Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 6th September 2008

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the Scotland On Sunday site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Salmond: 'Stone of Destiny is fake'



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 15 June 2008
THE First Minister has made the astonishing claim that the Stone of Destiny is a medieval fake.
Scotland's iconic coronation stone has been seen by tens of thousands of people since it was returned from Westminster Abbey to Edinburgh Castle in 1996.

But in a move which is sure to re-ignite debate across the country, Alex Salmond has made public his belief that the relic is no more than a replica.

The SNP leader, a keen historian, is convinced that the stone, which was looted by Edward I in 1296, was a forgery created to dupe the invading English forces. If so, it would mean that the true stone – which, according to legend, originated in the Holy Land and was used by Jacob as a pillow – still remains undiscovered.

Salmond's intervention comes as a £6m film starring Robert Carlyle and Billy Boyd, which chronicles the retrieval of the stone from Westminster Abbey in 1950, is about to hit cinema screens around the world.

There have been suggestions that a copy of the stone was made during the daring episode, which was led by a group of students, including Ian Hamilton, who went on to become a QC. Many have claimed that the late Glasgow stonemason and councillor Bertie Gray made a forgery of the stone, which was handed back to UK authorities in 1951.

But Salmond favours the argument that a patriotic monk at Scone Abbey duped the English monarch at the end of the 13th century in a hoax that has lasted for centuries.

"There are two questions that are key to the mystery of the stone," he said.

"Did the Abbot of Scone meekly surrender Scotland's most famous symbol to Edward in 1296, or did he allow him to ransack a substitute?

"Was it the real Stone of Destiny that turned up on the altar at Arbroath Abbey in 1951 after being repatriated by Ian Hamilton and friends, or was it a replica made by bailie Bertie Gray? On balance, my view is that the Abbot of Scone furnished Edward with a substitute.

"What I believe cannot be in doubt is that the stone currently in Edinburgh Castle is the one that lay in Westminster Abbey for 700 years."

But Salmond has rejected the idea of using science to get to the bottom of the mystery.

He said: "Neither question can ever be finally answered – and that is why the mystery of the stone is one best left unsolved."

Westminster Abbey spokeswoman Victoria Ribbans said: "Our belief has always been that the stone is genuine and we have no reason to believe otherwise."

The stone was removed on Christmas Day 1950 by four Scottish students, Ian Hamilton, Gavin Vernon, Kay Matheson and Alan Stuart.

In 1996, the British Government decided that the Stone should be kept in Scotland when not in use at coronations, and crossed the border on that summer.

The Stone of Destiny was returned to Scotland with due ceremony in 1996
The Stone of Destiny was returned to Scotland with due ceremony in 1996
From Jacob's pillow to Nats' touchstone

IT IS a mystery that has provoked fascination and wild speculation for more than 700 years.

According to mythology the Stone of Destiny, also known as the Lia Fail, originated in Palestine and was transported through Egypt, Sicily, Spain and Ireland before arriving in Scone in the 9th century where it was used when Scottish monarchs were crowned.

Legend has it that it was used by Jacob as a pillow in biblical times. According to others, it was used as a coronation stone by early Gaels in Ireland, and as a travelling altar by St Columba. It has even been linked to Robert the Bruce and to the Blarney Stone.

The existing documentary evidence describes the stone as round and concave, as would be expected of a seat or throne, while others have suggested the stone was black, shiny and intricately carved. Yet the object at Edinburgh Castle is shaped like a plain grey slab or block.

Professor Ted Cowan, one of Scotland's most senior historians, remained unconvinced by the medieval replica theory. The Glasgow University academic said: "I have discussed this matter with the First Minister and I know his views on this. It is perfectly fine for him to believe that the Stone is a replica, but there is the whole matter of proof. How credible is it that you can just make a replica of something like that in five minutes because Edward I of England is coming to steal the real one?"

A spokeswoman for the British Geological Survey (BGS), an independent organisation which specialises in testing and dating stones, said it would be more than willing to take a fresh look at the artefact.

But the BGS said previous research on the Stone indicated that it was "lithologically similar to the Devonian sandstones exposed around Scone Palace".

Mineralogist Dr Neil Fortey said it strongly resembled sandstone from Quarry Mill on the Scone estate.

The First Minister is championing the view that the Stone of Destiny is a fake. Alex Salmond has revealed he believes the iconic artefact is little more than a 13th-century replica.

The Stone was famously stolen from Westminster Abbey on Christmas Day in 1950 by four Glasgow University students and taken to Scotland. The story is told in a new film, titled Stone Of Destiny.

The Stone was returned to a repaired Coronation Chair for the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II in 1953.

Former Lib Dem MSP Donald Gorrie has long questioned the Stone's authenticity and called for a "sensible scientific study".

