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£37bn bank bail out confirmed



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Gordon Brown on today's HBOS and RBS bailout
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Published Date: 13 October 2008
Three of Britain's biggest banks were thrown a £37 billion lifeline by the Government today as part of a dramatic taxpayer rescue of the UK's banking system.
The Government is injecting £5 billion into Royal Bank of Scotland, and also underwriting a £15 billion share issue by the bank.

Lloyds TSB and its proposed new partner Halifax Bank of Scotland are also receiving up to £17 billion of emergency funding, with the terms of the banks' merger also being reworked.

Under the unprecedented package, the Government could theoretically end up owning around 60% of RBS, and 43.5% of the combined Lloyds TSB-HBOS entity.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown said the bail-out was "unprecedented but essential for all of us".

"For savers, for small businesses, and for homeowners, we must in an uncertain and unstable world be the rock of stability on which the British people can depend," he said.

The rescue deal also claimed the UK's first major casualties of the the banking crisis, with RBS chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin and chairman Sir Tom McKillop both standing down.

Sir Fred, who earned £4 million last year and asked shareholders for £12 billion in April to shore up the group's balance sheet, is being replaced immediately, with Sir Tom retiring from the board next April.
Chancellor Alistair Darling said the bank bosses have waived their contractual entitlements. "I think they have decided to do the right thing there," he said.

Sir Tom said: "It is immensely regretful that we are coming to shareholders to raise funds again. This is something that we certainly feel bad about."

He also expressed regret for communities affected by the turmoil of the last few weeks.

"There has been tremendous movement of funds back and forward. I think the whole community has been nervous for the last few weeks."
Lloyds TSB is raising £5.5 billion of new capital, including £1 billion from the Government and £4.5 billion through a Government-backed share offer. HBOS is raising an extra £11.5 billion, including £3 billion through preference shares with the Government.

Barclays said it was not turning to the Government for emergency funding, unveiling instead plans to raise more than £6.5 billion from investors to help shore up its balance sheet. The high street bank also said it will not pay a final dividend for 2008, saving the group £2 billion.

HSBC, the UK's other major banking group, has already announced separate capital-raising measures to bolster its UK operation.

Mr Darling said RBS, Lloyds TSB and HBOS would be run "at arm's length" from the Government, and ministers would not be involved in day-to-day decisions.

He said the Government was injecting "very substantial sums" into the banks to stabilise the system.

"It is necessary because we are going through quite extraordinary circumstances the world over," he said.

"I believe that what we are doing will help, it will go a long, long way to reassuring people.

"There is a lot of turbulence to go through yet, there are a lot of bumps along the way, but I believe that this first step will help in two respects.

"First, it makes our banks strong. Secondly, of course, it is beginning the process of making lending easier."

The Government is to appoint three directors to the RBS board and two to Lloyds TSB.

London's leading share index, which slumped 21% in its worst week since 1987, rallied nearly 6% today after the rescue package was unveiled.
Barclays was up 14%, Lloyds TSB 10% higher and Royal Bank of Scotland 3% better off. But HBOS shares moved in the opposite direction, sliding nearly 10% as investors digested the terms of the reworked merger with Lloyds TSB.


'Fred the Shred' to step down as RBS chief

Brown finds a career life raft in financial storms

Hester set to land top RBS role as Goodwin pays price for slump

Brown confident of persuading European leaders to adopt UK-style rescue package

Salmond rebuts 'arc of insolvency'

The full article contains 678 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Crank Parent,

Livingston 13/10/2008 10:24:50
How embarrassing for Scotland - an English government will own 60% of The Royal Bank of Scotland.
2

MickyFinn,

Livingston 13/10/2008 10:29:37
#1
Sorry have I missed something it is a British Goverment and banking is global as is the crisis.
3

Daft Old Git,

13/10/2008 10:33:34
#1
Don't think most English people feel that Brown and Darling are English
4

The Strategist,

13/10/2008 10:45:27
RBS has been controlled by the City and the Treasury for as long as I can remember. That's why it's in the mess it's in and why its real benefit to the Scottish economy is so limited.
5

