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Ambulance service says sorry for refusing to help hurt biker



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Published Date: 21 August 2008
THE ambulance service has been ordered to apologise for refusing to send a vehicle to a seriously injured teenage biker at a motocross event in the Lothians.
A transcript has been published of an incredible 15-minute argument between a shift manager at the Scottish Ambulance Service in Edinburgh and the private medics tending the 15-year-old.

Despite the hysterical pleas that the victim – who eventually required plastic surgery on his wounds – was in desperate need of an ambulance, the female manager steadfastly refused to send one.

She argued that because the event was a private one with paid-for medical cover, "NHS resources" could not be used and that there should have been a private ambulance on stand-by. At one point the manager even ranted about private companies under-cutting the ambulance service.

The injured rider was eventually taken to hospital in a people carrier and treated for head and neck injuries.

The Scottish Public Services Ombudsman, who investigated the case, has now ordered the ambulance service to apologise to the youth and his family for "jeopardising his safety" and for the way in which the subsequent complaint was handled.

The service was also ordered to overhaul procedures following the incident in October 2006. The ambulance service said it had accepted the findings and vowed to "act on them accordingly".

No-one involved in the case has been named in the report and the location has not been revealed.

However, it details the frantic call to the ambulance service by the privately-employed emergency "first responder" at the track.

After querying which company was providing medical cover, the manager tells the caller: "I'm sorry, I'm not sending an NHS resource, I'm sorry. I can't send an ambulance and deprive the local community of an NHS resource to transfer a patient."

The caller responded: "I'm sorry, this patient is seriously ill here. He has suspected head and neck injuries and we do not have a vehicle to transport . . So you're going to let this patient be seriously injured?"

The shift manager replied: "No I'm not, you are. You're getting paid at a private hire and you don't have an ambulance. I have an ambulance for people in the community who need an ambulance because of a medical condition."

A committee member then argues: "We have a guy who is bleeding from the mouth, he's agitated, we've got oxygen on him, we need an ambulance."

As the call went on a third person came on and explained: "We've been arguing for ten minutes and this kid could be . ."

Shift manager: "I'm not willing to discuss it later . . sorry but you're not getting an ambulance."

In the judgement, the Ombudsman ruled that, even though protocol was in place for private events to pay for medical cover, in the case of an emergency a shift manager could use their discretion to attend a location.

The Ombudsman's verdict read: "It is clear that the duty manager did not consider the clinical condition of Mr A."

A spokesman for the Scottish Ambulance Service said: "We have accepted the ombudsman's ruling and have apologised to the man and his family."

EXTRACTS FROM THE TRANSCRIPT..

The caller explains the rider's medical situation and after questioning explains that a private ambulance service is at the event.

Shift manager: "Are you working for a private ambulance service?"

Caller: "We are."

Shift manager: "Okay, well I can't send you an ambulance I'm afraid."

Caller one: "We don't have an ambulance on site and we cannot transport as we cannot leave the event."

Shift manager: "Well I'm sorry, I'm not sending an NHS resource, I'm sorry. When you guys put in the business case that should all be addressed, and I can't send an ambulance and deprive the local community of an NHS resource to transfer a patient."

Caller: "I'm sorry, this patient is seriously ill here. He has suspected head and neck injuries and we do not have a vehicle to transport."

The shift manager explains to a member of the committee running the club (caller two) that if they have paid for medical cover they must provide an ambulance.

Caller two: "We have a guy who is bleeding from the mouth, he's agitated, we've got oxygen on him, we need an ambulance."

Shift manager: "No."

Caller two: "You want us to leave this person lying in a field till we get an ambulance? Is that what you're saying?"

Shift manager: "Excuse me, do you want me to leave a person with chest pain who is paying the NHS to get ambulance provision?

The shift manager then asks to speak to whoever is in charge of the incident, at which point caller three, identified as the clerk of the course, takes the phone.

Caller three: "Every meeting we have run for about the last ten years, when we've asked for an ambulance to come on site, they have come on site. This is the first time I've heard of anything like this. I don't understand this at all."

Shift manager then asks to speak to the manager of the private ambulance service.

Shift manager: "I'm sorry, but I'm not sending an ambulance until I clarify exactly what is going on here."

Caller four then brings over his head, identified as caller five, and following more to-ing and fro-ing, he says they will use a car they have.

Caller five: "I'm not going to argue, I'm going to put the phone down."




The full article contains 925 words and appears in Edinburgh Evening News newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 August 2008 1:01 PM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

scorchio,

West of the Pecos 21/08/2008 12:20:21
Just wish the caller had said at the end..."By the way it's your son who's lying here in severe pain"!!
Bet your asss the ambulance would have been despatched pronto pronto.
2

Vision Girl,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 12:24:07
I have never heard the like!!!!!!