The late writer and historian Nigel Tranter believed the object Edward took to London was "a lump of Scone sandstone".

Historic Scotland has always claimed to be "confident" that the Stone is genuine.

The full article contains 950 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 June 2008 10:54 PM
  • Source: Scotland On Sunday
  • Location: Scotland
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Al Ford,

Insch 15/06/2008 00:01:58
Does it matter? What matters is that the object in question is generally and reasonably considered to be the Stone of Destiny. What happens to it therefore seems to matter to a great many people.

On the two occasions upon which I saw it when it was displayed within the English coronation chair it seemed to me that what it symbolized for many was such that it should not be where it was.

We were told that the Stone of Destiny could not be returned to us, but eventually it was returned nevertheless. What is believed to be impossible at one point in time becomes possible at another point in time. We were told that we could not have a parliament again, but there it is, boldly standing defiantly before the gates of the royal palace. We are told that we cannot have independence, but the fact that the Stone of Destiny is back in our hands may be taken to represent the fact that our destiny is in our hands, as those who removed the Stone from Westminster Abbey in 1950 sought to demonstrate.

Since the Stone was returned to Scotland officially in 1996 substantial constitutional change has occurred. One wonders what constitutional changes will take place over the next 12 years. One thing is certain: constitutional change is certain within that period and beyond.
2

SNPfighter101,

15/06/2008 00:12:27
MR. SALMOND YOU MAKE ME WISH TO CHANGE MY SCREEN NAME!
First you want to build national pride and then declare a massive part of history to be fake?
3

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 00:47:46
Mr Salmond is also a Historian.

Every Historian has his/her opinion about the course of history and the myths and theories that exist with history.
4

Highland Mighty,

15/06/2008 00:51:28
"But Salmond has rejected the idea of using science to get to the bottom of the mystery."

That says it all.
5

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 01:02:30
Highland Mighty.

He said: "Neither question can ever be finally answered – and that is why the mystery of the stone is one best left unsolved."

If the history behind something is more interesting then the public will respect and take more interest in it.
6

,

15/06/2008 01:32:09
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

,

15/06/2008 01:32:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

Senga Jean,

15/06/2008 01:32:54
Alex Salmond wishes a modern Scotland to be be Independent and is not in favour of historical keich. I support him totally.
9

Joseph Gibson,

Stevenston 15/06/2008 01:56:14

Sorry... I do not support the SNP in an Independant Scotland. They claim to be this and that, but people forget what nationalism is! There priority should be Scotland and the scottish people first, not having our people multicoloured as our tartan as they have said, thats not nationalism! and I honestly believe that once Scotland is Independant, everything we've achieved throughout history will be gone! and what right do we have to it when we just throw it away!!!!???? NONE. Because we'd join the EU, and already the EU is a fale, and a US wannabe. And hurting Scotland's heritage.

Sorry had to say this. Yer, every historian has their opinion.
10

Colin P,

15/06/2008 02:43:47
There is one train of thought which persists throughout all your cryptic sh1te, and that is...the true Stone of Destiny will be unveiled once Scotland becomes independent once again.

Sort of romantic history, yes, but we Scots have a knack for that, don't we?
11

Guga II,

Rockall 15/06/2008 03:02:44
"The Stone was famously stolen from Westminster Abbey"

This is the Hootsmon repeating the lies and propaganda once again. The stone was not "stolen" from Westminster Abbey, it was stolen from Scotland and retrieved from Westminster Abbey.

You can't steal your own property.

The stone should never be allowed to cross the border again.
12

FrancesP,

15/06/2008 03:13:24
A typical misuse of language in the opening paragraph. The First Minister was not making an 'astonishing claim', he was reiterating a widely held - if not universally accepted - viewpoint. An 'astonishing' claim would be something more along the lines of "George Foulkes is radioactive haddock, claims Salmond".
13

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/06/2008 03:17:57
Real or fake It does'nt matter this stone is irrelevant,

What matters the scottish people who were oppressed by their Kings Queens,Clan Chiefs,Lairds and all the rest of their kind up to this very day.
14

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/06/2008 03:29:52
#27 cont.. And the Church who collaborated those oppressors.
15

W Smith,

Middle East 15/06/2008 04:05:31
1) It must be comforting for those who have lost their jobs in East Kilbride to know that the First Minister feels he should prattle on first about Trident and now about the friggin Stone of Destiny!

2) In Italy some catholic churches claim to have 'real pieces' of the cross and or nails from the cross, etc.

In my opinion, this is a load of superstitious nonsense and the Stone of Destiny is of the same ilk - but it proves superstition is alive and well in Scotland.

3) Funny how The Scotsman can't bring itself to talk about Jacob, THE JEW, who was supposed to have first used this stone as a pillow.

While sleeping Jacob is said to have seen angels descending and ascending on a ladder.