MickyFinn,

Livingston 13/10/2008 10:45:32
#4

to whom do you refer or to all?
6

Scotfree,

Erskine 13/10/2008 10:50:11
I think the main outcome of these events is not going to be the demise of the Scottish banking sector but will be seen as the end of the City of London as a major global bourse, the end of the Bank of England as a perceived lender of last resort and centre of Central Banking excellence and the Pound Sterling as a major trading currency. Alex Salmond has reflected the mood of most Scots and certainly most nationalists in stating he sees no future for Scotland in remaining with the pound and would now rather take the Euro as the future currency of Scotland.
None of these three English institutions is capable or willing to enable Scotland to expand its European or Global business interests. This is not a purely Scottish change of opinion. It has been commented that the city of London was sustained over the last ten years by the inflow of money from China, India and the Middle East and that the end of that flow is the main cause of the current crisis. It is unlikely given the incompetence and treachery and barefaced fraud we have seen from the City and UK government over the last months that the flow is likely to recommence. This incidentally, makes the financing of the billions required for the government takeover of Scottish assets look decidedly dodgy, particularly as the main source of collateral, Scotland oil is no longer going to be available to them,
Reflecting on this with a mere six months of Scotland’s oil revenues being able to purchase the entire British banking sector it is likely that Scottish banks would most like move to Frankfurt or an equivalent bourse in Edinburgh. In simple terms this would leave the three institutions of the pound the City of London and The Bank of England isolated, in a small corner of Europe based on economy the size of Spain with no collateral backing for it's trades, and populated by non-dom tax exiles, Russian mafia and other fraudsters and economic refugees of dubious repute. Which major investment block is even going to co
7

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 11:04:10
#7 - Lots of clever words, but very little sense. The City of London is not a trading bourse, that is the London Stock Exchange. This is primarily home to British companies and will continue to be so. RBS and HBOS cannot delist from the London Stock Exchange without the approval of their shareholders. And guess who now has the major share in RBS and a very large stake in HBOS. Yup the British government. I think it is unlikely the British government will cast its voting preferences in favour of a move to Germany.
8

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 11:05:03
#5 - RBS, like all other banks, is controlled by and answerableto its shareholders. As from today, the biggest shareholder in RBS is the British government.
9

The Strategist,

13/10/2008 11:10:04
#9

Yes... I know and here's the lowdown on Fred's replacement..He's a Goodwin clone!

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/article1290133.ece



10

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 11:13:34
This deal puts independence off the agenda for at leaet a decade. Throughout this crisis Salmond has been at best embarassing and naive while the Liberals completely lost touch with reality with their suggestion last week that the BOS could go it alone.
11

Marty Cohen,

13/10/2008 11:22:51
Sales and Service. The fundamentals of building a financial success.

You gotta inspect what you expect.
12

famous 15,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 11:24:21
This deal and events have put an extra impetus into the push for Scottish independence. The Scots now realise that only they can care for Scotland. Norway is not suffering as we are. The SNP leader has no power in the devolution scenario and therefore is indeed in the embarrassing position of impotence where he clearly has the competence to do better for Scotland than dithering Darling!
13

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 11:38:05
#13 - If you believe in a Norwegian-style oil fund, then you must also believe in Norwegian-levels of taxation. In fact, given that Norway has few of Scotland's post-industrial problems, because it has never had an economy based on heavy industry, the chances are that to support an oil fund and maintain current levels of services taxes in Scotland would have to be higher than they are in Norway.
14

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 13/10/2008 11:41:03
Wait for Gordon Brown, Darling and Lord Mandy's (ennobled today) heads to feature on Scottish bank notes; I'll bet on Gordy on £50 notes, Darling on £20s and Lord Mandy on £10s. Maybe Alastair Campbell can take the fivers.
15

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 11:46:31
14 Border Scot#

Absolute rubbish, you know nothing of what could, would and might have been so why bother even making a comment.

It's all speculation, you have no way of knowing how Scotland would have developed following 30 years of independence.

Incidentally regarding your comment on industry, Norway continiues today to have shipyards and built cruse liners, fishing boats, merchant ships..Scotland?

Have you been to Aberdeen? You will notice that all the merchant ships are Norwegian and not Scottish!

Try and post something with sense not what you 'imagine' would have been the 'unionist' scenario of an independent Scotland!
16

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 11:54:10
#16 - How many Norwegians were employed in that country's mining industry Nevsky? How many in steeelworks, foundries etc? The simple and plain fact is that Norway's economic history is completely different to Scotland's, primarily because Norway was never an integral part of the biggest empire the world has ever seen.

Another very simple fact is tha in every western country - the UK, France, Germany, the US, Italy, Spain and so on - heavy manufacturing and mining has moved eastwards. It is cheaper and easier to do in eastern Europe and Asia than it is here, because of the lower cost base and less strict environmental standards.

All countries have had to deal with it and an independent Scotland would have been no different. That would have meant a lot of expenditure, whichever way you look at it. And that would have meant spending Scotland's oil money. Therefore in order to have an oil fund, Scotland would have needed far highr taxes than it has had. And as we all know in Norway taxes are far higher than they are in Scotland even now.
17

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 11:56:53
#16 and 13. Norways oil reserves are several orders of magnitude higher than Scotlands. As it stands our two largest financial instiutions are effectively bust and it was nothing to do with being part of the UK. This situation came about because of a bank policy of unsecured lending to foreign financial institutions. Without Brown and Garling there would be no HBOS or RBS. Thats the facts.
Salmond's policy of wrapping himself in a saltire and mouthing of brigadoonnish economics was in keeping with his ego but frankly laughable.
18

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 11:58:20
17 Border Scot#

How many merchant ships are Scottish built and owned in the North Sea?

