Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Thursday, 26th November 2009

Dogs' tail-docking: the kindest cut?

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 08 February 2007
JIM Clark's dogs are happy. You can tell that by their glossy coats, eager faces and wagging stumps. For all four of the springer spaniels jumping around at their master's feet have had their tails docked, although they certainly wag what is left of them furiously when being petted or given another treat.
To suggest these dogs have been treated cruelly is an insult not only to Mr Clark, but to hundreds of other dog owners around Scotland who have had their dogs' tails cut short as puppies.

Yet this is exactly what the Scottish Executive did yesterday, with a ban on the docking of dogs' tails, complete with the threat of a £5,000 fine and six months in jail for anyone found guilty of the offence.

Not since the ban on hunting with dogs has any issue so aptly illustrated the split between town and country.

With the closure of rural post offices looming over Scotland, the increasing burden of regulations from Brussels and the fight for services such as schools and hospitals, countryside campaigners said the ban was further evidence of the Scottish Parliament's lack of understanding of the ways of rural people.

The ban on tail docking is actually one of several animal welfare reforms to go through the Scottish Parliament without much question.

But it has caused a furore on the scale of the hunting ban, with gamekeepers protesting outside parliament that the Executive had been forced to delay bringing in the regulation. However, it seemed once again the Executive was not listening to the countryside.

Yesterday, Ross Finnie, the environment and rural development minister, announced that, after further consultation with vets and other interested parties, a ban would come in on 30 April this year - subject to almost certain approval by parliament.

"Tail-docking of dogs involves the removal of most or part of the tail, severing muscles, tendons, nerves and sometimes bone or cartilage," he said. "That cannot be justified because of a possibility that the dog may injure its tail in later life."

Police and local authority inspectors will use a range of powers under animal heath and welfare acts to enforce the law. It will also be illegal to transport breeding bitches to another country, including England, Ireland or Wales, where docking is still legal, with the intention of having puppies' tails removed.

"A ban on tail-docking is not a step which we have taken lightly," Mr Finnie said. "Tail-docking is opposed by the leading veterinary organisations, and I'm clear that ending tail-docking will improve animal welfare in Scotland."

However, Alex Hogg, the chairman of the Scottish Gamekeepers Association, said the law would do the opposite.

He said exuberant working dogs, such as spaniels, almost never stopped wagging their tails. This put them at risk of injury in dense cover or small spaces.

"The minister has failed in his obligation to protect the welfare of our working dogs and condemned many breeds to a life of pain in his attempt to curry favour with animal rights activists," he said.

Mr Hogg also said the breeding industry would lose out on income, as well as pedigree bloodlines, as docked puppies would be brought up from England and Wales, or even smuggled in dire conditions from Ireland, instead of being bred in Scotland.

"It is wee small things slicing away at us all the time," he said. "They [the Scottish Executive] are just listening to an urban voice. They are not listening to the rural voice."

Neil Rafferty, of the Scottish Countryside Alliance, said the ban showed a misunderstanding of the countryside. "Country people love animals, so when we support tail-docking it is because we know leaving tails long harms working dogs," he said.

"Scotland is an urban country and the Scottish Parliament is dominated by urban MSPs, so there is still an underlying deficiency when it comes to rural affairs. We want to close that gap. It is their duty to understand all the different ways of life in Scotland."

Mr Rafferty said he would not be surprised to see people who were passionate about working dogs vote according to the issue.

On a wider scale, he warned that all parties should be aware of countryside issues, such as concern over wind farms, field sports and business regulations, unless they wanted to be punished in May's Scottish parliamentary elections.

"It would be a stupid politician who ignored the countryside and its opinions," he said.

However, James Withers, deputy chief executive of the farming campaign group NFU Scotland, welcomed the measures that still allowed tail-docking, castration and horn removal of farm animals for welfare reasons.

He said: "In reality, issues such as fox hunting and tail-docking are a distraction. The key areas of concern for farmers in the coming elections are things like the powers of supermarkets and unnecessary red tape. That will do far more for the future industry than these other debates."

No pain for puppies

JIM Clark has seen days-old puppies have their tails docked without even waking up. "There is no pain whatsoever to the dogs, as opposed to what happens if they are left long," says the champion dog trainer.

The owner of four English springer spaniels has been keeping dogs for 14 years and every one has had its tail docked for welfare reasons.

Three-eighths of the tail is cut off while the puppies are a few days old, to take the curl out of the tail. If left long the constantly wagging tails of working dogs are more likely to be injured, often splitting, meaning painful amputation.

"People talk about dogs being mutilated. It is complete and utter nonsense. The people enforcing this law do not know about the dogs and they do not understand," he said.

The 63-year-old from Ladybank in Fife has twice won the British championships of field trials. The sport requires a close relationship between the dog and its trainer, and Mr Clark argued it would be impossible to form this bond if the owner was cruel.

"Dogs are part of your life when you are competing at that level; they have to love their owner," he said. "They would not do the work with you unless you had a relationship with them. They have to trust in you implicitly."

Mr Clark also breeds dogs, but he is now going to be forced to buy dogs from England, where tail-docking is legal.

"I would not compete with a dog without a docked tail. People competing will get their puppies down south," he said.

Although vets have officially given their backing to the ban, Mr Clark said most are still happy to dock the tails of working dogs for welfare reasons.

"These dogs are really, really happy dogs. This is what they are bred for and that is what they love to do, and for someone to turn around and say this cannot be done and put down a law against it is absolutely ridiculous.

"They are certainly not in full possession of the facts, or they just would not do it."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 February 2007 2:52 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Hunting
 
1

,

08/02/2007 00:32:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Moray Stewart,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 00:42:08

The Scottish Executive spend most of their time passing legislation for which their is neither a need nor a demand - for example the ban on fur farming when there are no fur farms in Scotland in the first place.

They make no genuine attempt to assess the impact, positive or otherwise, of their legislation, their uninformed and dogmatic opinions being sufficient.

3

Conan,

Here 08/02/2007 00:47:55

SE is pandering to the urban self-annointed illuminati and ignorant urban masses who want to ban everything that won't fit, or be welcome, in their brave new world.

Country folks and knowing dog owners are entirely correct; while the docking has become a 'fashion statement' and 'definition' for some breeds, its origins did come from a consideration of the welfare and safety of the animal during its work.

But that's OK, go ahead and ban it, and ban ice slides, and air guns, and whatever else.

Then, you'll still be left with dealing with the 10% of the public that causes 98% of the trouble - how will you 'ban' them? We can only wait and see!

Just remember that a government that can do everything for you, can also do everything to you. So, be careful what you wish for - all you bleeding heart utopians out there.

TY SE for keeping me and my Jack Russel so safe.

4

,

08/02/2007 00:51:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

belzebub,

city centre 08/02/2007 00:52:00

Yet another example of the HOLLYWOOD numpties who have no knowledge of anything trying to justify their existence.
God help us all !

6

Bonnie Laddie,

08/02/2007 01:02:38

Buy a dog tht don’t need tail dockin’ - Deerhounds are forever !

7

macdonaj,

Manitoba Canada 08/02/2007 01:03:45

Pure and simply put it contitutes animal cruelty and can not be condoned in any shape or form.

Why anyone would want to cause pain to an animal
because it is the fashion is absolutely beyond me.No doubt they think of themselves as animal lovers.What unmitigated garbage.

8

Gnasher,

08/02/2007 01:05:10

Could they not use the tails to make soup?

9

Gnasher,

08/02/2007 01:07:41

"Mr Rafferty said he would not be surprised to see people who were passionate about working dogs vote according to the issue."

I'd love to know which parties are going to make a stand over puppy dogs' tails!

10

Yane,

Melbourne 08/02/2007 01:08:08

Working dogs here never get their tails docked -- that's a fashion among dog breeders. A friend of mine witnessed them docking them once -- the puppies yelp wi' pain. Why do they think it doesn't hurt? Cos they don't say anything? I notice Mr. Hogg doesn't like "wee small things slicing away all the time". Ha!

11

Faye,

scotland 08/02/2007 01:17:23

If someone docked my tail, I'd be angry.

It's animal cruelty.

Soon we'll be hearing about 'concrete booties' and trips to the Clyde.

12

Kittitas County,

Ellensburg, USA 08/02/2007 01:40:19

I'm mising something. I'm not humane because I haven't docked the tail of my 135 pound Chesapeake Bay Retriever? He's one phenomenal gun dog that breaks his way through hawthorn, teasel thickets, blackberry patches, stream willow and cut corn fields to bring back the quail, pheasant, chukar and grouse that I've brought down with my Parker 12 side by side? (...not to mention breaking through the ice to bring back the duck and geese too...). This guy is one gigantic hunting buddy and retrieving machine and I have a hard time imagining getting back to the truck and not have that huge tail wacking the window and my head as he expresses his pleasure from a great day in the field. Docking tails? I'm of the opinion that it's a practice of the snooty- elbow- patch- tweedy- hunt- club -I -have- a -Range -Rover set. My hunting buddy has an English Setter (he's on his third in 32 years) which has yet to have the much-ballyhoo'd straw-man tail fracture.

13

Statsman,

08/02/2007 01:45:39

These dog competitionists are rather weird, like those people that make their kids dress like whores and put them in beauty pagents.

14

Gnasher,

08/02/2007 01:59:15

#3. Conan, Here - "urban self-annointed illuminati" - you got me to a T!

15

julien brellier,

08/02/2007 02:22:58

when my next terrier dies from having its tail ripped off on a barbed wire fence whilst doing its job I'll send ross finnie the carcass. I dont have my terriers tails docked because it looks good but to save them the misfortune of another which was caught down a concrete pipeline whilst chasing a rat and was dead 1 day later, after we finally got the all clear to smash our way through to get to her.she bled to death,her tail caught up in a pile of discarded wire which was in turn was snagged on a piece of reinforcing rod.

16

sheena,

at home 08/02/2007 02:27:50

Hey Breeder leave the dogs alone.

Cue for a song, Scaramouche?

17

TomCayman,

08/02/2007 02:28:38

#12 "dog competitionists" ? Numerous breeds traditionally have their tails docked for the exact reasons stated in the article. This isn't about making dogs look different for competition.

IMHO this truly is about country vs city.. yet again.

I grew up in a household with a breed of dogs that have their tail docked, and yes, I have seen tiny puppies having their tails docked and it is not traumatic to them at all.

Surely our Scottish Executive has more important things to do ?

18

California Scot,

USA 08/02/2007 02:45:45

note to USA, SE, and EU, UK et al......the Romans had a saying....the more the laws, the worse the republic.

19

Graeme,

Guangzhou 08/02/2007 03:48:37

#6 Pain to an animal? I should hope not.

Circumcision should be banned as well. Legal mutilation of children. Appendages formed over thousands of years of evolution cut off? Who could condone that?

20

Guga,

Rockall 08/02/2007 03:52:21

This attempt to say that this form of cruelty to animals is acceptable to the rural community is utter bulldust. It is also nothing to do with differences between rural and urban dwellers. I wish these prats would stop trying to put across this garbage that they represent rural people; they do not.

Docking dogs tails is unnecessary and cruel. Nor is it a necessity for working dogs. I have had many working dogs over the years, from Spaniel gun dogs to Red Heeler cattle dogs. None of them have ever had, or needed to have, their tails docked. This is done purely because it has become fashionable amongst assorted idiot dog breeders and their foolish clients, and for no other reason. There never has been, or will be any justification for it.

21

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 08/02/2007 05:57:22

Great!
All the ills and woe of the country and this is the best the Scottish Executive can come up with in legislation.

