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Was The Bruce's 'blessed Kessog' our patron saint before Andrew?

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Published Date: 10 March 2008
WHILE the debate over whether St Andrew's Day should be an official public holiday keeps going on, consider St Kessog, whom some claim to have been a patron saint of Scotland before Andrew took the honours, and whose feast day falls today, March 10.
A stone effigy of St Kessog whose name Robert the Bruce is said to have invoked before battle
A stone effigy of St Kessog whose name Robert the Bruce is said to have invoked before battle
"Who?" do we hear you shout, unfurling your saltires in indignant defence of auld Sanct Andra? Yet there are those who claim that Kessog, Kessoc, or MacKessog, a Christian missionary who settled near Luss, on Loch Lomondside, was in effect patron saint of Scotland before Andrew, and that at Bannockburn, Robert the Bruce urged on his troops in the name of "blessed Kessog".

Records of the Saint are thin on the ground, but most accounts suggest he was a Christian missionary, originally a son of the kings of Cashel, ancient capital of the Irish province of Munster, who arrived in Scotland in or around 510 and established a base on Inchtavannach ("the island of the monk's house"), just off Luss.

While still in Ireland, he is supposed to have miraculously revived some boys after a drowning accident.

And he is said to have been martyred on March 10, 560, (some sources say as early as 520), a mile and half south of Luss at Bandry, where a cairn to his name become a focus of pilgrimage until the Reformation, but was demolished by road builders during the18th century.

Today, Luss Parish Church, which in two years time will celebrate 1,500 years of continuous Christian worship on the site, still champions the name of the saint buried somewhere in its grounds, and possesses three artefacts removed from the cairn when it was demolished. These are a carved stone head thought to be of the saint and thought to date from the sixth century, an ancient stone font and a stone effigy of a bishop, which some believe to be Kessogl.

The present parish church was built in 1875, and these days maintains a pilgrimage centre – as well as its own MacKessog tartan, designed two years ago. According to its minister, the Rev Dr Dane Sherrard, Robert the Bruce knew the area, and its saint, very well.

Dr Sherrard, who will conduct a service for St Kessog today, agrees that at Bannockburn, Bruce urged his troops into battle in the name of "the blessed Kessog". "So successful was the battle that he came back to Luss and granted a three-mile girth of sanctuary to the church. A pilgrimage began again then and continued until the Reformation," he said.

One exponent of Kessoc as an alternative patron saint is Donald McKinney, the author of Walking the Mist: A Practical Guide to Celtic Spirituality, who admits that much of what we know about Kessog is anecdotal but believes the saint deserves recognition.

He said: "He was somebody who reached out to me as an inspiration and felt more real, more Celtic, than say St Andrew. I read a book which said that he was patron saint of Scotland before Andrew, and that he was also known as 'the warrior saint'."

Dr Alan MacQuarrie, who has translated and edited a brief life of the saint from the early 16th-century Aberdeen Breviary, says that not a lot is known about him: "The legend has it that he came originally from Munster in south-west Ireland, and the Earls of Lennox, in the area round about Loch Lomond, also claimed to come from there."

He added that the name crops up at Auchterarder, Comrie, Callander, Glen Finglas and Strathearn, while the Kessock Bridge at Inverness replaced Port Cheasaig – "Kessog's ferry".

St Kessog: the little we know…

THE saint's life is relatively obscure, but there are some details that shed light on his ministry.

The entry in The Oxford Dictionary of Saints says: "Kessog (Mackessog) (sixth century) Bishop:

• Born at Cashel of the royal family of Munster, Kessog went to Scotland, became a monk and eventually a bishop in the area around Loch Lomond.

• Luss was the principal centre of his cult.

• His traditional residence was the Monk's Island in the loch.

• Kessog is said to have been murdered by assassins at Bandry, where a heap of stones, known as St Kessog's Cairn, once stood. Part of this was removed during road-making in the 18th century and a stone statue of Kessog was found inside it.

• Several churches in different parts of Scotland are dedicated to him.

• Feast: 10 March."

Footprints of the Ancient Scottish Church, published in 1914, noted: "An ancient fair at Auchterarder in Perthshire (1200) recalled the feast of this saint once kept in Scotland (10 March).

"He was an Irish bishop and is said to have suffered martyrdom in Dunbartonshire (AD560).

"There were other fairs in his honour at Comrie and Callander, both in Perthshire, and on the island of Cumbrae."





The full article contains 821 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 March 2008 11:42 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: St Andrew's Day
 
1

Resolutions,

10/03/2008 00:43:54
Somebody needing another day off?

Off course The Bruce and other Kings knew this saint and many more throughout Scotland. They knew more about them, than most of us do today. What about St Fillan, St Duthog(not sure of spelling), St Columba even,St Machar, St Mirren, St Johnstone, St Ninian, St Magnus ot even Glasgow's St Mungo? There are a lot of lost Scottish saints.

Think it is part of re-discovering out heritage.
2

Beth Boyle,

NY 10/03/2008 03:33:20
Aye and Murdo or Saint Kentigern who was born at Culross in Fife!
3

Beth Boyle,

NY 10/03/2008 03:34:11
Woops I mean Mungo, Murdo is the name of me tup!
4

Argyll on line,

Argyll 10/03/2008 06:42:21
This blessed saint helped bring Christ and civiliation to Scotland and indeed saved us from fools like Rulesbutnotrulers above.
5

donald,

glasgow 10/03/2008 07:04:26
There must have been many "Saints" in Scotland afore St Andy. The point is the "St Andrews" Saltire flag was adopted by all, including us of the non Hallelujah brigade. We see the flag a s a recognisable symbol of nationhood believed by th Cruithne (Picts)to appear in the sky before defeating the invading Angles. I'm sure most Sassunachs do not believe the myth of "Saint" Gorge" and the Welsh dragon, but just accept the flag as their own. They can keep the Butcher's Apron as well.
6

inoui,

Jomtien 10/03/2008 07:36:37
Knox has a lot to answer to.
7

Navvy,

10/03/2008 07:40:54
The more the merrier

I will now toast St.Andrew & St Kessog when I celebrate the feast of St.Andrew
8

Nell,

The Preservation Hall 10/03/2008 08:04:54
Did St Kessog invent cornflakes?
9

Dave Scott,

St Albans 10/03/2008 08:06:16
eh *1, I don't think you can add 'St Johnstone'. Was it not because Perth was St John's toun, John being another of the Lord's disciples.