Simple question?

Here is anither, why can Norway, build, own and maintian them and Scotland has none?

This is down to Scotland's heavy industry is it?

I might also point out that Norway was the poorest country in Europe (nearly) and built from zero into the hardest currency in the world. Scotland had a vastly more developed infrastructure and we now have not even 1 national bank..he haw...what a joke!
19

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 12:08:56
16 Ronaldo#

You are another one spouting rubbish today:

'Norways oil reserves are several orders of magnitude higher than Scotlands'

True as Scotland does not have 1 penny. In fact Norway has £186 BILLION's worth of magnitude higher than Scotlands thatn's to the mis-management of Westminster!

'As it stands our two largest financial instiutions are effectively bust and it was nothing to do with being part of the UK'

WRONG. As far as i know both banks have acted within the UK's banking framework and not in an independen Scotland. If you can point to them acting under independent Scottis legislative frameworks you would have a point, but you don't..you have no argument!


'Without Brown and Garling there would be no HBOS or RBS'

You are a complete goof. Brown is the root cause of the irresponsible banks (he admitted it remember). Yet now you want to praise him for a £500 BILLION pound sticky plaster on the problem he partly caused...you are a first class moron and yet another unionist who is on a morphine-like induced view of the world!




20

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 12:12:00
#19 - I notice that you have avoided answering every single point I made.

21

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 12:22:00
#20 Nevski

You may believe that banking regulations would have been different in an independent Scotland in 2004, but it is a pointless hindsight argument. I can't remember any political party demanding drastic changes to banking regulations a few years ago.

Maybe they would have been the same as Iceland's... who knows?

Would there be a Scottish stock exchange, or would companies still register and trade in the LSE?.... Who knows?... I presume they would go for the one with the laxest regs.
22

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 12:26:25
21 Border#


I am not answering becuase they are hypothetical, historical questions that neither i nor you can answer with any accuracy.

The questions i am asking YOU are based on fact and the actual circumstances of the country today!
23

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 12:30:34
#20 Complete and utter rubbish.
As independent companies the banks were responsible for their own businesses. Both lent imprudently to overseas banks who now cannot pay back their loans. So both are effectively bust.
Like many in the SNP you pretend that independence will somehow save us all. Since he came to power Salmond has not done single thing to make Scotalnd more posperous. He has failed to invest in our industry, failed to invest in our youth and failed to invest in the country. Mothing off insults and brigadoon rubbish like you and Salmond does merely comfrims ignorant and out of touch with reality you lot are.
Frankly its embarassing.
24

Salem,

13/10/2008 12:31:49
# 7 Scotfree

Excellent analysis

There’s enough embarrassment and blame to go around
Scotland has to move as rapidly as possible beyond the current situation.

Having been conditioned to defeat for generations, no surprise some have said this puts independence off the table.

Salmond has to show us what he is made of.
He needs to galvanize the Scottish people with a vision of a better future. He needs to employ every political tactic in the book to force the issue.

# 8 Border Scot

You’re right; the British government owns RBS and HBOS.

Thanks Nevesky for taking care of the other comments from Border Scot but please turn down the volume on the personal stuff!

Historical reasons caused RBS to be headquartered in Edinburgh. RBS stopped being a “Scottish” bank a long time ago. Under the incompetent Goodwin through mergers and acquisitions around the globe Edinburgh was reduced to a front office. Remaining in Edinburgh as the Royal Bank of Scotland was a brand name issue intended to capitalize on the notion of the frugality and caution of the Scots.

The reality is the Scottish people are a tiny fraction of depositors and shareholders and RBS investments in Scotland are minimal.

So let the “British” government have RBS.

Salmond has to double his efforts and spell out a new way forward. Scotland needs a truly “Scottish” banking system starting from the ground up. Scotfree is right it should be tied to the Euro.

The immediate future for Scotland could not be worse; the Scotsman laid it out yesterday.

If ever there was a time to fire up the case for independence it is now. The SNP has to capitalize on the pain people are going to feel in the coming months.

A good place to start would be to wipe Labour off the face of the map in Glenrothes on November 06.
25

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 12:33:58
22 Tin Man#

You are right, no-one knows what structures they would have operated in, maybe like Iceland's maybe Ireland's amaybe Norway's..i don't know and neither does anyone else.

That is why it is completely pointless for unionists to claim this proves that Scotland could not be independent.

Scotland is in this situation within the UK and what it proves is only that the banking sector in the UK is a complete disaster!

This is a UK problem, a UK mess, the UK is throwing money into banks, the UK is one of the worst performing countries in the world with regard to this...FULL STOP!
26

Calum10,

13/10/2008 12:38:06
In trading in bank shares every taxpayer, now shareholder, has LOST over £100 each today. £100 gone in a flash before the ink is dry on the bail-out agreement.