22

Anne,

08/02/2007 06:20:44

Working dogs?
So, what's the reasoning behind docking boxers, then?
It strikes me that the eugenics of the Knnel Club have a lot to answer for when you look at the suffering caused to various breeds by the KC standards.
Dachshunds -weak backs.
Bloodhounds - skin problems,.
Bulldogs- respiratory problems.
The list goes on.
Let's at least leave the poor creatures with their tails!

23

Pilrig,

Livingston 08/02/2007 06:43:56

I can understand docking for working dugs but for the rest ? - It's a stupid practice.

24

Curious,

Lilliesleaf 08/02/2007 06:51:41

Central Belt interference in rural affairs - again!

25

Media 1,

cape town 08/02/2007 06:54:47

There is no cruelty in this practice at all.

It is kind of like passing a law to prevent human circumsition.

All this animal rights nonsense is going over board. Pretty soon it will be discriminatory to feed them in a bowl on the floor, the PC lot will have them at the dining room table next.

Losers!

26

Pilrig,

Livingston 08/02/2007 07:02:48

Mad mental tail dockers rule ok

27

MS,

08/02/2007 07:11:59

What will the legal position be if a mature working dog damages its tail so severely so that it has to be amputated by a vet ? Having seen some of our Scottish legislation I bet our numptie governors haven't thought of that possibility. No doubt a vet will find himself in court ..............

As for circumcision being banned, it is essential as a remedy for at least one particular medical condition ..............................

28

ScottyEdi,

08/02/2007 07:17:17

let the poor wee things keep what they were born with. What God hath given man hath taken away.... again!

29

Grumpy,

08/02/2007 07:19:40

Who's gonna tell Lizzie Windsor (aka HM The Queen) that she can't get her corgi's tails docked any more. Where would we send her? Corton Vale?

30

Pete39,

Tassy 08/02/2007 07:26:19

Ache it is only the PC brigade who have run out of methods of inhibiting parents from bringing up their children properly. The only thing that will happen is dogs with undocked tails will finish up in the pound and folk who use working will dogs will look further afield. Did you ever feel that dogs should be given the vote?

31

Country Girl,

Scotland 08/02/2007 07:32:07

I'm sorry but for all those against it - did you not read that it is in the dogs best interest that they are docked??? Leave the country folk alone and worry about the nasty little b***ers in the city!!!

32

Beate,

Tbilisi 08/02/2007 07:43:56

'It is wee small things slicing away at us all the time' - I can't believe Mr Hogg said that in this context!

33

CaliforniaBhoy,

08/02/2007 07:44:16

Cutting any part off a sentient being is an abomination Period! End of discussion!

Media 1, nurses will tell you, ask them, that there is no scream that compares to the scream of a child being circumcised.

Nature intended that male humans have foreskins (females have the equivilent clitoral hood) and that dogs have tails.

BTW, circumcising a male child removes approximately 30% of the nerve endings of the penis.

Circumcision stems from the ancient Egyptian belief that in order to have eternal life you had to shed skin, like a snake, which the Egyptians believed lived forever, and that skin came from the most snake like part of the human body.

Jewish people held in slavery by the Egyptians picked up on the idea and suddenly that became way their all-seeing God could identify His chosen people. (never could understandnd that one-you arrive at the Pearly Gates and you have to show yer willy as evidence of eligibility for admission to an "all-seeing God"-girls must be really out of luck)

Moving into the 20th Century, do a little research on old man Kellog (the cornflakes guy) whose religious sect believed that masturbation was a sin and that a way to curb masturbation in males was to circumcise them, thus decreasing the pleasure. Nowadays, the vast majority of American males are circumcised with the mother demanding the procedure.

Which leads me into an observation: the thing American women and men from several African countries have in common is that they both want their sexual partners to be mutilated.

I am so glad that children born at the Rottenrow Maternity Hospital in Glesga weren't mutilated, otherwise I might have been.

No reason to mutilate dogs either.

34

somerferg,

australia 08/02/2007 07:46:31

Oh Hells teeth Conan get with it and give us a rest from your right wing clap trap. Your Jack Russell would tell you if he/she could that this is a barbaric practice and should be stopped immediately. On second thoughts your dog is likely just as much of a nut case as you so dont bother asking.

35

de bono,

! 08/02/2007 07:57:14

A very poor article - especially the first few paragraphs.

Leave the tails on.

Dogs wagging their tails in the bushes don't get injured. Nonsense.

36

de bono,

! 08/02/2007 07:59:33

What about sheep's tails which get cut off to prevent the accumulation of faeces and the risk of maggots?

Ban that too?

37

Toast,

scottish borders 08/02/2007 08:24:27

Lets ban wind farms from the countryside,shove them in urban areas where they don't spoil our way of life,no scenery to spoil there.

38

Labour voter,

08/02/2007 08:28:08

Talking about cruelty, did anyone see on the news last night these poor ducks being force fed to enlarge their liver to satisfy human appetites with fois gras? The conditions they were kept in was upsetting also, I had to turn away. Our yorkshire terrier has a beautiful feathery tail not like the wee short ended stumps on some of that breed, and they aren't working dogs. Cant show her though at Crufts!!!

39

Big G,

08/02/2007 08:30:59

Why is it that if you live in the "country" you automatically turn into an animal abusing phyco?

40

Helmut Tholen,

Neuschoenningstedt, Reinbek near Hamburg, Germany 08/02/2007 08:33:35

Undocked tails appear to get injured rarely only. As far as barbed wire and tails go, what about the remaining bits of the dog!? I have seen facial injuries caused by brambles - nastie, I tell you. Face masks for doggies?
I have also witnessed several adult dogs suffering from docked tails, namely:
Rottweilers, boxers, spaniels, and Schnauzers suffering from excruciating pain in the back clearly linked to nerves and tissue scarring. Those dogs, originally cuddly beasties, would not tolerate being touched and caressed any more after more ore less lengthy lives of being exceedingly amiable animals.
Boxers close to drowning while swimming because quite obviously (as opposed to labradors) there was no tail to steer and balance. (These were young and otherwise healthy animals).

41

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 08:34:18

The ancestors of Yorkies were small, fierce terriers, bred and used as rat catchers down mines. They were small enough to fit in miners' pockets and down rodent holes, yet big enough to take on the hunting of rabbits, badgers and foxes.

The breed was given its official name in 1870. Prior to that, they had been known as Broken-haired Scotch Terriers. It has been alleged that the name was changed after reporter Angus Sutherland wrote in an article for The Field, in regards to a show at Westmoreland, stating 'They ought no longer to be called Scotch Terriers, but Yorkshire Terriers for having been so improved there

It's difficult to believe that before the 1930s, the Yorkshire Terrier usually weighed around 30 lbs, rather than the three to seven pounds of today's Kennel Club Standard for the Yorkshire Terrier. However, as the popularity of the Yorkie has expanded, the breed has started to become larger again; most of today's family pet Yorkies are somewhat bigger than the Breed Standard. In large part due to their size, Yorkshire Terriers are actually classified as toy dogs rather than terriers by the Kennel Club

42

M & S loyal,

Lochwinnoch 08/02/2007 08:37:39

The NHS in chaos, prisons full to bursting, education system in meltdown and this mob in Holyrood passing laws about dogs tails being docked. When is Joke McConnell and the rest of the freeloaders going to wake up to the real problems in Scotland. Hopefully come the May elections it will be the number of Labour MSP's that will be docked. What a wonderful sight that will be Wee Joke disappearing into the political wilderness with his undocked tail stuck between his legs.

43

jeannieo,

Highlands 08/02/2007 08:42:25

My Springer has had some nasty tangles in her half-docked tail - I doubt she would have emerged from brambles and gorse if she had had the full tail - I'd have had to cut my way in to release her! It's because they can't stop that merry wagging!
I can't see the justification for docking Boxer dogs though.
At first I thought the circumcision stuff was irrelevant but of course it is also removing a small part when young which can cause real problems later.

44

Labour voter,

08/02/2007 08:42:55

#43. Thanks for that information. Bet these tough little dogs had tails when they were down the mines though!

45

Moray Stewart,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 08:43:07

In that case why don't they ban the docking of babies foreskins?

46

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 08:44:17

Bet they did! Amazing wee animals eh?

47

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 08:47:15

And ban piercings too, of all kinds. In fact, any ban any form of body mutilation, regardless of creed, colour, religion and breed!

48

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 08/02/2007 08:58:29

This is the most emotional partisan piece of 'journalism' I've read for ages - it should be in 'comment' - is that a real journalist that wrote it? It doesn't just cover the issue it's supposed to be about, it also take it as read that we all agree with the ten million wildly varying the countryside alliance stand for, including that we're unhappy about the ban on hunting with dogs.

49

Joel,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 09:00:05

Yes - and no spanking and talking sharply to them next!

50

tessterror,

08/02/2007 09:00:41

we had better stop farmers ringing lambs tails and their testicles then, oh not to mention bullocks bits oh and colts as well- all done without local or general anaesthetic.
This is just another petty rule affecting the minority. this government should deal with things that really matter.

51

conservative,

08/02/2007 09:03:16

The real meat of this story of course is that the Scottish Parliament has nothing better to do with its time than pass silly little laws such as this.

Welfare, transport, taxation, industry, all of these are simply too complicated for the lame-brained numpties that inhabit Holyrood.

52

Scaramouche,

08/02/2007 09:13:31

Ok #14 Sheena. Remember folks ...... she asked for it!

Pain flown across the ocean
Leaving just a memory
A snapshot in the family album
Breeder, what else did ya leave for me?
Breeder, whatcha leave behind for me?
All in all it was just a tail on a dog
All in all it was just docked to look like a frog

[Part 2 - Dogs;]
We don't have no tails to wag now
We don't need no flailing bone
Got a stump to sit upon
Breeder, leave our tails alone
Hey, Breeders, leave those tails alone

All in all its just another stumpy wee lump
All in all its now barely a hump!

We don't have no tails to wag now
We don't need no flailing bone
Got a stump to sit upon
Breeder, leave our tails alone
Hey, Breeders, leave those tails alone

All in all its just another stumpy wee lump
All in all its now barely a hump!

[Guitar solo]

[Part 3 - Breeders;]
Working dogs don't need their tails
So I don't need no drugs to calm them
I take the shears down from the wall
Don't think I need anything at all
Cos, I dock them without a care
All in all it was just blood on the floor
All in all the dogs soon know the score

[Goodbye Cruel Tail]
Goodbye, cruel tail
It will be gone today
Goodbye, goodbye, goodbye

Goodbye, all you people
There's nothing you can say
To make me change my mind
Goodbye

All in all its just another stumpy wee lump
All in all its now barely a hump!

All in all its just another stumpy wee lump
All in all its now barely a hump!

53

Scaramouche,

08/02/2007 09:15:27

Oops!!! forgot this .....

*apologies to Pink Floyd!!!!

54

Billy,

Germany 08/02/2007 09:20:10

Dreadfull waste of tax payers money. Scots who wish to have their dogs tail-less can simply take them over the border for the procedure. This is another case of the "Executive" failing to deal with the real issues, instead deflecting publicity onto subjects like fox hunting, tail chopping and throwing
tax payers money at one of the most corrupt countries in Africa. What a shambles.

55

BigStu,

The kennel 08/02/2007 09:26:44

As a dog trainer, I have seen Springers who have had to have their tails removed in adulthood due to damage which docking as a pup would have negated. The high velocity spatter from an injured Spaniels tail is spectacular and somewhat alarming whether town or country dweller.

56

Media 1,

cape town 08/02/2007 09:28:42

Maybe we should ban the domestication of dogs full stop..

