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Thursday, 26th November 2009

As stricken Titanic sank, the call went up: 'Women and children and Americans first'

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Published Date: 21 January 2009
BRITISH passengers aboard the Titanic were less likely to survive than their American counterparts because of their good manners, a study has suggested.



Britons were more likely to surrender their spots on the scarce lifeboats to women and children, and queued for places, while American passengers, concerned for their own survival, displayed brasher behaviour.

In a study of how people react
in situations of life and death, researchers from Australia and Switzerland examined whether people reverted to a "survival of the fittest" mentality when faced with possible death.

They found Britons were 7 per cent less likely to survive the disaster than other nationalities. Americans, on the other hand, were 8.5 per cent more likely to live to tell the tale.

The survival rate among women of both nationalities, however, showed little difference, suggesting that British men were more willing to sacrifice themselves for the "fairer sex". When women only are counted, British passengers on the doomed vessel were only 0.3 per cent less likely to survive, with Americans only 0.4 per cent more likely to do so.

The researchers claim the results show that "cultural background" is a significant factor in such a situation.

The study found that women were 52 per cent more likely to survive compared with the overall average, while children aged 15 and below were 32 per cent more likely to live through it than people aged 51 or more.

David Savage, a behavioural economist at Queensland University of Technology, who was part of the research team, said: "It seems that on the Titanic the social norm of 'women and children first' was followed, as proportionally more women than men and almost all the children on board survived.

"This life-and-death situation was treated as a 'one-shot game' as those who let others on to life-boats knew they faced certain death, and acted out of something other than self-interest."

The Titanic struck an iceberg during its maiden voyage in 1912 and sank shortly afterwards. There were only 1,178 lifeboat spaces to go around the 2,223 people on board. Only 706 survived the disaster, with 1,517 perishing in the Atlantic.

Jo Bryant, the editor of Debrett's, the publisher and leading authority on proper behaviour, said general manners and etiquette prevailed during the early 20th century.

At the time, etiquette guides were popular, both with people climbing the class ladder and with people wanting to signal their status publicly.

Not all mannerisms, of course, have survived until today, said Ms Bryant.

"Certain customs are handed down from generation to generation, although there are some things which do not fit into a modern age."







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  • Last Updated: 20 January 2009 11:40 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Titanic
 
1

Conan the Librarian™,

21/01/2009 00:11:51
How often after complaining bitterly to your partner about the quality of the food/service in a restaurant, along comes your server and asks "Is everything alright?" and you say "Lovely thanks".
2

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

21/01/2009 00:19:22
I understand that a disproportionate number of the working class people on board died, which would suggest that this 'good old sense of British fair play' didn't extend to the lower orders.
3

Rob Bennett,

Byron Bay the Best Beach in the World 21/01/2009 00:37:44
The sinking of the Titanic reminds me of the US economy that hit a GW Bush iceberg and sank to the bottom never to surface again for many many years to come. The end of an era for America, and the beginning of a new one for China. A new world leader is on the horizon.
4

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 21/01/2009 01:37:01
"Women and Children and Americans first", they shouted. Probably true. Their diction is appalling.
5

neltrich,

Wisconsin, USA 21/01/2009 01:49:51
Oh spare me! With whom did the "researchers" discuss this? How many survivors of the Titanic are still alive, much less those who might have been old enough to be aware of the inequity of behaviour between the British and Americans? I find it nearly impossible to imagine that anyone there at the time would have been focusing on cultural differences rather than survival.
6

Lanna,

21/01/2009 02:05:45
#3
and of course, the Liberals had nothing to do with it.
7

Lanna,

21/01/2009 02:08:40
interesting link for the Titanic demographics on who survived and who died:

http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/titanic.html
8

,

21/01/2009 02:15:10
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9

,

21/01/2009 03:53:18
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10

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 21/01/2009 08:09:41
Thank goodness that will never happen again. Gladly we no longer have to look out for the "fairer sex" and it's now every person from themselves in a situation like that.

Mind you, with the constant harping about how men are inferior to wimmin (aye, right) it looks like us men are now the fairer sex.

My how the tables are turning. So this is the deal wimmin:-

Hold doors open for men
Put the toilet seat UP when you are finished
Send us flowers/chocolates
Woo us
Pay for meals
Be gentle with us in bed but let us take the lead sometimes

Anything else?