We should all give thanks to Gordon Brown for making such a wise investment on our behalf. The man is truly a financial genius.
27

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 12:38:57
At least Salmond has not blamed the banking crisis on Westminster, unlike may posters. Nor has he, and his party, ever proposed nationalisation of banks, or revision of regulatory controls.

He has also never expoused Irish taxation levels, whilst promising to deliver Norwegian levels of State welfare, which makes him rather more sensible than some of today's posters.
28

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 12:42:20
#28 Really! Two weeks ago Salmond said there was no need for HBOS to merge with Lloyds and that the RBS was sound. As of Friday last week, liabilities at RBS were £2000 billion.
29

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 12:45:30
#23 - But your entire case for Scottish independence is based on hypotheticals. Please make your mind up.
30

Ewan M,

13/10/2008 12:47:25
I think SNP supporters live on another planet. If we were not part of the UK, Scotland would have had to bankrupt herself to salvage HBOS and RBS. We would be in the same state as Iceland and would require massive international assistance. Wasn't Iceland mentioned by Salmiond as one of the countries who he compared Scotland to as a sucess story of an independent nation!!!!!

Calumn10 you are quite clearly not a financial genuis. This is a long term solution and you comments are light years of the mark.
31

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 12:47:36
24 Ronaldo#

Once again your arguments are trite and not really worth replying to but one last time:

'As independent companies the banks were responsible for their own businesses'

IN A UK FRAMEWORK THAT ALLOWED THEM TO DO IT!

'Like many in the SNP you pretend that independence will somehow save us all'

Never heard anyone in the SNP EVER stating this so i presume you are making it all upjust to back up a weak argument.

'Since he came to power Salmond has not done single thing to make Scotalnd more posperous. He has failed to invest in our industry, failed to invest in our youth and failed to invest in the country'

Really! What an informed comment..i could just as easily say 'Labour has done not a single thing to make the UK more prosperous'..see, what's the point in even writing something like that?

Salmond does not have the resources to make Scotland prosperous and neither does the Scottish Parliament..you are aware of this but once again nothing more than an attempt to belittle Salmond with a sweeping and mis-placed allegation! The question should be 'why has Labour done nothing, they have all the money in Westminster'.

'Mothing off insults and brigadoon rubbish like you and Salmond does merely comfrims ignorant and out of touch with reality you lot are'

Lastly this 'peach' of a comment. Salmond is not responsible i believe for losing one penny of taxpayers money in this whole crisis so maybe you could point out all the policies that you believe are 'brigadoon'?

Unless it escaped your attention, Brown is costing the taxpayer probably £500 BILLION, tax will rise, unemployment will go up, recession is imminent, the country is BORROWING the money based on 'gilts' as it is broke.

You are seriousely out of touch and appear not to have read anything in the past week.

Brig a Broon is in deep deep trouble!





32

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 12:49:24
Ewen M#

As has been pointed out 500 times the banks are in this mess in the UK. The point is Scotland cannot afford the UK and not about independence!
33

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 12:50:14
#29 Ronaldo

Yes, perhaps he failed to notice the RBS making a loss this year, but I think he was just spouting guff for want of anything better to say.
34

Ewan M,

13/10/2008 12:51:21
Alex Salmond would say anthing to get a vote!!! How about for a start try getting him to keep to his own manifesto pledges. Students debts, nursery care, 1000 NEW police oh sorry RECRUIT, RETAIN and REDPLOY. They made that clear in the manifesto right enough!!
35

Alastair the First,

13/10/2008 12:52:10
I have long wondered why the SNP didn't just make it their policy to go straight to the Euro after independence - and in fact campaign for the Euro to be adopted now. For years we have suffered from higher interest rates and an economy adjusted to suit the needs of London and the SE of England. I think when the dust settles and everyone realises that Gordon Borwn is part of the cause of the problems, rather than some genius who has solved the problems as he is trying to portray himself (aided by a very compliant press it has to be said), there will be increasing pressure to adopt the Euro. The only opponents will be the Little Englanders who "don't want any of that foreign muck". We in Scotland need to look after our own interests and IMHO that means joining the Eurozone. The arguments about our trading with England are frankly trivial as I see no difficulty experienced by Eurozone countries in sending their goods to the current Sterling zone.
36

Ewan M,

13/10/2008 12:54:16
Nevsky your on another planet!!! The majority of financial assistance is being provided to HBOS and RBS. They make up around 80% of the capitialisation programme.

There no convincing you, but they'll be many undecided who see the facts in front of them. Enjoy Moscow!
37

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 12:55:09
#30 Border Scot

Nationalist movements are based mostly on ethnic patriotism.