The shift manager should be sacked!!!!!!
3

Vision Girl,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 12:24:10
I have never heard the like!!!!!!

The shift manager should be sacked!!!!!!
4

JT,

21/08/2008 12:31:52
Totally disgaceful, the manager should be sacked at the very least, hope the patient is ok, no thanks to her.
5

john3,

21/08/2008 12:33:46
Caught between a rock and a hard place. What if there was not an ambulance for you and you died from a heart attack as a result?
6

,

21/08/2008 12:35:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

alex paterson,

edinburgh 21/08/2008 12:35:15
I hope the young guy is ok,but the manager must be sacked,i hope he is never in need of an ambulance.
8

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 12:37:49
I think the ambulance service had a fair point. This was an event which was required to have private ambulance service because it was specifically introducing serious medical risk by choice. The issue is that the the private ambulance service was not equipped to deal with this emergency. So while I would accept that the ambulance service should have sent an ambulance once it became clear that there was not one available, the true fault here lies with the organisers and the private company, who have failed to do their job.

The reason that events like these are required by law to have medical cover and public liability insurance is that this is a group of people choosing to put their lives and health in danger. The ambulance service has enough to deal with in everyday situations without being expected to provide cover for those who put themselves in harm's way by choice.
9

Trams shams,

21/08/2008 12:42:59
This woman need to have a good look at her self in the mirror! Quite pathetic. This idiot woman must have some American blood in her as this is sums all the bad things up about the wrongs of that type of society
10

,

21/08/2008 12:45:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
11

Brian Ferrari,

21/08/2008 12:49:05
Duncan, you sound like a jobsworth.

The ambulance service did not have a fair point. They should have sent the vehicle immediately and afterwards, by all means, they could bill the event's organisers for the cost.

Hopefully the individuals will be names and shamed. Anybody out there able to identify the event?
12

Howard Moon,

21/08/2008 12:49:21
What absolute rubbish, Duncan in Edinburgh.

'The ambulance service has enough to deal with in everyday situations without being expected to provide cover for those who put themselves in harm's way by choice.'

So if someone jumps from North Bridge, you just leave them? This was a serious incident, which required attention the private service could not provide - but the NHS service could. That it was withheld is a disgrace. What if something major had happened at the track and ten or fifteen people required immediate ambulance or air ambulance, not to mention fire brigade assistance? Would you expect the private attendants to run their ambulance as a shuttle, back and forward to the hospital?

This sums up the emergency services these days. You always seem to have to 'fight your corner' to get anything like appropriate attention, be it when reporting a crime to the police, or trying to get a doctor to listen to your health concerns and not just dismiss them. Really sad.
13

Prin the Dissolving Donkey,

21/08/2008 12:49:59
"Caller four then brings over his head, identified as caller five, and following more to-ing and fro-ing, he says they will use a car they have."

What does this mean?
14

YummyMummy,

21/08/2008 12:50:25
Why wasnt there a private ambulance there?
That aside, an NHS ambulance should of been sent when told there wasnt anyway to transport someone who has suspected head and neck injuries.
15

Mick the celt,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 12:53:42
#8. Ah, a jobsworth.
It is not acceptable to let someone suffer whilst argument rage about the commercial or labour demarcation aspects. It's not a problem that someone lying bleeding should have to worry about. Fix the person and find an appropriate way to deal with the local politics later.
16

Howard Moon,

21/08/2008 12:58:52
Just to give an example -

A couple of years ago I watched a football game played at Fernieside (literally one minute from the New Royal). A player suffered a bad leg break, and was left on the ground, screaming in agony. The club secretary had to virtually beg for an ambulance to be sent, as the person on the phone didn't want to know when they heard the cause. After forty five minutes and several further calls, the player, now shivering and almost passing out with the pain, had to be carried to a car and driven to the hospital, obviously with his injury being further aggrivated. And they call it a national health service!

The problem, I'm sure, wasn't that the paramedics couldn't be bothered to drive up the road and treat him, but that some self-appointed numpty was more concerned with petty protocol and getting off on some sort of power trip. I've experienced the same with GP receptionists numerous times. It was horrific to be a witness to it, I'll never forget it.
17

Epicuras,

21/08/2008 13:02:20
I'll bet the manager has more likely been promoted Than sacked - this just goes to show, there is no place for the private secotr or any of 'it's' working practices anywhere in the NHS
18

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 13:05:48
The "female manager" is not fit for employment. Name her and shame her, then sack her.