Oh aye, work hard so we can stay at home and look after the house n kids and in return we wwill do a bit of house work and cook you a microwave meal. However, once a month we will go crazy for a few days and you'll just have to put up with it as we're blaiming our testimonials.
11

A Sensible One,

Atlanta, GA, USA 21/01/2009 08:36:29
I've read in more than one place that the first boats sent out from the Titanic were only half full and when the panic finally caught up with the crowd, one side of the boat stuck to the "Women and Children First" policy while the other side allowed anyone into the boat. The fact that some of the crew survived indicates that no overall fixed policy was in place since under common naval rules, any passenger would have had precedence over a crew member. The difference in survival rates between British and American passengers can't be seen as some sort of cultural issue as the situation was unusual and the sample far too small to draw such inferences, especially given that the event was nearly a hundred years ago. I can't honestly see many people of any nationality giving up their lives for politeness in today's world.
12

Phil MaGlass,

Holland 21/01/2009 08:56:06
I thought it was Americans, women then children no? Nothings changed in all the years,its still Americans first before anyone or thing.
13

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 21/01/2009 09:01:07
12

And quite right too! America are leading the way with regards true equality - that meaning it's every person for themselves.

Nothing wrong with that. America is a true egalitarian society and with a newly elected multi racial white/black/arabic/scottish/african/american president - even more so. Long may it continue.
14

,

21/01/2009 09:29:10
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15

Liz,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 09:30:39
# Crew members survived as there needed to be be people to 'man' the boats.
I remember looking at passenger lists once and was surprised at the number of 'stokers' who survived. Presumably they were put in the boats to row them to safety. Each boat appeared to be allocated at least one of the junior officers too.
16

Isonomia,

Lenzie 21/01/2009 09:53:16
Surely the very essence of the US is a people who are willing to give up all their family, friends, comrades and go and ensure they get a life for themselves.

Natural selection has filled the US with such people, and natural selection has left in the "old" countries those too afraid to detach themselves from the skirt of their mothers and give their own children a better life.
17

Ananurhing,

21/01/2009 09:54:20
Is this the same 'British' selfless behaviour that led to allegations that Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon comandeered the near empty lifeboat No1, paying the crew £5 each, and failing to return to pick up survivors from the water?

One of the crew testified to this effect at a later enquiry. Of course Duff Gordon was cleared, but his reputation was ruined.
18

danbob,

21/01/2009 10:05:43
Having read many different accounts of the Titanics demise nowhere have I read a single account of this happening. Total bull.
19

Observer,,

Glasgow 21/01/2009 10:29:25
This is rubbish you only need to read the list of the dead from the Titanic. They died (mainly) according to class. And lifeboats were pushed out half empty whilst women and children (below decks, steerage class) didn't have a hope in hell.
20

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 10:31:21
#11:

More or less correct. There was no mad panic until maybe the last 30 mins or so before she sank. Until then, most people simply didn't believe that the "virtually unsinkable" ship was actually going down.

The reason why several crew members survived was that they were detailed off to crew the lifeboats. To launch the lifeboats without experienced, trained crew members in charge would have meant that those in the boat would have stood little chance of survival.

All this pontificating about the Americans standing more chance of survival than the British is just total bull. The main factors that would have affected your chances of survival on the Titanic would have been firstly, your class of ticket---access to the boat decks was only permitted to 1st class passengers under normal circumstances, and this rule was apparently enforced right up to the last moment---and whether or not you were prepared to believe the un-believable, that the ship was actually going to sink.

If you were a crewman, then your chances of survival depended basically on whether or not you had been detailed off to man the boats. However J Bruce Ismay (Whit Star Line) somehow managed to survive, whilst Thomas Andrews (Harland & Wolff Naval Architect) did not. There is evidence to suggest that Ismay was in part responsible for the tragedy due to his insistance that Titanic steamed at full speed in pursuit of the Blue Riband.
21

W Smith,

Middle East 21/01/2009 10:40:15
Another lousy anti-American article.

The only thing thats missing from it is the term 'neocon'.

Hundreds of thousands of americans died in Europe fighting the Nazis while some EU members were helping our Adolf.

For the ignor-Hamishes that run this newspaper here is a wee list for you to chew on:

a)Ireland - yes most, not all, of our Celtic cousins stood back and did #### all. Prime Minister Eamonn de Valera actually went to the German Embassy in Dulbin to communicate his sympathy on the death of Hitler.

b) 40% of France was actually unoccupied during WW2 after a devious agreement with the Nazis by the Vichy French government. It was the Brits, not the Germans, who sunk the French fleet in the Med as they refused to join the war effort.

c) Sweden - claimed to be neutral while providing HItler with iron ore.

d) Hungary and Romania fought with the Nazis.

e) Spain kept out of the war but with a facist government in charge they supported Hitler. They were later kept out of the Marshall Plan which involved american money being used to rebuild Europe.