The dog lovers are always telling us how intelligent dogs are so I am sure they will survive on their own..

If it is cruel to cut its tail off , it can one day be said that its cruel to keep them in a human household.

See how pathetic its going to get?

57

sheena,

at home 08/02/2007 09:30:45

55 Scaramouche - Thank you soooo much. It's the first time I've had a song dedicated to me - and such a romantic one too.

58

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 09:31:12

When domestic pets get the vote Media 1!

59

rosford,

Scotland 08/02/2007 09:39:31

Well done to the SE. This is a vile practice who's practitioners are no better than child abusers who, interestingly enough, also see nothing wrong with their vile practices.

60

Frugal MacDougal,

08/02/2007 09:50:05

The bloody dogs have tails for a reason, docking is a relatively recent practice dreamt up by dome numpty that probably got fed up with brushing the twigs out. It's not country versus town. It's not a 'long stsnding' tradition. Long stsnding? couple o hundred years? the dogs have been about for many thousands with tails. Pillocks.

61

warthog373,

Scotland 08/02/2007 09:51:39

Who are these people who claim to represent the countryside?...Scottish Gamekeepers and the Countryside Alliance...a tiny percentage of people actually living there...these people are still living in the 19th century...

Agree with the american hunter - why does this species [spaniel] need docked when labradors/setters/retrievers/working collies not?..Dont they routinely get sent into gorse/whin/bramble/thickets?....its just more nonsense in the name of tradition..

Whats really happening here is that the town understands the countryside far better than it ever used to ....more and faster connections/TV/education/spare time....and the majority in this land as a whole are not going to put up with the arcane and often cruel practices still going on out there.

NFUS are right...there are much bigger issues to be dealt with...and the hunting, shooting, fishing lobby are hijacking the debate for their own narrow and selfish ends.

62

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 10:00:02

#11 - Kittitas County - great post!

#41 Big G - it seems that if you live in the country then you also automatically assume that people who live in towns or cities don't have a clue about anything.

63

Mar,

In the country! 08/02/2007 10:03:48

I've had 2 working dogs at the vets recently having a tail removed and one half removed due to injury at work.......talk about distress. I've seen pups having tails docked all my life done properly they don't even wake up!!!!!! I agree not for fashion but it is a must for most working dogs.

Funny that no one moans about lambs getting their wee tails done with rings etc...oh yes thats cos as consumers we eat them! Keeping dogs locked in a flat all day in town is cruel...think i mite start a crusade.

Spend billions on a stupid looking parliment and all they can do is bang on about fox hunting and dogs tails PATHETIC as if there are not more important things to discuss in our country. IDIOTS

So your gonna chuck us in your already overcrowded jails...never mind the real crims roaming your lovely city!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hurmph all i can say is f off you tree huggers! Sorry but it makes me mad

64

AJ,

Fife 08/02/2007 10:13:35

Scaramouche, you really are the No1 wag!!!

Pun intended!!

65

Elidor,

08/02/2007 10:13:50

I will never again sign a petition in support of the Liverpool Dockers. I have been misled and lied to.

66

LM,

Scotland 08/02/2007 10:15:47

It's no more than an aristocratic whim, fashionable among the hierarchy,
IT IS CRUELTY,

67

HennyP,

08/02/2007 10:16:01

agree with Country girl #29 - it's being done for a reason!
And #64 - we are here & we do support SCA & SGA and all the hard work they do to preserve a way of life that is being chipped away by muppets at the SE who seem to have lost all concept of what goes on outside their ever shrinking green belt around Edinburgh!!!

Mar #66 - well done you! was trying to compose my words into something similar, but you've done if for me!

68

Robin,

08/02/2007 10:22:09

so,
the veterinary profession is against tail docking, but seem all in favour of castration.
I get pestered to have my dog castrated every visit I make to the vet, and I will not have it under any circumstances, - I did it once before with another dog and was the biggest mistake I made.
Double standards to my mind, especially as castration is not usually done when a puppy is new born.

Just shows what a pathetic bunch we have in the 'Executive' when tail docking has become a major issue.

69

Claudia,

Biggar 08/02/2007 10:23:51

A Dogs Tail is a part of the Dogs Body! As a part of the body there are bones, Nerves, Skin, Fur and blood in it! You do not need to be a Vet or a Doctor to know abaout the pain after an amputation. If we ask somebody with amputated bodyparts, they will tell us that this part of the body hurts even 10-20 or 30 years after the amputation happened. Just because Dogs can't talk like humens, does not mean they have no pain. I must say, as long as humens beat horses up to "break" them in and as long as the same people tell a dogs tail has to come off, as long they can call themselfs cruel.Just a Question: Would one of the Dog Tail aputaters cut of his/her owns childs winky just because it is said the winky does hurt when it breaks? Right! I will be voting for peoples tongues cutting off for telling a lot of crab then, as their crab does hurt me and a lot of others. Just for prevention from now on tongues get cut out and we make that legal. We also should think about cutting off Hands of people who stole. That is only a prevention for their own safety.
I think, we should leave the dogs tail where it is belong. Dogs are born with a tail and they should live with it!

70

AVRENIM,

France 08/02/2007 10:27:11

How about banning all ritual slaughter of animals which entails them bleeding to death, that would seem to me a challenging project for Animal Rights Campaigners.
Oh aye, and body piercing...

71

,

08/02/2007 10:32:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 352529, Article id was mapped to record!
72

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 10:32:46

You mean Halal?

73

td,

Highlands 08/02/2007 10:37:32

The purpose of an elected government is to place sufficient authority in one place to ensure that the greater good of society is safeguarded and directed.

Today we have elected a group of meddlesome people who are intent on creating their own version of the " Brave New World".

What exactly the length of any dog's tail has to do with the greater good of society is a mystery. It is quite certain that there were much more pressing issues that should have been occupying the waking hours of those elected to high office in this land.

Trouble really is that we appear to insist that our elected representatives must hold an opinion, which we agree with, about everything. No one can possibly understand the intricacies of so many diverse matters. But if those standing for office do not give us the right answers to our obscure questions then we do not elect them. The result is we elect those who have the " gift of the Gab "

Then we deplore the rantings of an Elected chamber full of overtaxed brains with little time( or interest...or even intellect ; -) ) to look into any issue properly...small committees of these people then commission so called " experts" to write reports for them, which most elected members do not have time to read. Instead the whips office summarise the issue reviewed by the report into some politically inspired 'precis', and we get bad ill-considered laws, affecting marginal issues that really were better left to those who have some understanding.

We get the government we vote for..and have a chance to do it all over again in May...

Can we , collectively, make a better selection of those standing for office this time...I wonder ....

74

Gamekeeper,

N. Yorkshire 08/02/2007 10:40:34

I suppose they will next ban circumcision because it is mutilation of the male human being, and just for WeeBerty EH?EH?EH?EH?EH?EH? Just shows the mental acumen of some objectors!

75

warthog373,

Scotland 08/02/2007 10:46:28

Sorry Willie [75] I still can see almost no difference between the feathery tail of a retriever and that of a spaniel...certainly not enough to make any difference re snagging. Re sheepdog collies...I deliberately mentioned gorse and whin because these dogs do occasionally have to go into cover in rough hill areas to winkle out wily old sheep..

many gundog spaniels similarly will seldom be in tangled cover, depending on where the shoot is...

still just looks like tradition/fashion to me...

76

Finlay,

Currie 08/02/2007 10:53:00

I'm beginning to wonder if we should keep this Holyrood farce going. Let's vote this bunch out in May and see if we can elect a group a wee bit more in tune with the electorate.
Part of the problem with the current setup is that MSPs, in particular Regional MSPs, have very little to do all day so they feel obliged to find something that they might know something about to legislate against. Never anything postive mind you, that would take some thought and from personal experience of these folks very few have the mental capacity for that kind of exercise.

77

boybilly,

Portessie 08/02/2007 10:53:17

It warms my heart that the SE continues to struggle with serious issues!!!! What about the economy, stupid? Maybe we can apply for charity status for providing employment for our MSPs (Mostly Stupid People). They need to grow up and get real. How many have actually worked in the real world? What are they doing to encourage the added value for sustained growth? What will be the next big debate - maybe "Will flatulating within the Scottish Parliament building reduce the heating bill and therefore impact on greenhouse gas emissions"? We have people who cannot afford to eat and be warm. When are Scots going to wake up and smell the coffee and get rid of this bunch of numpties?

78

warden99,

midlothian 08/02/2007 11:02:53

d<a href="http://photobucket.com/"; target="_blank"><img src="http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/1967cookjohn/DSCF016...; border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>o you think he looks hard done by??

79

AVRENIM,

France 08/02/2007 11:03:05

#78
Any ritual killing - voodoo uses the same violent trauma to the throat as in many other ritual killings..

80

Claudia,

Biggar 08/02/2007 11:05:15

# 79
Do I understand you right if I say you are looking for an excuse there?Right, just let me explane you something!

A Dog is a very close relative of a Wolf! I have seen many of them in zoos and also in the wild, and I never ever met a wolfe with a cut of Tail. It is a fact, taht wolves and Dogs do communicate with that part of the body, and it is also a fact, the nature creates an animal the right way. (Please don't bother about mutations as this are just a mood of nature and mostly infected by humen influence)
If there were a reason for a "non Tail Dog" nature would have created one. I can not see a reason and the excuses some people have got are just excuses from the sight of humens. I agree about the problems you probably get iif you leave the dogs tail where it is, but are thos Problems not created by humens? I had Dogs all my life. Not one of my dogs had a broken Tail or anything like the problems you discribed. (I have to say, non of my dogs was even half as overweight as most of the dogs are, as my dogs could be dogs and had a life as dogs! Most of the Dogs are a special Breed of a tailwagging bin.)
I trained Dogs for the Police in Germany, and you can be sure I know what I am talking about.
Be honest, is it really the dogs wellbeing you are after or is it some kind of style, easy going (as you don't need to sit for hours and brush the mess out of the fur?) or is it something else?
I like dogs and I could never hurt one of them. If you would like dogs you would think twice about what you are doing.

81

ex ex-pat,

edinburgh 08/02/2007 11:11:35

Pups DO SUFFER PAIN when their tails are docked. No argument.
Another evil practice which I hope is covered by this legislation is DECLAWING OF CATS. I believe it is already illegal, but there remain a few vets who pander to those stupid morons who want to keep cats in flats, but don't want their furniture ruined!!! These vets should be heavily fined (and I mean HEAVILY - vets make a fortune) and if caught a second time, struck off.

82

rosford,

Scotland 08/02/2007 11:12:26

Willie, comparing to wife beaters was really being too kind. Once the tail is removed it doesn't grow back (field observation). The deliberate mutilation of an animal for purely cosmetic purposes is unforgivable.
At least a wife can get shot of the bullying control freak of a husband.

83

rosford,

Scotland 08/02/2007 11:15:13

Willie, perhaps you would like to dock my fingers to enable you to control my remarks which you find offensive. You can also report these remarks as offensive simply by pressing the "report as unsuitable" button.

84

Stewarty,

08/02/2007 11:16:02

de bono #34 - good point re sheeps' tails.

And what about piglets tails which are currently docked within hours of birth to stop them chewing each other?

The Scottish Executive should have left well alone - there are many more important things to worry about at Holyrood than this nonsense.

What about telling Westminster to go and jump in the Thames re the proposal to transfer oil between vessels in the Firth of Forth? Is that not more important than tail docking legislation? Instead we see these inept imbeciles wringing their hands and saying there is nothing we can do etc etc.