Mind you this is the newspaper that ran the healine "With friends like Israel - Who Needs Iran?".
16

Conan the Librarian™,

15/06/2008 04:49:23
29
"In my opinion, this is a load of superstitious nonsense and the Stone of Destiny is of the same ilk - but it proves superstition is alive and well in Scotland."
Ah. The first Minister debunks a myth, yet you use the story to denigrate your countrymen.

Why?
17

Willie Macleod,

Wick 15/06/2008 05:16:55
#30 Conan Morning Conan or hav'nt you been to bed like me.

Just off now to get a few hours sleep.

Catch up with you later

Omnia vincit Amor

18

Kenny A,

15/06/2008 06:18:49
Mr Gibson at 21

What exact colour is a Scotsman.

Red haired Celtic (a myth by the way), Blond Scandanavian or dark middle eastern looking like the Picts were reported to be.

I will assume you are on about immigration not a persons colour.

Apart from that the rest of your post makes little sense.
19

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 15/06/2008 06:44:05
As I understand the old coronations, the King stood upon the stone holding his sword while his lineage was recited by a monk to all assembled. There would never have been any shiny backsides upon it. While it was held at Scone it was not from Scone hence if it is the same as stone from the local quarry then the abbot could have easily got another stone for Edward to steal. Time Team had better come North and do some digging. Will Charles be Charles III or Charles IV of Scotland?
20

puskas,

East kilbride 15/06/2008 06:53:32
The Apache American indian originated from the middle east ..

Fact or myth ?
21

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 06:57:52
### 17 ####

Senga Jean

DO come to Einburgh, and in particular, the Royal Mile and Princes Street, where the tourists and natives are bombarded with enough Scottish kitsch to last several lifetimes.

All the tartan tat shops withkilts for £19.99 draped around the doors, the hellish canned bagpipe musak, 'Scottish' (made in China) knick-knackery........

To think that but for Sir Walter Scott who started all this 'heritage' drivel in 1822, followed with Victoria and 'balmorality', then Harry Lauder, Andy Stewart and the White Heather Club, then the Corries with the dirge-like, backward-looking 'Flower of Scotland'

---- we wouldn't have had all this 'Scottish kitsch' at all.

Still, it keeps the tourists and the natives happy.
22

spiderman,

Argyll 15/06/2008 07:18:02
The scientific evidence shows that the stone is typical of Scone sandstone. Therefore it's not from Palestine. It's a fake. What's the problem? Salmond's right!
23

1745,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 07:18:32
What Alex Salmond says is correct anyone who has studied Scottish history knows that the real stone of Scone is made of black basalt and is inscribed with hieroglyphs.The stone was hidden from the English and tradition says that one family in Scotland holds the key to it's location not to be revealed until Scotland is free.Edward knew he had been sold a pup,for he had ordered a golden chair to be made to hold the Stone but when he saw the lump of sandstone , he had the chair made of wood.
24

Bramley,

15/06/2008 07:21:33
The only "astonishing" thing about your story is that you seem unaware of the history of the stone. There are many books and articles about it. Try using Google to find out more. I don't always agree with Salmond but on this one, he's absolutely right. The Scots passed off a fake on the English King - it's nothing but a "cludgie stane".
25

izzie,

dundee 15/06/2008 07:35:31
Charles will become George VII and William King Billy whatever - Why is this paper ignoring the Wendy Alexander donations story as featured in the Herald??
26

mrsbruce,

Livingston 15/06/2008 07:48:35
So the arguement that a fake was not handed to Edward is based on the assumtion that they couldn't make a replica in 5 minutes.

It looks like local stone, there there's a bloomin' good chance t IS local stone.

If an army is marching over a hill, someone would have noticed, and mentioned it, giving them time to 'dispose' of the original stone.

Methinks they had enough gumption to grab a lump of local stone and go 'There you are mate'.
27

redandwhitehoops,

east kilbride 15/06/2008 08:10:59
The Scotsman printed a booklet on the "Scottish Wars of Independence" a few months back,as a saturday supplement. According to their booklet, the real stone was likely to have been spirited away before Edward arrived, as it was well known he was on his way to get it, after touring Scotland destroying and pilfering the symbolic relics of Scotland's Nationhood. This is my belief also, especially after seeing the stone, which looks like a standard block of sandstone. Edward took it, as the genuine stone, although he probably knew it to be nothing more than a lump of sandstone, because to have done otherwise he would have acknowledged that he had been denied the real one. The stone in the castle is the one from westminster, it's just that neither are or were the real Stone of Destiny. Which is Alex Salmond's point.
28

lulach mac gille coemgain,

15/06/2008 08:12:29
One thing is for sure - fake or otherwise - there is more intelligence in that stone that all of the Labour party put together!
29