mmm *10 more revisionist claptrap. Despite there being small cities, I can't recall pre-Christian 'Briton' being other than fire & sword-wielding with Celtic child-sacrifice thrown in, plus there's no real justice for women either. Since the leaders of those who fought to form Scotland appealed to the 'Lord of the Hebrews' then one could argue that Scotland itself is a Christian invention. Descend back into Pictdom, return to Dalraida or what other form of internally riven tribalism you want. Drag the rest of us back into some kind of spiritual dark age? Wake up and smell the coffee.
How can anything be alien to the Lord of all Creation other than that which wants to be?
10

Tamus,

High Street 10/03/2008 08:13:44
Oh come on. Can someone not find a Patron Saint who has a day in the middle of Summer, Something useful for a change please. November and March are pretty dreich months after all
11

Isonomia,

Lenzie 10/03/2008 08:29:36
We owe St. Andrews to the first wave of Hungarian immigrants, he has nothing to do with Scotland and it is about time Scotland had its own Patron saint.
12

Guga II,

Rockall 10/03/2008 08:30:39
It was St. Ninian, a Galloway pict, who brought christianity to Scotland, in 397.
13

voltaire's janny,

10/03/2008 08:38:10
Bah humbug.

Bruce was as cynical as any modern politician and especially "religious" after his excommunication. Any saint will serve; Kessog or any wandering loony from the earlier Culdee church (suppressed brutally of course in favour of Catolicism).

There are no gods. Think for yourselves.
14

,

10/03/2008 08:52:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

jane m,

Leeds 10/03/2008 08:54:44
If you want another early celtic saint - what about st cuthbert, a simple shepherd boy who was prior of Melrose. He was at least born in scotland,in the lammermuirs around 635, although his feast day is March 20th so thats no use to those who want an extra day's summer holiday (or should that be HOLY day - as its the church festivals, christmas, easter, pentecost, etc which gave us our no norking days to begin with!)Admittedly Cuthbert went off to scotland to convert the english, so that makes him an ex pat I suppose
16

jane m,

Leeds 10/03/2008 08:55:56
18 sorry that should be non working day.
17

wayne bijlyeerheid,

10/03/2008 08:59:53
Any point in telling these people that "Ireland" was known as Scotland until the 11th century at least?
Any point in telling them that all these "celtic" saints etc., were never described as any thing else, by contemporaries and themselves, but Scots?
At the very least that would suggest that the "Scotti",if only a tribe, were the dominant force on that island.
Or does it suit them to pretend that the Scots didn't exist and that there has only ever been people known as "Irish"?
Bit racialist.
18

Mcsnagpile,

10/03/2008 09:01:54
I hate to tell you but,,, there are no Saints in the national Presbyterian Church. The Roman Catholic Church makes Saints. What is the national saint of China or in fact USA???? What’s the beef??? Why not have a national McSporran day.
19

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 10/03/2008 09:07:37
There are no gods but one creator GOD, who is capable of all things including being a 3 persons in one. All believers are Saints (read your New Testament) bestowing sainthood long after death is a Roman invention. Having a disciple and martyr as a patron saint is better than those sassunachs with a Greek and a big lizard.
20

Nellie,

Liverpool 10/03/2008 09:23:48
#6 Are you saying that Christianity brought civilisation? I think we only have the word of Christians for that! Besides, history shows there were civilisations that pre-date the tentacles of Christianity and even of Christ.
What we DO know is that the Christian missionaries brought with them diseases that proved fatal for many of those they sought to save, no to mention death to those who opposed them. Christian martyrs there were but there were also many martyrs of other faiths who died at the sword or stake of many a Christian! Just think of the Crusades, for a start. Plus, the wars BETWEEN CHRISTIANS is suggestive of peoples with little sense of civilisation in them!
21

Hugh T,

Blairgowrie 10/03/2008 09:43:43
The cannonisation and devotion of Saints is simply a Christian alternative to ancient multi-thiestic religions - Egyptian / Greek / Roman and the like.

The early Judeo-Christian fathers were no more than a blend of double-glazing salesmen and bent politicians who are prepared to say accomodate anything to get the sale, gain the cash, and win power over the masses.

If there is a one jealous God up there Saint praying-Christians are in for a hell of a Judgement Day fright.
22

AJ Fife,

10/03/2008 10:29:26
The Rev Dane Sherrard will be the perfect boy to exploit any money making enterprise!

He has a track record.....
23

G,

dundy 10/03/2008 10:42:29
We had a saints day when I was at school in Glasgow that we all loved - it was Saint Hamearlie - patron saint of heating systems....
24

voltaire's janny,

10/03/2008 10:54:28
On the basis of maths, logic and science mostly beyond my comprehension but case hardened by the constant attacks of critics of sufficient intelligence to make an objection, the big bang theory pretty much explains without intervention of a creator, the structure and evolution of the universe to within 10 to the power minus 42 seconds of the creation instant.

This picture is not seriously disputed, but it may take much longer to peer any further or explain how things came to be just so. At every step of this amazing intellectual quest, religion has denied, burned at the stake, tortured, imprisoned - all in the name of absolute truth, revealed to a bunch of power craving accolytes or deluded numpties for two millenia and counting.
25

Furchrissake,

10/03/2008 10:54:31
What about St Fergus?
26

voltaire's janny,

10/03/2008 11:10:01
If you want a mantra to worship, the universe is revealed by:

The darkness of the night
The evident expansion of the universe
The preponderance of hydrogen and helium
Einstein's gravity & the constant speed of light
The microwave background & 15 billion year-old fluctuations.