This enhances the case to oust Labour on 3 May. I hope SNP MSP's voted against the ban yesterday?

85

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 11:17:38

http://www.assistancedogsofthewest.org/resources/training...

There is a suggestion on the above site that some dogs have no tails naturally. Why not? There are wild cats without tails.

86

Bill, Dunblane,

08/02/2007 11:17:55

77 - Rosford - post well punctuated, or it could have caused you a bit of grief. ;)

What a difference a comma makes!

87

McMicrogal,

08/02/2007 11:27:24

Docking the tail is in fact removing a section of the dog's spine. I have an undocked Cocker who charges about like a mad thing with no danger to herself through having a tail. Perhaps we should be questioning the sanity of those who send their animals into places where they are in danger from the environment - surely it it cruel to send an animal somewhere that you fear they could harm themselves, and that a better solution would be not to send them into places of danger rather than lop their tails off so you can send them into dangerous places?

As for the excuse that you cannot trim the feathers on a Cocker's tail - what codswallop! In any case the feathers on the lovely full tail tend to curl around the tail, especially when wet, and do not form the same flag as those seen in retrievers.

This smacks of a load of stuck in their ways people determined not to change regardless of any evidence presented to them.

88

Courtney,

Eas Molesey 08/02/2007 11:32:08

Once again the Executive and Parliament is bothering the police with trivia to the extent that real crime and real criminals get an even longer leash.

89

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 11:32:57

Nature removed our tails over the years. We have a reminder of it though but no longer need it. Many other primates have tails and have not depending on what environment and geography they live in.

Nature doesn't always get it right.

90

rosford,

Scotland 08/02/2007 11:35:00

Bill, thanks. It's interesting how people change their views according to what is socially acceptable or "cool" at the time. It's not that long ago that drink driving was seen as "cool" - now of course it's totally unacceptable and recognised as such. Child abusers, wife beaters etc have similarly seen their behaviour go from quietly accepted to unlawful.
Mutilation of dogs for cosmetic purposes will end up the same way. Parralels can be drawn.

91

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 11:37:08

Also, considering we have bred dogs for centuries for our own end devices and have radically changed them from what is natural and given that they are now, themselves unnatural because of us, we have a duty of care in that case.

However, you can interperate what "duty of care" yourselves as to what it actually means.

92

Media 1,

cape town 08/02/2007 11:39:19

Does anyone REALLY care about this story?

Its a dogs tail not a childs arm, although you sometimes wonder what would be viewed as the more disturbing these days..

There is nothing wrong with loving a dog, but just remember its a dog...A beast who will lick anyone who feeds it. The loyalty goes as far as food, patting and comfort...

93

Vigilant Watcher,

Bo'ness 08/02/2007 11:40:42

#1 is correct. Peacocks have very large tails even when it could pose a danger in terms of predation and wild dogs have tails. It's an evolutionary stable strategy determined over thousands of years of development.

The variety & breeds of dog we see are all decendants of the wolf. They are a product of human intervention and selective breeding for the sole purpose, satifaction and usefulness to the breeder.

It is argued that docked tails are necessary for hunting/working dogs as otherwise they could suffer breaks, pain and disease so it is in their interests to have their tails docked.

Who's interest was that again? Wolves are very effective hunters and live and hunt in similar environments that some working and docked dogs do but they still have tails. Doesn't seem to have done them too much harm in evolutionary terms.

Given the time wolves have been on the planet and surviving sucessfully with tails I think I'll stick with evolution on this one.

94

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 11:45:44

We evolved dogs.

95

Branda,

Arizona 08/02/2007 11:52:09

> “Alex Hogg…said *exuberant* working dogs, such as spaniels, almost never stopped wagging their tails. This put them at risk of injury in dense cover or small spaces.”

This is true. I’ve seen the damage that can occur. It’s not pretty. I don’t know anything about spaniels, but I have seen the damage that setters can do to themselves. Since setters have their lovely tail feathering, breeders do not dock them because it would look odd.

Worst case I witnessed was a Gordon Setter. He was fresh in from the morning’s quail hunt. His tail looked as though it had been beaten to a bloody pulp. The dog appeared happy and in no pain, but his wagging tail was a mess—looked like he had run it through a meat grinder.

I’ve noticed some dogs *seem* to do fine while others do not. If the pups come from a working/hunting line, it’s really best to have the docking. I’m not a breeder, but I think it is 3 days after birth. If you wait until adulthood the surgery and healing is much more involved, painful and complicated—more costly too.

Until I saw the setter with his severely damaged tail, I too was not convinced that some of the hunting breeds required tail docking. I assumed it was arrogance and vanity on the part of the breeders for show purposes.

You need to understand that these dogs are so focused on their work, that they don’t realize they are injuring themselves out in the field. There is a lot of adrenaline pumping through that animal; a self-mangled tail won’t slow it down.

> “Scottish Executive…a ban on the docking of dogs' tails, complete with the threat of a £5,000 fine and six months in jail for anyone found guilty of the offence.”

Frightening. Sounds somewhat dictatorial, doesn’t it?

> “Although vets have officially given their backing to the ban…”

All of the vets in Scotland? I don’t believe it. I suspect if they wanted, they could find some vets who would agree to the benefits of docking

96

Branda,

Arizona 08/02/2007 11:52:59

#21 Pilrig, Livingston
“…understand docking for working dogs…the rest? - It's a stupid practice.

I concur.

Branda

97

Vigilant Watcher,

Bo'ness 08/02/2007 11:55:48

Media1 seems to be advocating a 'cartesian' philosophy in his argument of the equivalence of a child's arm and a dog's tail.

The Cartesian view, probably rightly, does not imbue non-human animals with a soul so by his arguement do not feel pain. In other words, as far as animals go then 'anything goes'!

It resulted then in the nailing of dogs by their paws to wooden planks so they could be dissected live to understand the process of blood circulation.

Peoples actions and behaviour is tempered by their beliefs and a belief that reduces animals to worthless organisms only for the use and/or abuse of humans is not a belief system that I find either rational or practical.

As an atheist and evolutionist I find the Cartesian view of the animal world to be both wrong and lacking in intellectual rigour.

Funny how there are still groups/organisation throughout the world that based on their own misguided belief/faith systems continue to disregard the original comparison and abuse both children and large portions of their own beleivers.

98

Stefanie,

08/02/2007 11:56:59

I love MY dog's tail. Wouldn't be without it. Met a boxer with one, one day- thought he looked very fine.

:-)

Personally I have no issue with the cruelty (we are inherently cruel to other species so where is the difference here) angle but I fail to see docking a tail as a "must". I live in the Scottish countryside in HUNT country and erm- the dogs I see used WITH tails are quite fine thanking you kindly.

Tails on dogs are like tails on cats, peacocks (as mentioned) and other tailed species. Anyone want to have a go removing a lions tail? *grin*

We lost ours in evolution... Perhaps we are wanting to drag another species down with us because we have "tail envy"?

I like the point about wolves having perfectly healthy and workable tails. Does rather put the argument to bed, in my mind.

Besides- and I have NOT read all 101 comments- anyone else here rather not see the spincter of a dog? I am pleased my dog covers hers! And I have problems with the sealyham friend of hers who does not... LOL!

Sorry. Potty talk. But it is my greatest pet (pun intended) peeve.

LOVED the song too! Thanks for a laugh.

99

Branda,

Arizona 08/02/2007 12:18:33

#42 Helmut Tholen, Germany
> “Rottweilers, boxers, spaniels, and Schnauzers suffering from excruciating pain in the back clearly linked to nerves and tissue scarring.”

My dog breeder (I am owned by Weimaraners and a Vizsla) tells me that you really *must* shop around for a knowledgeable vet. Many of them *do not* dock tails properly. This breeder docks her own litters, and I have never seen any problems with her dogs. She has authored a book detailing the process for future breeders to educate their vets.

I have seen some very poorly docked tails. Perhaps this is why the vets are agreeing with the ban? They don’t know what they’re doing. Surely the vets have some responsibility in learning how to do the job properly? I’ve noticed that they also mess up ears.

I only hang out with the upland hunting breeds (Weims, Viszlas, German Shorthairs, English Pointers, Setters, etc.), but if I'm not mistaken, are not some Rotties *born without* a tail or a very short stub? Not all breeds have tails.

As for Dobies, I personally don’t understand the reason for docking the tails and cropping the ears. I like them better with their long ears and tails. It may be that the breed club’s standard requires it for showing? Which brings me back to the vanity issue.

It could be that Dobies have more problems because they take off almost all of the tail—up to the 2nd joint I think. Which leaves very little remaining—a stump. But it differs among breeds. For example German Shorthair Pointers (GSP) leave two-fifths, Vizsla leave two-thirds, and Weimaraner leave three-fifths.

I believe the more tail left, the better. I've never seen any problems with Vizslas or GSPs either.

Branda

100

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 12:32:43

#88 Claudia got it spot on - if a tail is any detriment at all to a wild dog or wolf, then natural selection would have removed them entirely a long time ago. The fact that it didn't suggests that to a wild dog - who would be hunting in all sorts of environments and circumstances - harms his tail rarely enough for it to be a factor in evolution. I don't think the animal WELFARE groups - like Scottish SPCA and RSPCA - (NOT animal rights) and the BVA would be against tail docking were it to be in the best interests of the welfare of the animal. The fact that these types of organisations (hardly rabid 'animal rights' tree huggers) take the stance they do has to be the main reason it has been accepted as right and proper to outlaw it by the Executive.

101

Nimrodel1353,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 12:35:22

Haven't read all the posts, but the boy from the Gamekeepers Association seems to suggest that they dock the tails so that they don't get caught in fences, bushes, etc.

I would have thought that a tail pointing straight out behind the dog would be less likely to get caught in a bush than the dog's ears would (Spaniels, etc, have big lugs), yet they don't dock the ears! is this because they like the look of docked tails, but not cut off ears?

102

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 12:39:17

Willie - #109 - the difference is that un-neutered animals DO lead to significant deleterious impacts on animal welfare, through a huge amount of strays. Also, as I and others have pointed out - nearly all wild dogs and many other hunting animals have tails. If it was SO dangerous to them (or even slightly dangerous), then selection pressure would have removed it long ago.
But then as an 'armchair expert' with only an honours Zoology degree in animal behaviour and evolutionary biology and 20 years working in the countryside and for animal welfare, I'm not really qualified to comment, am I?

103

sergiesmax,

08/02/2007 12:39:58

For those of you who dont understand this practice in working dogs,should just shut up.Go learn about working dogs what they do and the reasons why it is done.I am sick of hearing people who dont have any knowledge on rural life. and the lifes of working Dogs,pass judgement without any real knowledge.

104

Florence,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 12:39:59

I'd like to know what are the views of the veterinary world and S.S.P.C.A?

105

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 12:43:54

#114 - Yeah you tell 'em! Shut up BVA, shut up Scottish SPCA - what do you vets and animal organisations know about dogs anyway?!

106

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 12:46:52

Vets - BVA - http://www.bva.co.uk/policy/issues/docking.asp

SSPCA - http://www.scottishspca.org/SingleNews.aspx?NewsId=102

Both against - but as I said, what on earth do vets and animal welfare groups know about dogs? ;->

107

RAVIS,

the borders 08/02/2007 12:48:44

55 SCARAMOUCHE:

a work of art mate!

108

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 12:53:10

Dunno if you are or are not qualified to say anything Flash but you, and many others here, keep making the mistake of relating domesticated pet/working dogs with wild dogs.

Man evolved modern dogs. We bred them away from what is natural to suit ourselves. We are responsible for how they look and behave nowadays and they are far far removed from thier wild beginings and therefore no comparison can be made.