The last thing the NHS needs are morons like her working for them, much less being in a position of authority.
19

Pen Fold,

Here 21/08/2008 13:07:49
caller 3 states that ambulances have been called in the previous 10 years and have had no problem whatsoever getting one.

does this not indicate they have never had an ambulance on-site?

to me this indicates a case of gross negligence from the organisers and seriously leave themselves open for legal action, especially if people/competitors are paying such things as entrance fees. surely providing adequate medical attention/services would be a legal requirement.

caller 3's comments would indicate this has never been the case and not learnt from previous incidents where an ambulances have been required. as an outsider it looks decidely like they were cutting corners/costs on safety issues.

although perhaps technically correct, the ambulance service should've sent an ambulance as soon as they found out there was not an ambulance on site. As previous posters have said, the individual's life & health is of paramount importance.

a blessing in disguise? i bet the organisers will have an ambulance on site from now on, if not they should be charged with negligence and, one would assume, breaking H&S regulations.
20

Hmm?,

21/08/2008 13:09:19
Wish all you numbskulls criticsing Duncan at 8#'s comments would actually read them properly before letting your bellies rumble.

At no point did Duncan say that he approved of the Manager's actions and in fatc he agreed that an ambulance should have been sent. He merely made the point that you would surely expect private cover for an event with a high risk of injury to include ambulance cover.
21

YummyMummy,

21/08/2008 13:11:17
#19

That is what i was thinking. At an event like that, there SHOULD be an ambulance. There's always one at places like Knockhill and Crail, why not motorcross?
Sounds stupid to me!!
But as i said before, the ambulance should of been sent anyway.
22

Who let the dogs out?,

21/08/2008 13:15:48
That manager should be sacked !

she was lucky she didnt have a death on her hands
23

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 13:24:10
#20 Thanks. :-) I think it's clear to anyone that once it was established that there was not an ambulance available, an NHS one should have been sent. But quite simply there *should have been* an ambulance available to transport an injured person to NHS care, and it is a gross failing of the organisers that there wasn't one. It is deeply unfair for all the opprobrium to fall on the head of an NHS ambulance worker when the cause of the problem lies elsewhere.

If that means that they need two vehicles - one to treat people on-site and a second to transport the seriously injured to hospital - then two vehicles must be provided. If that means that the cost of staging the event goes up then so be it - and people will choose either to take part or not. But to suggest that the cost of the vent should be subsidised by the NHS is utterly preposterous.
24

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

21/08/2008 13:47:31
We need to break the responder's legs and withhold an ambulance. Really, it's the only language they'll understand.

The irony is of course that the "precious NHS resource" would have been transporting someone to Outpatients from Fife because they couldn't be bothered to drive, get a taxi, or take a bus and knew that the system is easy to work.,
25

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 13:54:34
Neither Hmm? nor Duncan seem to understand motorsport events.

Emergency medical cover has to be provided in accordance with the rules of whatever body the event comes under. Depending upon the event, this cover can comprise anything from a couple of first aiders in a St. Andrew's (or St. Johns) ambulance for a minor club meet, right up to full paramedic cover with an evacuation chopper on standby, as at Formula 1 events.

This is provided in accordance with the rules of the various motor racing clubs and associations---and was incidentally brought about by the tireless campaigning of one Sir Jackie Stewart.

The compulsory provision of cover DOES NOT detract from the fact that the regular ambulance/medical service are obliged to step in, if their assistance is requested---without argument. Whether they charge for the service later is another matter which can be sorted out after the event. In short, if they are faced with an emergency call, they are duty bound to respond.
26

,

21/08/2008 13:54:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 13:55:57
#24 Patient transport ambulances are not the same as paramedic ambulances. And from my family's experience, the availability of patient transport is highly restricted. But if people are playing the system then surely we must blame them - not the ambulance service!
28

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

21/08/2008 13:56:51
#16: I can top that one.

Many years ago, my sister was hit by a speeding car as she alighted from a bus. Luckily she was right next to the ambulance depot. Unluckily they were on strike. They sat in front of their braziers, and refused to take out an ambulance despite the fact she was clearly in danger of death and the nearest hospital was twenty miles away. My sister, semi-concious and very badly injured, thought she was dying and said her goodbyes to family.

The police, who had a station next door, spent 90 minutes removing the seats from one of their minibuses to get her to hospital, which took another half hour. Nobody involved was in any doubt that the ambulance staff on picket that day put her life unnecessarily at risk.

The irony: we lived nearby and my sister had in the recent few days, been taking soup and tea down to the staff on picket duty.

Don't make the mistake of concluding that all ambulance staff are like this. Far from it, but sadly some are.
29

Allan Retentive,

21/08/2008 14:00:31
"No-one involved in the case has been named in the report and the location has not been revealed."

If only there were someone in the Edinburgh Evening News who had the job of gathering these (fairly significant) details. You might call it "journalism".
30

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 14:02:04
#25,26 What part of "the ambulance service should have sent an ambulance once it became clear that there was not one available" did you not understand?