Any other arguments are mostly hypothetical may-be's which just give people something to argue about, as there is not much to debate on the subject of ethnic patroitism.
38

Salem,

13/10/2008 12:59:27

# 24 Ronaldo...

Imprudent lending is one way of saying it. I’d say it was reckless risk taking. And it wasn’t only lending practices that sunk them. It was more the liabilities they took on through mergers and acquisitions.

You are right Salmond has not one accomplishment to his name that has benefited the daily lives of the Scottish people.

And the main reason is the straight jacket he’s in. The so-called devolved “Scottish” government in Holyrood is a joke. It is a debating forum housed in an architectural monstrosity where MSPs of all parties embarrass themselves by fighting and arguing on matters of consequent but having no power or authority to change anything.

And that for your information is exactly how it was intended to be, keep them fighting and arguing among themselves, its all their good for!

The current situation arising from this financial debacle should be seen as an opportunity, to once and for all break away from a union that has reduced Scotland to a shadow of it’s former self.

The unanswered question remains whether Alex Salmond and the SNP have what it takes to lead the charge.
39

Marga,

Fife 13/10/2008 13:20:53
For everyone crowing about Iceland, at least "it will ultimately prosper again" by its own efforts after some monumental mismanagement. (Article by LSE professor of economics)

The shocking errors of Iceland’s meltdown

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/80f767e4-9882-11dd-ace3-000077b07658.html

It's Scotland, tied to the author of UK mismanagement but without the independence to dig our own way out, that we need to worry about.
40

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 13:31:19
#40

Perhaps the UK will dig it's self out and prosper again. However, you sound too aloof to bother to do any digging, prefering to blame others, instead.
41

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 13:33:43
#40 Marga

You get to vote for a MP, MEP, MSP, and local councillors. Do you think you have a right to absolve yourself of any democratic responsibility?
42

danbob,

13/10/2008 13:39:43
Whats worrying is that the government wants Lloyds-HBOS and RBS to be leaders in getting mortgage lending going back to the 2007 levels as part of the conditions of this £37 billion loan. Even the Council of mortgage lenders has claimed this is folly and just a wish list. I do wonder if the government has really learned anything.
43

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 14:07:55
#44 Fed up

As you have failed to notice, I have not been crowing about anything.

As you have failed to notice, I have stated that the RBS / HBOS banking crisis may, or may not, have been averted if upon independence.

As you have failed to notice, I have never extolled patriotic nationalism.

You may believe that Scotland is economically ill if you want.

Both yourself, and Marga are pointlessly blaming the banking crisis on 'the union' without any evidence that any parties in an independent Scotland would have chosen a different path.

At least Salmond has not blamed the banking crisis on Westminster, unlike yourself. Nor has he, and his party, ever proposed nationalisation of banks, or revision of regulatory controls.


44

Salem,

13/10/2008 14:27:39
The thing that’s jumping out at me from all the hot air in these forums, including my own, is given recent events how can anyone in his/her right mind make the case that the union has been good and worked for Scotland.

The other thing that jumps out at me is those who are pro-union don’t make the case FOR the union but instead attack the notion of independence. Such a strategy indicates a lack of ideas supporting the union.

Everyone must surely acknowledge the situation facing Scotland is grave as laid out yesterday by the Scotsman.

If for no other reason that things couldn’t be worse then why not give independence a try.

There just has to be a better way forward.

Never has there been a time for Scotland to take responsibility of it’s own destiny as now.

Scotland doesn’t need a British solution; Scotland needs a Scottish solution for Scotland. I think this is what Marga was trying to say.

Let the people’s voices to be heard through a referendum and settle this matter once and for all but first run Labour out of town in Glenrothes.

45

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 14:39:39
#46 Salem

That is your view. What is jumping out at me, on the other hand, is that the banking crisis is irrelevent to the independence debate.

Things could be better, the same, or worse (the last possibility does not peek through your intrinsically superior blinkers).
46

Salem,

13/10/2008 14:55:27
# 47 Tin Man

The banking crisis may not be directly connected to the question of independence but the consequences of the failures most certainly do have and will continue to have a adverse effect on the daily lives of the people.

You need to clarify your last paragraph?

A touch of civility would do no harm either!
47

Anthony,

Glasgow 13/10/2008 14:58:00
Governments are letting banks off far too lightly. What this whole catastrophe has exposed is two things. Firstly, the current banking system is an extremely inefficient means of injecting liquidity into an economy. Secondly, the profits of the banks, and the earnings of the high flighers is largely unjustified. They are not the ultimate bearers of risk. They enjoy access to unearned public funds, and their risk is underwritten in this respect too. They are given inside information by government on economic indicators, and enjoy limited protection against competition. There is neither the risk nor the scarcity of skill in any of this, to justify these profits bonuses and salaries. Banks should also lose their license to routinely rip off customers, by abusing their priveleged positions.
48

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 15:11:52
#48 Salem

My apologies for any incivility. HBOS & RBS may be bailed out, primarily to secure loans and savings, for people in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
49

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 15:19:23
#48 Salem

To explain my comment: you are saying that things would be better than they are currently, and that is an argument of the 'intrinsically superior' type (basically claiming that Scottish politicians are more superior to those from the rest of the UK, for all practical purposes).