109

bluepict,

union falls 08/02/2007 13:06:41

I have several Rottweilers and every one has a docked tail and is as happy as a pig in mud thank you very much!

However I am not opposed to Rotties or any dog with/without a tail.

It doesn't matter to me one way or another.

110

Erse,

Manor House 08/02/2007 13:16:42

They jus' don' unerstaaand the wayz of the countryyyy. Ger'orf moi laaand!

111

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 08/02/2007 13:22:55

Don't know about this. In this area of the country dogs, hunting and pets, are very popular. I have a beagle, my stepdaughter breeds springer spanards and my son has a black lab. No tails are docked. Hovever I will admit that I have seen boxers with their tails docked but all of them were pets and or show dogs.

I really think that this earth shaking crises should be referred to the UN. The could pass some resolutions about this situation.

112

Mostus Beastus,

Wenona, USA 08/02/2007 13:23:50

My hunting friends have spaniels with the long feather tails. The shears come out right before hunting season, and the fur is cut down to about one-half inch (protect from sunburn). The tails are long and beautiful after overwinter.

113

AD,

08/02/2007 13:24:27

We have a working breed dog who has a docked tail which was removed when she was 4 days old. She's big and clumsy and happy as pie. A couple of her relatives aren't so happy - they have tails and are constantly getting injured, getting them stuck in doors, etc.

We didn't like the thought of having a dog without a tail and probably wouldn't go for another one because we miss the "thud thud thud" on the floor as they're lying looking at you - but there are instances where it is called for.

114

sheena,

AT HOME 08/02/2007 13:30:53

Seems to me there is a simple solution for the working dog. They should wear protective clothing when at work. Someone could devise a tail net or perhaps a small condom would do the job. When they are 'at home' they can flaunt their lovely long tails to their hearts content.

115

GLW,

Tbilisi & Falkirk 08/02/2007 13:32:06

Another example of the devil finding work for idle hands.

Ban it, tax it………….. There again it's easier than innovation.

116

Gusto,

08/02/2007 13:32:58

34. What about sheep's tails which get cut off to prevent the accumulation of faeces and the risk of maggots?
Yes, stop it for them too - it was scientifically proved in 2006 in Europe that sheep have a better chance of maggots if their tail IS cut off. Just give them better grazing and no overdose of pellets.

117

rosford,

Scotland 08/02/2007 13:39:57

What a pathetic read in defense of docking. The analogy to child abuse is most appropriate. Whilst the regular beating of Jimmy is innapropriate, the beating little Jonny receives on a regular basis is ok because of xyx? Child beating is never ok as is the mutilation of docking a dogs tail.
You lot really are trying to defend the indefensible - what a sad bunch you are.

118

WI in GA,

08/02/2007 13:41:57

I've never had appendicitis or tonsillitis nor have any of my friends but what if dogs ruled the world and thought that we should have these removed to "prevent risk of infection because they're not needed anyways". Doctors have said they're useless appendages anyway. I think you would be PRETTY upset no? Just because you can't understand what a dog says doesn't mean that it doesn't feel pain or doesn't like its tail not being there.

I don't agree with vanity animal tampering...tail docking, ear cropping and all that. Know how some children are born with extra fingers nex to their pinkies? Would you lop those off too when they were babies because they MIGHT get broken off or injured one day or because it didn't LOOK right?

119

sandman,

taipei 08/02/2007 13:43:49

My auld yin has had several working springers over the last 30 years or so. None docked. None with tail injuries. He's a countryman. Doesn't see the point in docking. Just like I don't see the point in tarting oped pieces as "news."

Anyway, surely if injury protection is what's sought, amputating all four legs would be the way to go. Then you could just keep the dog in a net bag slung over your shoulder.

120

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 13:47:02

Actually Gusto, for ewes, the tail docking increases the chances of getting pregnant (particularly useful when you cannot assist every "mounting") and in this country, given the wet weather compared to many another EU continental countries, the docking does reduce maggot infestation rates. We also "crotch" them as well which is when the wool is clipped extremely short on the tail, base of tail and elsewhere around the crotch region. This reduces fly strike significantly, to the point whereby farmers/crofters can reduce the amount of pesticides used on the sheep and actual number of dippings and dosings too.

Have you a link to back up your assertion?

121

Warbucks,

Auld Reekie 08/02/2007 13:58:18

I am fed up with the so called countryside set telling us what is in an animal's best interest. Especially when animals to many of them are merely creatures which they can exploit for their own cruel pleasures or financial gain.

The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, The British Veterinary Association and the British Small Animals Veterinary Association are all in favour of a ban on tail docking as they view it as unnecessary mutilation.

The above mentioned professionals have the animal's welfare at heart as opposed to the bleeting countryside set, who are motivated by the money they can make from breeding dogs by "modifying" them to fit the unnatural fashion driven criteria of the Kennel Club.

Look at Crufts these days the dogs on display are being turned into freaks!!!

Docking tails is cruel and unnatural and could someone tell Louise Gray that journalists are meant to be impartial!

122

Branda,

Arizona 08/02/2007 13:58:36

Regarding "BVA”

Associations may speak on behalf of their veterinary membership, but members do not always agree with their association leaders. I remember when our AVMA and AAHA changed the vaccination protocols a few years back. I felt it was necessary because dogs were getting sick from over-vaccination. But many of the vets basically said, screw this! I'll continue doing what I'm doing, and nobody is going to tell me how to run my medical practice! My vet was one of the dissenters.

Therefore, I vaccinate my own dogs because my vet still refuses to follow the newer protocols, which reasonably reduces the number of vaccines and the frequency given.

Associations are just as fallible and subject to outside influences and social pressures as anyone else. Would it not be a more balanced debate to hear from veterinary scientists who have an opposing argument? Or are we no longer interested in opposing viewpoints? I would like to hear two sides to this argument. Wouldn't you? There seems to be only one side.

And the SPCA is an *animal rights* advocate, correct? I respect and admire their concern and love for all animals, but are they objective? They no doubt also see the use of working dogs as exploitative or some form of cruelty or animal slavery—if not now perhaps at a later date?

One slippery legislative slope at a time…always banning something.

Example of association vs membership:

Vaccine debate leaves profession in dilemma AVMA, AAHA positions attempt to ease contention
www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/content/printContentPopup.jsp...

Branda

123

Helmut Tholen,

Neuschoenningstedt, Reinbek near Hamburg, Germany 08/02/2007 13:58:57

#108,Branda,Arizona:
Well, at least I have now read reasonable postings about tails really getting injured, so I admit that sometimes (considering the actual number of non-working dogs: very rarely) docking might be an option in working lines (rather than companion or show lines) of certain breeds. I also admit that Springer Spaniels and the like indeed can bee rather enthusiastic.
Still I would not let my dog work near barbed wire without assisting him or calling him off and moving him into a safe position - most likely getting scratched myself in the process. Over the years I have had to remove quite a few bramble thorns out of eyelids etc.

124

Robin,

08/02/2007 14:09:33

Let's get the facts right here.
Tail docking of certain breeds WAS fashionable about 40 years ago, although a gamekeeper would tell you it was necessary to assist with protection of the rear end against snagging with bushes etc.
Spaniels were the most common to be done.
Mind you I have never ever seen a retriever with a docked tail.
My own dog, Irish Setter has long 'feathers' on tail and all 4 legs and chest.
I have also never seen nor heard of any docking in this breed.
In my opinion the real point of docking should be left to the individual owner, and if done properly and at a young enough age, the dog will have no recollection.
Also why castrate any dog.
My vet keeps telling me to have it done.
No way, I listened once before, and my Red Setter (another one) was never the same dog again.
Nowadays it has become NOT fashinable

125

AD,

08/02/2007 14:16:48

Being ignorant must be bliss rosford

126

Muttley,

rambling in the hills 08/02/2007 14:23:16

For pity sake get things in perspective here.

Docking done properly by a vet is not analogous to child abuse. It's not even analogous to dog abuse. It's in the best interests of a working dog to have it done and as a dog welfare activist owner of a very happy, beautiful, contented and very much loved spaniel I don't have an issue with her tail being in the bin.

There are a lot of problems in Scotland. There are a lot of animal welfare issues that need attention - but this is not one of them. Our parliamentarians in Scotland need to start listening to what is truly required of them and fighting the fight where needed instead of legislating on sensationalist, attention grabbing drivel.

127

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 14:25:10

Ach Rosford has his opinion to which he is entitled AD! Sometimes he hit's it right on the head for everybody, sometimes not.

Mind you, not quite getting the anology between child abuse and tail docking. My wife has had kittens before and she has nice puppies (ooer!) but neither of us has fathered/mothered a dog before and we regard human life more precious than animal life. Don't get me wrong, I look after my animals to the utmost and I'm still out to the jury on tail docking..........

128

Muttley,

rambling in the hills 08/02/2007 14:32:36

Robin# 138, castration CAN be done for humane reasons. I once owned an untrainable dog who was in danger of being regarded as incapable of living in a house as he urinated everywhere and ran off in search of a bitch at every God-given opportunity. He'd mount anything and everything, he was antisocial, embarassing, dirty and unhygenic (he stank and the house was startign to stink with him) and he was a danger to himself.

His last chance was castration, which was done with great reluctance on my part, but it caused little or no problem and within 24 hours the dog was fine and the whole thing was a massive success - he lived for another 12 years and he was a very, very happy and much loved house pet. Without that opperation he'd have been put down as noone could have kept him.


You may be lucky with your dog and if he and you are happy then fair enough, but don't judge others without knowing the facts and circumstances.

129

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 08/02/2007 14:40:07

All male blind dogs are castrated. My sis-in-law who is registered blind and has got a dog from the blind charity.

£35k to train this dog and it's beautiful, highly intelligent, highly trained but ball-less for very good reasons!

130

TJD4Scot,

Mobile, Alabama USA 08/02/2007 14:42:51

To #1 WeeBerty, If man was meant to fly, he would have been born with wings. Welcome to the 21st centry.

131

rosford,

Scotland 08/02/2007 14:50:06

Dave, thanks for that. God gave dogs tails for a reason, just like he gave the idiots here defending docking a twisted sense of right and wrong. Sometimes we do have to legislate for what should be a no brainer - even if it does cost money.

132

Swilly Tisher,

Loch Maree 08/02/2007 14:58:26

Cut it out , it doesn't do them any harm !

133

rosford,

Scotland 08/02/2007 15:03:30

If you want a dog without balls my advice would be to buy a bitch. I'm sure if you had your balls removed you would also live to a ripe old age.
Why don't you? Perhaps because you have a choice?

134

Scouller,

Scots descent, on a farm in Iowa, USA 08/02/2007 15:13:05

We are starting to have the same problems here. The "city" folks and bleeding heart "animal welfare" nuts that are too far away from Grandma's and Grandpa's farm to know real rural life. What we do, we do for a reason. Be it docking working dogs, lambs, and pigs tails, to butchering are our own meat. They are clueless..... They camp out on the politicians door steps making all kinds of noise. So to get votes, they turn "Chamberlin" and appease the wackos.
And we, the working rural folk lose more and more. In the US, real farmers are less then 2 percent of our population. I'm starting to develop a bunker view of things. May God Bless and protect those that work the land and may the land of my forefathers be a strong proud country again!

135

himthatknows,

Right Behind You! 08/02/2007 15:24:02

To WeeBerty! Are you clueless? Eh? Do you have a dog? Eh? If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when he jumps! Eh? You are proof positive that God has a sense of humour! Eh? Go sing kumbaya around a camp fire and leave the serious talk to serious people!

