36:33
#105 - "so, yes yes yes, but what actually has the SNP minority government REALLY done to improve the life of the people of Scotland"? (apologies to life of brian writers)
101