SO THE AMERICANS IN WW2 WEREN'T AS 'SELF-LESS' AS OUR EUROPEAN FRIENDS EH, EDITOR?
22

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 10:58:18
#21:

The Titanic sank before the Second World War.

Just thought I'd point that out.

This isn't an anti-American article, it's pure speculation and assumption. If you read the posts above, you will find out whay.
23

danbob,

21/01/2009 11:33:38
If you look at the percentage of first, second and third class passengers on board and then compare them to the percentages of passengers from each class who died, you will discover that there is little or no evidence of class bias. A lot of these claims were started in America during the Smith inquiry. Just why I don't know. There is just no basis for these claims.
24

,

21/01/2009 11:36:27
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25

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 11:50:06
#23 danbob - Not according to these statistics....
First Class 63% survived.
Second Class 43% survived.
Third Class 25% survived.

http://www.ithaca.edu/staff/jhenderson/titanic.html#data
26

danbob,

21/01/2009 11:59:32
25# But Clamper you have to take into account what the passenger groups were made up of. For example the majority of third class passengers were single male/females seeking a new life in America.
27

,

21/01/2009 12:08:21
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28

,

21/01/2009 12:09:14
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29

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 12:33:11
#26 danbob - Whatever the reasons for being in Third Class may have been, the most likely is that they couldn't afford anything else. Some of the First Class passengers servants were also sent to Second or Third Class. It is estimated that a Third class ticket at the time would have cost the equivalent of a clerk or railway workers monthly salary. Your best chance of survival was in First Class as a woman or child (or American - only joking rednecks!)
First class women and children were about 6% of those aboard the Titanic, but constituted 20% of the survivors. In contrast, steerage passengers were a third of all aboard, but only one fourth of those saved.
30

,

21/01/2009 12:36:54
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31

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2009 12:45:42
21 W Smith,Middle East

The German American Bund in the US, King Edward and Wallace Simpson's good friend Sir Oswald Mosley and his British Union of Fascists Blackshirts were not entirely unsympathetic to the Nazi cause, on both sides of the pond leading up to and during WWII, would that then make Britain and the USA nazi sympathisers too?

In fact is there not a case to answer that white supremacists in the US carry on the nazi legacy there?

btw Of the 'ignor-Hamishes' that run this newspaper, precious few have ever used a Scottish accent.
32

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2009 13:02:26
#30 Ribbonman
At the conclusion of WW2, Britain and the US provided safe haven for enemies of the Soviet Union, if they could assist their efforts during the Cold War, even if they were wanted Nazi war criminals.

Waffen-SS Sturmbannführer Wernher von Braun, who oversaw the Nazi V-weapon program, being only the most high profile Nazi to be rehabilitated by the West, in order to run the US ICBM and Space program.

Dublin was prepared to shelter wanted Nazis but whether this was also to aid the West during the Cold War is in doubt.
33

P Rayner.,

Latin America 21/01/2009 13:55:08
I cannot verify the veracity vis national attitudes on the Titanic . However , over and above the Titanic there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that such a thing might be true . In so far as my travels are concerned , which are already extensive , I´ve seen overwhelming evidence of British patience in those mundane , every day , experiences . In America, especially America , south America and Europe theres not the same emphasis on waiting ones turn , be it in a shop , the pavement , driving etc , than is customary for Britons at home or abroad . In a life threatening situation would the same apply ? Probably yes , as history and studies suggest .
34

,

21/01/2009 13:57:50
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35

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 14:30:44
Clamper & Danbob:

No matter how much you argue about the percentages of each class saved etc, one thing remains incontrovertably true. At some point or other there was going to be a horrendous, avoidable loss of life due to a large liner floundering or otherwise coming to grief.

If it hadn't been the Titanic, it would have been another ship and who knows? That other ship could have been even bigger with even more people on board.

Why would that have happened? Simple. Passenger ships of that era didn't carry enough SOLAS equipment for everyone on board. They also didn't have proper emergency procedures established. In light of this, it was inevitable that a major disaster like the Titanic sinking was going to happen sooner or later. It was only a matter of when.