#25 My point remains that those who choose to endanger their own lives and health have a responsibility to ensure that they do not consequentially endanger the lives and health of others. That is one of the reasons why such events have their own medical cover, and it seems clear to me that the cover at this event has been shown to be deficient.
31

Cynicaltalk,

21/08/2008 14:05:00
The ethos of the NHS/ambulance service must be to help and treat people who are injured or ill, regardless of how they came about to be in such a position.

The manager should have exercised discretion and ensured that the person involved recieved the best appropriate treatment for their injuries. Any argument over funding and cost could have been resolved through legal channels at a later date.
32

YummyMummy,

21/08/2008 14:07:16
#29

I think it would of been in Dunbar.
33

Brian Ferrari,

21/08/2008 14:08:04
Duncan #30

There is potentially a life/death time difference between:

"once it became clear that there was not (an ambulance) available"

and

"immediately"
34

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 14:14:28
#33 This should be, and was, established at the start of the conversation. Therefore the two options are analogous.

What is fascinating to me is that we are now "after the event" when, according to various posters, blame should be discussed and agreed, and yet many people still maintain no fault on the part of the organisers.

My only observation is that while it was wrong for an ambulance not to have been sent once the lack of one was established, the underlying blame for the lack of a suitable private ambulance is that of the event organisers and/or their subcontractors.
35

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 14:20:43
Duncan:

"What part of "the ambulance service should have sent an ambulance once it became clear that there was not one available" did you not understand?"

None of it.

The point here is really about the incompetence of the supposed "female manager". Clearly she did not understand a part of "Someone is seriously injured, please send an ambulance".

It is about time the investigative journalists got into this kind of thing instead of just trying to smear people. Find out her name, post it on these pages, hold her up as an example of a complete, incompetent, stupid moron and sack her.

As for motor racing being dangerous, so is just about any sport you care to name, with the possible exception of curling or bowls. Do we apply the same rules to them or are you just having a dig because the internal combustion engine happens to be involved?
36

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 14:25:19
#35 Why do you want a scapegoat so much? You would first have to establish what she was trained to do in these circumstances - perhaps it wasn't her decision. "Naming and shaming" is the bedfellow of "zero tolerance" - a tabloid response to complex issues which does nothing to resolve them.

Some sports are significantly more dangerous than others - and, more to the point, more expensive to cover. I have the same view of those who head out to sea in a dinghy and then call the coastguard out when they get into trouble. Why should genuine emergencies be jeopardised by those who are choosing to put themselves in harm's way?
37

Toast,

21/08/2008 14:39:39
The event organiser should be prosecuted and the venue banned from any future events without proper cover,the injured party should also be compensated by the organiser,why ambulance couldn't be hired to collect the victim is beyond me.
38

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

21/08/2008 15:06:15
Duncan has an enquiring mind:

"Why do you all want to scapegoat so much?"

Gee, I dunno. Because it's fun?
39

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 15:16:07
#38 Actually it was "Why do you want a scapegoat so much?" (which makes rather more sense than your version) and it was addressed to old Petrolhead.
40

Sports for Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 15:16:37
The point here is the event organiser chose a private medical company over the NHS as they were cheaper. As a result the private company should have been providing ALL medical cover. That being said the child was sriously injured and should have been helped.

I see the point here being I could set up a private medical company, charge less than the NHS and if anything went wrong just call the NHS... which wouldn't be right.

IMO the NHS shouldnt have hesitated, but then the private medical company should have been charged tens of thousands for the ambulance, and then proscuted for having the incorrect facilities on site. The event should then have been fined for not have ensured the correct facilities were on site - with all the cash going to the NHS.

Hope the kid is alright now.
41

likkitysplit,

Huh 21/08/2008 15:17:04
I agree with duncan but can only guess as to the real truth behind the events.

My guess is it works like this:
Event organiser contracts the cheapest medical care service that can provide the minimum level required by the sports governing body. The minimum level is generally adequate for all but the most serious mishaps. The private medic company exsists to make a profit and so will provide the minimum service contracted and will perform a risk assessment of the probability and type of incidents that may occur. This risk calculation includes a constant which is that the NHS (i.e. the tax payer) is always there to make up any shortfall. So the more the event organisers go for the cheap option (because serious problems dont occur that often), the less they use (and pay for) the NHS and over time funding is withdrawn from this service since demand is reduced. Now that directly affects me and my loved ones.

Therefore, I propose that this wasnt the first time the duty manager has come across this situation however it may have been the first time she decided not to send the ambulance.


42

likkitysplit,

Alternative 21/08/2008 15:25:26
Events and clubs should be permitted to contract private companies to provide general first aid type services but must pay a fixed rate (based on a dangerousness of the sport and the number of people in attendance) to the NHS in case the worst happens.