Things could be better, the same, or worse, in equal measure.
50

danbob,

13/10/2008 15:35:21
If people are so sure that things would have been better for the past twenty years under Scottish rule. Why did you not vote SNP twenty years ago? They were there, but if my memory serves me correctly, apart from areas in the far north west of Scotland, they got less votes than screaming lord sutch.
51

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 15:42:16
Hey Border Scot, Ronaldo etc you cant argue with our resident Norwegian Ambassador Nevsky about Norway.

The guy is an expert on the country.

The fact that he has never even been there is not important.

He even knows that all the merchant ships in Aberdeen were made in Norway.

The guy is a Norway specialist.

So dont mess with him.

He used to also be an Iceland expert.

Strange how he never mentions it anymore.

52

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 15:53:58
53 Rufus#

Here is today's news from Norway, Maritime contracts and new supply ships delivered; maybe you can find some Scottish stories Rufus?

Surely the UK has invested in shipbuilding to suport the oil industry in the UK? Is it in Aberdeen do you know? Glasgow maybe?

http://www.ostensjo.no/ostensjo/web.nsf/pages/default
53

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 16:01:36
Rufus#

Just for you!

'Maersk Trader formally named
Vessel & ROV News - October 8, 2008

On October 3rd the AHTS Maersk Trader was formally named at Aker Yards Langsten, Norway.

Maersk Trader is an anchor handling tug supply vessel with 15,300bhp, and is the second vessel of a series of 10 vessels from Aker Yards for Maersk Supply Service'

How many shipyards are building in Scotland again Rufus? How much has the government invested in this sector?

54

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 16:02:16
Great Website Nevsky but I need you to translate for me.

Edda Flora ble døpt ved Karmsund Maritime Service AS på Karmøy, hvor 150 verftsansatte siste halvår har vært engasjert i utrustning av spesialskipet.
55

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 16:05:55
56 Rufus#

Think it roughly translates that you have no argument again; no surprise there then!
56

And180yO,

13/10/2008 16:08:00
So the banks get a bailout, what help for small business?
HMRC present 68% of winding up petitions in England and Wales, will small businesses now get the opportunity to repay their debts and keep people in employment or do they get whipped to death to pay for the bailout?
57

Rufus T. Firefly,

13/10/2008 16:09:04
Hey Nevsky, I am no expert on shipbuilding and would never try and purport to be.

I could do what you do though and pretend I know all about it and cut and paste from a few websites.

So here you go;

British shipbuilding, nationalised in 1977 but privatised by Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, has almost completely disappeared in the face of cut-price competition from the far east. A few British yards survive on naval work but most of the purely civilian ones have moved into ship repair or offshore platform work, leaving new Cunard vessels such as the Queen Mary 2 to be built in France.
58

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 16:19:02
#46 "then why not give independence a try."
Because Scotland is not financially viable. Its that simple. The only country that sits above this is Norway because of oil. Just look at the so-called tiger economy of Ireland. Their government's guarantee of the banks is equal to three times the country's GDP. In other words its worthless.
59

The Strategist,

13/10/2008 16:20:08
Nevsky

No - there is no shipbuilding in Aberdeen now. Last yard closed down about ten years ago.

The UK Govt and the financial institutions weren't prepared to support it.
60

The Strategist,

13/10/2008 16:22:42
#60

Wrong... An independent Scotland would be perfectly viable. In fact once out from under the dead hand of the Treasury and the City of London Scotland would flourish.
61

Western Gael,

13/10/2008 16:27:18
The Government nationalises banks today and their share values immediately tank. We'll certainly reap benefits from nationalisation of the banking industry similar to those of nationalised health care.
62

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 16:33:19
#62 To flourish you need a vibrant industry. In Scotland - Fishing is all but finished, Agriculture is flat in output. Heavy industry is gone and oil is now starting to run out. Tourism is static and the finacial indsutry, the jewel in our crown is bust. Where would this economic vitality come from?
63

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 16:39:23
64 Ronaldo#

You are not doing a very good job of selling the union?

Everything you have listed above is as a result of Scotland being in the UK.


64

peteedinburgh,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 16:41:06
#63 - maybe this is why you aren't the finacial whizzkid.

The Govt nationalises about 60% of the bank. i.e it now owns 60%. The shareholders own 40% instead of their original 100%.

You would expect the shares owned by shareholders to drop 60% on the news assuming the bank had the same intrinsic value but instead they dropped a lot less today. The assumption is either that this is a very good thing to build the bank's value back up - or more likely that most shareholders saw it coming and bailed out ages ago.