God is deader that Neitsche
27

Socrates2,

10/03/2008 11:23:05
Ceasaig Bheanaichte
28

Socrates2,

10/03/2008 11:23:05
Ceasaig Bheanaichte
29

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:30:14
Rulesbutnotrulers: you have a strange notion of what the Christian religion is, if you persist in defining it by borders that no longer exist, along with a culture that doesn't exist either, and good riddance. Have you no memory of the bog bodies that are occasionally found, or of historical references to what went on in Celtic lands before the advent of Christianity? Or do you live in some fantasy land like The Lord Of The Rings, where there are elves and fairies and knights and magicians. None of them real of course, none of them possible. For people like you, the natural world is apparently too boring to consider as Creation, and you would exclude any idea that wasn't born north of the English border. Strange indeed, considering how much intellectual treasure the West had to import before it could begin to develop and grow on its own. I personally think it's wonderful to rediscover these lost saints, because they were real people, brave people, and good people who knew exactly what they were about and why they had to try to bring the light of Christ to what were in reality dark and savage tribes.
30

Pazuzu,

10/03/2008 11:37:26
How about St. Tennents day?

Many a time I've thanked St. PintofTennents - it's a national thing, every Saturday night.

We have a beer, or twelve then stagger home - and say to ourselves - "what a great night, glad I made it home with thanks to St. Tennents"

"The people who have really made history are the martyrs.”

"If one were to take the bible seriously one would go mad. But to take the bible seriously, one must be already mad. "

Crowley
31

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:38:21
Tules: the New Testament does NOT contradict itself in any substantive or significant way. In fact, the four gospels corroborate each other. Matthew and Mark are almost word for word identical. Luke, who was not an Apostle (nor was Mark), wrote some time after Christ, but he did know at least some of the Twelve and traveled extensively with the greatest theologian of all time: Paul. As a physician and a man of science (such as it was then), Luke seems to be scrupulous in reporting all that he was able to find out, apparently including information from Mary the Mother of Jesus, because other wise he could not possibly have known it. Your puny sophistry leaves you regarded as pitiable by people who are involved in careful Biblical study, but worst of all, it leaves you without any spiritual prop. What has Santa Claus, pray tell, to do with the New Testament? Why should we care if you perpetuate that fairy tale or not? But please, don't equate Santa Claus with the Christian story, because in doing it publicly you merely display your ignorance.
32

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 10/03/2008 11:41:40
I was hoping there would be some actual evidence for the headline. Unfortunately, I cannot find anything more than suggestions that Bruce was aware of this saint and urgedhis troops on in his name, but then there is no reference to any evidence, and the wishful thinking of some bloke who wrote a book on Celtic Spirituality.

So, anyone got a decent bit of evidence?
33

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:43:18
To believe that there is a Universe existing with black holes and wormholes and galaxies and infinite space, containing a small blue planet inexplicably teeming with life when for millions of miles in every direction there is nothing but barrenness, one would have to be mad too. But unfortunately for unbelievers, the Universe does indeed exist, and the power and majesty of its Creator silently but compellingly makes ridiculous your puny arguments against Him.
34

Martha,

10/03/2008 11:46:00
The saints were real people. Many of them were highly educated for their time, and they thoughtfully considered the likely end they would face by entering into hostile lands occupied by violent, primitive people who worshipped stones and ponds and thought nothing of child sacrifice. They were so filled with belief and zeal and certainty that they risked their lives anyway. You are a beneficiary of their sacrifice, yet you have nothing but contempt for them. This is a terrible commentary on you.
35

Hugh T,

Blairgowrie 10/03/2008 11:54:15
Martha

Sorry to disagree but there are huge contradictions between Mark/Matthew and the other two. If you consider Luke to be the author of 2/3rds of Acts then you can up your contradiction rate 50%. Read Eisenmann (if you have patience) for detail.

The first 5 books of the NT are all Pauline Diaspora related propaganda designed to work against the Judeo-Christian based Jamesian faction, based around the Jerusalem Bishops, in favour of a foreigner-friendly attempt to gain power over the masses for the few in the Empire.

All of the NT can be interpreted as power-based machinations if you take the time to immerse yersel' in early AD politics. It's not hard to do and there's barely a God to be found: it's all basically man against man / my truth is better than your truth / faith is stronger than deeds argument.

Stick to the OT if ye want to find purely God-based politik.
36

Hugh T,

10/03/2008 12:01:50
And have you any evidence for ridiculing 6th century people as pond-worshipping child killers?

You've sure bought into the flimsy generalised blindly-ignorant naive arguments spouted by religious nutters the world over, he generalised. Don't get your History from the Sunday Post.
37

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 12:07:26
It seems that Scottish historians never participate in anything related to Scottish history no matter what the period is on this site.
Is it that few know anything about this period or simply don't want to enlighten anyone.

Maybe it is true that they are stuck in their Ivory Towers after all.
38

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:15:32
Hugh T-- believe what you like. Your comments are really slanted, since you have no proof that the writers of the Gospels sought to propagandize anybody. What the writers thereof said they were about was the recording of some of the highlights of Christ's ministry and the basic narrative of his ministry and death. So either you believe the writers, or you don't. The Gospels are far more alike than different, even John-- who was an apostle, like Matthew, and actually knew and spent quite a bit of time with Jesus of Nazareth.
39

brettgallacher,

edinburgh 10/03/2008 12:17:13
the only folk who will get day of are msps the rest of us get nowt if we take it off we have to give up another one but i do believe we should celebrate a scottish day before the pc crowd take that of us as well incase the muslims or someother migrant religon dont like only last week a school nursery in glasgow banned the kids painting boiled eggs incase it offend someone but as the nursery teacher said we dont have any migrant children at said nursery now she has been suspended for speaking out
40

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 12:19:16
Can someone please explain to me what Celtic Christianity is.
Now I know what Gaelic Christianity throughout the ages starting from Ireland then in Scotland through St.Columba but I am at a loss to understand the rest.