That way everyones happy.
43

bigladatthebackpost,

edinburgh 21/08/2008 15:49:30
Duncan is absolutely spot on. I find it disgusting that the company allegedly providing medical cover had no means to transport casualties.

Still, the controller should've used common sense and sent a vehicle whilst she was arguing with them, thereby saving everyone's time and possibly the patient's ability to walk.
44

tomias,

Edinburgh 21/08/2008 15:55:51
In sending a state ambulance then the event should have been sent the account; think road traffic accidents!
Had it been the other way round?
The lassie i/c ambulance sevices was only obeying the rules- now in other circumstances she would have been sacked.
Market Forces Folks market forces.
45

hibbyspurs,

21/08/2008 16:15:48
The fact that the ambulance service would not attend what was quite obviously a medical emergency is a disgrace. Whether or not it occoured at a "dangerous" sporting event is irrelevant...

You cant withold a service such as this because of what "might" happen elsewhere, you must act on the facts at hand which is a young man was lying seriously hurt and was in need of urgent medical attention, end of.

I assume the lad is a British Citizen who either he (or his parents as he's quite young) have made national insurance contributions like the rest of us? Therefore he is entitled to emergency assistance under the laws of our land.

Yes, it was extremlely foolhardy of the organisers ta arrange such an event without a fully equipped private ambulance/ paramedic team in attendance, I have family who participate in road race motorcycling and the major track in Lothian (East Fortune) has two such teams with fully equipped ambulance on stand by at the track during there meetings as a matter of course.

The riders pay their entry fees to race (motor sport is not cheap to participate in) and should expect that properly trained people and proper equipment is available to ensure they reicieve the best possible attention should they need it. It is an equal disgrace that the organisers of this event chose to put the young mans life in danger because "they had never had cause for an ambulance before", a cost cutting exrecise may well have cost someones life here.

Yes the shift manager should be sacked for the callous and jobsworth manner in which they handled the incident but equally the organisers should take a long hard look at their part in this.

End of the story is though that all are entitled to free emergency care under the NHS & this lad was denied that basic civil right which is a disgrace.
46

Arrow,

edinburgh 21/08/2008 16:19:20
#30 grrat idea. would the same apply to bthose suffering from smoking related problems caused by their own actions. perhaps drunks who injure themselves should be held liable for the costs of ambulances and being treated.

re the "she was only obeying the rules" i beleive it is guidance but i recall my old boss telling me that "rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" (or women)
47

hibbyspurs,

21/08/2008 16:21:23
#35

I dont know mate, have you ever been hit by a curling stone? Sore shins ah bet.... :-)
48

tumshie heid,

21/08/2008 17:19:34
How can anyone defend this managers stance? The ambulance should have been sent straight away and then, if required a bill sent.
To argue for 15 minutes about protocol whilst a lad is lying injured is disgraceful and the person responsible should be disciplined.
We have no place in society for jobsworth numpties such as this cretin.
49

A Friend of Fernando Poo,

21/08/2008 17:29:12
What happens if there's already a wifie with a pram in the ambulance?
50

archie12,

21/08/2008 17:39:41
So, Duncan: "The ambulance service has enough to deal with in everyday situations without being expected to provide cover for those who put themselves in harm's way by choice." What do you mean by that? Can you give some guidelines? Organised sports or leisure activities as well? That sentence would suggest that not only sports or activities but also lifestyle choices would be in the firing line? Is that correct?
51

archie12,

21/08/2008 17:41:40
Incidentally, funny how these days instead of Senior paramedics, Senior Police Officers or Senior Fire Officers we now have a constant stream of "managers" who have no practical experience of operational demands but can sure tell you who should have the space nearest the door in the staff car park!!
52

Driver,

lasswade 21/08/2008 17:45:10
Here's a simplified version of what happens at these events. Organisers apply for a licence stating what is happening, this is then quickly risk assessed on paper and in an even where public safety is an issue the licensing authority will say ambulance cover is required in order that an event may take place.

Organiser then does a heads or tails.....pay for private ambulance cover and get what they have available at about £500 per day, which in most instances is someone with no better qualification than a first aid certificate or hire in an ambulance off Scottish Ambulance Service and pay the going rate to have a two manned crew on stand all day. one or both crew members will be a paramedic and the going rate for that service will be nearer £1500 per day. That cost is justified because a crew needs to be taken from their days off and brought in on overtime, and a vehicle has to be "hired" to be stood at an event all day. This is so no other services to the local community are affected.

Too often the private ambulance service is nothing more than some clown who has bought an old or ex ambulance once they have been disposed of by the SAS, and kitted it out from old or surplus stock bought from dubious sources like e-bay.