136

himthatknows,

Right Behind You! 08/02/2007 15:32:12

One other thing... it won't be long before the "working dogs" have no work because of the the animal rights activists. Can the ban of bird hunting be far behind?

137

,

08/02/2007 15:41:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 353695, Article id was mapped to record!
138

Brew Master,

08/02/2007 16:03:01

I've yet to see an animal that was permanently harmed, either emotionally or physically, by docking their tails. I think docking is the owner's right and not for the government to regulate. I'm not advocating cruelty just common sense. If you want to talk about real animal cruelty look to the greyhound races. Leave people and their companions alone.l

139

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 16:10:21

Hi Dave - re #120 - Yesa, obviously dogs have been artificially bred from wolves and wild dogs, and have modified (although not totally disimilar) behaviour.
The point I was making however, is still valid - IF having a tail was bad for a wolf or wild dog that had to hunt for its food - on the plains, in undergrowth, in forest, wherever - then those wild ancestors who had tails would suffer a disadvantage compared to those who had shorter tails. Eventually, we would have seen tails dissapear completely. The fact that they haven't says to me that injuries to tails in wolves and wild dogs who do things similar to working dogs are rare enough NOT to be a factor in evolution. And, believe me, evolution can work on pretty minor faults and advantages!
Also Branda - #136 - The VAST MAJORITY of vets don not believe in tail docking, and the BVA and other UK vet associations just reflect their members beliefs. Also, the Scottish SPCA is NOT an animal rights groups.... it's an animal welfare group... big difference... e.g. NOT vege, NOT against 'pest control', actually HELPS animals directly, NOT campaigning against sports shooting of birds....

140

Robin,

08/02/2007 16:19:03

143,
I am not making any judgments.
As I said my vet pesters me to have my Setter castrated, and as I also said I had a very bad experience with castration a few years ago.
I also agree that sometimes castration can be the answer to a problem animal, but my Setter is still only 2 years old and the vet has been after him for 18 months.
All I advocate is that the choice should be with owner, not the 'Executive'.

141

Julia,

Auburn 08/02/2007 16:19:59

Lordy, this is THe FIRST TIME I've ever been glad I'm not in Scotland---what would my wire fox terrier be without his docked tail??? UGH!! the thought!! Of course, we still hunt with dogs here too---soooo???
Is this for real?? I'm just shaking my head and scowling----What is the reasoning behind this--I cut his nails and hair and even give him meds when he's sick, I'm certainly not mistreating him, and sorry but a big long tail in the "woods" would have burrs and yuk all over- I just don't understand!

142

Walt Nicholes,

Utah, USA 08/02/2007 16:25:06

#31 California boy: Circumcision started with Abraham and all the males of his family, including servants. Israel was over a hundred years from going into Egypt.

The larger issue here is to what degree the government chooses to regulate individual lives. Tail docking may not be the most serious government restriction in history, but it is indicative of a government which believes it has not only the right, but the mandate, to declare how individual people should lead their lives.

This should be less about tail docking and more about government intrusion.

143

Florence,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 16:30:07

127 - re your first paragraph - oh pleeeeeease!

144

Florence,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 16:41:39

Re 150 - My God, I'd hate to be one of your dogs.
You must have been very unfortunate not to have encountered any intelligent dogs or perhaps you ain't smart enough to recognise their intelligence?

145

Bobbiedazzler,

Scotland 08/02/2007 16:43:47

I brought one of my adult Jack Russel Terriers to the vets with a damaged dew claw; the vet, with no apology or warning immediately yanked it off there and then without anesthetic or anything. I was shocked. The dog gave a blood-curdling yowl but then to my amazement, it the wagged its stumpy tail and promptly licked the face of the vet as if he had been a life-saver! The dog didn't even seem to lick his wound. Wonders!!!

146

Joanna,

Cambs, England 08/02/2007 16:52:15

I think this is a good move by the SE .... hope it rolls over soon into England.

The fact that the RSPCA, the SSPCA and most vets are opposed tells it own story.

Boxers, Dobermanns and Rottweilers are docked to make the dog look more aggressive and because it is written into the breed standard. Boxers, Dobermanns and Great Danes also have their ears docked in the US for the same reason. That, used to be allowed here, at one time, but has thankfully been relegated to the annals of history ..... tail docking should go the same way.

My grandfather and uncle were sheep farmers in the Scottish Borders and they used working collies.... those dogs had to go into all kinds of gorse, heather and bracken in search of wayward sheep .... they did not have docked tails and as far as I know there were no problems with injuries to their tails.

Dogs have their tails docked because some people think it is more aesthetic and the breed standard demands it.

Change the breed standard.

147

td,

Highlands 08/02/2007 16:59:12

157~

I tried to turn this discussion this morning in the direction you are suggesting (post #81 was the one.)

There are many things that are really cruel that we see dogs putting up with and surviving everyday.

We see the strays on the streets in the weeks after Xmas. We see dogs which are unrestrained in private cars. We know about large dogs being kept in high rise buildings and small flats, where the owner leaves them incarcerated for many hours each day. We know about dogs that have been so selectively bred that they cannot survive without constant " maintenance" by their owners . Some now have eye problems, breathing problems and ( as mentioned above with some breeds) Hip problems. Then there are the ones that are overfed...was that a 12 stone labrador on the news the other day. ?


People do all sorts of things to and with their dogs. It is very illjudged for any governement legislator to start with one rather visible kindness to certain breeds of working dogs in the countryside and shy away from ever attempting to legislate firmly against those who abuse dogs by keeping them in inappropriate conditions in the cities . A "one complaint and you are out" mechanism could be justified by many professional countrymen, who treat their own working dog /companions with much greater kindness than this. Why not ban any urban dog abuser to prevent them ever being allowed to own one ever again....? I doubt it. Politicians wouldn't dare.... so they should not have attempted to act now either.

148

,

08/02/2007 17:02:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 353944, Article id was mapped to record!
149

the runt,

08/02/2007 17:07:55

http://www.basc.org.uk/content/docking_campaign_scotland please look at the picture then tell me tail docking for hunting/working dogs should not be allowed. i own an english springer spaniel with a docked tail, she had a litter last year the tails were docked these are working strain dogs there tails would cos them horrendous injuries (look at the picture) and unneccesary suffering,tails are docked at 3 days old by binding the tail and cutting of the circulation to the end of the tail, my bitches pups where all very active and i never heard one of them yelping pain or discomfort, i stand by my beliefs tails should be docked and i would never let my dog suffer, shes my friend, when everyone around is having a moan and a whinge put your hand out to your dog she /he will respond with a friendly lick or a nudge regardless if docked or undocked

150

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 17:12:20

#162 - you are right about many of these other welfare issues - especially the overbreeding you referred to - but that doesn't mean that docking is not also an issue. Two wrongs don't make a right..
The Scottish SPCA has just published it's 'Paws for a Vote' - a manifesto outlining what further measures it would like to see to improve the lives of animals in Scotland, the UK and Europe.
http://www.scottishspca.org/Pawsforavotemanifesto.aspx it makes interesting reading!

151

AngusMor,

God's Own Island 08/02/2007 17:12:33

Man! Media 1 your comment there had me in stitches! LMFAO! Good one.....

BTW, wheres Peeablo?

152

AngusMor,

God's Own Island 08/02/2007 17:15:22

Flash67

You have made some really good points today. Thinking into the future now....there will be times where a working dog, by very nature of their working environment and designed purpose, will injure it's tail, maybe even get an infection, especially during tick season and the vet will recommend tail docking as a cure and precautionary measure.

That, surely will re-ignite the debae in favour of docking?

153

Nancy Steffey,

118 Steffey Drive, Kittanning, PA, 16201, USA 08/02/2007 17:15:27

My husband and I have had Sporting Dogs for over 30 years. We have found that our German Short-haired Pointers, Springer Spaniels and German Wired-haired Pointers with docked tails have suffer much less pain and damage during a hunt than our friends long-tailed English Pointers. It is routinely the long-tailed dogs to require a vet visit after a full day hunt for cuts and abrasions caused by bush and thorns. On the ride home after a hunt, it was not uncommon for our frind's English Pointer to cry out in pain each time he tried to wag his tail. Docking the tail on day one or two of a Sporting Dog's life is much kinder than vet visits, pain medication, and antibiotics throughout his/her life.

Also, if the Scots plan to sale Sporting Dogs to areas outside Scotland they will find little or no market for long-tailed dogs. I know we would never own a long-tailed Sporting Dog for hunting in the Pennsylvania woods.

154

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada 08/02/2007 17:19:03

#31 CaliforniaBhoy..GOOD POST..agree with all your points.
# 108 Branda.. Good post also. Agree with your observation about the "slippery slope " of "banning",
as well as several other of your points.
ONE THING WE CAN NEVER BAN is "mankinds"
STUPIDITY...this(stupidity) is especially predominant in the males of our speicies
(makes me ashamed to say it (being one) BUT it is a FACT.

155

Media 1,

Peeablo 08/02/2007 17:22:00

#166 Angus: I am glad someone else is taking the issue with a pinch of salt, it was becommnig a bone of contention..lol

Dog tails! What a discussion eh..

156

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 17:28:27

Hi Angus #167 -
There will always be a debate on this, and vets will, of course, continue to do this where and when there is a clinical need.
The whole issue of possible wounding can be taken to ridiculous extemes - e.g. preventative mastectomies would reduce breast cancer. Preventative castrations of men would mean no more testicular cancer!

157

td,

Highlands 08/02/2007 17:29:13

Rules #170,

Certain types of dog have highly mobile tails, some are deployed more like whips than others. A springer spaniel's tail is never still, and many terrier breeds have the same highly energetic character.

If you go into woodland , or across moorland, go out into the countryside where there are cattle fences, broome, gorse, thorn bushes and brambles etc it is in the nature of a dog to search and hustle about through it all.

If you have not witnessed this then you must be one of those " urban " people who do not understand the relevance of this issue.

I am not advocating tail docking for urban dogs. But in the same way that a 4 x 4 is a country vehicle hardly designed for urban use.....some breeds of country dogs can benefit from a bit of "design" optimisation too.

158

Cheryl,

08/02/2007 17:31:01

Speaking as a veterinary technician, tail docking is totally pointless *unless* the dog is actually out hunting and working and there is a very real danger of the tail being caught on something and serious damage being done. The same with ear cropping. It does hurt the pup to have the tail docked but better that short time of pain as a pup than the pain and trauma which come when you have to do surgury, and possibly amputate, on a dog's tail because it was injured in the field.

As important as animal welfare is, there are many, many other issues in Scotland which should have been dealt with before now. He and the Scottish Parliament have been wasting time on secondary and downright frivilous issues instead of actually serving the people. Pathetic.

159

nabodican,

skye 08/02/2007 17:34:09

The point that a lot of people are missing here is that this is state interference where they should not interfere.
Lambs tails and goolies get ringed when hours old and nobody say's a word.
This kind of dogooder legislation usually originates from townies as did the ban on fox hunting.
Any fox that comes near my hens or lambs will not have to worry about a fox hunt.
I would defy anyone of these dogooders to defend a fox if they were to see what a fox will do in a hen run.
Leave country decisions to country folks !!

160

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 17:38:55

#175 -
How about doing some decent animal husbandry and keeping the fox OUT of your hen run -- or is outsmarting a fox too difficult?
Went to an organic free range poultry farm recently and asked about losses to foxes - zilch, as they have good preventative measures.