Naturally Welsh is another Celtic language.
41

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:21:39
As propaganda the Gospels fail miserably, so I doubt that was their intent. In fact, these records are blindingly honest. For example, we have the mother and brothers of Jesus coming to get him because they have feared, or have been told (which of these is unclear) that he has gone mad. This is hardly the work of a propagandist, because such a one would never raise the possibility of insanity.
42

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:27:13
brettgallacher: painting eggs in Spring is hardly a Christian tradition. Like the Easter Bunny, colored eggs are a remnant of some pre-Christian pagan practice that was celebrated around the vernal equinox, and no doubt was very closely associated with fertility.
43

Martha,

10/03/2008 12:39:36
Over the Top: The Celts occupied a huge swath of Europe and the entire islands of Britain in the first century AD. They were among the first people in the west to be Christianized as the missionaries moved along the Mediterranean basin from Judea to Spain. Gaelic is the language spoken by Celts in France and Britain. Celtic Christianity in Britain, owing to the distance from Rome and the lack of easy communications, developed more or less on its own until the end of the sixth century AD, when the pope sent St. Augustine of Canterbury to officially Christianize the island. But Christianity really had come much earlier to Britain, probably with Roman soldiers as they came and went from tours of duty there. There may have been some apostolic visit to Britain, but such a visit exists only in legend at this point as any records of such visits either don't exist at all or have not been discovered yet. St. Augustine in 597 AD found a viable parish in Canterbury in the seat of the Saxon king of Kent, whom he converted and baptized in the church, which was later named St. Martin's. The church had been there since before the Saxons had invaded when the Roman army left. It is worth mentioning that St. Augustine landed at Reculver in Kent, on the North Sea, where there had been a Roman fort (its walls can still be seen). Clearly Christianity came to that region with at least in part by the Roman army, especially after the end of the persecutions when soldiers could openly declare themselves to be Christians. Augustine built a monastery there on the site of the abandoned fort, and then went on to Canterbury for more missionary work. This is not the same man as St. Augustine of Hippo, aka Augustine the Great, who lived two centuries earlier. Toward the end of the seventh century, the Synod of Whitby was convened to iron out doctrinal differences that had arisen over the course of centuries between the long-independent Celtic church of Britain and the Romanbasedchurch
44

H215,

New York 10/03/2008 12:47:16
#42 - Hmmmm....that sounds like the beliefs of some CURRENT immigrants. So...how happy are YOU to be preached to by the Finsbury Park crew? Do you believe that THEIR "belief and zeal and certainty" makes their pitch more valid?
45

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 10/03/2008 12:51:22
Martha #42 - out o curiosity, who are you reffering to?
46

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 10/03/2008 12:54:16
11# Naw! but I heard he was a bit of a crunchy nut...
47

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 13:00:31
Any intelligent individual will concede that there may well be intelligent life on another planet...in another system....so, say these people and their culture have grown and developed in a godless, worship free society....it is alien to them and they have no comprehension of JC...his ma and da...and all the holy books to be found here, on earth...they have no need to worship something that is not relevant to their culture....what if?...someday, our paths crossed....what would the holy willies tell them?...because after all...surely a god who has visited this planet and left his mark upon it would be a god of the entire universe?...would he not?...or perhaps there is no intelligent life elsewhere eh?...perhaps 'god' only chose our planet?....

Just a wee idea....
48

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 13:01:33
Anyway...wouldnt mind that effigy for my garden pond!
49

Alfie Bett,

10/03/2008 13:04:02
If we are only looking for a new national holiday why not hang on a couple of years when we will have our independence day(something worth celebrating!and with no religious connotations) and make it the friday nearest a date in the summer months so it can be a long weekend with the prospect of half decent weather.
50

Nellie,

Liverpool 10/03/2008 13:04:33
#28 et al. Now, I'm not a religious person and I find it difficult to believe there is a "personal" God. In support of this position, I have long questioned a number of Christian claims and tenants. For example, I find it laughable that Christian theologists decry the Islamic belief that Jesus turned two handfuls of mud into a pair of doves, yet they are quite able to accept Jesus raised people from the dead, that he himself rose from the dead, that he fed 5,000 people with 5 loves and fishes, that he was born to a virgin, etc.! Good, innit! The Muslims simple refuse to accept Jesus was anything more than a prophet, not unlike Mohamed but without the "direct line". However, a search on the Web turned up a scientific paper that demonstrates that "virgin births" probably happen more often than a Christian may care to admit since it has been proven under laboratory conditions, female mammals can reproduce without the egg being fertilised by male sp4rm. Proof that the virgin birth was not a miracle? Not quite! Since the creation of these "virgin" offspring are created solely within the confines of a female genetic code, it does seem impossible for the resultant baby to be male! For that to happen the scientists who undertook this "virgin birth" experiment concluded that had to be a miracle! Mmmm ... challenging food for thought!
51

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 13:27:41
60...or maybe the lassie got up the duff and knew there would be 'hell' to pay should she be found out!...could be a whole nother CONspiracy theory...
52

GP,

10/03/2008 13:30:00
53# Martha - are not most if not all christian festivals celebrated on pre christian days of celebration, including christmas?
In true victor style the christians re-wrote history to suit their needs. Depicting pre-christians as barbarian child killing demon worshipers.
Looking around at today's christian society and hearing of the paedophiles, child killers, murderers in general and the inhumane way these societies treat all other creatures makes me cringe.
As far as teachings are we really meant to believe the rubbish that for example Paul wrote? He could never have met either Jesus or anyone who had met him or his disciples given the time lapse.
Never let facts get in the way of a good read and the christian bible like most other religious books is a good read but keep it in context of both it's time and the needs of the people who created or recorded the stories within it. Then remember the suppressed books and stories that were excluded and think what they might have read like.


53

Hunky Dorey,

10/03/2008 13:39:28
#8 Inoui............ We are talking about saints here,not devils.
54

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 10/03/2008 13:44:30
#60 Nellie.......... I know that Mohamed was married 12 times,his youngest bride being age 12. He did not raise anyone from the dead,but then,would he have had time for anything else?
55

Paul S.,

Mauricetown, NJ, USA 10/03/2008 13:51:45
Martha, Martha,

PLEASE do some real studying — university level work — before you make any more historically incorrect statements about the New Testament. I've done that studying, and can attest to the correctness of much of it being proto-orthodox propaganda.

If you were to become aware of all the early Christian writings, including Gospels, which were not included in what we now call the New Testament, then you would recognize that many of the NT books are essentially attacks on styles of early Christianity which subsequently did not prevail against the virulent attacks of those we now consider orthodox.

Many of Paul's letters contain entreaties to ignore the teachings of others. Well, those others were Christian teachers with different views of Christ than Paul's. The era was filled with widely varied types of Christianity, some just wishing to be left alone and others trying to dominate and coerce. The latter essentially won the day.