When a real emergency happens they are then caught out and in this case the shift manager was entirely right as the organisers had decided to buy in a private service.

People involved in these private ambulance companies are unregulated and at some point this should be addressed, if the organisers had insisted on paramedic cover as part of their agreement with the private servic then the whole situation would never have gotten out of control the way it did.
53

Charles MN,

21/08/2008 18:16:50
#52
Thanks for the informative post.

It shows what the real problem is. If the SAS are charging £1500 for an ambulance and crew for the day about £1200 is profit to SAS ( unless the crew are getting paid far better than I think they are ). It looks like the SAS are more concerned about the lost profit than peoples health.

How many sports bodies can afford to spend £1500 on ambulance cover for an event? Thats more than many professional football clubs pay their entire team.

Is it really a good use of a paramedic and ambulance technician to have them sitting watching an event on the off-chance that they might have to do something when they could be out answering calls?
54

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/08/2008 18:31:44
#53 I'm sure the cost of provision is far above £300 - it's not just wages you know!

For a full day event there are likely to be at least 30 competitors - probably more. This amounts to £50 per head at most for highly trained medical support.

If people aren't prepared to pay that then they have the choice not to take part.
55

Charles MN,

21/08/2008 19:37:13
#54
What would these extra costs be?

The total cost of the SAS is £170m. It has about 3600 crew members. Say each works 200 days per year. That gives a total cost per crew member of 170M/3600/200 = 236 per day or £472 per ambulance. But this includes air ambulances, training and many other thing not applicable to having 2 guys in an ambulance sitting around.

Have you ever been involved in amateur sport? £1500 is probably 3 times what it cost to organise any sporting event I have been involved with. Many clubs survive on a few thousand a year. If you were to start charging £50 per competitor there would be very little sport in the UK.

In fact at £1500 you could get a couple of Doctors to turn out.
56

Driver,

lasswade 21/08/2008 19:38:46
#53 All sports bodies have options other than the SAS-they could hire ST Andrews or ST Johns Ambulance, which is also very expensive and again the best you will have in attendance is an advanced first aider who is voluntary and not accountable;A private doctor who most likely would be on their own with no ambulance cover and costs approx £600-£800 per day or they can call in a private Ambulance company, which they chose to do.

What they didn't do was hire in an appropriate ambulance cover/company. They chose ambulance cover which amounted to no more than a people carrier with a first aider on-board.

The shift manager should have made a decision to cover the emergency then objected to the organiser or licensing body for any future events as a breach of the licence for that event had surely taken place.

Like any other sporting event, football matches, rugby or show jumping or anything at all that carries a life or limb risk to either the participants or members of the public there were and are very definite health and safety rules laid out for these events which were clearly ignored or side swiped in order to save money.

The organisers have a duty of care and if they thought they had paid for proper ambulance cover and someone in a people carrier has turned up then why are the SAS being made the butt f the complaint? Surely that's what should be the most important discussion point to come out of this farce

The event organiser should be stripped of ever being allowed to hold a public event until they can prove they are capable of protecting the interests of both the particiapants and spectators.
57

Driver,

lasswade 21/08/2008 19:47:28
The cost of hire is the cost of hire, in this instance that should be irrelevant. The fact is someone put on a motorbiking event with a first aider as the main point of cover for any likely accident. Weigh that up for a second, most bike injuries if the rider is fully protected will still amonut to broken wrist, arms collar bones and if an open face helmet is worn then you'r also looking at the possibility of facial imjuries.

And that's just the rider, there's also serious risks to spectators when accidents occour. On most occassions members of the public are charged to go to these events and that's what pays for the ambulance cover.

Once someone decides it's a private event and therefore private ambulance cover is being provided then the decision has already been made that the SAS are not on stand-by for this event.

You may like to have a swipe at the SAS but the fact is the inadequate provision made by the event organiser is at the root of the problem.

I'd hazard a guess that there will be some serious objections raised the next time they apply for a licence to hold a public event.....or there should be
58

stormtrooper,

edinburgh 21/08/2008 19:50:52
When the Scottish Ambulance Service is hired to attend these events, the vehicles are dedicated to the vent. If a patient has to be moved the on scene crew/manager will requedst another vehicle from outwith the event to atten. this is exactly the same scenario as reprted here. It was only a year or so ago when a similar event happened in Glasgow. The parents of a young person could see an ambulance at a football ground only minutes from the house, but SAS stated that it could not leave as it was a dedicated "private hire". the same applies at football/ rugby events, if players or spectators are injured then a "Communty" on shift vehicle is deployedto uplift/transfer the patient. The only difference between this case and the cases involving SAS private hire is that the SAS is not making a profit here
59

Charles MN,

21/08/2008 19:59:37
#57 If the SAS were not trying to make significant profits out of this there would not be a problem. Who would contract a private company if they could get the SAS to it for the same money? As I showed above at £500 a day they would still be making a profit.
60

Driver,

lasswade 21/08/2008 20:03:40
#58 the main difference here is that the company providing ambulance cover didn't have any cover! had they done so then there would be nothing to write about here. In a football match at any of the main events there are never ever only one vehicle or crew on scene, there a person to crew relationship.

if there's only one vehicle and crew there then the initial risk assessment has shown that there are very little possibility of a serious injury-If you look outside and inside Tynecastle or Easter Road you'll find there are several SAS peopel on scene and also lots of first aiders St Andrews or similar.