161

Flash67,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 17:41:25

#173 - some sensible comments, but by the same logic, shouldn't we be removing the long ears of working spaniels too? They are just as likey to be a problem in gorse...

162

AngusMor,

God's Own Island 08/02/2007 17:42:30

Theres a thought Flash, preventative castration!

The thing is, and don't get me wrong, I'm merely arguing the other side, we are sophisticated sentient beings have have a high level of conscienceness and have, for ourseleves, recognised that some improvements can be made to our physical being whether for artistic/political needs (tatooing, piercing and branding) and medical needs (tonselectomy, amputation, plastic surgery for cosmetic reasons being a huge industry now and available to the masses, men and women). We make the decision to do whatever on best advice from a range of people professional and otherwise.

Surely, in that context and given that we are soley responsible for the design of modern dogs, we can apply that same priciple to others that we have total responsibility for? After all, parents are expected to make decisions for children and hard decisions at that and no dog, however intelligent or trained, is worth more than peoples children.

163

Diana Smith,

Seattle, WA, USA 08/02/2007 17:52:05

Dock the tail because if left long the wagging could produce injury later in life? Good grief. With that kind of reasoning, maybe we should chop our arms off. After all, most of those of us working on computers get carpel tunnel & other ailments. If we didn't have arms to start with, we wouldn't suffer injury to them.

164

Harry Carnie,

British Columbia, Canada 08/02/2007 18:18:39

#179..Diana Smith...Spot on .agree!

165

Mahem,

Doon the road, tae yer left 08/02/2007 18:18:59

If Darwin was right all this would be unneccessary.

166

Donny B,

08/02/2007 18:19:39

ANTHROPOMORPHISM is a sad affliction.

167

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 08/02/2007 18:33:51

The Scottish Executive ... the institute which we, as scots should be looking to ban, they really don't have anything better to do than pass petty legislation and sit on their elbows ... they are a complete and utter disgrace and are making scotland the laughing stock of Europe and perhaps event the world ...

I just cringe in embaressment when I hear about the total crud they come up with and dispair when no-one has the common sense to tell them to stick their interfereing little lefty ludite ledgistlation where the sun don't shine ... the MSP's are worse for backing them ... communal IQ of a bag of bricks ...

There is NOBODY in this government that I have seen who I would trust to run a hot dog stand let alone handle our nation. We need a different calibre of person in government as these nobodys who we have in just now will destroy our beautiful country ....

168

nell from falkirk,

08/02/2007 18:37:50

I hope the Scotsman was paid the full rate for this advert for the Countryside Alliance crowd - has Louise Gray never heard of impartial journalism?

I live in the countryside. I have had dogs all my life, over 50 years. None has ever had its tail docked, and none has ever had a tail injury. I currently have 7 dogs, all "working" dogs - 1 labrador, 1 pointer, 1 beagle, 2 sheepdogs and 2 "heinz", and they're all up and down mountains, over fences and walls and through undergrowth all the time. None has ever had a tail injury.

The Scottish Executive is to be congratulated on a sensible & compassionate piece of legislation, decided upon after thorough consultation with the SSPCA, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, The British Veterinary Association and the British Small Animals Veterinary Association.

And I'm fed up with these huntin' shootin' creeps continuously pretending to somehow speak for the "countryside", and claiming that only city folk who "don't understand the country" are against their cruel pastimes. Folk in the city AND the country quite understand the types that get their jollies hiding behind a gun, hurting maiming and killing for fun.
Well done, Scottish Exec!

169

escosesacarol,

barcelona 08/02/2007 18:58:03

who is this law best for the SMPs and their ratings or is about the welfare of the. having been witness to a dog who had not had his tail docked getting it caught in a gorse bush i would say that the docking operation would have been far nicer that having the tail de-sleaved (skin ripped of).

170

The Editrix,

Germany 08/02/2007 19:12:54

I am passionately pro-hunting and pro-shooting. I have two (docked) Parson Russell Terriers from England for shooting purposes and nobody will accuse me of being overly politically correct. However, here in Germany docking is against the law (with possible exceptions for the shooting community) and to me, the arguments against docking are stronger than those for it, an opinion, which is shared by all major vets from the gundog- and terrier community here in Germany. I, personally, even prefer looking at a docked terrier, but I left my recently whelped puppies intact.

But that is not the point. The point is not animal welfare, far from it! They don't give a flying fornication for "animal welfare". We are talking about a political issue. The point is, and it is proven by each and every comment here, that this is just another power struggle over an issue the politically correct suburban jealousy-brigade just do not like because it's considered "elitist" -- shooting.

People like them, the heirs of the Puritans and those who burnt "witches" at the stakes, are scared stiff that somebody – somebody BETTER better than them -- might somewhere have fun.

Fun, mind you, of which they do not have control. And it's THAT they can't have.

Dogs' tails are just a lever and a tryout how far they can go.

VERY far, so it seems.

They have managed already to get hunting banned, another jealousy issue. This is the harbinger of a looming ban on shooting.

171

Sambo,

The deep south 08/02/2007 20:08:19

Didn't Tommy Sheridan get into trouble for getting a piece of tail?

172

Scaramouche,

08/02/2007 20:22:05

#31 and #157.
Actually, circumcision is a very old practice predating Hebrews, Ancient Egyptians and cities by centuries. It was most likely instituted by a tribe of hunter/gatherers in the Middle East, who were sophisticated enough to understand penile infections and that cleaning the foreskin was not enough to cure the infection. They therefore realised that cutting it off after birth was the way to go.

Of course, their descendants would forget the original reasons and substitute pseudo-religious ones to suit their level of sophistication.

There you go ...... the REAL reason.

173

I M Allright,

Abu Dhabi 08/02/2007 20:30:57

Once again the Scottish Parliament has shown how irrelevant it is to the country (Scotland) in its current function as a devolved, glorified and expensive "regional council". If all it can do is pass laws like this. God help us if we are an independent state with the same MSP’s.

How about the parliament addressing, for example, the abuses and corruption in the European Parliament (which costs Scottish tax payers a fortune); or unaccountability in the overrun of the parliament building; or the fundamentals of the West Lothian question and the natural consequences of devolution i.e. independence.

Instead "our leaders" focus on such issues as whether businesses have the right to decide to open on Xmas day or New Year day; or dogs should have their tail docked !!

National government officials should behave as states(persons)men and not glorified town councilors trying to justify their pay and perks with minor and petty motions.

174

The Editrix,

Germany 08/02/2007 20:31:56

"Then you are not welcome here."

So you own The Scotsman?

You don't know much about hunting, do you? Or about the motives of those who support it. Or about civilised discourse. Or about freedom of speech. Or about Germany.

And did I say anything about "conservation"? Do you have a point? Not liking mine isn't enough.

You are full of shi.... oooops .... sick gut feelings of envy, jealousy and inferiority. Try to get rid of that chip on your shoulder. It might help you to stand upright one day.

And thanks for proving my point.

175

The Editrix,

Germany 08/02/2007 20:36:16

"Then you are not welcome here."

So you own The Scotsman, right?

You don't know much about hunting, do you? Or about the motives of those who support it. Or about civilised discourse. Or about freedom of speech. Or about Germany.

And did I say anything about "conservation"? Do you have a point? Not liking mine isn't enough.

You are full of shi.... oooops .... sick gut feelings of envy, jealousy and inferiority. Try to get rid of that chip on your shoulder. It might help you to stand upright one day.

By the way, it has obviously escaped your attention that this should be about dogs' tail docking. What is your take on that as opposed to mine?

Thanks for proving my point.

176

Mariah,

Oregon, USA 08/02/2007 20:41:42

Interesting set of rants. I am actually quite surprised at the amount of responses that consider this animal cruelty.
I would think that if this is banned because it causes pain then circumcision would be too.
I have a hunting dog, her tail is not docked but we would like to get it docked.
She works hard and in the country we hunt her flank is covered with blood halfway through the day because she's cut up the end of her tail so badly on rock outcroppings and sagebrush and such.
It seems to me it would be a kindness to have her tail docked.

177

HNDac/BScab,

Scotland 08/02/2007 20:47:12

Dogs should NOT have their tails docked unless it is for medical reasons e.g. a serious tail injury or an infection, which would leave no other choice but to amputate.
Most dog owners/breeders who have their dogs tails docked do so for cosmetic purposes and not for the dogs’ sake.
Taking a dogs tail away from them is like taking the arms away from a human.
Dogs mainly use their tails for communicating, you can usually tell by the way the tail is positioned or by the movement of the tail, how the dog is feeling. E.g. Tail wagging - dog is happy, tail between legs - dog is scared, see what I’m getting at here? They also use their tails when communicating with other dogs. By taking their tail away from them, you are taking away a very important form of communication to dogs.
Before tail docking, the dogs managed pretty well, so what’s changed now? As I said, its all for cosmetic purposes. These owners/breeders who mutilate their dogs in this way only do so to please themselves, they have no compassion whatsoever towards dogs. If they want a pet with a short tail then they should opt for a hamster, which already has a short tail. No, in fact, they shouldn’t own pets at all.

Who said dogs don’t feel pain when they have their tails docked? They Do!!!
If you put a puppy that has recently had its tail docked next to a puppy with an entire tail, you will notice that they ARE uncomfortable. A young pup should be wriggling about and making noises, but one in pain will just lie there and hardly make a sound. This is the same for most animals, including humans (yes, we are animals as well). Think about it, how do you react when you are in pain? You want to be left alone don’t you? Well it’s the same for a dog.

For those people who say they dock their dogs’ tails because it is a working dog, the dogs don’t work all the time. While the dog is working, why don’t you protect their tail? This is easily done. You can buy protecti

178

HNDac/BScab,

Scotland 08/02/2007 21:00:53

Anyone heard of the FIVE FREEDOMS relating to animals?

1 - Freedom from Hunger and Thirst
2 - Freedom from Discomfort
3 - Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease
4 - Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour
5 - Freedom from Fear and Distress

Pay particular attention to numbers 2, 4 and 5.

(This message is mainly for people who enjoy cutting body parts off of their dogs)

179

I M Allright,

Abu Dhabi 08/02/2007 21:15:06

Yes dogs have rights and I love my dog, but look at 2,19,36,44,53,81,84, 96 and 183 and decide if we elected people to run our country or to run the details of our lives or even the details of our pets lives - that is the issue -not docking tails, whether right or wrong!!!

180

The Strategist,

08/02/2007 21:47:38

So that's the Scottish dog breeding industry stuffed then.

181

Branda,

Arizona 08/02/2007 21:55:40

#165 Flash67
> “The Scottish SPCA…manifesto outlining what *further measures* it would like to see to improve the lives of animals…”

It appears to me that the Society also sees tail docking and castration as mutilation in farm animals, doesn’t it? Where does the Society get it's funding. I'm just curious. Is it from public donations or government funded or both?

#175 nabodican, skye

> “Lambs tails and goolies get ringed…nobody say's a word.”

Apparently not for long. The society seems to have already begun to have its say on this issue too, right?

Welfar Manifesto, Page 21 (pdf format)
“The Scottish SPCA is concerned by the routine use of mutilations, such as tail docking and castration in farm animals. The Society is opposed to the tail docking of all agricultural animals except on grounds of veterinary need. While there are genuine welfare reasons for such mutilations, the Society believes that a review of the necessity and efficacy of such mutilations is needed.”
www.scottishspca.org/Admin/Uploads/News/Manifesto%20final...