Only recently — post Nag Hammadi — have scholars like Ellen Pagels, Bart Ehrman, and many others begun to bring forth the ideas which made for a very different Christianity than that which evolved from early Roman and Eastern Orthodox Catholicism.

Please also read "The Jesus Dynasty", a very important scholarly book on what the term "Messiah" actually meant to contemporaneous Jews, and how that affected the life and ministry of Jesus and his followers.

But PLEASE do the scholarly work it takes to talk about these matters without showing yourself to be rather shrilly uninformed.
56

Hugh T,

10/03/2008 14:02:37
Oh Martha! The apolostic Matthew and the gospel writer are not the same dude. The gospel can't have been written before 130AD unless you believe in miracles.

This is basic stuff even for 8 year-old religious brainwashees, never mind someone with an adult brain.

Commandment #1 - Find ye not your religion in Twinkle or Jackie.
57

Hugh T,

10/03/2008 14:12:52
Martha! Sorry again, but you can't get away with...

"Toward the end of the seventh century, the Synod of Whitby was convened to iron out doctrinal differences that had arisen over the course of centuries between the long-independent Celtic church of Britain and the Roman based church"

Wikipedia may be a fascinating thing, but there was never a long-Independent church of Britian. There was no Britain for a start, and Whitby was for a specialised niche of interest - absolutely nowt to do with most of the Celtic churches in Scotland. Again, and to reiterate the learned Paul S above, if you haven't got a clue - dinnae open yer gub or write mince that a bairn would be ashamed of.
58

Martha,

10/03/2008 14:14:26
Paul S.-- Why is it necessary to insult? Do you think that makes your point more valid? These books to which you refer are scholarly opinion, nothing more. They are not the Scriptures. You remind me of the Pharisees in the New Testament, who were puffed up and intellectually proud, and thought that Jesus could teach them nothing. So they belittled Him. Now, either you are a Christian and believe, or you do not, and all the sophistry you can muster does not amount to a handful of dust. Sophistry also does not change history, and as a matter of fact, I am probably as conversant with history as you, and perhaps even more so. I am well acquainted with the non-canonical "gospels"-- which for very good reasons were excluded from the canon. But back to the Gospels, they tell a very clear story. The story is that when God became man, He moved among people who were poor and ignorant, and people who fancied themselves to be educated and better than their brethren, including Him. He had a great deal to say about these Pharisees and scribes, none of it complimentary. The lowest beggar in the street could discern when a miracle had been worked, and could grasp the simple truth of His statements, but the educated were blinded by their own vanity, and led astray by the religious theories of the time. If they had had that book "The Jesus Dynasty," they would have quoted it to the Son of Man.
59

Martha,

10/03/2008 14:16:37
I guess the island the Romans referred to as "Britannia" never existed then? No, it was not a formal government, but Britannia, aka Britain, was a definite geographic entity, known throughout the world of antiquity.

Hugh T-- I studied the Synod of Whitby at university.
60

Martha,

10/03/2008 14:18:43
Hugh T: if there had not been an independent Christian church operating in Britain, then St. Augustine of Canterbury would never have found a living Christian parish in that kingly seat. But he did, and he baptized the king of Kent in it. That is history. I have no idea if this information appears in Wikipedia or not; you are much more conversant with Wikipedia than I am, and that much is very clear.
61

Martha,

10/03/2008 15:14:36
In basic doctrine no differences were discovered at Whitby; but the tonsure and the date of Easter varied between Ionan and Roman Christianity. There may have been, and probably were, other secondary issues that have been lost in the mists of time. The resolution at Whitby was important, because the Synod brought Northumberland and then subsequently all of Britain under tighter control from Rome. I don't think that at any time the Roman party considered the Ionan party to be in heresy; the differences were concerned with tradition and practice, not doctrine. Essentially Ionan practices in Christianity, which had derived from Irish missionaries in earlier centuries, slowly ceased to exist as the growing power of the Roman church now reached throughout Britain. The catalyst for the Synod was, just as you point out, the dispute over the date for Easter, but more importantly, did Rome in the form of Peter's successors hold the keys to the Kingdom, or not? The answer at Whitby was: yes. Rome and Peter did hold the Keys to the Kingdom, and so Britain and the Picts were brought into the Roman sphere of influence. That this important step would and did influence later points of doctrine cannot be argued.
62

Martha,

10/03/2008 15:15:16
NO, I never read Uriel's Machine.
63

Martha,

10/03/2008 15:24:38
GP__ I regret to tell you that even the Romans, not noted for their gentle behavior, considered the Britons to be savage in the most extreme degree, especially as regards child sacrifice. These were eye-witnesses to Britain as it existed in the first century BCE. They were people who did not quibble to kill, but the gruesome rites of the Britons were shocking even to them. There is certainly a strong impulse among all ethnicities to regard their own ancestors as noble, strong, civilized, etc. and superior to others; but history and archaeology do not bear this out. The Celts in Briton had what was to the patriarchal Romans a disgusting way of passing on leadership of the clan. The aging chieftain, according to several sources I've read, would be challenged by his offspring and fight his son or sons to the death. In Rome, in order for a son to inherit a paterfamilias had to die naturally, and murder was punished (unless you were the sovereign and could do as you liked). Caesar and his army were pre-Christian, so they were not influenced by any later Christian polemics against paganism.
64

Media 1,

cape town 10/03/2008 15:26:17
Was The Bruce's 'blessed Kessog' our patron saint before Andrew?

WHO CARES??????????????

Ancient nonsense
65

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA...bye Bush -Cheney..u. evil leaders. 10/03/2008 15:51:56
Hey Dudes

Its hard to understand that U Dudes can spend so much of Ur time scribing, and talking, about past religious historical events that were based on Beliefs and Faiths.

But yet give lip service, or byte service to the hundred of millions of people, who today, are brutalized by the evil regimes controlling them.

The CCP in CHINA , The Tribal Leaders in Africa, The Religious fanatics of Islam, etc.

Still if u choose the world of 'Beliefs and Faiths" over "Science and Repeatable Experiments" have at it.

The fictional Harry Potter proves, that, the inherent Black Magic Cult is alive and kicking in the minds of vast numbers of Homo Sapiens even today.