Richardinho,

15/06/2008 08:23:02
The most important implication of the stone not being the real one is that it means every English monarch crowned on it is not a legitimate Scottish monarch.
30

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 15/06/2008 08:23:24
If The Scotsman were not so ignorant of Scottish affairs generally it would know that this story is not new and "astonishing". This theory that the Westminster stone is a fake has been around for generations, and is backed up by a fair amount of circumstantial evidence. The Abbot of Scone had six weeks' warning of the approach of the English army and had ample time to hide the original and substitute a block of local building stone. We in the Scotland-UN Committee knew this when we had the issue of the Stone of Destiny raised in the United Nations back in the 1980s, which raised a fair amount of dust internationally. Whether the Westminster stone was genuine or not was not the central point. The issue was that a Scottish national heirloom was being paraded under the backside of the English king in order to demonstrate Scotland's subservience - centuries after the English had been forced by treaty to abandon all claims on Scotland. More to the point would be finding out what happened to the ceremonially carved stone that was discovered in 1912 in an underground chamber on the site of King Macbeth's castle in Perthshire, and was taken to London for examination, since when nothing has been heard of it.

31

,

15/06/2008 08:23:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

john z,

edinburgh 15/06/2008 08:27:07
Some people are missing the point. The notion that the stone of destiny may be fake has ben around for a very long time. Alex Salmond is merely saying that he is of the opinion that that particular viewpoint is correct.

Either way, I look forward to the film, as I think this is one of the great yarns of a modern age - six Scottish students nicking the stone of destiny from under the English throne in London - what a hoot. It's a pity Glasgow (or any) University doesn't produce free thinkers like that anymore.

Mind you, if they did it now, they'd probably be held under the 42 day rule, as suspected terrorists, then sent to Guantanamo bay.

Real or fake, it is good the stone is no longer kept UNDER the English throne in London - which is where it never should be. If any royalty want to sit on it, they can come to Scotland, and show some respect this time around!
33

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:27:32
Salmond's £2000 grant for first time home buyers is also fake.
34

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:29:35
Salmond's primary school class size reduction is also fake.
35

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:31:51
Salmond's proposed unfair local income tax is also fake. What is local about it?
36

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

15/06/2008 08:33:52
Salmond's green credentials are also fake as was witnessed by his recent air and car trip to Manchester and his car trips to George Street.
37

bring them on,

15/06/2008 08:36:08
It's not as if we are talking about the Lork Ark here.

A lump of stone, is a lump of stone.
38

Alberto.,

15/06/2008 08:36:55
I may be the odd one out here!

It may be due to something in the water - or the air, possibly by being more concerned about the 'here and now and the future' over all else, but, somewhere in the depths of my mind, considering the state of the Country and the World in these days of enormous Political control - and great failures, it, seems to me that there are far more important issues that should be grabbing the attention of the 'Alleged' political leader of the Country, than his apparent serious, and seemingly overwhelming concern for a piece of masonry - no matter its interesting history to the Country!

Come along First Minister, each to his own field - i.e.Politicians for a better NOW and a better FUTURE - leave stonework to those who deal in such matters - like the DIY stores and such, who are no doubt far more expert in that / their field than any politician.
39

Mikey,

15/06/2008 08:44:04
Lia Fail is a fake? So what? Most Scots have known this for years. Even SLAB boys know this but are terrified to say so in case they let it slip that Scotland was independent until 1707.

I would rather we debated the 'Great Michael' than Lia Fail.
40

Boy Wonder,

15/06/2008 08:51:13
Of course it's a fake! It's been commented on as such for centuries!
41

Ananurhing,

15/06/2008 08:55:06
I thought it was fairly common knowledge that the stone is a fake. The original was supposed to be made from black igneous rock, and intricately carved. It was allegedly hidden in Dull church in Perthshire along with the Scottish crown jewels etc. Then hidden under Dunsinane hill.
In '96 when Micheal Forsyth paraded the return of the fake stone, I had premises on the Royal Mile. A friend and myself painted a fifty foot long banner with the statement, BEWARE GEEKS BEARING GIFTS! Slightly inebreated at the time.
Unfortunately, or probably thankfully, my wife removed the banner early in the morning, before the parade.
After she'd finished slapping me, she pointed out that had it been left in place, we would have had visits from more EDC inspectors than you shake your business rates final demand at. She was of course quite right.
Shame though. I felt Forsyth's role in this was quite facetious and objectionable.
42

Steve,

15/06/2008 08:55:48
The real stone of destiny is in a building somewhere on the north bank of the river tay. Is is encased in plaster, and is disguised as part of the building. It will be revealed when Scotland regains her independence.

43

Col. Blimp­IV*,

15/06/2008 09:06:08
#53 Mikey

Few people know who great Michael was!