Sorry to deprive you of a cheap poke at the Govt.



65

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 16:47:12
#65 I'm putting forward facts. I know that Brigadoon economics is more popular with the nationalists but even they will wake up to reality some day.
As for the problems I listed being uniquely Scottish and therefore the result of the Union, I think you'll find things are much the same in Cornwall, Devon, Northumberland, Yorkshire and may other parts of tegh UK. Its just that these areas get on with things and aren't given to moaning like many Scots.
66

Steve 'The Nugget' Davis,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 16:51:49
#65 - Are you suggesting that the fishing, agriculture and manufacuting industries are all virtually finished in Scotland, because of Scotland's membership of the United Kingdom? What would an independent Scotland have done differently that would have resulted in larger, more profitable, sustainable businesses in these industries?

You also suggest that the oil is running out because of the Union - is that because you think that, without the existence of the United Kingdom, world oil consumption would have been far lower over the last thirty years?
67

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 16:58:21
67 Ronaldo#

None of them are 'uniquely Scottish' they are all British. Try finding any 'uniquely Scottish' solutions in Westminster or Brussels?

They have failed or are on their last legs (according to you an expert on fishing and farming) because they are in the UK and Scotland has followed UK policy!
68

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 17:00:26
Nevski is extolling the Norwegian government shipbuilding subsidies from a few years back. Didn't we do that in Scotland, but any possible benefit was symied by our comrade workers?
69

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 17:01:19
68 steve#

No i am not saying that. I am saying that if Ronaldo states that all these things are finished then it must be because UK PLC is not working for Scotland. As we have never been independent we can hardly blame Scotland can we?
70

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 17:05:26
70 Tin Man#

The fact remains they are building ships and we aren't. Their merchant fleet has virtual monopoly over the north sea. They have shipyards, we don't. They have maintenance contracts, we don't. They employ merchant officers, back room staff, admin, offices, we don't. They get all the profits, modern infrastructure and technology, jobs, traineeships and investment.

Scotland in this industry...very very little!
71

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

13/10/2008 17:09:08
#69 Fishing and agriculture come under the scope of the EU and not the UK.
#71 We were independent but had to establish a union because the country was bankrupt after the Darien fiasco.
72

Steve 'The Nugget' Davis,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 17:09:38
#71 - But that's ridiculous logic. These industries could be finished because the opening up of the global market has enabled countries such as China, India, etc to produce certain goods far more cheaply than we can in the UK/Scotland.

If this is the case, then how could an independent Scotland have prevented this in a sustainable way (of which protectionist import taxes and large government subsidies are not examples)?
73

Border Scot,

13/10/2008 17:17:09
#71 - It's worth remembering that we are not independent because we have never voted for independence or even given close to amajority of our votes to parties that support independence.Scotland is part of the Union because Scotland wants to be.

Are you saying that in an independent scotand we will have a thriving shipbuilding industry? Is the money for this going to come from the government? If so, what cuts will be made elsewhere to allow this investment?
74

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 17:43:47
76 sm753#

Well assembly is not actually building the sgip as i am sure you are aware. Platers and welders and fitters are not quite the same as building it...although any scraps thrown at Scotland are welcome to keep the industry alive..here is what Norway are doing instead:


We – the editors and publishers of this magazine – are convinced that your reading of it, or even just browsing through it, will leave you with the impression that the Norwegian shipbuilding industry is an undisputed success story. In the course of 2006 the yards have delivered quality ships in a constant flow – and the orderbooks are as full as they have never been before. The figures are astonishing: Norwegian yards have in 2006 delivered a record number of ships, all of which presented in this magazine, and the combined orderbook accounted at the turn of the year for NOK 50bn, which is all time high.
75

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 17:44:32
#72 Nevsky

That is the result of state-subsidised Norwegian yards building ships in 1980, whilst state-subsidised Scottish yards built ships between disputes about tea-breaks etc, etc, etc. Wha's like us?
76

The Tin Man,

13/10/2008 17:50:26
#72 Nevsky

In the face of a decline in ship-building demand, and cheaper competition from Korea and Japan, we subsidised shipbuilding, and went on strike about pretty much anything that was different from what went before.

The Norwegians subsidised shipbuilding, didn't go on strike, rationalised and modernised their yards.
77

Nevsky,

Moscow 13/10/2008 17:59:36
79 Tin Man#

Totally agree but it does make me sick seeing the Norwegian boats filling Aberdeen harbour; i doubt if Scotland could even build a boat from scratch now which for a maritime nation is an absolute disgrace.
78

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 13/10/2008 18:00:46
The Unionists have never been so enthused, with their tails in the air, since the present global financial crisis began. I'm just waiting for one of them to write that the demise of the banking system and the collapse of the economy is a price worth paying to preserve the union.
79

Salem,

13/10/2008 18:02:56
# 60 Ronaldo

You could be right, Scotland is a lost cause forever doomed to survive on handouts and independence is a pipe dream, a sentimental notion after a couple of glasses of single malt.