Its 8:45 am here in Murrieta ,CA. Blue Sky, and will be 78°F (26°C) today.

GO HILLARY GO.

Barack Hussein Obama......All smoke and Mirrors

John McCain...... Drooling geriatric and WAR monger.

GC




66

GP,

10/03/2008 15:59:18
76# Martha I wouldn't want ot burst your bubble life or whatever capsule you live in. However we have "evidence" you say from whom? People with no axe to grind watching from the side?
No we have "evidence" from those who have exactly the opposite every axe to grind.
Let's see as a child I was told that red indians scalped white folk and did all sort of terrible things.
Then I spent a little time investigating and found the opposite to be true. That is near history so your myths of time history must be accurate then, oh dear more rubbish!
67

Canada,

Canada 10/03/2008 16:00:59
Martha,
You are the most informed and civilized of the bunch. That's why they attack you with ill-mannered jibes.
68

motherload,

montana big sky spirit 10/03/2008 16:10:55
so Jesus said to the pharisees, 'have you read the scriptures???' now what a put down that was because they had memorized the first boringest books of historical measurement ever and he knew it. so who then was the bigger put downer ever, the pharisees or the one who left this planet to hell and back with a sword wound in his side and nail prints in his hands.
i suppose, martha, you would never eat tongue or anything out of an animals mouth but do you like eggs?
the teacher suspended because they were painting easter eggs so pagenly, maybe had a biology lesson out of context. cheers
69

westview,

In front of a scientific ,not magic, computer. 10/03/2008 16:19:31
Martha , we would have had a lot more books to study and admire if the christians had not destroyed the reputidly magnificent library at Alexandria. A place of learning and a depository of knowledge in the ancient world. The christians then as now feared ideas that were not theirs. Just like many superstitious people. They also killed the person in charge, a woman , ( must not allow that in a male dominated religon ), by scraping her skin off with sea shells. Nice love your neighbour tactics. No wonder the dark ages descended for hundreds of years. Now we have folk brought back to life every day in hospitals, using science, not mumbo jumbo. Well at least Britain does not have a saint ,so some progress has been made away from the control freakery of religon.
70

GP,

10/03/2008 16:29:13
Let's be serious now.
Who in their right mind would call anyone Kessog.
Hey Kessog pass the ball.
Hey Kessog do you want sauce.

No I think Andrew is better by a long way.
71

Nellie,

Liverpool 10/03/2008 16:45:53
#83 Dunno about that. After all we have a breakfast cereal of a similar name, as in "pass the Kelloggs". (Do you suppose they are related?)
72

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 17:43:47
6
Can you explain what you mean by civilisation and how were the people who lived there at the time uncivilised.
73

westview,

10/03/2008 17:53:56
Oh no! Saint Tony Blair!!
74

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:26:36
The cause of the library fire in Alexandria is still, so far as I know, an open question. Blame the Christians if you like. I'm surprised you don't blame the Jews; they usually get hit for every bad thing that happens.

I guess if you think child sacrifice and patricide are civilized, you come from a different galaxy than I do. As for Jesus asking the Pharisees "Have you read the Scriptures," they were lying in wait for him (Luke 19:47-48)hoping to trip him up in a blasphemy so they could take him to the governor of Judea (a Roman) for execution, as blasphemy was a capital offense to the Jews. And, as we know, this is exactly what happened. The blasphemy in question? that He was the Son of God. He said He was, in the most explicit terms possible for his listeners. He declared Himself. They termed it blasphemy, yet He had already fulfilled all the prophecies in the Scriptures which they had committed to memory since childhood-- hence the question to them "Do you read the Scriptures?" Maybe He meant exactly what he said. Maybe the question was not intended to be sarcastic. Maybe it was a hint to them that they should read with more understanding.
75

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:29:19
Westview: my computer is a thing of science too, and not magic. I don't believe in magic. But likewise, I don't believe that my computer either created the universe or can tell me on its own how to live a godly life, or that it will ever take the sins of the world on its shoulders and suffer death on my behalf, so that I will have eternal life.
76

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:31:26
Over the top: civilization is usually defined as the rule of law whereby the weak are protected from the strong, and the individual has rights that cannot be breached by the enormous power of kings and presidents. Were the Celts civilized? Not by our standards, certainly, nor even by those of Rome, that wasn't too delicate about its own standards.
77

Martha,

10/03/2008 18:33:54
GP: Red Indians (we here in North America call them Native Americans or First People) did scalp white people. Where they learned to do this is anybody's guess; some say it was from the whites but I rather doubt it. There isn't a son of Adam on the face of the planet who isn't capable of the most atrocious behavior.
78

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 18:52:30
90
Rome wasn't civilised, how can you say Rome was civilised.
79

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 10/03/2008 19:02:30
91...Dont think thats the point there Martha...cowboys and indians...kids playing..indians always the baddies...and we were taught from a young age that it was the indians who were the barbaric savages and not the wholesome cowboys....in other words..civilisations, cultures and religions alter history to suit their agenda......
80

John B Dick,

91 10/03/2008 19:12:23
91 Martha

A slight exaggeration. Only about 2/3. Google Stanley Millgram
81

H215,

New York 10/03/2008 19:24:02
93 Doreen - don't know how old you are, but we were always taught that the Indians were the good people (here first and in touch with the land, etc.) and that the cowboys and settlers were ignorant, racist and exploitative. That's been the lesson for the past 30 years, at least, not just in schools but in most popular culture.