A figure from the Scottish Dark Ages ; "Dawn of Time-135AD, 160AD-1296 and 1314-1603".
44

,

15/06/2008 09:08:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

foulkes had my name removed'the t0sser',

Scone palace staff toilets 15/06/2008 09:15:57
Get it tested properly and lets see what happens.It may very well be a fake but I think for the sake of Scottish history we should at least keep an open mind!
46

A big boy dun it an ran away,

15/06/2008 09:23:21
Geeza break you guys need tae git oot the hoose a bit mair.
47

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 09:27:15
Alberto (52): "it, seems to me that there are far more important issues that should be grabbing the attention of the 'Alleged' political leader of the Country"

Agreed. The simple fact that Salmond views this as an important issue is surprising. To provide perspective, how would Scots feel if, say, David Davis began to discuss the possible location of Harold Godwinson's body after the Battle of Hastings? Devoting nationalist attention to a possibly spurious piece of stone which, even if genuine, was removed from Scotland in the 13th century, is irrational.
48

sm753,

15/06/2008 09:28:54
44 Dr Wilkie

"We in the Scotland-UN Committee knew this when we had the issue of the Stone of Destiny raised in the United Nations back in the 1980s, which raised a fair amount of dust internationally."

"More to the point would be finding out what happened to the ceremonially carved stone that was discovered in 1912 in an underground chamber on the site of King Macbeth's castle in Perthshire, and was taken to London for examination, since when nothing has been heard of it."

Documentation and evidence, please.
49

Citylocal Fife,

Fife News 15/06/2008 09:41:50
This story is not news, it's just a well padded out version of something that most sane people knew to be true, and could have been covered in two sentences.
50

Melly,

Sussex 15/06/2008 09:44:04
The real Stone of Scone was buried up in Kinnoull Hill before the English got to Scone. Everybody in Perth knows that.
51

King O The Picts,

BLIND UTOPIA 15/06/2008 09:52:04
When it comes to people innocent until proven guilty.
When it comes to artifacts I am with Alex fake till proven real.
Any one with even a rudimentary history of Lea Fail knows that the real stone was Jet it was round it had characters carved on it, and in no way would a man of religion of old let a treasure such as this fall into the hand of his enemys.
With you on this one Alex.
I stood next to this lump of rock at the castle and I felt nothing from it absolutely nothing not even a twitch.
I cant give you more than this, my guts tell me FAKE.
52

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 09:56:56
Salmond's mischief making is nothing knew as many similar claims have been made down through the ages?

IF, as he claims, the real stone was saved and the suspect 'Stone of Scone' forceably removed from medieval Scotland is not the genuine talisman of the Scots Kings, then the coronation of each and every English monarch at Westminster Abbey ever since has been completely devalued in its significance!


53

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 09:59:51
This is an outrage:



Wendy Alexander faces Holyrood ban after watchdog's guilty verdict
Electoral commission admits: 'We allowed politicians to break the law on election finances for five years'
By Paul Hutcheon, Scottish Political Editor
Comment | Read Comments (76)
LABOUR LEADER Wendy Alexander faces a Holyrood ban after a parliamentary sleaze watchdog found her guilty of breaking the rules on MSPs' conduct by not declaring donations to her leadership campaign.

The Sunday Herald understands Holyrood's standards commissioner Jim Dyer has issued a report to a parliamentary committee stating Alexander should have declared most of her £16,000 leadership campaign war chest as gifts.


54

Grant,

Scotland 15/06/2008 10:05:20
A more appropriate headline would be; "First Minister agrees with what most Scots think about the Stone of Destiny - Shock" or "First Minister speaks common sense about the Stone of Destiny".

#Alberto (52) and Fairfax (61)

Who says Salmond believes this to be "important"? He has stated his opinion on the matter - and I believe that was at a relevant function he was attending in his capacity as First Minister. Nothing more. He didn't make a statement in the Scottish Parliament on the issue, neither has he instructed the Scottish Government to issue a consultation document on the matter. I sincerely doubt he is using vast swathes of his time as First Minister to pontificate on the issue.

I suppose the chippy Unionist media in Scotland may make a great deal of hay with his opinion, but as has been stated above, this is not something that is exactly "new" to most people in Scotland who have a passing interest in the issue. I was still at Primary school when the Stone was "returned" to Scotland in 1996 and it was common currency back then to refer to it as a fake - and increasingly that is with very good reason.
55

Col. Blimp­IV*,

15/06/2008 10:08:12
#67 Union is Best

None of that can be true..."The Scotsman" makes no mention of it.