Branda
“A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves.”
(Betrand de Jouvenel)

182

tassietiger,

tasmania 08/02/2007 22:29:13

I believe it is not cruel to dock a dog's tail and it is not just done for apperance's but in a lot of cases it is done for the animals protection esspecialy for huntting dog's there can be a lot of damage done to the animal when it is in the throws of hunting and it saves a lot of unnecarsary pain and suffering on the animals.
I don't believe the poeple up in arms about it has seen the damage that can be done in these sittuations.

183

Pilrig,

Livingston 08/02/2007 22:37:46

We got our Staffie cross from Dogstrust over a year ago. Part of the contract which we signed when we adopted our dug was that it would be neutered before it was 6 months old. The main reason for this was there are more than enough unwanted dugs around, usually living misreable lives. Dogstrust also microchip the dugs, to help trace them if they go missing. And they forbid docking of their dugs' tails.

184

albajoe,

arizona 08/02/2007 23:13:01

My Rotties want their tales back.

185

damocles,

Ontario 08/02/2007 23:41:09

Tail-docking, ears trimmed are all banned in this part of God's own country!
They are also banning in many cities & counties the keeping & breeding of mastiffs, rotweilers and the like.
We don't ban circumcision - yet, but we do ban femaile cicumcision
Good stuff eh?

186

WeeWillieWinkie,

Fallbrook, California 08/02/2007 23:52:17

So where were these guys when I was infant getting my willie docked?

187

Longbranchlady,

Southern Illinois USA 09/02/2007 00:26:06

Having had a dog whose tail was naturally docked, and a cat who lost most of his tail in an 'incident' I didn't witness, I can say that they really didn't miss what they didn't have. I dunno what happened to the cat just came home one day and there was a tail laying cut clean off on the barn floor. Bandit as the cat was named didn't seem to mind that he'd lost it, just went about his business. I've also known dogs who normally would have been docked but for some reason weren't and they did suffer with multiple tail breaks later in life. These were in house dogs who never went out longer than it took to pee or poop but their tails got them into all sorts of trouble. As for male circumcision, I had always believed that doctors consider it a way to keep infection from setting in cause the kid can't clean himself right.

188

Dekester,

Canada's westcoast 09/02/2007 00:28:06

Sure let us not ban more stuff..

What fools utter fools... I get my dogs tail wacked and the P.C. brigade have me charged. I tell the arresting officer ( From the Bow wow St. runners) any lie that will do.

Lawyers for both sides, puppies with advocates. Maybe even have their own social worker assigned.

Get real...very funny though watching donkeys being led by the nose..

189

The Wizard,

OZ 09/02/2007 00:32:30

#11

Must be bloody frightening being charged by an angry Quail when all you have is a Parker 12 bore side by side.

I do think Boxer's and Spaniels look odd with long tails.

190

ScoochMD,

Maryland 09/02/2007 00:38:02

Its mind boggling to me that this type of issue raises to the level of requiring legislative oversight and intrusion!

With that said, all the hand wringing over animal 'rights' reminds me of Hemingway's observation in 'Death in the Afternoon' that there seems to be an inverse relationship with those who are animal lovers and their treatment of their fellow human beings ...

191

The Wizard,

oz 09/02/2007 00:58:13

#195
DOGS USE TAILS TO COMMUNICATE.

My Boxers just waggled their arse.
No tail between their legs as they were never afraid.
When told off, sat on their bean bag, drooled, gave me that look that say's "feck off, I was just having fun and where's my biscuit'
And yes, they do look odd with tails.

192

Ceolmor,

Vancouver Island 09/02/2007 01:40:52

My brother once had the insane idea that docking pups tails was cruel. He had Great Dane and did not get her tail docked. When she matured her tail was a deadly weapon. It became a whip, smacking people on the legs and kids on the face. The end was always torn, bleading and infected.

The next thing, these idiots will ban debarking!

193

,

09/02/2007 04:19:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 354924, Article id was mapped to record!
194

,

09/02/2007 04:48:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 354935, Article id was mapped to record!
195

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta , California 09/02/2007 04:54:29

Dog tail-docking is nothing more or less than animal mutilation.

But wait did you so-called animal lovers know that:

Homo sapiens in certain countries perform mutilation, (genital mutilation) on young girls, in Africa, India, Indonesia, South America.....

And genital mutilation is performed on young boys in Israel. The mutilation of young boys a Jewish practice is also performed on non-Jewish males. In Scotland, England, USA, France, Germany etc...

Whether it is performed on animals (dogs) or Homo sapiens, it is still mutilation of a live body part.

Pretty savage me thinks.

Why don't you (so-called) animal lovers mutilate cats, cut off their tails?

Oh wait a minute. I forgot you people pull out the cats nails to de-claw the wretched creatures. Just another mutilation to save your precious furniture at mutilation cost to the cat...

Furniture probably made in India, China on the backs of prison labor or child labor, and where anything that walks on four legs is killed for food (China especially).

Why don't yall go down the pub and celebrate your need to mutilate defenseless animals.

GC

196

Mandrake,

09/02/2007 04:56:09

As man, not evolution, has developed the various breeds over the centuries to the point that some breeds could not survive in the wild alone leads me to no conclusion. Wolves have tails. So do coyotes and other canines, and they live in the deep bush. So is it really necessary?

The Highlands are pretty much barren, though i do not know much of the rest of Scotland. So is it necessary?

Often, current owners dock because it is tradition. Is that tradition based on real necessity?
I know fly-strike is a nasty thing, when you have maggots eating into your flesh, as with sheep. And I suppose thicket and bramble could pose a threat to the dog if it is a compulsive wagger, rather than the still tail of the preying wolf.

If docking is necessary, it is a pity our domestic breeds were crossbred to the point that mutilation became necessary for them to serve their master - man.

I wonder, if mankind were wiped out and the dogs continued to live - which breeds would survive and which breeds would not, and how would they evolve in the long run. Would their troublesome tails drop off?

197

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta , California 09/02/2007 05:12:08

#213 The Wizard.

Could it be then, that #1 Guga is an Australian lady.

Enquiring minds want to know !

GC

198

Phillip,

USA 09/02/2007 06:44:31

Regarding #113;

Spaying and Neutering a dog is not about stopping unfettered breeding, it's about removing the responsibility from the owner. By spaying or neutering a dog you are removing hormone producing organs that are important for the development of the animal. How would you like it if you never went through puberty because you lost your genitals! How would a woman like it if she had to go through menopause as a child!

Why is this done? So that owners don't have to properly train and protect their dogs so that unwanted pregnancies don't occur. How hard is it to keep a female dog away from males while she is in heat? Not hard at all. But it does mean the owner actually has to understand the animals and care enough to pay attention.

I've had dogs all my life and I have noticed the difference in the dogs I've owned as an adult. Those dogs haven't been spayed or neutered and their behavior is different from other dogs. And none of my dogs has ever had an unwanted pregnancy.

My most recent dog did have to have a hysterectomy last year due to illness, but I only allowed it to save her life.

Notice I called it a hysterectomy because that's exactly what it was. Using polite terms like "spay" or "neuter" only hides the fact that it's really castration and mutilation.

So there is no good reason for this barbaric practice except to make it easier on owners.

I don't know anything about tail docking, so I can't comment on whether that practice is needed or not. But I do think that there are other barbaric practices that should be abolished - among them declawing and inbreeding in the name of "pure breeds." Once again, these are practices that are done for owner convenience and vanity.

I've owned mixed breeds all my life and I'll continue to own mixed breeds until I die. They are infinitely healthier than pure breeds. And all of my dogs are treated as if they are a part of

199

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/02/2007 07:15:26

Dekester 208 - Cut out the right-wing bollox about PC , it's nothing to do with PC. What's thepoint of docking a dugs tail if it isn't a hunting dug ? Bloody stupid practice otherwise.

200

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/02/2007 07:17:18

212 gallacticacanibal or whatever the F you are - a spade is a shovel !

201

Paul Spencer,

Glasgow 09/02/2007 08:44:10

how would you like getting your tail cut.
if you can cut dogs tails that means that dogs can bite your nose off

202

Sixchimnies Springers,

England 09/02/2007 09:31:52

From 95% of the comments so far, it blantantly obvious that most 'townies' have no idea of the role that working dogs play. Their comments are based on things they have been told, heard or seen on TV.
Working dogs tails are docked for a reason - not because we think it looks nice.

Docking tails for cosmetic purposes IS unneccessary, but like all rural practices, tail docking of working dogs is done for a reason.

Before you make your biased comments, I suggest you get yourself out in the countryside a bit more and learn about rural issues instead of just banning them!

203

nell from falkirk,

09/02/2007 10:22:46

#221 good grief, can't you read?
Loads of these posts are from people who live and farm in the countryside and have kept dogs all their days.
Including me (#184) - so don't accuse people of ignorance of "country ways" because they don't like cruelty.


and I've just read #187, whose post bears out what I said about sick, inadequate people who "have some fun" by hiding behind a gun and causing hurt and pain to something which is smaller than themselves and can't fight back.

204

Yane,

Melbourne 09/02/2007 10:51:19

Yep, all up, I'm wi' Sandman's stroke o' genius at #132 -- Dock their legs, ears, tails -- anahin' that moves, opens or shuts, that way the dugs will become grubs an' be in nae danger.

205

Branda,

Arizona 09/02/2007 11:34:40

#222 nell from falkirk
"...sick, inadequate people who "have some fun" by hiding behind a gun and causing hurt and pain..."

You are a vegetarian?

Branda

206

Tormod,

Aberdeen 09/02/2007 12:55:34

More stupid and banal legislation from the SE/Parliament. More laws = More civil servants = more public cost = a poorer democarcy

Let me see...

Docking a dogs tale is cruel.

Human circumcision is okay.

When will this madness end, stop the bus I want to get off!!!

207

The Wizard,

OZ 09/02/2007 13:16:46

Just a few words about hunting. Having worked on an estate and been with the owners and their guests 'Deer Stalking" I can honestly say that many of them could not hit a barn door with a banjo.
I have no objection to the culling of Red Deer in Scotland by people who can hit what they are aiming at, but I find it difficult to understand why anyone would want to shoot Quail. The amount of lead shot in the cartridge probably out weighs the bird.
"Whats for tea honey'
"Quail a la twelve bore with a lead garnish"

208

Ratfish,

way down here at the bottom 09/02/2007 13:51:12

I thought reporters were supposed to be unbiased? Perhaps Ms Gray wants to be a columnist.

209

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/02/2007 14:27:34

225 - cheerio !

210

Different Drummer,

Midwest USA 09/02/2007 15:15:39

#160 -- That just goes to show how forgiving dogs can be and the unconditional love they extend toward us. They really, truly are our best friends. God knows we need them!! We aren't very good at being friends to ourselves or to others....

211

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/02/2007 15:16:32

229 - well said

212

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta , California 09/02/2007 15:57:38

#219 Pilrig.

It dosen't take much to get you wound up does it.

Have you discovered a one letter word F in the English language?

Sounds like another pollitically correct wimp.

GC

213

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/02/2007 16:23:03

231 - pollitically should be spelt 'politically'. And I'm correct - the rest of the universe is wrong.

214

Pilrig,

Livingston 09/02/2007 16:24:25

Besides what the uck has this to do with docking dugs' tails ?

215

Sixchimnies Springers,

England 09/02/2007 17:27:47

#222 The dogs that you have owned are not the type of breeds that need to be docked.

You mean to tell me that you live/have lived in the country and never owned a spaniel.

If you had you would know the consequences of owning an un-docked spaniel in the country.

Again, like I say, unless you can speak from experience then you cannot have a valid opinion for or against.

http://www.cdb.org/images/cdb1.jpg

http://www.cdb.org/thumbnails/gsp_b_t.jpg


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 

Featured Advertising



Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.