82

Martha,

10/03/2008 19:28:20
I suppose the Spaniard conquistadors, who were hardly gentle people, made up the stories about the Aztecs too? I don't regard the Spaniards as civilized either, but that doesn't mean that the Aztecs weren't horrible. The Spaniards didn't mind killing off tens of thousands of Jews by the most horrible means possible; but they were appalled by the human sacrifice of the Aztecs. What does this mean? It means we can trust their observations, even though they themselves had hands dripping with blood.
83

Martha,

10/03/2008 19:30:04
By our standards, the Romans were not civilized. No indeed, they were not. But then, by their standards neither were the Celts. Can we trust their observations of the Britons? Yes, I think we can.
84

Imallymax,

Orewll's Desk. 10/03/2008 19:31:55
Hello Martha, Hugh T, and others. Can anyone tell me which two Hebrew books were not found on the 'dead sea scrolls' ?
85

Martha,

10/03/2008 19:35:33
H215: that's the myth about the Native Americans, all right. Forget that they stole each other's children and women, stole livestock, burned each other's villages, enslaved whole tribes, murdered and in fact annihilated whole other tribes (like the Mohawks did to the Adirondacks), engaged in human trafficking (remember Sacagawea?) and in other words, acted completely and utterly like homo sapiens at all times.
86

Imallymax,

Orwell's Desk. 10/03/2008 19:48:17
The two Hebrew books that are not on the 'dead seas scroll' ? Anybody? I'd be most grateful, It's an interest of mine I would like to find out.
87

Resolutions,

10/03/2008 20:00:10
Where on Earth did this stupid argument about civilisation come from?

The saints are part of our HERITAGE which contains good and bad elements as do most civilisations. WE cannot do anything about the good and bad in the past, but we can try not to repeat the errors by learning from it.

The saints were revered because people felt that they had some exceptional quality - basically seen as 'good people' - it matters not a jot how they were created and by whom. They were important and played their part in our predecessors lives. It seems that many of these folk should be respected in our very material world. What matters is that were important to our heritage, no matter what their 'origins'.

As for Christianity, despite the views you may hold,it has contributed a lot to our heritage in many ways(good and bad). We cannot ignore it. As in any religion, the mark TODAY of a civilised society is tolerance and respect of beliefs or non-beliefs whatever a lot of which is sadly missing from some of the posts on this thread. How sad.

Now may I add St Margaret on to the list please. I cannot think how I omitted her with that lovely chapel at Edinburgh Castle.
88

Martha,

10/03/2008 20:22:24
AS for the two Hebrew books missing from the Dead Sea Scrolls, I think you are misinformed. There is nearly one whole book of I Isaiah, almost verbatim as it appears in the Septuagint, and fragments of several other books. But as to books "missing," there is a variation between the Septuagint and the Masoretic text, which is the approved Hebrew Bible of today, that was finished around 700 CE. The Septuagint is much older; it is the Bible known to Jesus and dates from centuries earlier than that. To say that there are "only two books of the Hebrew Bible missing from the Dead Sea Scrolls" is not at all accurate, and in fact, so much has yet to be made public that I'm not at all sure we have any grasp of what might be there, and what is not there, either in whole or in part. The whole dilemma with the Scrolls is yet another sad story of how mankind manages to muck things up. Part of the problem was the late Dr. Strugnell; part of the problem stems from the Vatican, and part of the problem is intransigence and turf battles among other people.
89

Martha,

10/03/2008 20:27:45
One thing that seems to emerge from the Dead Sea Scrolls is a strong indication of the existence of more than one version of the Hebrew Bible prior to the Masoretic Text that was paintakingly redacted over a period of two centuries in order to give the Jews an "official" Bible. By 300 CE or so the Christians were all familiar with the Septuagint and the Jews were worried about errors and changes in their sacred scriptures caused by Christian zeal. Their concerns were well-founded, but the Masorites may have changed some verses themselves, perhaps to illustrate what they felt to be profound differences between emerging Talmudic Judaism and the Christian canon. At any rate, the Dead Sea Scrolls have prompted more questions than they have answered.
90

Martha,

10/03/2008 20:31:41
Resolutions: I visit Britain frequently. The lack of interest in its Christian past is something that is deplorable. You have to live in a young country like ours to appreciate the enormous cultural treasure that is there for everyone in Britain, and which most of the population seems to ignore. In fact, as you can see from this forum, some people parade their ignorant bias against Christianity as if to say that this prejudice somehow adds to their intellectual lustre. What they fail to realize is that it is not just superstition; people were as intelligent 2000 years ago as they are today, and the great issues of life are identical then and now. The Christian story is one that at the minimum ought to be understood even if not believed by everyone living in the west, since we are all living off the interest from that mighty deposit of spiritual wealth.
91

westview,

Out side . 10/03/2008 20:37:14
102 Resolutions, good point about tolerance. The point you make about "cannot ignore Christianity today" , thats true . Ignoring the present day slaughter caused by various religious beliefs spawned in the middle east and bringing the focus closer to home, why are tax payers in Scotland still forking out cash to segrigate the children here into Catholic and Non -denominatonal schools? Even in the new joint campuses they have costly seperate play areas and doubling up of teachers etc. This is not the heritage to pass on to the future ,it deserves to be left in the past. It may suit christians to prop up the Queen as the head of the established church in Britain, but I object to them using my tax money to do so. This is at least as objectionable as using my money to prop up political parties that do not have my support. Wonder if the proposed new Identity Cards will include your religous affiliation?
92

H215,

New York 10/03/2008 20:46:37
Martha - duhhhh. I thought my comment was transparent that the correct, PC story is also unbalanced. Do I really need to spell everything out for you? How tedious and unpleasant. You seem to take pride in flaunting your belief that your beliefs are superior. No wonder its Jump On Martha Day on this thread.

Anyways....I haven't heard anyone defend St. Columba as an alternative to St. Andrew, who as I understand it was not connected to Scotland. IIRC, Andrew was posted to the Crimea, and his bones bought by a rich man and brought to Scotland on account of a fortuituos [sp?!] appearance of cirrus clouds on a battlefield.
93

westview,

10/03/2008 20:59:41
Martha ,88, Destruction of "pagan" temples, including the Library of Alexandria was ordered by the Christian Emperor Theophilus in 391, and carried out by the local Christian patriach called ,also, Theophilus. According to Gibbins 'Decline & fall'. We have records in the present day of such people altho' we have no historical records of your christ ever having existed.
94

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 22:25:53
St. Columba has a far greater call to be the patron saint of Scotland than St Andrew. One of his bones was carried onto the Battlefield at Bannockburn because he was so important.
Why do you think so many kings are buried in Iona and not elsewhere?
It was St Margaret that introduced Inglis into the Scottish Royal Court and worked to destroy the Gaelic/Celtic church in Scotland. Indeed that was one of the reasons she was made a saint by Rome.
95

karinxx,

10/03/2008 22:34:19
Saints!!!!!!! kessog? andrew? jesus mary and cornflakes whit is this paper coming to.
96

Conan the Librarian™,

10/03/2008 22:43:39
109
Destroying the celtic church I agree.