Strange that Wendy has been practically invisible these last few weeeks though.
56

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 10:10:05
61. Well said, the First Minister should not answer questions put to him...in the context of interest in this story from journalists at the moment because of a film about to be released..... and clearly answering the question has wasted at least 30 seconds he should have devoted to something we Unionists approve of... such as detaining people without charge, ID cards, more nuclear weapons for the Clyde...
57

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 10:10:49
69. I believe Wendy may have been detained without charge by the UK Labour leadership, she may be released in 6 weeks... we are campaigning for her
58

Iain's,

Barcelona 15/06/2008 10:13:26
They say that, here in Spain, there are enough pieces of the True Cross to built Noah's Ark.

I am equally sure that the Stone is not Jacob's pillow.

So what!
59

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 10:25:40
72. Whp's get the technicoloured pillow case then?
60

Englebert Humperdinck,

Here and there 15/06/2008 10:26:58
Why is no one who sells this alchohol to under age drinkers being made to take some kind of responsibility. The Government have it all wrong. They need a strict ID policy and need to be policed. If any conrner shop or off-licence or who ever gets caught selling alchohol to under agers why not hit them where it hurts? In the pocket.
Lets say a fine of a full years revenue and lose their trading licence completely? I am sure that would encourage them to check ID and not come up with their usual excuses of "They looked over 18". Although in most cases kids can always find someone older to buy it for them anyway. So! I dont think this problem will ever be solved.
61

Englebert Humperdinck,

Here and there 15/06/2008 10:31:13
Oops! Wrong post. Must be too early!
62

Rudolf The Red,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:31:29
The real stone is to be revealed when Scotland is free? Like in 1314? Scotland was free for hundreds of years and it never turned up.
63

Col. Blimp­IV*,

15/06/2008 10:36:57
#65 King O The Picts, - "my guts tell me FAKE."

Yes I do believe you have something there.

I stood in a gigantic slow-moving queue to see the Emperor's Warriors (genuine).

I have yet to muster any enthusiasm to go to look at this Lia Fail thing (facsimile).

I prefer to believe that the genuine Stone has remained in a secret cave somewhere, guarded for the past seven hundred years by a faithful Knight[like the "Holy Grail" in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade].

Most likely the those who knew his location and were supposed to give him the "all clear", fell at Bannocburn, hence the failure of the Stone to re-appear when the English had been vanquished.

We owe this fellow our eternal gratitude...and a helluva lot in backdated wages!
64

sm753,

15/06/2008 10:37:37
First - I don't particularly give a rat's ass whether this thing is fake or not, other than intellectual curiousity.

Oddities:

AFAIK, no post-1296 Scottish king asked for the thing back, despite the numerous opportunities in treaty negotiations to do so. Suggests they didn't want a fake back?

On the other hand, they obviously didn't have a "real" one on hand, or surely there would have been a "we've got the real one, nyahh-nyahh-nyahh" moment at some point.

As for #58, get real. The Queen is the Queen because the law and Parliament say she is, it has nothing to do with her posterior touching a lump of rock.
65

John PM,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:38:22
This 'story' has been cut and pasted from the Times to offer an alternative to the latest Wendy Alexander bombshell. Here's the original comments:

Alex Salmond has said he believes the Stone of Destiny on show at Edinburgh Castle is a fake, provoking a row about the authenticity of one of Scotland’s most famous cultural icons.

The first minister is convinced the original stone was hidden by the abbot of Scone 700 years ago to prevent it being looted by the English.

Salmond believes a worthless block of Perthshire sandstone was passed off as Scotland’s coronation stone when King Edward I’s army stormed Scone Abbey in 1296.

The stone on display in the crown room of Edinburgh Castle sat beneath the coronation throne in Westminster Abbey until 1996, when it was repatriated by the Tory government.

It is regarded as a powerful symbol of Scottish independence and was stolen by a gang of nationalist radicals in 1950.

“If you’re the abbot of Scone and the strongest and most ruthless king in Christendom is charging toward you in 1296 to steal Scotland’s most sacred object and probably put you and half of your cohorts to death, do you do nothing and wait until he arrives or do you hide yourself and the stone somewhere convenient in the Perthshire hillside? I think the second myself,” said Salmond.

He believes the original stone, used for the coronation of Scots kings for 500 years, may have been a fragment of meteorite. Medieval chroniclers described it as round, black and polished with carved symbols. According to legend, the Stone of Destiny was used as a pillow by the biblical patriarch Jacob when he dreamt of a ladder to heaven.

“At least one chronicler describes the stone as a shiny black object and you would think that if something was to be seen as Jacob’s pillow, Scotland’s most sacred relic, it would be very unusual to the medieval eye,” said Salmond.

“I have a hunch that the sort of thing that would go down as the Stone of Scone wou
66

John PM,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:39:21
“I have a hunch that the sort of thing that would go down as the Stone of Scone would be more like a meteor or something like that — something very unusual, and a lump of Perthshire sandstone, interesting and nice, doesn’t seem to be that.”