I'd doubt very strongly if that was the case at a motor-bike event
61

The Geniune Mario Antionette,

21/08/2008 20:12:47
thats women for you, though. she should be disciplined &/or sacked for neglect of duty.
62

Charles MN,

21/08/2008 20:36:57
#60 "The cost of hire is the cost of hire, in this instance that should be irrelevant."

What planet are you on?

At Tyncastle there are 18,000 people who have paid half a million pounds to get in. The cost of a couple of ambulances is less than one players wages for a week.

If you go to Inverleith you will see far more footballers and no ambulance.

If you go to Hillend you see people throwing themselves down a hill and no ambulance.

In both cases if someone gets hurt an ambulance is dispatched. Thats the way it works in every sport I've ever played. In 20 years of playing rugby I never heard of an ambulance not being dispatched because we had organised a Doctor (our own private hire).


63

Driver,

lasswade 21/08/2008 20:50:34
people deciding to go to Hillend paragliding or ski-ing or playing football on a public park on a Sunday is hardly in the same category as an organised motorcycle meeting.

You're deliberately missing the point i think. The show organisers decided to operate the even with a private ambulance service, one that will have cost about £500 and the cover that they got was inadequate.

There was no obligation on anyone else after they decided to go for that option, that was a choice they made on their own.

The fact they required ambulance cover would suggest to me that this wasn't a few kids mucking about on dirt bike but instead it was an organised show.

if it were a small event then no ambulance cover would be required, instead people would just phone if and when one might be required. The same as at Hillend and the same as at Inverleith so the decision was taken away from the SAS by the organisers.

Even if it was a 5 a side tournament at Meadowbank as soon as the numbers reach a certain level then there has to be a medical provision made
64

Driver,

lasswade 21/08/2008 20:52:42
THe provision is for medical cover and that would be covered by a Rugby Club Dr.

This has to have been a spectator included public event or no ambulance cover would be required
65

Charles MN,

21/08/2008 21:20:30
#63
"There was no obligation on anyone else after they decided to go for that option, that was a choice they made on their own."

I think that really is where you have lost the plot. As medical profesionals paid for by the public the fact that someone is seriously hurt does impose an obligation to assist if possible.

The fact that someone has paid extra to increase the level of safety cover does not reduce the NHS's obligation to assist.

This is the type of incident we used to laugh at the Americans about.

You only need to read the comments above to show that people are shocked by this case. Perhaps I should be asking my MSP what has gone wrong with the ambulance service and what he is going to do to sort it out.

#64 All top level rugby games require a Doctor present by SRU regs. My club pays for a Doctor despite the President being a GP and I doubt it costs 1/10th of £1500.
66

Scotish Exile,

21/08/2008 21:44:27
Is it not criminal that at an event like a motocross event that there is no ambulance.

At point to points for example (amateur horse racing), there must be ambulances present (to take any injured riders to hospital), so why not at motocross events??
67

Charles MN,

21/08/2008 22:05:44
#66
You never get the whole story with this rag. Apparently the Ambulance was already in use so they asked for SAS backup.

http://www.buteman.co.uk/latest-scottish-news/Ambulance-service-slammed-over-boy.4411572.jp
68

Don't believe the hype.,

Embra 21/08/2008 23:02:16
A jobsworth playing God!
69

Charles MN,

21/08/2008 23:12:35
#68
Reading the Ombudsmans report it seems not to have been totally her fault:
"
Finally in the health sector this month, an unusual
complaint highlights confusion in the Scottish
Ambulance Service over whether or not an
ambulance should be sent when it is called for from
an event that is serviced by private medical cover.
The details of the complaint brought by the parents
of a 15 year old young man, who sustained head
and facial injuries during a motor cross event are
summarised below (Ref: 200700008). I concluded
that there was a tension over the Service’s ‘historical
and constrictive position not to respond to 999 calls
from private hire events’ and that this led to ‘an
unacceptable situation for both staff and public’.
I fully upheld the complaint, and welcome the steps
that the Service has taken since the events of this
case to amend its guidance and practice to respond
to all 999 calls from private hire events."
70

tumshie heid,

21/08/2008 23:24:04
Driver; Are you seriously saying that because the organisers hadn't arranged sufficient ambulance cover then the lad should have (as he was) been left to suffer?
If you are then you are a disgrace to the ambulance profession and perhaps you should take a look at your priorities. When someone is in need of medical care I shudder to think how you deal with it on the basis of your callous posting here.
I don't care whether the organisers should have provided more cover, the fact is they didn't and to deny treatment for the sake of petty buerocracy is a disgrace.
71

James Collins,

22/08/2008 00:18:32
I've been involved with various contact sports. The ambulance (not the guys who do the bikes) is the most expensive thing involved with a game. £150 an hour +.