But Inglis was already here.She may have introduced Magyar, but it didn't take.
97

Over the Top,

10/03/2008 22:46:17
111
St Margaret introduced English into Scotland and got the equivilent of a Knighthood for it.
98

Conan the Librarian™,

10/03/2008 22:56:58
112
Evening over the top.The Kingdom of Northumbria extended to Edinburgh and a wee bit beyond.What language did they speak?
99

CelticLad,

Perth 10/03/2008 23:01:57
The national church of Scotland is the Kirk - it has no saints so what's to discuss?

The pre-Christian heritage of Scotland is both admirable and extensive, older than Rome, older than the pyramids. It reveals an organised mutually supportive society with rules/laws and understanding of the cosmos far beyond that of most contemporary citizens. It is highly possible that those early people were smarter and more humane than we are since we could not exist unless they were. ie if they'd killed to the extent we do, they'd have wiped out the human race long before the machine age. ie there is a chance we will finally destroy humanity. ie we are hardly humane - wars, torture and sickness kill greater numbers of people today that at any time in the past. ie long after they invented tools, our ancestors still did not invent/use weapons. We invent new and more horrific ways to kill each other by the minute including bombs capable of blowing the planet to smithereens. In the computer age, we don't even have to get our hands dirty to do it.

The only conclusion possible is that we become more barbaric with each passing century. So lets not slag off our ancestors. We haven't done much to be proud of in the last 2000 years. I imagine the residents of Skara Brae and the first builders of Cairnpapple would be horrified at what we've turned into.
100

Conan the Librarian™,

10/03/2008 23:27:57
114
More people are alive today than any other point in history.

They generally have a higher standard of living than Medieval Kings.

The number of people killed by nuclear weapons, is dwarfed by those killed by the Assyrians, Aztecs, Mongols, Crusaders, Conquistadores/Inquisition, Nazis and the Khmer Rouge.

And I have missed out a lot.

I would rather my children were living in the here and now, than any other period of history.
101

,

10/03/2008 23:45:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
102

Beth Boyle,

NY 11/03/2008 00:04:04
Well the Boyle family motto is "the Lord will Provide" and that is OK with me. Saint Andrew should stay Patron Saint since no one wants to scrap the Saltire with its white Saint Andrew's cross.
103

Martha,

11/03/2008 01:48:07
117-- There were differences in structure between the Celtic (Ionan) Church and the Roman Church, and in focus as well. The Ionans were far more given to monasticism than the Romans, and were independent as parishes from much oversight. The Roman church on the other hand was and is tightly organized and very hierarchical. Interestingly, the present Anglican communion seems to be a balance between these competing forms.
104

The Pict.,

Canada 11/03/2008 01:56:35
RULES. I don't agree with you on much but on this you are right. The old and new 'testaments' were written by Jews for Jews. They copied them from the Egyptians who had the god and son 2,000 years before the Jewish copy. Yaweh the Jewish god and Christ( good Jewish name?)his son who the Christians worship, torture and kill, usually each other for, came from the Egptian fables and were called Ra and Huros respectively.
Its all documented in the Alexandria Museum. Where did the jews come from? Egypt.
105

CelticLad,

Falkirk 11/03/2008 03:14:29
Hi Conan 115 - high standard of living = adequate clean water, good food, shelter + safety to go about daily life without attack. Most BC people would have had that. Celtic women , for instance, were highly regarded - see funerary evidence. The further back, the more secure daily life would be since resources were plentiful and not fought over.

Recent AD? WW1 non-combatant deaths = 5% of casualties. Today = 75% of casualties. A few post WW2 areas where on-going conflicts/ living standards might not appeal: Ethiopia, Mali, Niger, Gaza Strip, Mexico [drug wars], Chad, Nexalite, Thailand, Waziristan, Balochistan, Sudan, Saudi, Iraq, Algeria, Afghanistan,North Caucasus, Nagaland, Nigeria, Senegal, Kashmir, Somalia, Uganda, Western New Guinea, Kurdistan, Sri Lanka, Peru, Laos, Philippines, Israel, West Bank, Colombia, Burma, Rwanda, Angola, Burundi, Liberia, Kenya [apologies for all omissions]. None of this includes crimes of violence like child murder, paedophilia, in-family assaults, rape, stranger assault, murder or other attacks that might occur as you walk home in any 'safer' country of an evening. Maybe it depends where you stand if you consider today's world a place a peace, love and plenty?

But, since we can't compare with the world of 5000-10000+ years ago, I was only suggesting we're in no position to comment of whether pre-Christian or post-Christian era is/was better. But we ought, at least, to bear in mind that only a small minority of people currently on the planet are of a Christian or similar monotheistic persuasion.
106

MichScot,

USA 11/03/2008 05:20:31
Fascinating history today!
107

tassiestag,

rosebery 11/03/2008 09:58:48
what? if anything has religion got to do with civilisation.
108

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 10:12:11
#123 and others

This is about HERITAGE not civilisation. We cannot do anything about our HERITAGE but it influences everything we do today whether we like it or not. Just look at some of these posts!

Re St Margaret - note the point I made before - viz they were revered and respected by our predecessors for their reasons. Margaret was an excetional person never mind the fact that she adhered to another Branch of Christianity, and never mind what the others did/did not do and who 'promoted' them.

They are part of our Heritage whether you like it or not.

And it is sad to see the ignorance and BIGOTRY surfacing here about ALL faiths and indeed of none.
109

Doreen,

The Cyber Shebeen 11/03/2008 13:37:54
116...Emotive guff...
110

Resolutions,

11/03/2008 17:18:30
As a post script

If faith has not played a part in 'civilisations' how do you explain the stone circles?

The Pyramids? The Greek temples, the Temples of the Eastern Countries, the Roman Temples, the Norse Gods, the Axtec temples, the Cathedrals, the Synagogues, the Mosques and so on?

All of these have played a part in the inheritance of today's 'world' for good or bad or most likely a mixture. Heritage has to be accepted as part of our Scotland today.


 

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