Salmond also argues that Robert the Bruce would have demanded the stone’s return if he had thought it was the genuine article.

“He didn’t do that. Why not? One explanation is that he knew it wasn’t the right stone — and the right stone was lost, mislaid or out the way and he just thought this isn’t worth the bother.”

Salmond said there was no certainty either that the stone taken from Westminster Abbey in 1950 was the stone that now lies in the crown room at Edinburgh Castle. He believes a former Glasgow councillor and stonemason, Baillie Robert Gray, made copies of the stone when he was given it by the four to repair after it broke into two pieces during the raid. He suspects Gray may have kept the real one.

“There’s no question that Bertie Gray made copies,” said Salmond. “It’s like the Loch Ness monster — it’s certainly a puzzle and a mystery which is best not definitively answered.”

The first minister’s intervention comes on the eve of the premiere of a Hollywood film, starring Robert Carlyle and Billy Boyd, about the theft of the stone from Westminster Abbey by nationalist radicals in 1950.

The SNP hopes the film, which is being billed as Braveheart II, will boost its campaign for independence. The movie is based on the book about the incident by Ian Hamilton, one of the gang who went on to become one of Scotland’s top QCs.

Hamilton, whose book The Stone of Destiny is published this week, said he was convinced that the stone in Edinburgh was the genuine article.

“Had it been a substitute for Edward to carry off it would have been produced when the king \ regained his kingdom. It wasn’t,” he said. [Unless they suspected that England would try and steal it again and preferred to leave a worthles
67

John PM,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 10:40:16
“Had it been a substitute for Edward to carry off it would have been produced when the king regained his kingdom. It wasn’t,” he said. [Unless they suspected that England would try and steal it again and preferred to leave a worthless blockof sandstone in English hands and below future English thrones. - JPM]

Geoffrey Barrow, a professor in Scottish history at Edinburgh University who taught Salmond medieval history at St Andrews, added: “When Edward came to Scotland in 1296 his conquest of the country was so sudden that people were suffering from shock. I don’t think anyone would have thought up the idea of hiding the stone.”

[So the Scots were too thick to think of such a wheeze, sorry but I don't buy it. JPM]



68

Mcsnagpile,

15/06/2008 10:53:16
Everybody of the secret golden sporran elite knows that when a white stag is fired out of Mons Meg at 2:00am the real stone will ascend form the depths o’ Roslyn under heading conspiracy No 2. After which the true Laird o’ Faun Doon will emerge to claim his staen and oil rigs and we will be back tae auld claes an porridge before ye ken it.
69

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 15/06/2008 10:54:26
#43. If it is fake(and it probably is) not only are all those monarchs crowned at Westminister not lawful Kings/Queens of Scotland but every King and Queen from Robert Bruce onward were not lawful monarchs by your reckoning. This makes the stone irrelevant to the present and may turn up on the'Antique Road Show'.
70

A big boy dun it an ran away,

15/06/2008 10:55:31
It's Sunday have you guys no got the grass tae mow
71

Roy,

15/06/2008 11:02:58
I've just had a quick word with Jacob about this. He said it was a damned uncomfortable thing and he was glad to get rid of it and replace it with a nice eider down pillow.
72

Union is Best,

15/06/2008 11:09:24
86. Buttock massage - no stern untoned...
73

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 15/06/2008 11:12:43
#2 I don't think that Salmond used the word "fake". That originated from the sensationalist headline writer.
74

Braes of Glenmiller,

The Mists of History....... 15/06/2008 11:41:47
The true story, with tongue in cheek, can be viewed here....

http://surrealiteeeee.blogspot.com/

Besides what is fake these days? Apart from a Labour party election expenses sheet.
75

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 11:44:15
Drum Major (84): "If it is fake(and it probably is) not only are all those monarchs crowned at Westminister not lawful Kings/Queens of Scotland"

Or alternatively basing the right to kingship on poorly fashioned lumps of masonry is silly. It's probably time to remember some wisdom from a great film mostly filmed in Scotland: Monty Python and the Holy Grail -- "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government."
Ditto for patio slabs.
76

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 11:49:25
72 - George Bernard Shaw once said that there were enough pieces of the True Cross around to build a battleship.
I suspect also that there are enough Holy Grails around to stock a wine bar.
77

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 11:51:34
85 - later on , if it disnae rain !
78

,

15/06/2008 11:53:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
79

,

15/06/2008 11:58:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 11:59:07
A Voice (95): "Imagine the humiliation and hurt to the Sassenach establishment to discover that even stealing the records of Scotland and removing her coronation stone has not subdued this nation."

Yes, it's truly stunning. Are those the wails of English women, crying in shame at Anglo-Saxon humiliation? Well, no, I think I'm hearing laughter: "Look, strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords ... that's no basis for a system of government." Ditto for patio slabs.
81

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 12:03:38
"Terribilis est locus iste"

There's another Lia Fail, it's on the top of the Hill of Tara, and it's shaped like a phallus...