While some will normally wait for the ambulance to return if it leaves, rugby has just called 999. I've also seen ambulances called for at other large events (football, festivals, etc) where there were medical staff.

Say you have an event that may have a posibility of 3 people that need to go to hospital. That means you need 4 crews at a big price for there to definatly be someone on site at all times. And for a slim chance that they may all go at the same time. And then what do you do when the fifth person comes along? Calling SAS is a perfectly normal procedure for anyone who has ever had to organise an event of any size.
72

Local Granny,

22/08/2008 07:42:38
Once again the faceless staff in the control room of the SAS leave the staff 'on the ground' to face the flak that will undoubtedly be directed towards the Ambulance service!
Can I ask the question - does the person in question needing the Ambulance not also pay their taxes & NI contributions which would entitle them to the same use of NHS services as the rest of us?
73

Gehon,

22/08/2008 08:56:36
EYE drive ambulance
74

Don't believe the hype.,

Embra 22/08/2008 11:37:46
#69

A jobsworth playing God!
75

TLF,

Bedfordshire 22/08/2008 14:23:19
I'm an ENP working at a motox practice track every weekend, and I work alone. If a race meeting is taking place under ACU or British Motorsport rules, then the medical company contracted to provide ambulance services must supply a vehicle capable of transporting a pt to hospital. The problem arises if the ambulance is already off-site - then, the ambulance service is often called. However, for practice tracks, like the one where I work, there are no such rules. In fact, site owners don't even have a legal duty to provide medics, but many do. Considering the number of riders we have, serious injuries, or those requiring us to call the ambulance service are pretty rare. When we do, most crews are quite happy to help. There are the odd ones though that are downright rude to the patients and claim they shouldn't have to be picking up someone who was involved in motor sport. These tracks provide a legal place for people to ride - would others prefer that riders use public land? From experience I know they wouldn't. Local councils will probably also back that up, judging by complains received. Motox riders also have to be fairly fit to partake of their sport. Of course, if we listen to certain members of the ambulance service, these riders should just stay at home, sitting on their sofas, getting heart disease instead - a much more costly drain on NHS resources. All sports have an element of risk, why single out motox? Our riders have paid their tax and NI. They're entitled to the service and, while we avoid using it where possible, if it's needed, they should receive it.
76

Stilo,

Yorkshire 23/08/2008 12:00:55
MotoX is viewed by most as a anti-social sport, that is why 99.9% of the time we race in a field at the back of beyond so as not to disturb the beauty sleep of Sas shift managers etc.
For this very same reason 99.9% of organized events always have a ambulance and trained staff on site, infact usually mandatory just to comply with insurance and/or governing body rules. BUT more so it,s just plane old common sense, we are not idiot kids riding illegally round a field, we are parents and responsible riders.
What does happen is that a rider in a earlier race gets hurt so the ambulance is on route to hospital. Often there are 2 ambulance`s on site 1 usualy a quick response 4*4 which is needed because of the terrain, but again some times(rarely as pos) both are off site at the same time leaving just paramedic`s on site. which I think is probaly the case at this event and in no way could this be reasonably prepared for Ie: more ambulances etc.
The main point to me thou is this.
A 15yr old child was seriously injured and was judged by a trained paramedic, not some hairy arsed biker in a field, but a trained professional paramedic to need hospital treatment and a ambulance was needed. END OFF
The professional response should have been "it,s on the way"
In not doing so this women broke her legal and moral dutie to protect this child and should be sacked. END OFF
77

JADED,

Lothians 24/08/2008 01:03:29
The women should be sacked. Another jumped up, wannabe working for SAS. Probably no medical qualifications, or any qualifications for that matter! On a power trip and as #17 said "Probably been promoted now" Has anyone noticed how much bad press there is about the SAS these days? Something not right in the way it's being managed I think. What about the private business that was being run from the SAS training school. That was quickly swept under the carpet. The SAS is a shambles, and it is the general public that suffers once again. About time the SAS had an overhaul get rid of these so called Managers, and put people who know what they are doing in post.

 

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