After the Titanic, a lot of well overdue rules and regulations were introduced, not least of which was a requirement to carry more than enough life boats for all on board. Over the years, these regulations have saved thousands of lives.
36

Vivian,

USA 21/01/2009 14:35:11
I don't know how polite men were 100 years ago in America, but I belive if a ship sunk today that American men would climb over a woman to save his own backside!!! Men are sooo rude these days!!!! I can't say if it's an 'American' thing or not, but I can only belive it's a sign of the times.
37

danbob,

21/01/2009 15:13:39
35# Quite right. Just keeping with that theme though has antone ever been on one of those huge box shapped American cruise ships? and if so how do they behave in bad weather. Compared to the QM2 they look really top heavy. Wife wants to go on one but I am not sure.
38

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 15:34:36
#35 That's true,but at the time, a higher value was put the lives of those wealthy passengers by their own class.
39

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/01/2009 17:06:45
#37:

Never been on one and probably never will do---To my mind, the whloe point of being at sea in a ship is to get away from the madding crowds. I don't see how you can do that in the company of thousands and thousands of other passengers.

Looking at them, I agree that they don't look too stable and but let's face it, most of the volume up high is simply air inside cabins etc. The bulk of the weight is down low, keeping them stable. Additionally, they are fitted with stabilisers which do exactly what it says on the tin.

Obviously in heavy weather, the captain would need to consider the effects of weather and handle the ship accordingly, but that is true of any vessel. Let's just hope that should one of those ships come to grief, it takes at least a few hours to sink. I couldn't imagine the task of trying to get everyone on board onto the boat deck, suitably dressed, and into a life raft in a hurry. The idea of herding cats comes to mind there.
40

Porry,

21/01/2009 17:14:32
Och aye, Vivian. How about that: "American men would climb over a woman"? Not only on board the Titanic, I guess. And so would others. :-))
41

Joe Macdelta.,

21/01/2009 17:25:03
I would be inclined to take these sort of surveys with a pinch of salt, who did they ask their questions to, and what evidence where the answers based. If you base it on national manners alone, if the same happened today, then you would have a completely different result, as there are few with manners in Britain now.
42

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2009 19:58:37
#37 danbob

I would not be overly concerned about the stability of cruise ships. The stabilisers on these are like retractable underwater wings, and cruise ships are built with stabilisers that would normally be fitted to oil supertankers.

The most important part of the ship from the operator's point of view is customer/passenger comfort.

They put more technology into making the cruise as comfortable as they are able because seasick passengers do not spend money.

43

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2009 20:10:56
#36 Vivian
Hi Vivian, if we are putting the boot in, might I offer my contributing by way of some objective balance: are American women any more considerate than the ones over here?

When did you last see a woman check behind her before letting a door swing back into the face of the unfortunate following in her tracks, as like as not some old biddy or wifey laden with shopping or kids unable to prevent a smack in the face from said door?

Women in cars can be as bad, eg reversing out into traffic chatting away to whoever is handy, or on the phone, without even glancing behind.

As you might gather I've been on the receiving end more than a few times, and I'm hardly invisible.
44

Alba Abú,

21/01/2009 20:32:54
#21 Smith......You are talking bullsh@t and you know it. Why dont you get your facts together before posting your British national front bile.

I think that Ribbonman has just taught you a lesson on WW2 history.
45

Douglas,

Bathgate 21/01/2009 20:38:00
I can understand getting the children off first but how much dusting needs done in a lifeboat?
46

livilion,

livingston 21/01/2009 20:49:56
#45 Douglas

On their honeymoon my brother and his new wife not wanting to give away their newly wed status, she said 'quick how do we behave like a married couple?' without missing a beat he gave her his luggage to carry.
47

Taz,

The Land of the Free. 21/01/2009 21:31:45
"Britons were more likely to surrender their spots on the scarce lifeboats to women and children."

What were the Brit guys doing in lifeboats anyway?

48

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 22/01/2009 08:49:20
Its Gordon Browns Fault
49

Fitzpark,

Durham 22/01/2009 10:59:09
If you look at less lurid accounts of this Australian statistical study in other publications, you will find that the numbers are quite striking. The thrust of this research supports the premise that in Britain "doing the right thing" is sometimes more important than self-preservation. A cursory study of behaviour in the British trenches of the First World War supports the same conclusion. Interestingly, accounts of passenger behaviour in the recent Hudson River plane crash, show that gentility and consideration for others has made some headway in America in the past 97 years.

 

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