The late Wendy Wood knew of the whereabouts of the "real" Wee Magic Stane", I'd sus that it's a meteorite, like that contained in the Kabaa in Mecca, an Egyptian benben stone with heiroglyphs. Jacob (if he existed) would have communicated in the dominant language of the Middle East at that time - ancient Egyptian.

Maybe it's all a myth, everyone likes myths, there are modern ones such as the idea that Celts never existed or that Scotland is an Anglo-Saxon country.
82

Calgacas,

15/06/2008 12:04:36
Nick Aitchison gives an excellent account, bringing together history, mythology and archaeology, in his book called called "Scotlands Stone Of Destiny", worth a read.
83

Schot,

15/06/2008 12:12:01
We must be humble. We are so easily baffled by appearances
And do not realise that these stones are at one with the stars.
It makes no difference to them whether they are high or low,
Mountain peak or ocean floor, palace, or pigsty.
- MacDiarmid
84

,

15/06/2008 12:22:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
85

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 15/06/2008 12:34:17
Who cares? It's just a piece of rock, and it's up there with the Turin Shroud and grave of St Patrick in terms of great fakes
86

donald,

glasgow 15/06/2008 12:35:04
The, Perthsire sandstone, taken to Westminster, was a cesspit cover, for bums of English Kings and Queens to sit on for 700 years. The real Lia Fal was, of course, black marble creosite. Edward came back three months later and sacked the surrounding area for the genuine article, but kept the Lavvy Pan lid for his Throne anyways. The Stane was to be returned after the Treaty of Northampton. The Scots did not bother to collect it, knowing it was a fake: although the London mob was going to refuse to allow its delivery.

Everyone and his auntie knows that Baillie Gray made a few copies and a bummer was returned to Westminster. The sculptor noticed a crack, which the retrievers thought was down to them. It was in fact a reminder of the Stane being blown up by Suffregates. Bailie Gray rejoied it wa a metal tube containing a cheeky not about the Queen's derrier sitting on stolen property.

Not faraway rom old sculptor at Sauchiehall Street, the Arlington Bar in Woodlands Road claims to have the real one, left in the cellar and now on display, thanks to its Dublin manager. I have sat on it declared myself the King of the Scottish Socialist Republic.
87

Neil,

Glasgow 15/06/2008 12:42:56
Well OK it almost certainly isn't the biblical "Joseph's pillow" but so what. If we assume that magic doesn't actually work & that it & any other such stone is a stone vested with ritual significance then what does it matter.

It has been Scotland's only Stone of Destiny for 700 years which makes it older than most countries national symbols.
88

sm753,

15/06/2008 12:45:46
101 "Voice from Free Scotland"

I love it. Every time someone like you with an overblown screen title posts one of these foam-flecked Nat rants, support for independence drops another degree.
89

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 15/06/2008 12:50:02
Most likely it's the real thing. Has there been any rumour of it being otherwise before the modern era? I would suggest that the idea that fakes were made is a ploy to maintain some sort of national pride; a way of getting "one up" on our neighbour to the south when clearly they had gotten "one up" on us.

The replicas are face-saving devices.
90

ThomasP,

15/06/2008 12:54:20
Aqwes,Edinburgh

The real stone and the one we currently have are made from different stone.

It was suppose to be marble but the one we have is similar to sandstone.

Salmond has rejected science to prove it but he was right to do so because it if it was proved a fake then what is its worth?
91

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 13:07:14
102 grave of St Paddy ? where's that ?

The Turin Shroud is a little more complex than to dismissed as a mere fake. Fake it might be ( in the sense that the image isnae Jesus) but 'mere' it aint !
92

Pilrig.,

Livingston 15/06/2008 13:09:05
104 - err, JACOB'S pillow. and he must have got a sair heid using that lump as a pillow !
93

Mcsnagpile,

15/06/2008 13:24:11
Everybody knows it teamed up with Mike Swagger
94

Fairfax,

15/06/2008 13:45:21
A Voice (101): "Your agenda fairfax is plain for all to see"

My agenda is a simple one: I'm an English academic, with Scots family and friends, who wants the Union to end. Your political ramblings probably damage the independence cause, which I support. I want Scotland to become a modern republic, not reduce itself to the pathetic Ossian-style nationalism to which you seem to aspire.

"You make great claims to being a lecturer or something at some uni. yet when challenged to do so you cannot make reference to any work or papers you may have published."

I'm a mathematician at Cambridge -- hardly a great claim, since there are so many of us -- who prefers to remain anonymous. Given AM2's experience, I don't think I'll be changing that. Still, to give an arch reference to my work, you could consider concentration of measure; I'll leave the rest to you.