But numbers are only numbers. If decisions were made solely on numbers then there really is no hope.
However you forget the entrepreneurial spirit of enterprise and the need to survive. I cannot believe the ingenuity, the resilience endurance and perseverance, and creativity is lost.

For me it is a question of opportunity.

A way must be found to unlock the potential of the Scottish people by creating the conditions that give them the opportunity to show what they can do on their own.

The best gift the UK could give to Scotland would be independence.

Scale down the handouts over five years and that’s it, you’re on your own to sink or swim by your own devices.

This of course will never happen. The SNP does not have the inspiration to motivate the people to action.

The nats will win a few by elections based on protest votes but if I’m honest with myself independence will continue to be a dream not come true.

Sad actually!

Time to reach for another glass of single malt!
80

sicasapig,

turriff 13/10/2008 18:25:18
Following the problems in the financial sector in the US, uncertainty has now hit Japan.

In the last 7 days the Origami Bank has folded, the Sumo Bank has gone belly up and the Bonsai Bank announced plans to cut some of its branches. Yesterday, it was announced that the Karaoke Bank is up for sale and will likely go for a song, while today's shares in the Kamikaze Bank were suspended after they nose-dived.

While Samurai Bank is soldiering on following sharp cuts, the Ninja Bank is reported to have taken a hit, but they remain in the black. Furthermore, 500 staff at Karate Bank got the chop and analysts report that there is something fishy going on at the Sushi Bank where it is feared that staff may get a raw deal!
81

vimto,

13/10/2008 18:35:10
1. NO, The people of England will own 60% of the RBS
82

Martyk,

13/10/2008 18:37:57
Well at least this series of events at last does away with the delusion that Scotland / Edinburgh is a major international financial centre. No Stock Exchange. No commodities or bond markets. And now the Scots owned financial sector comprises Standard Life and the Dunfermline Building Society. A tragedy.
83

Martyk,

13/10/2008 18:38:45
Sushi Bank is thriving though.
84

IainGlasgow,

13/10/2008 18:44:01
#25

As I've posted on the Herald today, in any independence negotiations, Scotland would be entitled to take 10% of all the shares the UK Government is taking in RBS (assuming it hasn't sold them by then). As well as 10% of the shares it has taken in HBOS, Lloyds TSB, Barclays and Northern Rock.

That could look like a very attractive share portfolio when the dust settles, better regulation is introduced and the share value of these banks recover to a nominal level.

We would be doing away with Nukes but the English government will probably want to keep nuclear defence at least until the existing trident system reaches the end of its shelf life. Their shares in RBS and Lloyds Halifax (assuming the takeover goes through) will probably just about pay for our share of trident. They would probably be looking to offload their bank stocks anyway so negotiation would be pretty straightforward - Alex and Dave could sort it out in the pub over a couple of pints. A win-win situation with the Scottish Government ending up owning 60% of RBS and 40% of Lloyds, England keeping its naval defence framework largely intact.

We only need three or four frigates and a dozen or so coastal protection vessels for customs, fisheries and oilfields - would keep BAE Govan and Ferguson's busy for a decade though.
85

Alan B,

13/10/2008 18:45:27
Britains post war economic management has generally be very poor. It might have got better recently but Brown has squandered much of the improvement by destroying the economic fundamentals.

Scotland is daft to tie itself to a union that simply does not work and has generally performed badly over 60 yrs.
86

vimto,

13/10/2008 18:45:45
82. Dream on, as the events of the last few weeks have shown,scotland is neither capable nor credible to handle such a dire event.
87

vimto,

13/10/2008 18:52:20
89. Scotland is not doing much better! Even with current high oil prices, the income from the Scottish share of North Sea Oil only just covers the spending gap, and North Sea Oil output is projected to fall by 50 per cent by 2020.
88

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/10/2008 19:20:25
7 scotfree
"Reflecting on this with a mere six months of Scotland’s oil revenues being able to purchase the entire British banking sector"

The absurd claims that some people seek to make on these threads never cease to amaze me. We have just seen that £37bn buys about 60% of RBS and 40% of HBOS/Lloyds but none of Barclays and none of Britain's biggest bank HSBC. So £37bn only buys a relatively small part of the UK banking sector with a majority holding in only one bank. According to your assertions, oil revenues must be in the rgion of £200bn per annum. Can you possibly be expected to be taken seriously when you make such assertions. To put this into perspective, total UK oil/gas revenues for last year (2007/08) were £7.8bn - about 4% of the figure thet would make your assertions credible.

Please go and learn something about these issues befor